Re: [Elecraft] K3 Receiver Noise Level -- Evaluation and Adjustment
Short version: put a way to reset to default AGC in the K3 itself. Do this ASAP. Long version: On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: If you feel that the noise level of your K3's receiver is excessive, please try the following: snip 3. Use the factory defaults for AGC. These were carefully chosen to adjust gain in the presence of significant band noise. snip While the advice is official, there is not much point in posting set to factory defaults unless you include what those numbers are in your text. Otherwise the reader has to do the research (Google, site search, thumb manual looking for numbers...) to determine what the factory defaults are. Digging around on the web site, etc, will defeat a lot of readers. Not because your site is trashy (it's not), or the manual is bad (it's not), or K3 users are stupid (they're not), but because in human evolution web-searching was never the reason why one did or didn't live long enough to pass on one's genes to one's children. That and such things as RTFM were not Darwinian criteria. More than that... Human behavior studies in information assimilation on all kinds of us regular folks show over and over that on average humans don't do well at drilling down in information, become quickly bored, tired, irritated, frustrated, confused just to name a few. And while they may doggedly stay with such tasks to keep a job to feed and house the family, teeth-grinding information drilling to find the default numbers does not cut it in our pastime activities. Moreover, even relating to work, studies with competent well-thought-of clerical personnel showed that errors, misreads, no-finds, and nasty remarks increased dramatically with the number of steps to fetch, or with any uncertainty as to the source, appearance or presentation of the needed information. Given the amount of attention, confusion and complaints related to noise and AGC, wouldn't it make sense to identify your default CONFIG:AGCxxx setting numbers with a dEF to the left of the number when VFO A rolls over it, so that when the folks from Mount Aptos say to use the default AGC, that can be easily set and/or confirmed and/or returned to without needing to dig up the numbers somewhere? 73, Guy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Receiver Noise Level -- Evaluation and Adjustment
All one has to do is go to the CONFIG menus, select the parameter, and tap Display and be told what the Default value is for that parameter. It's easy. It takes less than a minute to do all of the AGC parameters. That's pretty short. 73, Ken K3IU On 12/19/2009 12:02 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: Short version: put a way to reset to default AGC in the K3 itself. Do this ASAP. Long version: On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Wayne Burdickn...@elecraft.com wrote: If you feel that the noise level of your K3's receiver is excessive, please try the following: snip 3. Use the factory defaults for AGC. These were carefully chosen to adjust gain in the presence of significant band noise. snip While the advice is official, there is not much point in posting set to factory defaults unless you include what those numbers are in your text. Otherwise the reader has to do the research (Google, site search, thumb manual looking for numbers...) to determine what the factory defaults are. Digging around on the web site, etc, will defeat a lot of readers. Not because your site is trashy (it's not), or the manual is bad (it's not), or K3 users are stupid (they're not), but because in human evolution web-searching was never the reason why one did or didn't live long enough to pass on one's genes to one's children. That and such things as RTFM were not Darwinian criteria. More than that... Human behavior studies in information assimilation on all kinds of us regular folks show over and over that on average humans don't do well at drilling down in information, become quickly bored, tired, irritated, frustrated, confused just to name a few. And while they may doggedly stay with such tasks to keep a job to feed and house the family, teeth-grinding information drilling to find the default numbers does not cut it in our pastime activities. Moreover, even relating to work, studies with competent well-thought-of clerical personnel showed that errors, misreads, no-finds, and nasty remarks increased dramatically with the number of steps to fetch, or with any uncertainty as to the source, appearance or presentation of the needed information. Given the amount of attention, confusion and complaints related to noise and AGC, wouldn't it make sense to identify your default CONFIG:AGCxxx setting numbers with a dEF to the left of the number when VFO A rolls over it, so that when the folks from Mount Aptos say to use the default AGC, that can be easily set and/or confirmed and/or returned to without needing to dig up the numbers somewhere? 73, Guy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Receiver Noise Level -- Evaluation and Adjustment
Sigh Well, I must apologize, and take the flak for letting that neat piece of information get past me. I still have to go find where that is laid out and see what else I'm missing. I *did* go looking around for something that told me what the defaults were before I wrote the post, but whatever it took to find it I didn't have at the moment. The help sentence would be: 3. Set AGC parms to default values in CONFIG: AGC . Tap DISP in each AGC to display nnn default. The human factors guys at work would have said that a stand-alone instruction should not require anything other than the instruction itself to be successful. 73, Guy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 Receiver Noise Level -- Evaluation and Adjustment
The K3 has a lot of overall gain. This is necessary to provide sufficient speaker output in operating locations with high ambient noise levels. But you can adjust the amount of gain, and shape it, to meet your needs. If you feel that the noise level of your K3's receiver is excessive, please try the following: 1. Turn off the preamp. In many cases it is not needed (especially below 20 m), because the receiver is still very sensitive working directly into the mixer. 2. If overall AF gain is higher than needed for your headphones or speaker, set CONFIG:AF GAIN to LOW. This makes the K3's audio output level (and overall gain) very similar to a K2. 3. Use the factory defaults for AGC. These were carefully chosen to adjust gain in the presence of significant band noise. 4. Use narrow filter bandwidths when listening to narrow-band modes (CW or DATA). Noise output is proportional to bandwidth, and in narrow- band modes, reducing WIDTH can dramatically reduce the signal-to-noise ratio. I strongly recommend installing at least one narrow crystal filter (500 Hz or lower) if you use CW or DATA modes. The K3's entire receiver philosophy is built around the use of roofing filters that are matched to the operating mode. 5. Use noise reduction. NR is specifically designed to reduce wideband stochastic (white) noise. I suggest using the lowest setting (F1-1) to obtain a modest noise-reduction benefit with minimum impact on signal characteristics. 6. If you're sensitive to high-pitched noise, consider installing (or having us install) the new DSP low-pass filter (LPF) module. (Contact k3support for details.) This filter rolls off everything at about 4.5 kHz, including some low-level AF sampling artifacts from 10-14 kHz that some operators with excellent ears can hear. The LPF module, which is easy to install, can improve the overall listening experience. It has already been phased into production. 7. If you still feel that noise level is too high, try doing an MDS (minimum-discernable signal) test to see if the receiver is meeting spec. You can use your own signal generator or an Elecraft XG1 or XG2, in conjunction with the K3's built-in true-RMS AF voltmeter (see alternate VFO B display modes in the owner's manual). 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Receiver Noise Level -- Evaluation and Adjustment
Wayne - Could you explain the MDS test in greater detail? My AFV (AGC-S, ATT off, no sub reciever) value bounces all over between 18 and 62, with most values in the mid 20's. Over a 5 minute period, it doesn't stabilize. I don't know what that means. 73, Mike NF4L Wayne Burdick wrote: 7. If you still feel that noise level is too high, try doing an MDS (minimum-discernable signal) test to see if the receiver is meeting spec. You can use your own signal generator or an Elecraft XG1 or XG2, in conjunction with the K3's built-in true-RMS AF voltmeter (see alternate VFO B display modes in the owner's manual). 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Receiver Noise Level -- Evaluation and Adjustment
Wayne Is the low pass filter module available separate from the entire DSP Rev C board replacement? If so, what does it cost and how complicated is it to install? Buck k4ia K3 #101 In a message dated 12/18/2009 10:12:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, n...@elecraft.com writes: The K3 has a lot of overall gain. This is necessary to provide sufficient speaker output in operating locations with high ambient noise levels. But you can adjust the amount of gain, and shape it, to meet your needs. If you feel that the noise level of your K3's receiver is excessive, please try the following: 1. Turn off the preamp. In many cases it is not needed (especially below 20 m), because the receiver is still very sensitive working directly into the mixer. 2. If overall AF gain is higher than needed for your headphones or speaker, set CONFIG:AF GAIN to LOW. This makes the K3's audio output level (and overall gain) very similar to a K2. 3. Use the factory defaults for AGC. These were carefully chosen to adjust gain in the presence of significant band noise. 4. Use narrow filter bandwidths when listening to narrow-band modes (CW or DATA). Noise output is proportional to bandwidth, and in narrow- band modes, reducing WIDTH can dramatically reduce the signal-to-noise ratio. I strongly recommend installing at least one narrow crystal filter (500 Hz or lower) if you use CW or DATA modes. The K3's entire receiver philosophy is built around the use of roofing filters that are matched to the operating mode. 5. Use noise reduction. NR is specifically designed to reduce wideband stochastic (white) noise. I suggest using the lowest setting (F1-1) to obtain a modest noise-reduction benefit with minimum impact on signal characteristics. 6. If you're sensitive to high-pitched noise, consider installing (or having us install) the new DSP low-pass filter (LPF) module. (Contact k3support for details.) This filter rolls off everything at about 4.5 kHz, including some low-level AF sampling artifacts from 10-14 kHz that some operators with excellent ears can hear. The LPF module, which is easy to install, can improve the overall listening experience. It has already been phased into production. 7. If you still feel that noise level is too high, try doing an MDS (minimum-discernable signal) test to see if the receiver is meeting spec. You can use your own signal generator or an Elecraft XG1 or XG2, in conjunction with the K3's built-in true-RMS AF voltmeter (see alternate VFO B display modes in the owner's manual). 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Receiver Noise Level -- Evaluation and Adjustment
I had this same exchange with Eric earlier today ... 1) the LPF board will be available shortly. It is in stock and will added (along with instructions) to the web page soon (I read that as the next day or two). 2) The DSP upgrade now being shipped is Rev D which is Rev C (the low frequency enhancement) plus the LPF board (the ADC spurious elimination filter). I did not get price information on the LPF board but was assured it will be up with the rest of the information. 73, ... Joe, W4TV -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of k...@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 5:11 PM To: n...@elecraft.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Receiver Noise Level -- Evaluation and Adjustment Wayne Is the low pass filter module available separate from the entire DSP Rev C board replacement? If so, what does it cost and how complicated is it to install? Buck k4ia K3 #101 In a message dated 12/18/2009 10:12:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, n...@elecraft.com writes: The K3 has a lot of overall gain. This is necessary to provide sufficient speaker output in operating locations with high ambient noise levels. But you can adjust the amount of gain, and shape it, to meet your needs. If you feel that the noise level of your K3's receiver is excessive, please try the following: 1. Turn off the preamp. In many cases it is not needed (especially below 20 m), because the receiver is still very sensitive working directly into the mixer. 2. If overall AF gain is higher than needed for your headphones or speaker, set CONFIG:AF GAIN to LOW. This makes the K3's audio output level (and overall gain) very similar to a K2. 3. Use the factory defaults for AGC. These were carefully chosen to adjust gain in the presence of significant band noise. 4. Use narrow filter bandwidths when listening to narrow-band modes (CW or DATA). Noise output is proportional to bandwidth, and in narrow- band modes, reducing WIDTH can dramatically reduce the signal-to-noise ratio. I strongly recommend installing at least one narrow crystal filter (500 Hz or lower) if you use CW or DATA modes. The K3's entire receiver philosophy is built around the use of roofing filters that are matched to the operating mode. 5. Use noise reduction. NR is specifically designed to reduce wideband stochastic (white) noise. I suggest using the lowest setting (F1-1) to obtain a modest noise-reduction benefit with minimum impact on signal characteristics. 6. If you're sensitive to high-pitched noise, consider installing (or having us install) the new DSP low-pass filter (LPF) module. (Contact k3support for details.) This filter rolls off everything at about 4.5 kHz, including some low-level AF sampling artifacts from 10-14 kHz that some operators with excellent ears can hear. The LPF module, which is easy to install, can improve the overall listening experience. It has already been phased into production. 7. If you still feel that noise level is too high, try doing an MDS (minimum-discernable signal) test to see if the receiver is meeting spec. You can use your own signal generator or an Elecraft XG1 or XG2, in conjunction with the K3's built-in true-RMS AF voltmeter (see alternate VFO B display modes in the owner's manual). 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Receiver Noise Level -- Evaluation and Adjustment
Splendid news, why obtaining it had to be like pulling teeth I cannot fathom. The noisy RX thread would have dried up before it reached the present head of steam. Regards, Mike VP8NO - Original Message - From: Joe Subich, W4TV li...@subich.com To: k...@aol.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 8:12 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Receiver Noise Level -- Evaluation and Adjustment I had this same exchange with Eric earlier today ... 1) the LPF board will be available shortly. It is in stock and will added (along with instructions) to the web page soon (I read that as the next day or two). 2) The DSP upgrade now being shipped is Rev D which is Rev C (the low frequency enhancement) plus the LPF board (the ADC spurious elimination filter). I did not get price information on the LPF board but was assured it will be up with the rest of the information. 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Receiver Noise Level -- Evaluation and Adjustment
I think the staff at Elecraft is overwhelmed with orders and business as usual. I can understand the workload during this time of year, and I am sure the engineering process skills will improve next year. I would bet their growth is somewhat beyond what they had anticipated. 73, Bill K9YEQ K2 #35; KX1 #35; K3 #1744; mini mods ATS-3B -Original Message- Splendid news, why obtaining it had to be like pulling teeth I cannot fathom. The noisy RX thread would have dried up before it reached the present head of steam. Regards, Mike VP8NO - Original Message - I had this same exchange with Eric earlier today ... 1) the LPF board will be available shortly. It is in stock and will added (along with instructions) to the web page soon (I read that as the next day or two). 2) The DSP upgrade now being shipped is Rev D which is Rev C (the low frequency enhancement) plus the LPF board (the ADC spurious elimination filter). I did not get price information on the LPF board but was assured it will be up with the rest of the information. 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Receiver Noise Level -- Evaluation and Adjustment
I just reread my message and I don't like the meaning of the content. I meant to say that Elecraft is having such a successful year that they may be a bit overwhelmed. The offerings of excellent equipment and attention to detail is excellent. I don't know how they can keep up. But keep it coming. I am an early customer of theirs and can't tell you enough how much I appreciate my enjoyment of the hobby since I came on board, back in '99 was it?? The entire staff is very dedicated. I am sure they will come up with new ways to meet our increasing demands. They always have. So will keep on putting the feedback on the reflector to help them adjust. I love the Elecraft brand. Bill K9YEQ .. I think the staff at Elecraft is overwhelmed with orders and business as usual. I can understand the workload during this time of year, and I am sure the engineering process skills will improve next year. I would bet their growth is somewhat beyond what they had anticipated. 73, Bill K9YEQ K2 #35; KX1 #35; K3 #1744; mini mods ATS-3B -Original Message- Splendid news, why obtaining it had to be like pulling teeth I cannot fathom. The noisy RX thread would have dried up before it reached the present head of steam. Regards, Mike VP8NO - Original Message - I had this same exchange with Eric earlier today ... 1) the LPF board will be available shortly. It is in stock and will added (along with instructions) to the web page soon (I read that as the next day or two). 2) The DSP upgrade now being shipped is Rev D which is Rev C (the low frequency enhancement) plus the LPF board (the ADC spurious elimination filter). I did not get price information on the LPF board but was assured it will be up with the rest of the information. 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Receiver Noise Level -- Evaluation and Adjustment
I just reread my message and I don't like the meaning of the content. I meant to say that Elecraft is having such a successful year that they may be a bit overwhelmed. The offerings of excellent equipment and attention to detail is excellent. I don't know how they can keep up. But keep it coming. I am an early customer of their's and can't tell you how much I appreciate my enjoyment of the hobby since I came on board back in '99I think the staff at Elecraft is overwhelmed with orders and business as usual. I can understand the workload during this time of year, and I am sure the engineering process skills will improve next year. I would bet their growth is somewhat beyond what they had anticipated. 73, Bill K9YEQ K2 #35; KX1 #35; K3 #1744; mini mods ATS-3B -Original Message- Splendid news, why obtaining it had to be like pulling teeth I cannot fathom. The noisy RX thread would have dried up before it reached the present head of steam. Regards, Mike VP8NO - Original Message - I had this same exchange with Eric earlier today ... 1) the LPF board will be available shortly. It is in stock and will added (along with instructions) to the web page soon (I read that as the next day or two). 2) The DSP upgrade now being shipped is Rev D which is Rev C (the low frequency enhancement) plus the LPF board (the ADC spurious elimination filter). I did not get price information on the LPF board but was assured it will be up with the rest of the information. 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
