Re: [Elecraft] OT: Aircraft radio FM
More interesting in the permanent self congratulation you see on here when someone buys a rig! Best regards, Tim Hague Skype m0afj.Tim Sent on my iPad On 16 Jul 2013, at 23:11, Rich r.br...@googlemail.com wrote: Am I the only one wondering what has any of this got to do with Elecraft?? Can the moderators put an end to all of these OT posts and return it to a reflector for its purpose please?? Yes I know where the delete button is but the threads get longer and longer. Nothing personal Mike, just picked your post to reply to. Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -Original Message- From: Mike Morrow k...@earthlink.net Sender: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 18:02:36 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; k...@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Mike Morrow k...@arrl.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Aircraft radio FM Ken wrote: AM aircraft radio has been around since the end of spark and steadily growing world-wide since that time. It was solidly in place -long- before FM was a gleam in Armstrong's eye. Er...I'm not sure how that supports an argument that transition to FM was *at any point and time* considered *by any responsible party* to have characteristics that were more desirable than AM for aircraft communications. The characterization that AM was solidly in place -long- before FM was a gleam in Armstrong's eye refers accurately only to the era when aircraft communications were only on medium and high frequencies... an era when long-range aircraft communications often still made use of Morse CW (hence the FCC Element 7 exam for Aircraft Radiotelegraph Endorsement, now discontinued). The transition from MF/HF to VHF for aircraft communications received its greatest push with the UK's pioneering use after 1940 of aircraft AM command sets operating in the range of 100 to 156 MHz. This sparked the allied US military's transition from MF/HF command sets to VHF command sets, one of the earliest being the Western Electric 233A set. At this point, VHF FM could have been *very easily* adopted, had it not been for its undesirable capture effect. Aircraft VHF-AM was chosen long after FM had been developed. The decision to use AM was purposely made. The adoption of aircraft VHF-AM was NOT the result of constraints from earlier legacy technology. All civil aviation eventually adopted the military standard of VHF-AM, although up to the mid-1950s many private aircraft continued to use MF/HF sets with receivers in the 200 to 400 kHz range and a transmitter on 3105 (later 3023.5) kHz...still far from a universal commitment to VHF-AM at that late date, had VHF-FM been a better choice. Further, by 1945, the US military began exploring UHF for aircraft comms. These new sets had no reason to stick with AM, if FM were superior. But FM was not superior...or as good. AM was chosen for use in the military UHF aircraft band as well. It remains that the staggering cost of conversion to FM is the real reason it continues today. That is a gratuitous assertion for which my decades of study in this area finds no substantiation. 73, Mike / KK5F __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Aircraft radio FM
Hmm. I noticed but it doesn't bother me. Presumably all who post here are either Elecraft owners or wannabees. I enjoy reading stuff from all those old hams who are been there, done that, wore out a dozen tee-shirts types. I am gonna join the Quarter Century Wireless Association (QWCA) this month, Chapter 9 (Southwestern Ohio), just to be around some of those guys who meet for lunch once a month. Many were born shortly after the turn of the previous century and have plenty of history to share. As for FM... gee, we are well into the 21st Century. If there was some overwhelming demand for aeronautical FM I am sure someone could engineer a chip that would eliminate the capture effect which, if I recall correctly, is an artifact of discriminator and ratio detector design, not a given because of the modulation mode. Maybe some sort of delayed auto-correlation algorithm applied prior to the limiter or in lieu of it would allow weak signals to be selected in preference to nearby strong signals, thereby preventing the capture effect. Ask Wayne. I don't see a limiter or a discriminator or a ratio detector in my KX3 schematic, yet it does FM. You can do almost anything with an SDR, except maybe brew coffee. End thread? 74 de AC8NS Hop - Original Message - From: Rich r.br...@googlemail.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 6:11 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Aircraft radio FM Am I the only one wondering what has any of this got to do with Elecraft?? Can the moderators put an end to all of these OT posts and return it to a reflector for its purpose please?? Yes I know where the delete button is but the threads get longer and longer. Nothing personal Mike, just picked your post to reply to. Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -Original Message- From: Mike Morrow k...@earthlink.net Sender: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 18:02:36 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; k...@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Mike Morrow k...@arrl.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Aircraft radio FM Ken wrote: AM aircraft radio has been around since the end of spark and steadily growing world-wide since that time. It was solidly in place -long- before FM was a gleam in Armstrong's eye. Er...I'm not sure how that supports an argument that transition to FM was *at any point and time* considered *by any responsible party* to have characteristics that were more desirable than AM for aircraft communications. The characterization that AM was solidly in place -long- before FM was a gleam in Armstrong's eye refers accurately only to the era when aircraft communications were only on medium and high frequencies... an era when long-range aircraft communications often still made use of Morse CW (hence the FCC Element 7 exam for Aircraft Radiotelegraph Endorsement, now discontinued). The transition from MF/HF to VHF for aircraft communications received its greatest push with the UK's pioneering use after 1940 of aircraft AM command sets operating in the range of 100 to 156 MHz. This sparked the allied US military's transition from MF/HF command sets to VHF command sets, one of the earliest being the Western Electric 233A set. At this point, VHF FM could have been *very easily* adopted, had it not been for its undesirable capture effect. Aircraft VHF-AM was chosen long after FM had been developed. The decision to use AM was purposely made. The adoption of aircraft VHF-AM was NOT the result of constraints from earlier legacy technology. All civil aviation eventually adopted the military standard of VHF-AM, although up to the mid-1950s many private aircraft continued to use MF/HF sets with receivers in the 200 to 400 kHz range and a transmitter on 3105 (later 3023.5) kHz...still far from a universal commitment to VHF-AM at that late date, had VHF-FM been a better choice. Further, by 1945, the US military began exploring UHF for aircraft comms. These new sets had no reason to stick with AM, if FM were superior. But FM was not superior...or as good. AM was chosen for use in the military UHF aircraft band as well. It remains that the staggering cost of conversion to FM is the real reason it continues today. That is a gratuitous assertion for which my decades of study in this area finds no substantiation. 73, Mike / KK5F __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net
[Elecraft] OT: Aircraft radio FM
I suppose the argument about no heterodyne with FM can be made, BUT ... AM aircraft radio has been around since the end of spark and steadily growing world-wide since that time. It was solidly in place -long- before FM was a gleam in Armstrong's eye. It remains that the staggering cost of conversion to FM is the real reason it continues today. 73! K0PP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Aircraft radio FM
NO! I wondered about that for YEARS, even when I was working in avionics! The REAL reason for using AM instead of FM is the FM capture effect. A slightly stronger signal on the channel will takeover the channel. You can't hear weaker signals thru it like AM. This was the real reason for sticking with AM for aviation.SAFETY in emergencies or distress conditions. Besides the usual 108-135 or so Mhz for AM aeronautical, the UHF (225-400 Mhz) the military uses is also still AM. I think Aeronautical AM will be around for many more years IF some dumb ass non engineer decides AM is Obsolete and screws things up. Seeing the present bright political appointees nothing would surprise me! 73 TO ALL, Sandy W5TVW -Original Message- From: Ken G Kopp Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 3:54 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net ; k...@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Aircraft radio FM I suppose the argument about no heterodyne with FM can be made, BUT ... AM aircraft radio has been around since the end of spark and steadily growing world-wide since that time. It was solidly in place -long- before FM was a gleam in Armstrong's eye. It remains that the staggering cost of conversion to FM is the real reason it continues today. 73! K0PP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3349 / Virus Database: 3204/6495 - Release Date: 07/16/13 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Aircraft radio FM
And... what would the improvement be for FM over AM? What would it be for ?? Other than making every aircraft change over... (follow the money) and the side by side systems in each control point... what would improve? Range?... not really... quality of audio? not really.. what then? someone's ego.. ?? or best of all.. lining someone's pocket.?? Have a great day, --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy From: ebj...@charter.net To: kengk...@gmail.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net; k...@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 16:27:26 -0500 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Aircraft radio FM NO! I wondered about that for YEARS, even when I was working in avionics! The REAL reason for using AM instead of FM is the FM capture effect. A slightly stronger signal on the channel will takeover the channel. You can't hear weaker signals thru it like AM. This was the real reason for sticking with AM for aviation.SAFETY in emergencies or distress conditions. Besides the usual 108-135 or so Mhz for AM aeronautical, the UHF (225-400 Mhz) the military uses is also still AM. I think Aeronautical AM will be around for many more years IF some dumb ass non engineer decides AM is Obsolete and screws things up. Seeing the present bright political appointees nothing would surprise me! 73 TO ALL, Sandy W5TVW -Original Message- From: Ken G Kopp Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 3:54 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net ; k...@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Aircraft radio FM I suppose the argument about no heterodyne with FM can be made, BUT ... AM aircraft radio has been around since the end of spark and steadily growing world-wide since that time. It was solidly in place -long- before FM was a gleam in Armstrong's eye. It remains that the staggering cost of conversion to FM is the real reason it continues today. 73! K0PP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3349 / Virus Database: 3204/6495 - Release Date: 07/16/13 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Aircraft radio FM
Ken wrote: AM aircraft radio has been around since the end of spark and steadily growing world-wide since that time. It was solidly in place -long- before FM was a gleam in Armstrong's eye. Er...I'm not sure how that supports an argument that transition to FM was *at any point and time* considered *by any responsible party* to have characteristics that were more desirable than AM for aircraft communications. The characterization that AM was solidly in place -long- before FM was a gleam in Armstrong's eye refers accurately only to the era when aircraft communications were only on medium and high frequencies... an era when long-range aircraft communications often still made use of Morse CW (hence the FCC Element 7 exam for Aircraft Radiotelegraph Endorsement, now discontinued). The transition from MF/HF to VHF for aircraft communications received its greatest push with the UK's pioneering use after 1940 of aircraft AM command sets operating in the range of 100 to 156 MHz. This sparked the allied US military's transition from MF/HF command sets to VHF command sets, one of the earliest being the Western Electric 233A set. At this point, VHF FM could have been *very easily* adopted, had it not been for its undesirable capture effect. Aircraft VHF-AM was chosen long after FM had been developed. The decision to use AM was purposely made. The adoption of aircraft VHF-AM was NOT the result of constraints from earlier legacy technology. All civil aviation eventually adopted the military standard of VHF-AM, although up to the mid-1950s many private aircraft continued to use MF/HF sets with receivers in the 200 to 400 kHz range and a transmitter on 3105 (later 3023.5) kHz...still far from a universal commitment to VHF-AM at that late date, had VHF-FM been a better choice. Further, by 1945, the US military began exploring UHF for aircraft comms. These new sets had no reason to stick with AM, if FM were superior. But FM was not superior...or as good. AM was chosen for use in the military UHF aircraft band as well. It remains that the staggering cost of conversion to FM is the real reason it continues today. That is a gratuitous assertion for which my decades of study in this area finds no substantiation. 73, Mike / KK5F __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Aircraft radio FM
Am I the only one wondering what has any of this got to do with Elecraft?? Can the moderators put an end to all of these OT posts and return it to a reflector for its purpose please?? Yes I know where the delete button is but the threads get longer and longer. Nothing personal Mike, just picked your post to reply to. Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -Original Message- From: Mike Morrow k...@earthlink.net Sender: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 18:02:36 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; k...@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Mike Morrow k...@arrl.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Aircraft radio FM Ken wrote: AM aircraft radio has been around since the end of spark and steadily growing world-wide since that time. It was solidly in place -long- before FM was a gleam in Armstrong's eye. Er...I'm not sure how that supports an argument that transition to FM was *at any point and time* considered *by any responsible party* to have characteristics that were more desirable than AM for aircraft communications. The characterization that AM was solidly in place -long- before FM was a gleam in Armstrong's eye refers accurately only to the era when aircraft communications were only on medium and high frequencies... an era when long-range aircraft communications often still made use of Morse CW (hence the FCC Element 7 exam for Aircraft Radiotelegraph Endorsement, now discontinued). The transition from MF/HF to VHF for aircraft communications received its greatest push with the UK's pioneering use after 1940 of aircraft AM command sets operating in the range of 100 to 156 MHz. This sparked the allied US military's transition from MF/HF command sets to VHF command sets, one of the earliest being the Western Electric 233A set. At this point, VHF FM could have been *very easily* adopted, had it not been for its undesirable capture effect. Aircraft VHF-AM was chosen long after FM had been developed. The decision to use AM was purposely made. The adoption of aircraft VHF-AM was NOT the result of constraints from earlier legacy technology. All civil aviation eventually adopted the military standard of VHF-AM, although up to the mid-1950s many private aircraft continued to use MF/HF sets with receivers in the 200 to 400 kHz range and a transmitter on 3105 (later 3023.5) kHz...still far from a universal commitment to VHF-AM at that late date, had VHF-FM been a better choice. Further, by 1945, the US military began exploring UHF for aircraft comms. These new sets had no reason to stick with AM, if FM were superior. But FM was not superior...or as good. AM was chosen for use in the military UHF aircraft band as well. It remains that the staggering cost of conversion to FM is the real reason it continues today. That is a gratuitous assertion for which my decades of study in this area finds no substantiation. 73, Mike / KK5F __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Aircraft radio FM
On 7/16/2013 2:27 PM, Sandy Blaize wrote: I think Aeronautical AM will be around for many more years IF some dumb ass non engineer decides AM is Obsolete and screws things up. Seeing the present bright political appointees nothing would surprise me! It would have to come from the ICAO through the ITU before the FCC would consider it. Digital TV and FM came about because of lobby pressure on The Congress (money talks). I can't foresee a lobby for Aeronautical AM. Very few technical changes start with staff recommendations. 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Aircraft radio FM
Yes I read all about RCA screwing Edwin Armstrong on wideband FM. David Sarnoff had connections with the FCC to eliminate the old FM band (pre war) and have the 88-108 region allotted which made all of Armstrong's equipment obsolete. Also RCA claims to have invented a new wideband FM system to work around Armstrong's patents. Armstrong's wife finally managed to finally win out over the manufacturer's and RCA in lawsuits long after Armstrong jumped out of a hotel window in disgust and near broke from legal costs. I remember FM heralded after the war but nothing ever overcoming the AM broadcasters until years later when all the principals were dead by then! A sad story of corporate greed and corruption. (With the help of the FCC back then, a lot of whose engineers got plum jobs with RCA!) 73, Sandy W5TVW -Original Message- From: Phil Kane Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 6:21 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Aircraft radio FM On 7/16/2013 2:27 PM, Sandy Blaize wrote: I think Aeronautical AM will be around for many more years IF some dumb ass non engineer decides AM is Obsolete and screws things up. Seeing the present bright political appointees nothing would surprise me! It would have to come from the ICAO through the ITU before the FCC would consider it. Digital TV and FM came about because of lobby pressure on The Congress (money talks). I can't foresee a lobby for Aeronautical AM. Very few technical changes start with staff recommendations. 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3349 / Virus Database: 3204/6496 - Release Date: 07/16/13 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
