Re: [Elecraft] K3 on JT-65, ALC varies widely

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

> I set the LINE IN gain to 30 (midrange).

This is generally too high - I run between 10 and 15.


The speaker output is set to 90%,


Are you running the "bare" speaker output to the Line In or
do you have a 10:1 (20 dB) attenuator between the speaker
output and the Line Input?


but there is an amplitude slider in WSJT-X, and I adjusted that to 5
bars of ALC in WSJT Tune mode (constant 1100 Hz tone in this case).


This is the *WORST PLACE* to adjust the level.  Set the WSJT-X slider
to max and make an attenuator with a 10K resistor from the speaker out
to the top of a 1 K pot and connect the wiper of the port to Line IN.
Adjust drive with the pot.


On an external analog wattmeter, I could see the power ramping up on
some of the longer duration tones.


This is a symptom of insufficient audio drive and/or failure to
properly perform Transmitter Gain CAL (in the K3 Utility).

> So then I took an oscilloscope and measured the audio voltage coming
> out of the sound card, and found that each tone has a different
> voltage level coming out of the sound card!  The audio level varies
> all over the place as the CQ goes on.

Contact the WJTS-X development team - their list is:
wsjtgr...@yahoogroups.com


73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 4/17/2017 1:43 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote:

I am working on this some more this morning.

I set the LINE IN gain to 30 (midrange).  The speaker output is set
to 90%, but there is an amplitude slider in WSJT-X, and I adjusted
that to 5 bars of ALC in WSJT Tune mode (constant 1100 Hz tone in
this case).  The K3 is definitely in DATA A mode.

Then I called CQ, and the ALC meter and power output were all over
the place from 0 - 5 on ALC, and 10 Watts to 70 Watts on power
output.  On an external analog wattmeter, I could see the power
ramping up on some of the longer duration tones.

So then I took an oscilloscope and measured the audio voltage coming
out of the sound card, and found that each tone has a different
voltage level coming out of the sound card!  The audio level varies
all over the place as the CQ goes on.  JT-65 is supposed to be
constant amplitude tones of 65 different frequencies, so something is
not working right, either in the WSJT-X program or in my computer.  I
will look into that some more.  It is not a K3 problem.

I am using WSJT-X v. 1.7.0 r7405.  The sound card is an old
Soundblaster Live that works just fine for transmitting WAV and live
microphone on SSB.

Anyway, I am making QSO’s, some of them with signal strength as low
as –25 dB.  I don’t think I am long for this mode anyway.  Life is
too short for 1 Baud communication.

Dave Hachadorian, K6LL Yuma, Arizona







-Original Message- From: Don Wilhelm Sent: Sunday, April 16,
2017 7:41 PM To: Brian Hunt ; Reflector Elecraft Subject: Re:
[Elecraft] K3 on JT-65, ALC varies widely

Brian,

Try this -- set the K3 LINE in gain to somewhere near mid-range, and
 then adjust the soundcard "speaker" slider to give you close to the
4 ALC bars with the 5th bar flashing.  Refine that level with slight
 adjustments to the LINE in gain.

You can use TX TEST while making those adjustments which will not
transmit any RF.

Adjust the desired power output with the power knob.

If you do not achieve the required number of ALC bars, the K3 will
"power hunt" causing significant fluctuations in the output power.

There seems to be a greater number of questions about this "problem"
for users of "JT" software than for other soundcard data modes.  I
don't know why because the "JT" software should be no different than
any other soundcard data mode.  Perhaps the user is trying to follow
the recommendations in the JT mode instructions (I have not looked at
them), but typically data mode instructions are for non-Elecraft
tranceivers and say that the user should set the power to maximum and
use the soundcard audio to adjust the power level.  That does not
work with Elecraft gear which controls power differently than other
amateur transceivers.  For Elecraft transceivers, adjust the audio
level as specified and adjust the desired power with the power knob.
I cannot stress this fact enough.

73, Don W3FPR

On 4/16/2017 9:19 PM, Brian Hunt wrote:

Don't see a problem with making minor adjustments of the Line In
gain during the first transmission. When I adjust the level using
the WSJT TUNE button I usually see the wild fluctuations mentioned.
A small "tweak" to the gain will set right.

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 on JT-65, ALC varies widely

[Dave Hachadorian]

I am working on this some more this morning.

I set the LINE IN gain to 30 (midrange).  The speaker output is set to 90%, but 
there is an amplitude slider in WSJT-X, and I adjusted that to 5 bars of ALC in 
WSJT Tune mode (constant 1100 Hz tone in this case).  The K3 is definitely in 
DATA A mode.

Then I called CQ, and the ALC meter and power output were all over the place 
from 0 - 5 on ALC, and 10 Watts to 70 Watts on power output.  On an external 
analog wattmeter, I could see the power ramping up on some of the longer 
duration tones.

So then I took an oscilloscope and measured the audio voltage coming out of the 
sound card, and found that each tone has a different voltage level coming out 
of the sound card!  The audio level varies all over the place as the CQ goes 
on.  JT-65 is supposed to be constant amplitude tones of 65 different 
frequencies, so something is not working right, either in the WSJT-X program or 
in my computer.  I will look into that some more.  It is not a K3 problem.

I am using WSJT-X v. 1.7.0 r7405.  The sound card is an old Soundblaster Live 
that works just fine for transmitting WAV and live microphone on SSB.

Anyway, I am making QSO’s, some of them with signal strength as low as –25 dB.  
I don’t think I am long for this mode anyway.  Life is too short for 1 Baud 
communication.

Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, Arizona







-Original Message- 
From: Don Wilhelm 
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2017 7:41 PM 
To: Brian Hunt ; Reflector Elecraft 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 on JT-65, ALC varies widely 

Brian,

Try this -- set the K3 LINE in gain to somewhere near mid-range, and 
then adjust the soundcard "speaker" slider to give you close to the 4 
ALC bars with the 5th bar flashing.  Refine that level with slight 
adjustments to the LINE in gain.

You can use TX TEST while making those adjustments which will not 
transmit any RF.

Adjust the desired power output with the power knob.

If you do not achieve the required number of ALC bars, the K3 will 
"power hunt" causing significant fluctuations in the output power.

There seems to be a greater number of questions about this "problem" for 
users of "JT" software than for other soundcard data modes.  I don't 
know why because the "JT" software should be no different than any other 
soundcard data mode.  Perhaps the user is trying to follow the 
recommendations in the JT mode instructions (I have not looked at them), 
but typically data mode instructions are for non-Elecraft tranceivers 
and say that the user should set the power to maximum and use the 
soundcard audio to adjust the power level.  That does not work with 
Elecraft gear which controls power differently than other amateur 
transceivers.  For Elecraft transceivers, adjust the audio level as 
specified and adjust the desired power with the power knob.  I cannot 
stress this fact enough.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/16/2017 9:19 PM, Brian Hunt wrote:
>   Don't see a problem with making minor adjustments of the Line In gain 
> during the first transmission. When I adjust the level using the WSJT TUNE 
> button I usually see the wild fluctuations mentioned. A small "tweak" to the 
> gain will set right.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 on JT-65, ALC varies widely

[Don Wilhelm]

Brian,

Try this -- set the K3 LINE in gain to somewhere near mid-range, and 
then adjust the soundcard "speaker" slider to give you close to the 4 
ALC bars with the 5th bar flashing.  Refine that level with slight 
adjustments to the LINE in gain.


You can use TX TEST while making those adjustments which will not 
transmit any RF.


Adjust the desired power output with the power knob.

If you do not achieve the required number of ALC bars, the K3 will 
"power hunt" causing significant fluctuations in the output power.


There seems to be a greater number of questions about this "problem" for 
users of "JT" software than for other soundcard data modes.  I don't 
know why because the "JT" software should be no different than any other 
soundcard data mode.  Perhaps the user is trying to follow the 
recommendations in the JT mode instructions (I have not looked at them), 
but typically data mode instructions are for non-Elecraft tranceivers 
and say that the user should set the power to maximum and use the 
soundcard audio to adjust the power level.  That does not work with 
Elecraft gear which controls power differently than other amateur 
transceivers.  For Elecraft transceivers, adjust the audio level as 
specified and adjust the desired power with the power knob.  I cannot 
stress this fact enough.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/16/2017 9:19 PM, Brian Hunt wrote:

  Don't see a problem with making minor adjustments of the Line In gain during the first 
transmission. When I adjust the level using the WSJT TUNE button I usually see the wild 
fluctuations mentioned. A small "tweak" to the gain will set right.

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 on JT-65, ALC varies widely

[Brian Hunt]

Oops, that should have been Line OUT gain.
Brian, K0DTJ

On 4/16/2017 18:19, Brian Hunt wrote:

  Don't see a problem with making minor adjustments of the Line In gain during the first 
transmission. When I adjust the level using the WSJT TUNE button I usually see the wild 
fluctuations mentioned. A small "tweak" to the gain will set right.

73,
Brian, K0DTJ
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 on JT-65, ALC varies widely

[Robie Elms]

Joe,

I'll comment on my setup:

1. Lock TX=RX is checked

2. tones are approximately 1500 hz

Robie - AJ4F



On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 1:34 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:

>
> TX ad RX EQ are forced to flat in DATA A (and AFSK A) mode.
>
> What frequency tones (TX  Hz in WSJT-X) are you using?  Is WSJT-X
> in split mode?
>
> If I adjust the audio input *carefully* to 4 bars, I will see the "ALC"
> vary from 3 to 5 bars and the power output will vary between 98 and 102
> Watts (when set for 100 W).  With the audio input adjusted to "4 bars
> with the 5th flickering", I see marginally tighter power control - 99
> to 102 W.  However, in no case is there a significant variation in the
> power output.
>
> The *only time* power output is not as expected is if I am not using
> split mode and trying to transmit with audio tones below 300 Hz or
> above 2500 Hz (outside the DSP bandwidth).
>
> 73,
>
>... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
> On 4/16/2017 8:15 PM, Robie Elms wrote:
>
>> I also see the same behavior as Dave.  I have verified my K3 is in DATA A
>> and the TX Equalization is a flat line.  However,  I routinely make
>> contacts with JT65.  I use WSJT-x v 1.7.0
>>
>> Robie - AJ4F
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 12:10 AM, Walter Underwood > >
>> wrote:
>>
>> TX EQ could cause problems like this if not in DATA A.
>>>
>>> wunder
>>> K6WRU
>>> Walter Underwood
>>> CM87wj
>>> http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)
>>>
>>> On Apr 16, 2017, at 4:52 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:


 Since bars 0-4 represent audio drive level and *not* true ALC when
 in digital mode (DATA A, AFSK A), what you are seeing represents a

>>> significant change in *audio drive level* for the different tones.
>>>

 Are you sure you are using DATA A and not AFSK A with the AFSK
 Filter turned on?  What frequency range are the tones?

 73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


 On 4/16/2017 5:29 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote:

> I just started playing with JT-65 and JT-9 this weekend, and I’ve
>
 already worked a bunch of DX, so it’s basically working ok.
>>>

> Transmitting on JT-65, I see a lot of variation in ALC and power as the
>
 various tones change.  I’m using Data A mode with the stock 2.7
>>> filter.  I
>>> just had a QSO with tone frequencies of about 1800 – 1950 Hz, and ALC
>>> varied from zero to five bars on the different tones.  Sound card output
>>> is
>>> about 50%, and Line In level is at 12.  Is this variation normal, or am I
>>> doing something wrong,  and where should I set the ALC?
>>>

> Thanks.
>
> Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
> Yuma, Arizona
>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 on JT-65, ALC varies widely

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

TX ad RX EQ are forced to flat in DATA A (and AFSK A) mode.

What frequency tones (TX  Hz in WSJT-X) are you using?  Is WSJT-X
in split mode?

If I adjust the audio input *carefully* to 4 bars, I will see the "ALC"
vary from 3 to 5 bars and the power output will vary between 98 and 102
Watts (when set for 100 W).  With the audio input adjusted to "4 bars
with the 5th flickering", I see marginally tighter power control - 99
to 102 W.  However, in no case is there a significant variation in the
power output.

The *only time* power output is not as expected is if I am not using
split mode and trying to transmit with audio tones below 300 Hz or
above 2500 Hz (outside the DSP bandwidth).

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 4/16/2017 8:15 PM, Robie Elms wrote:

I also see the same behavior as Dave.  I have verified my K3 is in DATA A
and the TX Equalization is a flat line.  However,  I routinely make
contacts with JT65.  I use WSJT-x v 1.7.0

Robie - AJ4F

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 12:10 AM, Walter Underwood 
wrote:


TX EQ could cause problems like this if not in DATA A.

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)


On Apr 16, 2017, at 4:52 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:


Since bars 0-4 represent audio drive level and *not* true ALC when
in digital mode (DATA A, AFSK A), what you are seeing represents a

significant change in *audio drive level* for the different tones.


Are you sure you are using DATA A and not AFSK A with the AFSK
Filter turned on?  What frequency range are the tones?

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


On 4/16/2017 5:29 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote:

I just started playing with JT-65 and JT-9 this weekend, and I’ve

already worked a bunch of DX, so it’s basically working ok.


Transmitting on JT-65, I see a lot of variation in ALC and power as the

various tones change.  I’m using Data A mode with the stock 2.7 filter.  I
just had a QSO with tone frequencies of about 1800 – 1950 Hz, and ALC
varied from zero to five bars on the different tones.  Sound card output is
about 50%, and Line In level is at 12.  Is this variation normal, or am I
doing something wrong,  and where should I set the ALC?


Thanks.

Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, Arizona



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 on JT-65, ALC varies widely

[Brian Hunt]

 Don't see a problem with making minor adjustments of the Line In gain during 
the first transmission. When I adjust the level using the WSJT TUNE button I 
usually see the wild fluctuations mentioned. A small "tweak" to the gain will 
set right. 

73,
Brian, K0DTJ
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 on JT-65, ALC varies widely

[Robie Elms]

I also see the same behavior as Dave.  I have verified my K3 is in DATA A
and the TX Equalization is a flat line.  However,  I routinely make
contacts with JT65.  I use WSJT-x v 1.7.0

Robie - AJ4F

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 12:10 AM, Walter Underwood 
wrote:

> TX EQ could cause problems like this if not in DATA A.
>
> wunder
> K6WRU
> Walter Underwood
> CM87wj
> http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)
>
> > On Apr 16, 2017, at 4:52 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:
> >
> >
> > Since bars 0-4 represent audio drive level and *not* true ALC when
> > in digital mode (DATA A, AFSK A), what you are seeing represents a
> significant change in *audio drive level* for the different tones.
> >
> > Are you sure you are using DATA A and not AFSK A with the AFSK
> > Filter turned on?  What frequency range are the tones?
> >
> > 73,
> >
> >   ... Joe, W4TV
> >
> >
> > On 4/16/2017 5:29 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote:
> >> I just started playing with JT-65 and JT-9 this weekend, and I’ve
> already worked a bunch of DX, so it’s basically working ok.
> >>
> >> Transmitting on JT-65, I see a lot of variation in ALC and power as the
> various tones change.  I’m using Data A mode with the stock 2.7 filter.  I
> just had a QSO with tone frequencies of about 1800 – 1950 Hz, and ALC
> varied from zero to five bars on the different tones.  Sound card output is
> about 50%, and Line In level is at 12.  Is this variation normal, or am I
> doing something wrong,  and where should I set the ALC?
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >> Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
> >> Yuma, Arizona
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> __
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 on JT-65, ALC varies widely

[Walter Underwood]

TX EQ could cause problems like this if not in DATA A.

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Apr 16, 2017, at 4:52 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:
> 
> 
> Since bars 0-4 represent audio drive level and *not* true ALC when
> in digital mode (DATA A, AFSK A), what you are seeing represents a 
> significant change in *audio drive level* for the different tones.
> 
> Are you sure you are using DATA A and not AFSK A with the AFSK
> Filter turned on?  What frequency range are the tones?
> 
> 73,
> 
>   ... Joe, W4TV
> 
> 
> On 4/16/2017 5:29 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote:
>> I just started playing with JT-65 and JT-9 this weekend, and I’ve already 
>> worked a bunch of DX, so it’s basically working ok.
>> 
>> Transmitting on JT-65, I see a lot of variation in ALC and power as the 
>> various tones change.  I’m using Data A mode with the stock 2.7 filter.  I 
>> just had a QSO with tone frequencies of about 1800 – 1950 Hz, and ALC varied 
>> from zero to five bars on the different tones.  Sound card output is about 
>> 50%, and Line In level is at 12.  Is this variation normal, or am I doing 
>> something wrong,  and where should I set the ALC?
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
>> Yuma, Arizona
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 on JT-65, ALC varies widely

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Since bars 0-4 represent audio drive level and *not* true ALC when
in digital mode (DATA A, AFSK A), what you are seeing represents a 
significant change in *audio drive level* for the different tones.


Are you sure you are using DATA A and not AFSK A with the AFSK
Filter turned on?  What frequency range are the tones?

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 4/16/2017 5:29 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote:

I just started playing with JT-65 and JT-9 this weekend, and I’ve already 
worked a bunch of DX, so it’s basically working ok.

Transmitting on JT-65, I see a lot of variation in ALC and power as the various 
tones change.  I’m using Data A mode with the stock 2.7 filter.  I just had a 
QSO with tone frequencies of about 1800 – 1950 Hz, and ALC varied from zero to 
five bars on the different tones.  Sound card output is about 50%, and Line In 
level is at 12.  Is this variation normal, or am I doing something wrong,  and 
where should I set the ALC?

Thanks.

Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, Arizona



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 on JT-65, ALC varies widely

[Jim Brown]

Hi Dave,

What you're seeing is fairly normal for your setup. The 2.7 kHz 5-pole 
filter is not as flat as the 2.8 kHz 7-pole filter, which I noticed on 
RTTY. I subsequently switched to 7-pole filters (but not in the Sub-RX). 
A JT65 signal is about 220 Hz wide, so when you get near the top of the 
audio bandpass, you also run into the slope of that filter. As with all 
other data modes transmitted by audio, 4-5 bars flashing is optimum.


There's another trick that the latest WSJT-X plays to minimize audio 
harmonics that result from overdriving in the audio chain. If you allow 
WSJT-X to do so, they will automatically put you in split mode, with an 
offset that puts the second harmonic outside the passband of the TX filter.


My recommendations for setting audio levels is here. it follows the 
discussion of USB interfaces. http://k9yc.com/USB_Interfaces.pdf  The 
reason I recommend setting computer sound cards 6-10 dB below audio clip 
is that their percent distortion often rises by 10 dB in that last 6 dB 
of output level. On a vintage Thinkpad, I measured -30 dB second 
harmonic relative to fundamental just below clip and  and -40 dB below 
fundamental with the output reduced by 6 dB.


One update to my "rule of thumb" about whether you need a better 
interface is that, thanks to decoding improvements in the latest version 
of WSJT-X, you should occasionally see good decodes in the range of -26 
to -28 for JT65. And a caution -- while second pass decoding often finds 
a second station on nearly the same frequency as one decoded on the 
first pass, roughly 5% of the time a second pass decode may be bogus.


73, Jim K9YC


On Sun,4/16/2017 2:29 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote:

Transmitting on JT-65, I see a lot of variation in ALC and power as the various 
tones change.  I’m using Data A mode with the stock 2.7 filter.  I just had a 
QSO with tone frequencies of about 1800 – 1950 Hz, and ALC varied from zero to 
five bars on the different tones.  Sound card output is about 50%, and Line In 
level is at 12.  Is this variation normal, or am I doing something wrong,  and 
where should I set the ALC?



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[Elecraft] K3 on JT-65, ALC varies widely

[Dave Hachadorian]

I just started playing with JT-65 and JT-9 this weekend, and I’ve already 
worked a bunch of DX, so it’s basically working ok.

Transmitting on JT-65, I see a lot of variation in ALC and power as the various 
tones change.  I’m using Data A mode with the stock 2.7 filter.  I just had a 
QSO with tone frequencies of about 1800 – 1950 Hz, and ALC varied from zero to 
five bars on the different tones.  Sound card output is about 50%, and Line In 
level is at 12.  Is this variation normal, or am I doing something wrong,  and 
where should I set the ALC?

Thanks.

Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, Arizona



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