Re: [Elecraft] Looking for a way to switch an antenna input to the KAT500

[j...@kk9a.com]

W2VJN and N3RD from Top Ten Devices are great helpful guys. I have been
using their band decoders for decades and we have both operated from the
same station in St Croix. I also have a Top Ten 6 way antenna relay box
that I only use only on contest expeditions with a single radio. It is
small, light weight and easily fits in my suitcase. This is not a
heavy-duty relay, you cannot run legal limit RTTY though it. Also the
SO-239 center connectors are recessed which might cause an issue with some
crimped PL-259's.  To use their relays for an SO2R station would require a
lot of relay boxes and they claim isolation >40dB. For me a single 2 x 6
box is a better choice, Array Solutions SixPak claims >55dB which Jim
confirmed.

John KK9A


Jim Brown K9YC wrote:
On 2/17/2019 6:26 PM, Randy Farmer wrote:
> I concur with the comments on the Top Ten 2-way switches. I'm using
> about 10 of them at various places in my SO2R contest station antenna
> and BPF switching networks. They work well and have good isolation. I

On the basis of my measurements with a Vector Network Analyzer, I am NOT
impressed with these switches, and consider them poorly designed. The
major design flaw is that they depend upon the chassis for signal
return, so the signal path gets increasingly badly mismatched at 15M and
above. I didn't measure crosstalk, but this design error would certainly
impact it. I reduced the mismatch by about half by adding braid from the
coax connectors to the circuit board and following (as best I could) the
signal path to provide a return. Why? Because the "ground" layer is
broken under the top layer, so it can't act as a return either!

Someone cited 50 dB as "good isolation." When I replaced my WX0B 6x2, I
measured isolation of about 55 dB. The replacement, a 4O3A 6x2, measured
75 dB worst case. And other one I'm using now, the 4O3A Antenna Genius,
measures better than 95 dB worst case.

If you look inside a well designed power amp, you'll see transmission
line running from input and output for both TX and RX path. My Ten Tec
Titans were built that way, and so is the KPA500. You'll also see
mini-coax jumpers tying sections of the K3 together.

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Looking for a way to switch an antenna input to the KAT500

[Randy Farmer]

Yup, I did specify "good", not "great" isolation for the Top Ten 
switches. I'm aware of their limitations. I agree that it's always 
desirable to have 70+ dB port-to-port isolation if you can get it (and 
afford it), but depending on the application it's certainly not always 
necessary. During the phase of my career when I was involved in cellular 
base station RF system design, in which performance was always balanced 
with cost (and guess which one won if push came to shove), I learned to 
do balanced designs that made sure no component was over-specified. This 
experience has carried through to my HF station design.


In my particular case, I'm switching TX bandpass filters that supplement 
the main BPF at the output of the radio to suppress harmonics and noise 
from the amplifier. There's a pair of the Top Ten 2-ways at the input 
and output ports of the TX BPF bank that lets me share a single bank of 
filters between two radios. The filter banks are switched by a 2X6 
switch matrix at each end that has around 60 dB port-to-port isolation. 
The bandpass filters themselves have about 80 dB worst case adjacent 
band isolation, so assuming the I/O switches each have 60 dB or so of 
isolation, that's theoretically -120 dB leakage contributed by the 
selector switches. This leakage is thus about 40 dB down from the worst 
case BPF rejection, therefore negligible.Even if the total switch 
isolation were only 80dB, this would mean the additional power 
contributed from switch leakage would increase the total coupling (and 
therefore decrease the isolation) by only 3 dB. The 2-way switches are 
used to either enable the TX filter bank for the contest bands or bypass 
it for the WARC bands. So putting a 2-way switch with mediocre isolation 
on each I/O port of the selector switches has no effect on system 
performance in the contest bands. Actually, even though the whole 
network is wired with LMR-240 the coax shielding is probably the 
limiting factor for total station-to-station isolation anyhow. I agree 
that there are places where excellent isolation is required, and should 
be specified. Like you, I used to use a WX0B SixPak, but many years ago 
I replaced with a microHAM Double Ten switch, which has isolation 
similar to the 4O3A switch, for this reason.


As for VSWR effects, I've learned long ago that attempting to make 
complex RF systems involving filters and multiple switching points over 
the almost 4 octaves of the HF to 6 meter range look like 50 + j0 on 
every band is an essentially impossible endeavor. Fortunately, 
well-designed transmitters these days are not overly sensitive to 
moderate VSWR loads; as long as there's not a really bad mismatch 
somewhere in the system they should take normal mismatches in stride.


The OP was inquiring about switches that are suitable to switch multiple 
radios to one amplifier input, which implies that only one radio at a 
time will be active. For that the Top Ten switches are plenty good enough.


73...
Randy, W8FN

On 2/17/2019 8:57 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 2/17/2019 6:26 PM, Randy Farmer wrote:
I concur with the comments on the Top Ten 2-way switches. I'm using 
about 10 of them at various places in my SO2R contest station antenna 
and BPF switching networks. They work well and have good isolation. I


On the basis of my measurements with a Vector Network Analyzer, I am 
NOT impressed with these switches, and consider them poorly designed. 
The major design flaw is that they depend upon the chassis for signal 
return, so the signal path gets increasingly badly mismatched at 15M 
and above. I didn't measure crosstalk, but this design error would 
certainly impact it. I reduced the mismatch by about half by adding 
braid from the coax connectors to the circuit board and following (as 
best I could) the signal path to provide a return. Why? Because the 
"ground" layer is broken under the top layer, so it can't act as a 
return either!


Someone cited 50 dB as "good isolation." When I replaced my WX0B 6x2, 
I measured isolation of about 55 dB. The replacement, a 4O3A 6x2, 
measured 75 dB worst case. And other one I'm using now, the 4O3A 
Antenna Genius, measures better than 95 dB worst case.


If you look inside a well designed power amp, you'll see transmission 
line running from input and output for both TX and RX path. My Ten Tec 
Titans were built that way, and so is the KPA500. You'll also see 
mini-coax jumpers tying sections of the K3 together.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] Looking for a way to switch an antenna input to the KAT500

[Jim Brown]

On 2/17/2019 6:26 PM, Randy Farmer wrote:
I concur with the comments on the Top Ten 2-way switches. I'm using 
about 10 of them at various places in my SO2R contest station antenna 
and BPF switching networks. They work well and have good isolation. I


On the basis of my measurements with a Vector Network Analyzer, I am NOT 
impressed with these switches, and consider them poorly designed. The 
major design flaw is that they depend upon the chassis for signal 
return, so the signal path gets increasingly badly mismatched at 15M and 
above. I didn't measure crosstalk, but this design error would certainly 
impact it. I reduced the mismatch by about half by adding braid from the 
coax connectors to the circuit board and following (as best I could) the 
signal path to provide a return. Why? Because the "ground" layer is 
broken under the top layer, so it can't act as a return either!


Someone cited 50 dB as "good isolation." When I replaced my WX0B 6x2, I 
measured isolation of about 55 dB. The replacement, a 4O3A 6x2, measured 
75 dB worst case. And other one I'm using now, the 4O3A Antenna Genius, 
measures better than 95 dB worst case.


If you look inside a well designed power amp, you'll see transmission 
line running from input and output for both TX and RX path. My Ten Tec 
Titans were built that way, and so is the KPA500. You'll also see 
mini-coax jumpers tying sections of the K3 together.


73, Jim K9YC

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[Elecraft] Looking for a way to switch an antenna input to the KAT500

[john]

The Top Ten box just has relays connecting between the input and one of six
outputs. There is no reason that you could not use it in reverse, six radios
driving one antenna. I use Top Ten relay on my expeditions automatically
controlled by their band decoder which is connected to my K3S.

John KK9A


Tom elecraft.list at videotron.ca 


Hi,

Yes this looks interesting as does the ones from Dewey. It seems that top
ten devices also has a 6 antenna to 1 radio switch.  Anyone know if it can
operate the other way around? 6 radios to one antenna (kat500)?

73 Tom

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Re: [Elecraft] Looking for a way to switch an antenna input to the KAT500

[Randy Farmer]

I concur with the comments on the Top Ten 2-way switches. I'm using 
about 10 of them at various places in my SO2R contest station antenna 
and BPF switching networks. They work well and have good isolation. I'm 
also using a 6-way for RX antenna switching. It's simply one port 
switched to one of six, so it will work just fine either way. RF doesn't 
care which way it goes through relays. A nice benefit of the Top Ten 
switches is that they're internally interlocked, so it's electrically 
impossible to select more than one port-to-port configuration at a time.


73...
Randy, W8FN

On 2/17/2019 6:55 PM, Tom wrote:

Hi,

Yes this looks interesting as does the ones from Dewey. It seems that top
ten devices also has a 6 antenna to 1 radio switch.  Anyone know if it can
operate the other way around? 6 radios to one antenna (kat500)?

73 Tom

  


From: John Simmons 
Sent: February 17, 2019 5:10 PM
To: Jack Brindle 
Cc: Tom ; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Looking for a way to switch an antenna input to the
KAT500

  


Jack,

Thanks for bringing this to my attention... it is just what I have been
looking for to switch between my main and remote operated stations!

73,
-John NI0K




Jack Brindle via Elecraft 

Sunday, February 17, 2019 3:59 PM

TopTen has a nice A/B switch with pretty good isolation characteristics.
See: https://toptendevices.com/products/ab-station-selector/


It requires a 12V signal for switching, I believe.

Array Solutions also sells some devices that may be of interest.

73!
Jack, W6fB


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Tom 

Sunday, February 17, 2019 2:30 PM

Hi,
I use a Kat500 with my K3 and KX3. However, I have a number of other radios
which I would like to use with the Kat500. So I'm looking for a antenna
switch that can change inputs in some way based on an electronic signal. The
signal can be via serial device, or network doesn't matter. Anyone know of
such a programmable switch?
Thanks, Tom
Va2fsq.com

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net

 
On Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
Sent: February 17, 2019 3:06 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Coax Switches

Smart man and decisions and the way to do things correctly. Glad to see
this.

73

Bob, K4TAX


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Re: [Elecraft] Looking for a way to switch an antenna input to the KAT500

[Tom]

Hi,

Yes this looks interesting as does the ones from Dewey. It seems that top
ten devices also has a 6 antenna to 1 radio switch.  Anyone know if it can
operate the other way around? 6 radios to one antenna (kat500)?

73 Tom

 

From: John Simmons  
Sent: February 17, 2019 5:10 PM
To: Jack Brindle 
Cc: Tom ; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Looking for a way to switch an antenna input to the
KAT500

 

Jack,

Thanks for bringing this to my attention... it is just what I have been
looking for to switch between my main and remote operated stations!

73,
-John NI0K




Jack Brindle via Elecraft  

Sunday, February 17, 2019 3:59 PM

TopTen has a nice A/B switch with pretty good isolation characteristics.
See: https://toptendevices.com/products/ab-station-selector/


It requires a 12V signal for switching, I believe.

Array Solutions also sells some devices that may be of interest.

73!
Jack, W6fB


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Tom  

Sunday, February 17, 2019 2:30 PM

Hi,
I use a Kat500 with my K3 and KX3. However, I have a number of other radios
which I would like to use with the Kat500. So I'm looking for a antenna
switch that can change inputs in some way based on an electronic signal. The
signal can be via serial device, or network doesn't matter. Anyone know of
such a programmable switch? 
Thanks, Tom
Va2fsq.com

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net

 
On Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
Sent: February 17, 2019 3:06 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net  
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Coax Switches

Smart man and decisions and the way to do things correctly. Glad to see
this.

73

Bob, K4TAX


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Re: [Elecraft] Looking for a way to switch an antenna input to the KAT500

[John Simmons]

Jack,

Thanks for bringing this to my attention... it is just what I have been 
looking for to switch between my main and remote operated stations!


73,
-John NI0K


Jack Brindle via Elecraft 
Sunday, February 17, 2019 3:59 PM
TopTen has a nice A/B switch with pretty good isolation 
characteristics. See: 
https://toptendevices.com/products/ab-station-selector/ 


It requires a 12V signal for switching, I believe.

Array Solutions also sells some devices that may be of interest.

73!
Jack, W6fB


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Tom 
Sunday, February 17, 2019 2:30 PM
Hi,
I use a Kat500 with my K3 and KX3. However, I have a number of other 
radios which I would like to use with the Kat500. So I'm looking for a 
antenna switch that can change inputs in some way based on an 
electronic signal. The signal can be via serial device, or network 
doesn't matter. Anyone know of such a programmable switch?

Thanks, Tom
Va2fsq.com

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
 On Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX

Sent: February 17, 2019 3:06 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Coax Switches

Smart man and decisions and the way to do things correctly. Glad to 
see this.


73

Bob, K4TAX


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Re: [Elecraft] Looking for a way to switch an antenna input to the KAT500

[Jack Brindle via Elecraft]

TopTen has a nice A/B switch with pretty good isolation characteristics. See: 
https://toptendevices.com/products/ab-station-selector/ 

It requires a 12V signal for switching, I believe.

Array Solutions also sells some devices that may be of interest.

73!
Jack, W6fB

> On Feb 17, 2019, at 12:30 PM, Tom  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> I use a Kat500 with my K3 and KX3.  However, I have a number of other radios 
> which I would like to use with the Kat500.  So I'm looking for a antenna 
> switch that can change inputs in some way based on an electronic signal.  The 
> signal can be via serial device, or network doesn't matter.  Anyone know of 
> such a programmable switch? 
> Thanks, Tom
> Va2fsq.com
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
> Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
> Sent: February 17, 2019 3:06 PM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Coax Switches
> 
> Smart man and decisions and the way to do things correctly.  Glad to see this.
> 
> 73
> 
> Bob, K4TAX
> 
> 
> On 2/17/2019 9:38 AM, James F. Boehner MD via Elecraft wrote:
>> I  use the Alpha Delta Series.  They have SO-239 and "N" connector models, 
>> two position or four position.  For the price difference, I always get four 
>> position.
>> 
>> They are not only well built switches, but they do have surge protection 
>> (gas) with a replaceable pill.  Their best feature is the very high 
>> isolation they offer:
>> 
>> 30 MHz  >60 dB
>> 150 MHz >50 dB
>> 450 MHz 50 dB
>> 
>> And dB Loss:
>> 
>> 30 MHz  0.1 dB
>> 150 MHz 0.15 dB
>> 450 MHz 0.5 dB
>> 
>> So, I wish these could be remotable.  However, they are the best switches 
>> I've found for a reasonable price, and I have many of them in my station.
>> 
>> Oh yes, on the outside of my house, I have polyphasers.
>> 
>> '73 de JIM N2ZZ
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I do use a number of Daiwa 2-position coax switches for various 
>> purposes. Any comments on coax switches?
>> 
>> Bill W2BLC K-Line
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Looking for a way to switch an antenna input to the KAT500

[W2xj]

https://www.dowkey.com/product-category/coaxial-switches/

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 17, 2019, at 3:30 PM, Tom  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> I use a Kat500 with my K3 and KX3.  However, I have a number of other radios 
> which I would like to use with the Kat500.  So I'm looking for a antenna 
> switch that can change inputs in some way based on an electronic signal.  The 
> signal can be via serial device, or network doesn't matter.  Anyone know of 
> such a programmable switch? 
> Thanks, Tom
> Va2fsq.com
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
> Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
> Sent: February 17, 2019 3:06 PM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Coax Switches
> 
> Smart man and decisions and the way to do things correctly.  Glad to see this.
> 
> 73
> 
> Bob, K4TAX
> 
> 
>> On 2/17/2019 9:38 AM, James F. Boehner MD via Elecraft wrote:
>> I  use the Alpha Delta Series.  They have SO-239 and "N" connector models, 
>> two position or four position.  For the price difference, I always get four 
>> position.
>> 
>> They are not only well built switches, but they do have surge protection 
>> (gas) with a replaceable pill.  Their best feature is the very high 
>> isolation they offer:
>> 
>> 30 MHz  >60 dB
>> 150 MHz >50 dB
>> 450 MHz 50 dB
>> 
>> And dB Loss:
>> 
>> 30 MHz  0.1 dB
>> 150 MHz 0.15 dB
>> 450 MHz 0.5 dB
>> 
>> So, I wish these could be remotable.  However, they are the best switches 
>> I've found for a reasonable price, and I have many of them in my station.
>> 
>> Oh yes, on the outside of my house, I have polyphasers.
>> 
>> '73 de JIM N2ZZ
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I do use a number of Daiwa 2-position coax switches for various 
>> purposes. Any comments on coax switches?
>> 
>> Bill W2BLC K-Line
>> 
>> 
> 
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[Elecraft] Looking for a way to switch an antenna input to the KAT500

[Tom]

Hi,
I use a Kat500 with my K3 and KX3.  However, I have a number of other radios 
which I would like to use with the Kat500.  So I'm looking for a antenna switch 
that can change inputs in some way based on an electronic signal.  The signal 
can be via serial device, or network doesn't matter.  Anyone know of such a 
programmable switch? 
Thanks, Tom
Va2fsq.com

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
Sent: February 17, 2019 3:06 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Coax Switches

Smart man and decisions and the way to do things correctly.  Glad to see this.

73

Bob, K4TAX


On 2/17/2019 9:38 AM, James F. Boehner MD via Elecraft wrote:
> I  use the Alpha Delta Series.  They have SO-239 and "N" connector models, 
> two position or four position.  For the price difference, I always get four 
> position.
>
> They are not only well built switches, but they do have surge protection 
> (gas) with a replaceable pill.  Their best feature is the very high isolation 
> they offer:
>
> 30 MHz  >60 dB
> 150 MHz >50 dB
> 450 MHz 50 dB
>
> And dB Loss:
>
> 30 MHz  0.1 dB
> 150 MHz 0.15 dB
> 450 MHz 0.5 dB
>
> So, I wish these could be remotable.  However, they are the best switches 
> I've found for a reasonable price, and I have many of them in my station.
>
> Oh yes, on the outside of my house, I have polyphasers.
>
> '73 de JIM N2ZZ
>
>
>
> I do use a number of Daiwa 2-position coax switches for various 
> purposes. Any comments on coax switches?
>
> Bill W2BLC K-Line
>
>

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