Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update

[Dave Cole]

I switched to gas, and mu bill went from around 200 bucks a month for 
electric to about 80 in winter...  Also my Honda eu2000i now runs the 
heater.


73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 09/09/2017 03:00 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

Perhaps it is saying the obvious, but when considering the power
requirements of a home determine how it is heated. Here in Oregon, in the
land served by the Bonneville Hydroelectric dam, a great many homes like
mine are heated electrically. We have a forced air system that employs 3
electric "burners" each drawing 60 amps at 240 vac - more than 43 kW for the
furnace alone. Of course, on startup they draw far more than that for the
first minute until the coils get hot, so a sequencer brings each "burner" on
line one at a time over a period of a few minutes. On cold winter mornings
it's not unusual to see the mains voltage sag from 125 to 118 or less even
if we don't have the furnace running, thanks to all the other electric
furnaces in the neighborhood.

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 2:16 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update

On 9/9/2017 10:43 AM, Doug Hensley wrote:

I'm was pleased to hear K3, K3S & KX3 owners consistently reporting

whatever hash their units were producing had no ill effects on their
Elecraft radios during the period their generator was running.

It is quite common for generators to produce RF noise that radiates on power
wiring and is received by nearby antennas. The solutions are 1) bonding the
frame of the generator to the house ground with short, fat copper and/or 2)
a serious multi-turn ferrite common mode choke on the cable from the
generator output, as close to the generator as possible.
Obviously, proper bonding of all grounds is critical to #1 working.

Square footage of a home affects the electrical load ONLY if the generator
must run HVAC an system, and the load of that system is likely to be MUCH
greater than everything else put together, except a well motor. A larger
generator is likely to put out more RFI and be more difficult to suppress.

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update

[Ken]

Here I am running  the house with a 3000 watt Honda.   We use wood heat 
primarily so the furnace is no issue.  I don't worry about the water 
heater  or kitchen stove.  The microwave is on the transfer switch.  The 
transfer switch is a manually operated with a dozen circuits.


Ken WA8JXM


On 9/9/17 1:43 PM, Doug Hensley wrote:

I'm quite surprised by the many respondents with homes over 2500 sq feet running 
satisfactorily off generators under 10 KW with several as low as 5 & 5.5 KW.   One 
3300 sq ft home was happy on 7 KW.  Generator size ranged as you would expect from the 
portable Honda to the stationary GENERAC & KOHLER units.


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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update

[Mel Farrer via Elecraft]

Yes, Mine is a manual transfer at the mains, I have a night lite on the 
commercial side to tell me their power is back on.
Mel, K6KBE

  From: Richard Fjeld <rpfj...@outlook.com>
 To: "Charlie T, K3ICH" <pin...@erols.com>; "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" 
<elecraft@mailman.qth.net> 
 Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 2:53 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update
   
Charlie,
The bottom paragraph of your post caught my eye.

Transfer switch type  can depend upon a generator’s locale.  I have seen 
outdoor generators hard packed with snow internally.  I feel better about 
examining things before start-up. So for home use,  I favor manual control.

With a manual switch, it is nice not to have the whole AC panel transferred to 
generator so that it can be known when the commercial power is restored.

On the lighter side, I have a 350 watt peak AC Honda generator with a 12 volt 6 
amp DC output.  I won’t part with it. It is the size of a large lunch bucket. 
There isn’t room enough to tell how handy it has been.

Rich, n0ce

From: Charlie T, K3ICH<mailto:pin...@erols.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 1:37 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net<mailto:elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update

(snipped some)

In some of the smaller transfer panels, each house circuit has its own two
way switch such that you have to manually switch it from mains to generator
and back when the juice comes back on.  This works fine too and isolates the
generator output.

73, Charlie k3ICH


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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Perhaps it is saying the obvious, but when considering the power
requirements of a home determine how it is heated. Here in Oregon, in the
land served by the Bonneville Hydroelectric dam, a great many homes like
mine are heated electrically. We have a forced air system that employs 3
electric "burners" each drawing 60 amps at 240 vac - more than 43 kW for the
furnace alone. Of course, on startup they draw far more than that for the
first minute until the coils get hot, so a sequencer brings each "burner" on
line one at a time over a period of a few minutes. On cold winter mornings
it's not unusual to see the mains voltage sag from 125 to 118 or less even
if we don't have the furnace running, thanks to all the other electric
furnaces in the neighborhood.

73, Ron AC7AC 

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 2:16 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update

On 9/9/2017 10:43 AM, Doug Hensley wrote:
> I'm was pleased to hear K3, K3S & KX3 owners consistently reporting
whatever hash their units were producing had no ill effects on their
Elecraft radios during the period their generator was running.

It is quite common for generators to produce RF noise that radiates on power
wiring and is received by nearby antennas. The solutions are 1) bonding the
frame of the generator to the house ground with short, fat copper and/or 2)
a serious multi-turn ferrite common mode choke on the cable from the
generator output, as close to the generator as possible. 
Obviously, proper bonding of all grounds is critical to #1 working.

Square footage of a home affects the electrical load ONLY if the generator
must run HVAC an system, and the load of that system is likely to be MUCH
greater than everything else put together, except a well motor. A larger
generator is likely to put out more RFI and be more difficult to suppress.

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update

[Richard Fjeld]

Charlie,
The bottom paragraph of your post caught my eye.

Transfer switch type  can depend upon a generator’s locale.  I have seen 
outdoor generators hard packed with snow internally.  I feel better about 
examining things before start-up. So for home use,  I favor manual control.

With a manual switch, it is nice not to have the whole AC panel transferred to 
generator so that it can be known when the commercial power is restored.

On the lighter side, I have a 350 watt peak AC Honda generator with a 12 volt 6 
amp DC output.  I won’t part with it. It is the size of a large lunch bucket. 
There isn’t room enough to tell how handy it has been.

Rich, n0ce

From: Charlie T, K3ICH<mailto:pin...@erols.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 1:37 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net<mailto:elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update

(snipped some)

In some of the smaller transfer panels, each house circuit has its own two
way switch such that you have to manually switch it from mains to generator
and back when the juice comes back on.  This works fine too and isolates the
generator output.

73, Charlie k3ICH


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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update

[Jim Brown]

On 9/9/2017 10:43 AM, Doug Hensley wrote:

I'm was pleased to hear K3, K3S & KX3 owners consistently reporting whatever 
hash their units were producing had no ill effects on their Elecraft radios during 
the period their generator was running.


It is quite common for generators to produce RF noise that radiates on 
power wiring and is received by nearby antennas. The solutions are 1) 
bonding the frame of the generator to the house ground with short, fat 
copper and/or 2) a serious multi-turn ferrite common mode choke on the 
cable from the generator output, as close to the generator as possible. 
Obviously, proper bonding of all grounds is critical to #1 working.


Square footage of a home affects the electrical load ONLY if the 
generator must run HVAC an system, and the load of that system is likely 
to be MUCH greater than everything else put together, except a well 
motor. A larger generator is likely to put out more RFI and be more 
difficult to suppress.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update

[ab4iqkf4cxo]

I have a 20KW Generac here at the house and a 22KW Generac at the farm both 
with AUTO-transfer switches.  The 20KW here at the house is Natural Gas and the 
one at the farm is Propane.  I have noticed no issues at either location 
concerning radio gear.

Ed.. AB4IQ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2017 2:12 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update

I solved this issue by changing out the power feeds to both my gas heater, and 
gas hot water heater with AC line pigtails.

I just unplug the two devices from the AC mains, and plug them into the 
generator output lines.  I changed my stove to gas, so when there is a power 
fail, I run everything from a Honda UE2000i...  Heat, showers, and food...  We 
had a 6 day power fail last winter, and we were the only ones in the area with 
power...  Ran the EU2000i for 6 days straight.

Changed oil, etc., and we are ready again...

I built a full kit for the generator with an extended gas tank.

73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 09/09/2017 11:36 AM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:
> It's Generac "Synergy" not syntergy
> And yes, they just came out with them as their own version of the 
> inverter type generator.
> I've only seen it listed on a few of their dealers so far.
> 
> There's nothing magic about wiring a transfer switch. In the larger 
> systems of about 7 - 8 kW and higher, think of it as a remote 
> sub-panel that might for example, be in a garage and fed out of your 
> main house panel through an appropriate sized breaker, but with a two 
> way switch for the Line In that selects either the line from the main panel 
> or, the generator.
> This applies whether it is manually operated or fully automatic.
> All the control switching logic comes from the manufacturers circuitry.
> 
> The whole idea is to NEVER permit your generator output finding its 
> way out to your main feeders. (You could electrocute a Lineman working 
> on what he thinks is a dead line.  That pole-pig outside works both 
> ways.  You apply
> 240 V on your side and there is 7½ or higher kV on that deadly wire!) 
> Unless there is a massive failure in the switch itself, this can never 
> happen.  Most of the ones I've seen are WAY overrated for just that 
> sort of safety margin.  My panel came with a 15 kW generator, but has 
> a 200 Amp transfer switch.  The commercial power input is completely 
> dis-connected from the generator much the same way as a DPDT switch's 
> outer contacts never touch.
> 
> In some of the smaller transfer panels, each house circuit has its own 
> two way switch such that you have to manually switch it from mains to 
> generator and back when the juice comes back on.  This works fine too 
> and isolates the generator output.
> 
> 73, Charlie k3ICH
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Doug Hensley
> Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2017 1:44 PM
> To: Elecraft List <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update
> 
> Someone on the list suggested we post a summary of private responses to us
> as an alternative, I'm guessing, to members not knowing what was said.   In
> my case, the results don't lend themselves to a simple summary so I am 
> sending this as a fair response to what I learned:
> 
> 
>1.   I'm quite surprised by the many respondents with homes over 2500 sq
> feet running satisfactorily off generators under 10 KW with several as low
> as 5 & 5.5 KW.   One 3300 sq ft home was happy on 7 KW.  Generator size
> ranged as you would expect from the portable Honda to the stationary 
> GENERAC & KOHLER units.  Natural gas as a fuel choice got the most 
> recommendations.
> The overall lesson seems to be to "know your load" and buy what you 
> need, not what you want.
> 
>2.I'm was pleased to hear K3, K3S & KX3 owners consistently reporting
> whatever hash their units were producing had no ill effects on their 
> Elecraft radios during the period their generator was running.  One engineer
> measured his no frills stationary generator as having about 4% THD.   Most
> reported only the audible noise from their generator was noticeable 
> while it was running (I suppose like a lawn mower doing the lawn outside).
>3.No one reported having a GENERAC Syntergy unit.
>4.The 1800 RPM Kohler was recommended the most over the more prevalent
> & cheaper 3600 RPM units.
>5.Finally, most people were in favor of an automatic transfer switch
> for the whole house wi

Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update

[Mark Stennett]

Don’t forget break before make transfer switches. These provide for complete 
disconnect from one feed for a brief period before connecting to the other.


73 de na6m



On 9/9/17, 2:02 PM, "Dr. William J. Schmidt" <elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
on behalf of b...@wjschmidt.com> wrote:

Well there can be a little more to it. With the larger systems there is 
phasing circuitry (in the generator or the transfer switch:  i have both) to 
detect and switch at zero cross-over point for "bumpless" transfer of power.  
Causes the least amount of surge and damage. 


Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ
 
Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois
 
Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

email:  b...@wjschmidt.com
 

> On Sep 9, 2017, at 2:36 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH <pin...@erols.com> wrote:
> 
> It's Generac "Synergy" not syntergy
> And yes, they just came out with them as their own version of the inverter
> type generator.
> I've only seen it listed on a few of their dealers so far.
> 
> There's nothing magic about wiring a transfer switch. In the larger 
systems
> of about 7 - 8 kW and higher, think of it as a remote sub-panel that might
> for example, be in a garage and fed out of your main house panel through 
an
> appropriate sized breaker, but with a two way switch for the Line In that
> selects either the line from the main panel or, the generator.
> This applies whether it is manually operated or fully automatic.
> All the control switching logic comes from the manufacturers circuitry.
> 
> The whole idea is to NEVER permit your generator output finding its way 
out
> to your main feeders. (You could electrocute a Lineman working on what he
> thinks is a dead line.  That pole-pig outside works both ways.  You apply
> 240 V on your side and there is 7½ or higher kV on that deadly wire!)
> Unless there is a massive failure in the switch itself, this can never
> happen.  Most of the ones I've seen are WAY overrated for just that sort 
of
> safety margin.  My panel came with a 15 kW generator, but has a 200 Amp
> transfer switch.  The commercial power input is completely dis-connected
> from the generator much the same way as a DPDT switch's outer contacts 
never
> touch.
> 
> In some of the smaller transfer panels, each house circuit has its own two
> way switch such that you have to manually switch it from mains to 
generator
> and back when the juice comes back on.  This works fine too and isolates 
the
> generator output.
> 
> 73, Charlie k3ICH
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Doug Hensley
    > Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2017 1:44 PM
> To: Elecraft List <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update
> 
> Someone on the list suggested we post a summary of private responses to us
> as an alternative, I'm guessing, to members not knowing what was said.   
In
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update

[Dave Cole]

I solved this issue by changing out the power feeds to both my gas 
heater, and gas hot water heater with AC line pigtails.


I just unplug the two devices from the AC mains, and plug them into the 
generator output lines.  I changed my stove to gas, so when there is a 
power fail, I run everything from a Honda UE2000i...  Heat, showers, and 
food...  We had a 6 day power fail last winter, and we were the only 
ones in the area with power...  Ran the EU2000i for 6 days straight.


Changed oil, etc., and we are ready again...

I built a full kit for the generator with an extended gas tank.

73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 09/09/2017 11:36 AM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:

It's Generac "Synergy" not syntergy
And yes, they just came out with them as their own version of the inverter
type generator.
I've only seen it listed on a few of their dealers so far.

There's nothing magic about wiring a transfer switch. In the larger systems
of about 7 - 8 kW and higher, think of it as a remote sub-panel that might
for example, be in a garage and fed out of your main house panel through an
appropriate sized breaker, but with a two way switch for the Line In that
selects either the line from the main panel or, the generator.
This applies whether it is manually operated or fully automatic.
All the control switching logic comes from the manufacturers circuitry.

The whole idea is to NEVER permit your generator output finding its way out
to your main feeders. (You could electrocute a Lineman working on what he
thinks is a dead line.  That pole-pig outside works both ways.  You apply
240 V on your side and there is 7½ or higher kV on that deadly wire!)
Unless there is a massive failure in the switch itself, this can never
happen.  Most of the ones I've seen are WAY overrated for just that sort of
safety margin.  My panel came with a 15 kW generator, but has a 200 Amp
transfer switch.  The commercial power input is completely dis-connected
from the generator much the same way as a DPDT switch's outer contacts never
touch.

In some of the smaller transfer panels, each house circuit has its own two
way switch such that you have to manually switch it from mains to generator
and back when the juice comes back on.  This works fine too and isolates the
generator output.

73, Charlie k3ICH

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Doug Hensley
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2017 1:44 PM
To: Elecraft List <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update

Someone on the list suggested we post a summary of private responses to us
as an alternative, I'm guessing, to members not knowing what was said.   In
my case, the results don't lend themselves to a simple summary so I am
sending this as a fair response to what I learned:


   1.   I'm quite surprised by the many respondents with homes over 2500 sq
feet running satisfactorily off generators under 10 KW with several as low
as 5 & 5.5 KW.   One 3300 sq ft home was happy on 7 KW.  Generator size
ranged as you would expect from the portable Honda to the stationary GENERAC
& KOHLER units.  Natural gas as a fuel choice got the most recommendations.
The overall lesson seems to be to "know your load" and buy what you need,
not what you want.

   2.I'm was pleased to hear K3, K3S & KX3 owners consistently reporting
whatever hash their units were producing had no ill effects on their
Elecraft radios during the period their generator was running.  One engineer
measured his no frills stationary generator as having about 4% THD.   Most
reported only the audible noise from their generator was noticeable while it
was running (I suppose like a lawn mower doing the lawn outside).
   3.No one reported having a GENERAC Syntergy unit.
   4.The 1800 RPM Kohler was recommended the most over the more prevalent
& cheaper 3600 RPM units.
   5.Finally, most people were in favor of an automatic transfer switch
for the whole house with installation done by a proper electrician.


Sorry I can't give any more specifics.  The reports of Elecraft working
nicely with or without the generator running was refreshing.  Thanks to all
who responded.


Doug W5JV






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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update

[Dr. William J. Schmidt]

Well there can be a little more to it. With the larger systems there is phasing 
circuitry (in the generator or the transfer switch:  i have both) to detect and 
switch at zero cross-over point for "bumpless" transfer of power.  Causes the 
least amount of surge and damage. 


Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ
 
Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois
 
Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

email:  b...@wjschmidt.com
 

> On Sep 9, 2017, at 2:36 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH <pin...@erols.com> wrote:
> 
> It's Generac "Synergy" not syntergy
> And yes, they just came out with them as their own version of the inverter
> type generator.
> I've only seen it listed on a few of their dealers so far.
> 
> There's nothing magic about wiring a transfer switch. In the larger systems
> of about 7 - 8 kW and higher, think of it as a remote sub-panel that might
> for example, be in a garage and fed out of your main house panel through an
> appropriate sized breaker, but with a two way switch for the Line In that
> selects either the line from the main panel or, the generator.
> This applies whether it is manually operated or fully automatic.
> All the control switching logic comes from the manufacturers circuitry.
> 
> The whole idea is to NEVER permit your generator output finding its way out
> to your main feeders. (You could electrocute a Lineman working on what he
> thinks is a dead line.  That pole-pig outside works both ways.  You apply
> 240 V on your side and there is 7½ or higher kV on that deadly wire!)
> Unless there is a massive failure in the switch itself, this can never
> happen.  Most of the ones I've seen are WAY overrated for just that sort of
> safety margin.  My panel came with a 15 kW generator, but has a 200 Amp
> transfer switch.  The commercial power input is completely dis-connected
> from the generator much the same way as a DPDT switch's outer contacts never
> touch.
> 
> In some of the smaller transfer panels, each house circuit has its own two
> way switch such that you have to manually switch it from mains to generator
> and back when the juice comes back on.  This works fine too and isolates the
> generator output.
> 
> 73, Charlie k3ICH
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Doug Hensley
> Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2017 1:44 PM
> To: Elecraft List <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update
> 
> Someone on the list suggested we post a summary of private responses to us
> as an alternative, I'm guessing, to members not knowing what was said.   In
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update

[Charlie T, K3ICH]

It's Generac "Synergy" not syntergy
And yes, they just came out with them as their own version of the inverter
type generator.
I've only seen it listed on a few of their dealers so far.

There's nothing magic about wiring a transfer switch. In the larger systems
of about 7 - 8 kW and higher, think of it as a remote sub-panel that might
for example, be in a garage and fed out of your main house panel through an
appropriate sized breaker, but with a two way switch for the Line In that
selects either the line from the main panel or, the generator.
This applies whether it is manually operated or fully automatic.
All the control switching logic comes from the manufacturers circuitry.

The whole idea is to NEVER permit your generator output finding its way out
to your main feeders. (You could electrocute a Lineman working on what he
thinks is a dead line.  That pole-pig outside works both ways.  You apply
240 V on your side and there is 7½ or higher kV on that deadly wire!)
Unless there is a massive failure in the switch itself, this can never
happen.  Most of the ones I've seen are WAY overrated for just that sort of
safety margin.  My panel came with a 15 kW generator, but has a 200 Amp
transfer switch.  The commercial power input is completely dis-connected
from the generator much the same way as a DPDT switch's outer contacts never
touch.

In some of the smaller transfer panels, each house circuit has its own two
way switch such that you have to manually switch it from mains to generator
and back when the juice comes back on.  This works fine too and isolates the
generator output.

73, Charlie k3ICH

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Doug Hensley
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2017 1:44 PM
To: Elecraft List <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update

Someone on the list suggested we post a summary of private responses to us
as an alternative, I'm guessing, to members not knowing what was said.   In
my case, the results don't lend themselves to a simple summary so I am
sending this as a fair response to what I learned:


  1.   I'm quite surprised by the many respondents with homes over 2500 sq
feet running satisfactorily off generators under 10 KW with several as low
as 5 & 5.5 KW.   One 3300 sq ft home was happy on 7 KW.  Generator size
ranged as you would expect from the portable Honda to the stationary GENERAC
& KOHLER units.  Natural gas as a fuel choice got the most recommendations.
The overall lesson seems to be to "know your load" and buy what you need,
not what you want.

  2.I'm was pleased to hear K3, K3S & KX3 owners consistently reporting
whatever hash their units were producing had no ill effects on their
Elecraft radios during the period their generator was running.  One engineer
measured his no frills stationary generator as having about 4% THD.   Most
reported only the audible noise from their generator was noticeable while it
was running (I suppose like a lawn mower doing the lawn outside).
  3.No one reported having a GENERAC Syntergy unit.
  4.The 1800 RPM Kohler was recommended the most over the more prevalent
& cheaper 3600 RPM units.
  5.Finally, most people were in favor of an automatic transfer switch
for the whole house with installation done by a proper electrician.


Sorry I can't give any more specifics.  The reports of Elecraft working
nicely with or without the generator running was refreshing.  Thanks to all
who responded.


Doug W5JV






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[Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator - Update

[Doug Hensley]

Someone on the list suggested we post a summary of private responses to us as 
an alternative, I'm guessing, to members not knowing what was said.   In my 
case, the results don't lend themselves to a simple summary so I am sending 
this as a fair response to what I learned:


  1.   I'm quite surprised by the many respondents with homes over 2500 sq feet 
running satisfactorily off generators under 10 KW with several as low as 5 & 
5.5 KW.   One 3300 sq ft home was happy on 7 KW.  Generator size ranged as you 
would expect from the portable Honda to the stationary GENERAC & KOHLER units.  
Natural gas as a fuel choice got the most recommendations.  The overall lesson 
seems to be to "know your load" and buy what you need, not what you want.

  2.I'm was pleased to hear K3, K3S & KX3 owners consistently reporting 
whatever hash their units were producing had no ill effects on their Elecraft 
radios during the period their generator was running.  One engineer measured 
his no frills stationary generator as having about 4% THD.   Most reported only 
the audible noise from their generator was noticeable while it was running (I 
suppose like a lawn mower doing the lawn outside).
  3.No one reported having a GENERAC Syntergy unit.
  4.The 1800 RPM Kohler was recommended the most over the more prevalent & 
cheaper 3600 RPM units.
  5.Finally, most people were in favor of an automatic transfer switch for 
the whole house with installation done by a proper electrician.


Sorry I can't give any more specifics.  The reports of Elecraft working nicely 
with or without the generator running was refreshing.  Thanks to all who 
responded.


Doug W5JV






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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator

[Charlie T, K3ICH]

I'd have a fully automatic generator in a second IF we had propane or natural 
gas available.
However, the addition of suitable tanks and piping, which MUST be installed 
"professionally", would be well over the cost of the generator itself.

All of you with non-invertor conventional 3600 RPM generators should take a 
look at the actual waveform coming out of them.
My older Honda ES-6500 would run anything I connected to it, but my computer 
UPS did NOT like it.  The waveform was basically 60 Hz but there was noticeable 
distortion and glitches.

The inverters are certainly more complicated with potentially more things to 
fail, BUT the waveform out of My Honda EU-7000 is audio signal generator clean.

73, Charlie k3ICH






On 9/8/2017 8:46 AM, Chip Stratton wrote:
> I have a Kohler 8 kw unit on a whole house automatic transfer switch 
> that runs on propane, No A/C so 8 kW supplies the whole house just 
> fine. I've measured its output at 4% THD using a Fluke power quality 
> meter with or without load. Seems to fit the ticket.
>
> Chip
> AE5KA
>


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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator

[N4ZR]

FWIW, I have a 16 KW Generac propane generator.  It uses load-shedding 
modules with an automatic transfer switch, so that if my load exceeds 
capacity the 240-VAC loads will be shed one at a time.  I figure the 
chances of my simultaneously running the dryer, the oven, the AC and my 
amplifier are pretty low.  Haven't noticed any problems with the 
waveform, but haven't really looked.


73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
at , now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

On 9/8/2017 8:46 AM, Chip Stratton wrote:

I have a Kohler 8 kw unit on a whole house automatic transfer switch that
runs on propane, No A/C so 8 kW supplies the whole house just fine. I've
measured its output at 4% THD using a Fluke power quality meter with or
without load. Seems to fit the ticket.

Chip
AE5KA

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 5:52 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:


On 9/7/2017 1:15 PM, Doug Hensley wrote:


I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator


It's worth thinking about your needs first. Key questions are"

1) What loads do I need to run from it? Get hard numbers, including
starting current for motors (refrigerators, well pumps, etc.) The 120V
loads can easily be measured with a Kill-A-Watt meter. You'll need a
clamp-on current probe for your VOM or scope to measure permanently wired
loads and 240V loads.

2) How often are power outages?  How long do they last?

3) Do I really need to run A/C from a generator?  Obviously depends on
climate, but also demands a bigger generator and a lot more fuel.

I have two generators. One is a Honda 2000i, which I can easily carry, and
use for portable hamming. The second is a 6.5kVA Honda (EU6500?) that can
be set for either 120VAC or 120/240 with a neutral. I use it in the
120/240V mode. It's big enough to run my well motors.

I've rewired the breaker panel in my home to put all my "critical" loads
on one side of 120V -- lights, computers, TV, refrigerator -- and have
found that the little 2000i can run it all in econ-mode. That gives us the
option of using the smaller generator until we need to re-build the water
pressure during a long outage.

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator

[Chip Stratton]

I have a Kohler 8 kw unit on a whole house automatic transfer switch that
runs on propane, No A/C so 8 kW supplies the whole house just fine. I've
measured its output at 4% THD using a Fluke power quality meter with or
without load. Seems to fit the ticket.

Chip
AE5KA

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 5:52 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:

> On 9/7/2017 1:15 PM, Doug Hensley wrote:
>
>> I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator
>>
>
> It's worth thinking about your needs first. Key questions are"
>
> 1) What loads do I need to run from it? Get hard numbers, including
> starting current for motors (refrigerators, well pumps, etc.) The 120V
> loads can easily be measured with a Kill-A-Watt meter. You'll need a
> clamp-on current probe for your VOM or scope to measure permanently wired
> loads and 240V loads.
>
> 2) How often are power outages?  How long do they last?
>
> 3) Do I really need to run A/C from a generator?  Obviously depends on
> climate, but also demands a bigger generator and a lot more fuel.
>
> I have two generators. One is a Honda 2000i, which I can easily carry, and
> use for portable hamming. The second is a 6.5kVA Honda (EU6500?) that can
> be set for either 120VAC or 120/240 with a neutral. I use it in the
> 120/240V mode. It's big enough to run my well motors.
>
> I've rewired the breaker panel in my home to put all my "critical" loads
> on one side of 120V -- lights, computers, TV, refrigerator -- and have
> found that the little 2000i can run it all in econ-mode. That gives us the
> option of using the smaller generator until we need to re-build the water
> pressure during a long outage.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator

[Jim Brown]

On 9/7/2017 1:15 PM, Doug Hensley wrote:

I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator


It's worth thinking about your needs first. Key questions are"

1) What loads do I need to run from it? Get hard numbers, including 
starting current for motors (refrigerators, well pumps, etc.) The 120V 
loads can easily be measured with a Kill-A-Watt meter. You'll need a 
clamp-on current probe for your VOM or scope to measure permanently 
wired loads and 240V loads.


2) How often are power outages?  How long do they last?

3) Do I really need to run A/C from a generator?  Obviously depends on 
climate, but also demands a bigger generator and a lot more fuel.


I have two generators. One is a Honda 2000i, which I can easily carry, 
and use for portable hamming. The second is a 6.5kVA Honda (EU6500?) 
that can be set for either 120VAC or 120/240 with a neutral. I use it in 
the 120/240V mode. It's big enough to run my well motors.


I've rewired the breaker panel in my home to put all my "critical" loads 
on one side of 120V -- lights, computers, TV, refrigerator -- and have 
found that the little 2000i can run it all in econ-mode. That gives us 
the option of using the smaller generator until we need to re-build the 
water pressure during a long outage.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator

[Fred Jensen]

Hmmm ... for over a decade we used a stock gasoline Generac [7.5 KVA 
IIRC] at the Alpine County camp for the Cal QSO Party.  Acoustically 
noisy [RF quiet] but ran fine and the various transceivers we used over 
the years never complained. With the tube amps, PF ran around 0.9 or so, 
with the KPA500 it ran around 0.8 or so.  We also had a Honda inverter 
[2 KW], used primarily in econo-mode to run the electric blankets at 
night [very quiet idle].  It was RF-quiet too, just struggled some if we 
tried to run the station on it.


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 9/7/2017 1:54 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft wrote:

I tried to get more information on the "syntergy" process.  I know of no 
electrical design of the alternator that allow a non distorted change in frequency of the 
output,  However a method of load sensing and a planetary transmission with speed 
selection could do the job of letting the motor run slower while the alternator is at 
constant speed.  The 5-12 minute load sensing could be the process of the speed selection 
so that no load is affected.  Hummm interesting.
I have a 35 KW diesel Generac and never looked back.  It uses the old governor 
method of adjusting engineer fuel/RPM to load. Less load less fuel used.  OH 
well.
Mel, K6KBE

   From: Doug Hensley <w...@hotmail.com>
  To: Elecraft List <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
  Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 1:18 PM
  Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator

If you want to respond to this, please respond privately to me and NOT the list.



I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator and what caught 
my ey in the process was a new generator by GENERAC called "Syntergy" which 
uses a new three-vein generator and produces a relatively clean sine wave.  So clean, 
GENERAC claims less than 1% harmonic distortion, a level virtually undetectable to the 
user.


Has anyone studied this unit and made any conclusions about it?  Their standard 
unit produces a minimum of 10% harmonic distortion and they warn some 
communications services might become unuseable.


Again, respond to me privately:  <<  w5jv @ hotmail.com  >>.


Thank you,


Doug W5JV







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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator

[Charlie T, K3ICH]

This new variety of Generac's are obviously all the new "Inverter" type
generators, because in order for a non-invertor type to make 60 Hz AC power,
it HAS to run at some multiple of 60Hz, typically 3600 RPM constant speed.

The ONLY way the engine speed can vary is to utilize an SS circuit to
generate the required 60 HZ sine wave.

I currently have a Honda EU7000 set up in an "almost" automatic running
mode.  I have to manually start the generator and hit a push-button which
energizes a big transfer switch so certain circuits in the house go from
mains to generator.
When commercial power is restored for at least a continuous minute, the
system reverts back to mains power.  I then have to manually shut off the
generator. 

Glad to see Generac moving to this type.  It should make your UPS systems
much happier.

73, Charlie k3ICH''



-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Mark Bayern
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2017 5:16 PM
To: Mel Farrer <farrerfo...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Elecraft List <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>; Doug Hensley
<w...@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator

I found that Generac has a series of egens they call the 'Synergy'
line. These are variable speed generators. The only variable speed
generators I'm familiar rectify the alternator's output then use PWM to
generate the 60hz 115VAC waveform.

The Honda small portable 1KW and 2KW gens use this system.

Mark


On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 3:54 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft
<elecraft@mailman.qth.net> wrote:
> I tried to get more information on the "syntergy" process.  I know of no
electrical design of the alternator that allow a non distorted change in
frequency of the output,  However a method of load sensing and a planetary
transmission with speed selection could do the job of letting the motor run
slower while the alternator is at constant speed.  The 5-12 minute load
sensing could be the process of the speed selection so that no load is
affected.  Hummm interesting.
> I have a 35 KW diesel Generac and never looked back.  It uses the old
governor method of adjusting engineer fuel/RPM to load. Less load less fuel
used.  OH well.
> Mel, K6KBE
>
>   From: Doug Hensley <w...@hotmail.com>
>  To: Elecraft List <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
>  Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 1:18 PM
>  Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator
>
> If you want to respond to this, please respond privately to me and NOT the
list.
>
>
> I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator
and what caught my ey in the process was a new generator by GENERAC called
"Syntergy" which uses a new three-vein generator and produces a relatively
clean sine wave.  So clean, GENERAC claims less than 1% harmonic distortion,
a level virtually undetectable to the user.
>
>
> Has anyone studied this unit and made any conclusions about it?  Their
standard unit produces a minimum of 10% harmonic distortion and they warn
some communications services might become unuseable.
>
>
> Again, respond to me privately:  <<  w5jv @ hotmail.com  >>.
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> Doug W5JV
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator

[Mel Farrer via Elecraft]

OK, more complexity more MTBF issues.  If the system is for whole house backup 
and you need LONG term protection, think "reliability".  
The older systems are easy to maintain and service and there is nothing to go 
wrong on the AC generation that simple parts you can get will get it back 
working.  Hum. 
My OLDER Generac is 35 years old and running with exception to replace a simple 
battery alternator, fan belts and thermal switches that did not fix.
Mel, K6KBE

  From: Mark Bayern <m...@mlb.net>
 To: Mel Farrer <farrerfo...@yahoo.com> 
Cc: Doug Hensley <w...@hotmail.com>; Elecraft List <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
 Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 2:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator
   
I found that Generac has a series of egens they call the 'Synergy'
line. These are variable speed generators. The only variable speed
generators I'm familiar rectify the alternator's output then use PWM
to generate the 60hz 115VAC waveform.

The Honda small portable 1KW and 2KW gens use this system.

Mark


On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 3:54 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft
<elecraft@mailman.qth.net> wrote:
> I tried to get more information on the "syntergy" process.  I know of no 
> electrical design of the alternator that allow a non distorted change in 
> frequency of the output,  However a method of load sensing and a planetary 
> transmission with speed selection could do the job of letting the motor run 
> slower while the alternator is at constant speed.  The 5-12 minute load 
> sensing could be the process of the speed selection so that no load is 
> affected.  Hummm interesting.
> I have a 35 KW diesel Generac and never looked back.  It uses the old 
> governor method of adjusting engineer fuel/RPM to load. Less load less fuel 
> used.  OH well.
> Mel, K6KBE
>
>      From: Doug Hensley <w...@hotmail.com>
>  To: Elecraft List <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
>  Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 1:18 PM
>  Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator
>
> If you want to respond to this, please respond privately to me and NOT the 
> list.
>
>
> I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator and 
> what caught my ey in the process was a new generator by GENERAC called 
> "Syntergy" which uses a new three-vein generator and produces a relatively 
> clean sine wave.  So clean, GENERAC claims less than 1% harmonic distortion, 
> a level virtually undetectable to the user.
>
>
> Has anyone studied this unit and made any conclusions about it?  Their 
> standard unit produces a minimum of 10% harmonic distortion and they warn 
> some communications services might become unuseable.
>
>
> Again, respond to me privately:  <<  w5jv @ hotmail.com  >>.
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> Doug W5JV
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator

[N2TK, Tony]

The only issue I have had with my Generac 16KW Quiet-Source was with a
couple old UPS supplies. In their software I had to open up the window for
voltage. The new UPS supplies and any other equipment in the house have not
had any problem with the generator power.  I like the idea of the
"Syntergy".
Let us know how you make out

73,
N2TK, Tony

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Doug Hensley
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2017 4:16 PM
To: Elecraft List <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator

If you want to respond to this, please respond privately to me and NOT the
list.


I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator and
what caught my ey in the process was a new generator by GENERAC called
"Syntergy" which uses a new three-vein generator and produces a relatively
clean sine wave.  So clean, GENERAC claims less than 1% harmonic distortion,
a level virtually undetectable to the user.


Has anyone studied this unit and made any conclusions about it?  Their
standard unit produces a minimum of 10% harmonic distortion and they warn
some communications services might become unuseable.


Again, respond to me privately:  <<  w5jv @ hotmail.com  >>.


Thank you,


Doug W5JV







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delivered to tony@verizon.net

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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator

[Mark Bayern]

I found that Generac has a series of egens they call the 'Synergy'
line. These are variable speed generators. The only variable speed
generators I'm familiar rectify the alternator's output then use PWM
to generate the 60hz 115VAC waveform.

The Honda small portable 1KW and 2KW gens use this system.

Mark


On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 3:54 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft
<elecraft@mailman.qth.net> wrote:
> I tried to get more information on the "syntergy" process.  I know of no 
> electrical design of the alternator that allow a non distorted change in 
> frequency of the output,  However a method of load sensing and a planetary 
> transmission with speed selection could do the job of letting the motor run 
> slower while the alternator is at constant speed.  The 5-12 minute load 
> sensing could be the process of the speed selection so that no load is 
> affected.  Hummm interesting.
> I have a 35 KW diesel Generac and never looked back.  It uses the old 
> governor method of adjusting engineer fuel/RPM to load. Less load less fuel 
> used.  OH well.
> Mel, K6KBE
>
>   From: Doug Hensley <w...@hotmail.com>
>  To: Elecraft List <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
>  Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 1:18 PM
>  Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator
>
> If you want to respond to this, please respond privately to me and NOT the 
> list.
>
>
> I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator and 
> what caught my ey in the process was a new generator by GENERAC called 
> "Syntergy" which uses a new three-vein generator and produces a relatively 
> clean sine wave.  So clean, GENERAC claims less than 1% harmonic distortion, 
> a level virtually undetectable to the user.
>
>
> Has anyone studied this unit and made any conclusions about it?  Their 
> standard unit produces a minimum of 10% harmonic distortion and they warn 
> some communications services might become unuseable.
>
>
> Again, respond to me privately:  <<  w5jv @ hotmail.com  >>.
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> Doug W5JV
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to farrerfo...@yahoo.com
>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

I suspect a fair number of us are interested, as long as we can keep to 
the (reasonable) OT limits.


Friends have Generac units, not "low distortion" and report good results.

Since most of the ham gear I've owned takes 110v, rectifies, filters and 
regulates it, I'm not sure we need to worry about distortion.


The exception is your basic uninterruptible power supply that senses 
distortion and thinks it's a sign of an upcoming outage.


73 -- Lynn

On 9/7/2017 1:15 PM, Doug Hensley wrote:

If you want to respond to this, please respond privately to me and NOT the list.


I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator and what caught 
my ey in the process was a new generator by GENERAC called "Syntergy" which 
uses a new three-vein generator and produces a relatively clean sine wave.  So clean, 
GENERAC claims less than 1% harmonic distortion, a level virtually undetectable to the 
user.


Has anyone studied this unit and made any conclusions about it?  Their standard 
unit produces a minimum of 10% harmonic distortion and they warn some 
communications services might become unuseable.


Again, respond to me privately:  <<  w5jv @ hotmail.com  >>.


Thank you,


Doug W5JV







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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator

[Mel Farrer via Elecraft]

I tried to get more information on the "syntergy" process.  I know of no 
electrical design of the alternator that allow a non distorted change in 
frequency of the output,  However a method of load sensing and a planetary 
transmission with speed selection could do the job of letting the motor run 
slower while the alternator is at constant speed.  The 5-12 minute load sensing 
could be the process of the speed selection so that no load is affected.  Hummm 
interesting.
I have a 35 KW diesel Generac and never looked back.  It uses the old governor 
method of adjusting engineer fuel/RPM to load. Less load less fuel used.  OH 
well.  
Mel, K6KBE

  From: Doug Hensley <w...@hotmail.com>
 To: Elecraft List <elecraft@mailman.qth.net> 
 Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 1:18 PM
 Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator
   
If you want to respond to this, please respond privately to me and NOT the list.


I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator and 
what caught my ey in the process was a new generator by GENERAC called 
"Syntergy" which uses a new three-vein generator and produces a relatively 
clean sine wave.  So clean, GENERAC claims less than 1% harmonic distortion, a 
level virtually undetectable to the user.


Has anyone studied this unit and made any conclusions about it?  Their standard 
unit produces a minimum of 10% harmonic distortion and they warn some 
communications services might become unuseable.


Again, respond to me privately:  <<  w5jv @ hotmail.com  >>.


Thank you,


Doug W5JV







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[Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator

[Doug Hensley]

If you want to respond to this, please respond privately to me and NOT the list.


I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator and 
what caught my ey in the process was a new generator by GENERAC called 
"Syntergy" which uses a new three-vein generator and produces a relatively 
clean sine wave.  So clean, GENERAC claims less than 1% harmonic distortion, a 
level virtually undetectable to the user.


Has anyone studied this unit and made any conclusions about it?  Their standard 
unit produces a minimum of 10% harmonic distortion and they warn some 
communications services might become unuseable.


Again, respond to me privately:  <<  w5jv @ hotmail.com  >>.


Thank you,


Doug W5JV







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