Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 charger question

[Howard Hoyt]

Great thread,

All who are interested in the KX series Elecraft gear should subscribe 
to the elecraft...@groups.io group where KX series gear is discussed 
exclusively.  When Wayne isn't debugging K4 firmware he also often posts 
there!


Cheers & 73,
Howie / WA4PSC

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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 charger question

[Walter Underwood]

Nice analysis. For Eneloop Pro batteries, with 2550 mAh capacity,
that would be 21% of capacity for the clock plus 15% for self-discharge.

Of course, whenever the KX3 is connected to “shore power”, that is 
used instead of the battery.

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Oct 6, 2021, at 9:00 AM, Jon Poland  wrote:
> 
> I opened my KX3 and measured the current draw on my internal Eneloop
> batteries while the radio is off.  That current is 60 microamps.  At that
> rate, my 2000mAh batteries will  completely drain in roughly 3 years, 9
> months.
> 
> Looking at it from a different angle:  After 1 year, a fully charged set of
> batteries will have drained to ~60-65% capacity, ~10% from internal
> leakage + ~27% from the KX3 load.
> 
> Jon N0WL
> 
> On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 10:16 PM Eddy - k6sdw  wrote:
> 
>> I have a KX3 with the KXBC3 Nimh charger and Nimh batteries installed. My
>> question is: What's the current drain on the NICADS when I store the KX3
>> for long periods of time? The KX3 is primarily used for portable operation
>> and when I put the KX3 on the bench the batteries are dead needing
>> recharging. I wonder if I should pull on AA battery out during storage?
>> 
>> Many thanks
>> 
>> GL/73
>> 
>> Ed/k6sdw
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 charger question

[Jon Poland]

I opened my KX3 and measured the current draw on my internal Eneloop
batteries while the radio is off.  That current is 60 microamps.  At that
rate, my 2000mAh batteries will  completely drain in roughly 3 years, 9
months.

Looking at it from a different angle:  After 1 year, a fully charged set of
batteries will have drained to ~60-65% capacity, ~10% from internal
leakage + ~27% from the KX3 load.

Jon N0WL

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 10:16 PM Eddy - k6sdw  wrote:

>  I have a KX3 with the KXBC3 Nimh charger and Nimh batteries installed. My
> question is: What's the current drain on the NICADS when I store the KX3
> for long periods of time? The KX3 is primarily used for portable operation
> and when I put the KX3 on the bench the batteries are dead needing
> recharging. I wonder if I should pull on AA battery out during storage?
>
> Many thanks
>
> GL/73
>
> Ed/k6sdw
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 charger question

[Eric Norris]

I dunno about smoke detector batts, BUT--in my extensive tests with
rechargeable v. non-rechargeable CR123A batts for Arlo cameras, the
non-rechargeable ones last twice as long.  I hate to generate the excess
waste, but hauling my degraded carcass up a ladder twice as often while
alone and afraid :-) isn't worth it any more.

73 Eric WD6DBM

On Tue, Oct 5, 2021, 1:22 PM jerry  wrote:

> I have a related questions about batteries discharging... Not really
> about ham radio, all please feel free
> to delete...
>
>We have a *lot* of smoke detectors.  They are the kind that runs off
> the AC, but each one has a backup
> battery.  The other day, one started beeping...and beeping...and
> beeping.  That momentary beep that says
> "change my battery!".
>
>   Amazon couldn't get me batteries the same day.  And the beeping makes
> it hard to sleep.  So I went to the garage
>   and got one of a set of rechargeable lithium 9V
> rectangulars that I had bought for test equipment - DMMs and such.
>
>The old battery in the smoke detector was 7.88V.  The lithium - 9.4.
> Installed it...and no beeps!
>
>It's tempting to just load all the detectors with lithiums.  The
> alkalines last a couple years.  Maybe a fully-charged
> lithium would last as long... and then you recharge it?  If so, they'd
> be a good deal.  If OTOH they only last a couple months,
> that's NOT a good deal, because I'd have to get out the ladder etc every
> time.
>
>??
> - Jerry KF6VB
>
>
>
>
> On 2021-10-05 11:08, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> > Eddy,
> >
> > The most likely answer is that your batteries are self discharging.
> > NiMH batteries will do that, although there are low self discharge
> > batteries available that you should look into.
> >
> > 73,
> > Don W3FPR
> >
> > On 10/4/2021 11:14 PM, Eddy - k6sdw wrote:
> >>   I have a KX3 with the KXBC3 Nimh charger and Nimh batteries
> >> installed. My
> >> question is: What's the current drain on the NICADS when I store the
> >> KX3
> >> for long periods of time? The KX3 is primarily used for portable
> >> operation
> >> and when I put the KX3 on the bench the batteries are dead needing
> >> recharging. I wonder if I should pull on AA battery out during
> >> storage?
> >>
> >>
> >
> > __
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 charger question

[Josh Fiden]

You’re supposed to replace the smoke detectors every 10 years because they lose 
sensitivity. In my experience, 9v alkalines in the AC powered models last 
nearly that long. I assume it’s just the shelf life of the battery. 

73
Josh W6XU

Sent from my mobile device

> On Oct 5, 2021, at 1:22 PM, jerry  wrote:
> 
> I have a related questions about batteries discharging... Not really about 
> ham radio, all please feel free
> to delete...
> 
>  We have a *lot* of smoke detectors.  They are the kind that runs off the AC, 
> but each one has a backup
> battery.  The other day, one started beeping...and beeping...and beeping.  
> That momentary beep that says
> "change my battery!".
> 
> Amazon couldn't get me batteries the same day.  And the beeping makes it hard 
> to sleep.  So I went to the garage
> and got one of a set of rechargeable lithium 9V
> rectangulars that I had bought for test equipment - DMMs and such.
> 
>  The old battery in the smoke detector was 7.88V.  The lithium - 9.4.  
> Installed it...and no beeps!
> 
>  It's tempting to just load all the detectors with lithiums.  The alkalines 
> last a couple years.  Maybe a fully-charged
> lithium would last as long... and then you recharge it?  If so, they'd be a 
> good deal.  If OTOH they only last a couple months,
> that's NOT a good deal, because I'd have to get out the ladder etc every time.
> 
>  ??
>   - Jerry KF6VB

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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 charger question

[Mike Short]

Get regular 9v batteries and change them when you set your clocks to/from
daylight savings time

On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 16:07 Julia Tuttle  wrote:

> I'm using Energizer Ultimate Lithium batteries in my smoke detectors and so
> far they seem to last a long time.
>
> One risk is that their discharge curve is higher and flatter than alkaline
> and then drops precipitously at the end of their lifetime. Fortunately
> yours are hard-wired, so they should still be able to warn you.
>
> I'd say just try it and see how long it lasts -- surely batteries vary in
> shelf life and detectors vary in current draw.
>
> 73,
>
> Julie
>
> On Tue, Oct 5, 2021, 16:22 jerry  wrote:
>
> > I have a related questions about batteries discharging... Not really
> > about ham radio, all please feel free
> > to delete...
> >
> >We have a *lot* of smoke detectors.  They are the kind that runs off
> > the AC, but each one has a backup
> > battery.  The other day, one started beeping...and beeping...and
> > beeping.  That momentary beep that says
> > "change my battery!".
> >
> >   Amazon couldn't get me batteries the same day.  And the beeping makes
> > it hard to sleep.  So I went to the garage
> >   and got one of a set of rechargeable lithium 9V
> > rectangulars that I had bought for test equipment - DMMs and such.
> >
> >The old battery in the smoke detector was 7.88V.  The lithium - 9.4.
> > Installed it...and no beeps!
> >
> >It's tempting to just load all the detectors with lithiums.  The
> > alkalines last a couple years.  Maybe a fully-charged
> > lithium would last as long... and then you recharge it?  If so, they'd
> > be a good deal.  If OTOH they only last a couple months,
> > that's NOT a good deal, because I'd have to get out the ladder etc every
> > time.
> >
> >??
> > - Jerry KF6VB
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2021-10-05 11:08, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> > > Eddy,
> > >
> > > The most likely answer is that your batteries are self discharging.
> > > NiMH batteries will do that, although there are low self discharge
> > > batteries available that you should look into.
> > >
> > > 73,
> > > Don W3FPR
> > >
> > > On 10/4/2021 11:14 PM, Eddy - k6sdw wrote:
> > >>   I have a KX3 with the KXBC3 Nimh charger and Nimh batteries
> > >> installed. My
> > >> question is: What's the current drain on the NICADS when I store the
> > >> KX3
> > >> for long periods of time? The KX3 is primarily used for portable
> > >> operation
> > >> and when I put the KX3 on the bench the batteries are dead needing
> > >> recharging. I wonder if I should pull on AA battery out during
> > >> storage?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > __
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 charger question

[Julia Tuttle]

I'm using Energizer Ultimate Lithium batteries in my smoke detectors and so
far they seem to last a long time.

One risk is that their discharge curve is higher and flatter than alkaline
and then drops precipitously at the end of their lifetime. Fortunately
yours are hard-wired, so they should still be able to warn you.

I'd say just try it and see how long it lasts -- surely batteries vary in
shelf life and detectors vary in current draw.

73,

Julie

On Tue, Oct 5, 2021, 16:22 jerry  wrote:

> I have a related questions about batteries discharging... Not really
> about ham radio, all please feel free
> to delete...
>
>We have a *lot* of smoke detectors.  They are the kind that runs off
> the AC, but each one has a backup
> battery.  The other day, one started beeping...and beeping...and
> beeping.  That momentary beep that says
> "change my battery!".
>
>   Amazon couldn't get me batteries the same day.  And the beeping makes
> it hard to sleep.  So I went to the garage
>   and got one of a set of rechargeable lithium 9V
> rectangulars that I had bought for test equipment - DMMs and such.
>
>The old battery in the smoke detector was 7.88V.  The lithium - 9.4.
> Installed it...and no beeps!
>
>It's tempting to just load all the detectors with lithiums.  The
> alkalines last a couple years.  Maybe a fully-charged
> lithium would last as long... and then you recharge it?  If so, they'd
> be a good deal.  If OTOH they only last a couple months,
> that's NOT a good deal, because I'd have to get out the ladder etc every
> time.
>
>??
> - Jerry KF6VB
>
>
>
>
> On 2021-10-05 11:08, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> > Eddy,
> >
> > The most likely answer is that your batteries are self discharging.
> > NiMH batteries will do that, although there are low self discharge
> > batteries available that you should look into.
> >
> > 73,
> > Don W3FPR
> >
> > On 10/4/2021 11:14 PM, Eddy - k6sdw wrote:
> >>   I have a KX3 with the KXBC3 Nimh charger and Nimh batteries
> >> installed. My
> >> question is: What's the current drain on the NICADS when I store the
> >> KX3
> >> for long periods of time? The KX3 is primarily used for portable
> >> operation
> >> and when I put the KX3 on the bench the batteries are dead needing
> >> recharging. I wonder if I should pull on AA battery out during
> >> storage?
> >>
> >>
> >
> > __
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 charger question

[jerry]

I have a related questions about batteries discharging... Not really 
about ham radio, all please feel free

to delete...

  We have a *lot* of smoke detectors.  They are the kind that runs off 
the AC, but each one has a backup
battery.  The other day, one started beeping...and beeping...and 
beeping.  That momentary beep that says

"change my battery!".

 Amazon couldn't get me batteries the same day.  And the beeping makes 
it hard to sleep.  So I went to the garage

 and got one of a set of rechargeable lithium 9V
rectangulars that I had bought for test equipment - DMMs and such.

  The old battery in the smoke detector was 7.88V.  The lithium - 9.4.  
Installed it...and no beeps!


  It's tempting to just load all the detectors with lithiums.  The 
alkalines last a couple years.  Maybe a fully-charged
lithium would last as long... and then you recharge it?  If so, they'd 
be a good deal.  If OTOH they only last a couple months,
that's NOT a good deal, because I'd have to get out the ladder etc every 
time.


  ??
   - Jerry KF6VB




On 2021-10-05 11:08, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Eddy,

The most likely answer is that your batteries are self discharging. 
NiMH batteries will do that, although there are low self discharge
batteries available that you should look into.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/4/2021 11:14 PM, Eddy - k6sdw wrote:
  I have a KX3 with the KXBC3 Nimh charger and Nimh batteries 
installed. My
question is: What's the current drain on the NICADS when I store the 
KX3
for long periods of time? The KX3 is primarily used for portable 
operation

and when I put the KX3 on the bench the batteries are dead needing
recharging. I wonder if I should pull on AA battery out during 
storage?





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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 charger question

[Gwen Patton]

Ah, sorry about that, I saw the all caps and that pulled my attention from
the lower case nimh.

I used to keep Eneloop Pro NIMH batteries in my KX3, until I had a problem
updating the firmware. It got into a stuck condition where the radio
wouldn't allow another firmware upload unless the power was totally
disconnected for a short period of time. It kept automatically switching to
batteries, not allowing the error condition to clear.

I solved it by removing the batteries. I have good external battery power,
and I usually leave it on external power. I think those Eneloops are in my
electric saxophone now.

73,
Gwen, NG3P

On Tue, Oct 5, 2021, 11:58 AM Raymond Sills  wrote:

> I think he made a typo... he said in the first sentence that he had NiMH
> cells installed.  But, maybe he meant Nicad.  As usual, we all need to read
> the fine manual.
>
> I recall Wayne mentioning that NiMH cells can tolerate a long recharge
> setting, so you don't have to worry about overcharging them.  I use Eneloop
> cells, and they work just fine.
>
> 73 de Ray
> K2ULR
> KX3 #211
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Gwen Patton 
> To: Elecraft 
> Sent: Tue, Oct 5, 2021 12:25 am
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 charger question
>
> Docs call for Nickel Metal Hydride batteries, not Nickel Cadmium. I don't
> think the internal charger is designed for NICAD batteries. Unless you're
> using a separate charger?
>
> 73,
> Gwen, NG3P
>
> On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 11:16 PM Eddy - k6sdw  wrote:
>
> >  I have a KX3 with the KXBC3 Nimh charger and Nimh batteries installed.
> My
> > question is: What's the current drain on the NICADS when I store the KX3
> > for long periods of time? The KX3 is primarily used for portable
> operation
> > and when I put the KX3 on the bench the batteries are dead needing
> > recharging. I wonder if I should pull on AA battery out during storage?
> >
> > Many thanks
> >
> > GL/73
> >
> > Ed/k6sdw
> > __
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> >
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 charger question

[Don Wilhelm]

Eddy,

The most likely answer is that your batteries are self discharging.  
NiMH batteries will do that, although there are low self discharge 
batteries available that you should look into.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/4/2021 11:14 PM, Eddy - k6sdw wrote:

  I have a KX3 with the KXBC3 Nimh charger and Nimh batteries installed. My
question is: What's the current drain on the NICADS when I store the KX3
for long periods of time? The KX3 is primarily used for portable operation
and when I put the KX3 on the bench the batteries are dead needing
recharging. I wonder if I should pull on AA battery out during storage?




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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 charger question

[Walter Underwood]

From the instructions:

"Only a few microamperes of current are required to keep the clock running when 
the KX3 is off. This is supplied by either the external power supply or the 
internal batteries.”

https://ftp.elecraft.com/KX3/Manuals%20Downloads/E740167%20Elecraft%20KXBC3%20Installation%20and%20Operation%20Rev%20B1.pdf
 


The self-discharge of NiMH batteries will probably be higher than the clock 
current.

What kind of batteries? Eneloop Pro batteries are low self-discharge, with 85% 
of charge after one year of storage. High-capacity NiMH batteries (often 2700 
mAh or higher) can have higher self-discharge rates. 

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Oct 4, 2021, at 9:25 PM, Gwen Patton  wrote:
> 
> Docs call for Nickel Metal Hydride batteries, not Nickel Cadmium. I don't
> think the internal charger is designed for NICAD batteries. Unless you're
> using a separate charger?
> 
> 73,
> Gwen, NG3P
> 
> On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 11:16 PM Eddy - k6sdw  wrote:
> 
>> I have a KX3 with the KXBC3 Nimh charger and Nimh batteries installed. My
>> question is: What's the current drain on the NICADS when I store the KX3
>> for long periods of time? The KX3 is primarily used for portable operation
>> and when I put the KX3 on the bench the batteries are dead needing
>> recharging. I wonder if I should pull on AA battery out during storage?
>> 
>> Many thanks
>> 
>> GL/73
>> 
>> Ed/k6sdw
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Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 charger question

[Gwen Patton]

Docs call for Nickel Metal Hydride batteries, not Nickel Cadmium. I don't
think the internal charger is designed for NICAD batteries. Unless you're
using a separate charger?

73,
Gwen, NG3P

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 11:16 PM Eddy - k6sdw  wrote:

>  I have a KX3 with the KXBC3 Nimh charger and Nimh batteries installed. My
> question is: What's the current drain on the NICADS when I store the KX3
> for long periods of time? The KX3 is primarily used for portable operation
> and when I put the KX3 on the bench the batteries are dead needing
> recharging. I wonder if I should pull on AA battery out during storage?
>
> Many thanks
>
> GL/73
>
> Ed/k6sdw
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to ard...@gmail.com
>
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[Elecraft] KXBC3 charger question

[Eddy - k6sdw]

 I have a KX3 with the KXBC3 Nimh charger and Nimh batteries installed. My
question is: What's the current drain on the NICADS when I store the KX3
for long periods of time? The KX3 is primarily used for portable operation
and when I put the KX3 on the bench the batteries are dead needing
recharging. I wonder if I should pull on AA battery out during storage?

Many thanks

GL/73

Ed/k6sdw
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