Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[Mark Goldberg]

IPC-610 is really an acceptance criteria, what it should look like after it
is done. A company or industry can choose to use this or not. Some think it
has caused companies to build in lower cost countries that don't actually
follow it, but claim to. One of the major standards to build to is
J-STD-001. I have and use that too, but IPC-610 has more info about what it
should look like after it is done.

So, IPC-610 and J-STD-001 are what I am familiar with, so I use them and
other referenced standards. They have three classes. Generally the highest
Class 3 is considered for high performance or critical systems. If I was an
automotive company, that is what I would use. For commercial products,
lower Class 2 or even the lowest Class 1 might be OK. My work probably
meets Class 1 most of the time.

Some manufacturers have done things not in the specs for their own reasons,
such as phone makers using low silver content lead free solder because it
works well in shock (dropped phones) but not so much in vibration that may
be found in aircraft or autos.

The specs may be used for anything if you wish. NASA has had their own
specs (NASA-STD-8739.3, superseded by J-STS-001-FS which I have never seen
as I never worked on space products) and other manufacturer's may have
their own specs too. I just don't know who actually uses them.

You can Google these various standards and find some old versions for free,
but most of the latest ones will cost you. They are long and boring, but I
generally search for what I want to do and read that section. I used to
work with some of the fine people who wrote the standards to point out the
right sections to me. These standards are updated after thousands of hours
of testing and experimentation. I was also able to watch some very skilled
people solder. My skills pale in comparison, but I try.

73,

Mark
W7MLG

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 3:22 PM, N2TK, Tony <tony@verizon.net> wrote:

> Mark,
> Does IPC-610 also cover automotive products?
> N2TK, Tony
>
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Mark Goldberg
> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 6:20 PM
> To: Elecraft Mailing List <Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques:
> trim
> before or after soldering?
>
> For commercial products, there is IPC-610. That is 400+ pages of
> descriptions of how to determine acceptability of and  build electronic
> assemblies. It has very clear explanations and lots of pictures and
> diagrams
> of right and wrong ways to do things.
>
> Unfortunately, you may have to pay to get a copy. There are also a whole
> series of more specific specification documents for certain operations, but
> IPC-610 will have most of what you need to know. At least, it is what I
> look
> at first.
>
> Section 7.3.5.9 allows trimming after soldering if the trimming does not
> damage the solder. For certain classes of products, a visual inspection at
> 10X is required. Reflowing after cutting is also acceptable instead of
> inspection. I believe there are special trimmers that minimize shock during
> the trimming process.
>
> I attempt to follow IPC-610, although my skills may not be fully up to the
> task. At least I know where I fall short.
>
> 73,
>
> Mark
> W7MLG
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 10:28 AM, Mark Petrovic <mspetro...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > While reading through my new K2 kit's control board assembly
> > instructions, I see that some builders prefer to trim the resistor and
> > capacitor leads before soldering.  I'm intrigued by this, and wonder
> > if someone who uses this technique can share their experiences. Do you
> > the solder the component from the top of the board or bottom?  How do
> > you keep the component in place during soldering?  I am assuming the
> > value of this technique is in the resulting lower profile of the
> components on the backside of the board.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Mark
> > AE6RT
> >
> > --
> > Mark
> > __
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> > list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> > marklgoldb...@gmail.com
> >
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[N2TK, Tony]

Mark,
Does IPC-610 also cover automotive products?
N2TK, Tony

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Mark Goldberg
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 6:20 PM
To: Elecraft Mailing List <Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim
before or after soldering?

For commercial products, there is IPC-610. That is 400+ pages of
descriptions of how to determine acceptability of and  build electronic
assemblies. It has very clear explanations and lots of pictures and diagrams
of right and wrong ways to do things.

Unfortunately, you may have to pay to get a copy. There are also a whole
series of more specific specification documents for certain operations, but
IPC-610 will have most of what you need to know. At least, it is what I look
at first.

Section 7.3.5.9 allows trimming after soldering if the trimming does not
damage the solder. For certain classes of products, a visual inspection at
10X is required. Reflowing after cutting is also acceptable instead of
inspection. I believe there are special trimmers that minimize shock during
the trimming process.

I attempt to follow IPC-610, although my skills may not be fully up to the
task. At least I know where I fall short.

73,

Mark
W7MLG


On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 10:28 AM, Mark Petrovic <mspetro...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> While reading through my new K2 kit's control board assembly 
> instructions, I see that some builders prefer to trim the resistor and 
> capacitor leads before soldering.  I'm intrigued by this, and wonder 
> if someone who uses this technique can share their experiences. Do you 
> the solder the component from the top of the board or bottom?  How do 
> you keep the component in place during soldering?  I am assuming the 
> value of this technique is in the resulting lower profile of the
components on the backside of the board.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Mark
> AE6RT
>
> --
> Mark
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email 
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to 
> marklgoldb...@gmail.com
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[Mark Goldberg]

For commercial products, there is IPC-610. That is 400+ pages of
descriptions of how to determine acceptability of and  build electronic
assemblies. It has very clear explanations and lots of pictures and
diagrams of right and wrong ways to do things.

Unfortunately, you may have to pay to get a copy. There are also a whole
series of more specific specification documents for certain operations, but
IPC-610 will have most of what you need to know. At least, it is what I
look at first.

Section 7.3.5.9 allows trimming after soldering if the trimming does not
damage the solder. For certain classes of products, a visual inspection at
10X is required. Reflowing after cutting is also acceptable instead of
inspection. I believe there are special trimmers that minimize shock during
the trimming process.

I attempt to follow IPC-610, although my skills may not be fully up to the
task. At least I know where I fall short.

73,

Mark
W7MLG


On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 10:28 AM, Mark Petrovic 
wrote:

> While reading through my new K2 kit's control board assembly instructions,
> I see that some builders prefer to trim the resistor and capacitor leads
> before soldering.  I'm intrigued by this, and wonder if someone who uses
> this technique can share their experiences. Do you the solder the component
> from the top of the board or bottom?  How do you keep the component in
> place during soldering?  I am assuming the value of this technique is in
> the resulting lower profile of the components on the backside of the board.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Mark
> AE6RT
>
> --
> Mark
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to marklgoldb...@gmail.com
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[Charlie T]

I only use "non-GMO enhanced" solder that is free-ranged.

Also, only natural lead & pure tin mined by hand without polluting equipment is 
used with rosin (flux) from contented pine trees that have at least one wild 
endangered species bird nest in it.

73, Charlie k3ICH


 




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Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[Bill Johnson]

I use a Hakko 936, wrist strap and 700 degrees F. Very small tip and Kester 
.015.  I have used larger including a Radio shack el cheapo and much larger 
solder when I built my K2 #35 in Circa 1999.

72 & 73,
Bill
K9YEQ
FT’er for K2, KX1, KX3, KXPA100,  KAT500, W2, etc.

From: Mel Farrer <farrerfo...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 4:35 PM
To: Bill Johnson <k9...@live.com>
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim 
before or after soldering?

I do also carefully reflow..  Don't what any popping loose.  Usually with a 
finger on the part.  Wrist strap on of course.

Mel, K6KBE


From: Bill Johnson <k9...@live.com<mailto:k9...@live.com>>
To:
Cc: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net<mailto:elecraft@mailman.qth.net>" 
<elecraft@mailman.qth.net<mailto:elecraft@mailman.qth.net>>
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim 
before or after soldering?

I populate, solder, cut, re-solder.

72 & 73,
Bill
K9YEQ
FT’er for K2, KX1, KX3, KXPA100,  KAT500, W2, etc.

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net<mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net> 
<elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net<mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net>> On 
Behalf Of Nr4c
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 4:08 PM
To: hawley, charles j jr <c-haw...@illinois.edu<mailto:c-haw...@illinois.edu>>
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net<mailto:elecraft@mailman.qth.net>; JEROME SODUS 
<jso...@comcast.net<mailto:jso...@comcast.net>>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim 
before or after soldering?

And trimming before soldering allows the exposed copper “end” of the lead to be 
coated with solder thus eliminating corrosion to the bare copper.

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Mar 25, 2018, at 2:05 PM, hawley, charles j jr 
> <c-haw...@illinois.edu<mailto:c-haw...@illinois.edu>> wrote:
>
> That's probably good advice from NASA. However in 50 years, I've never 
> cracked a solder joint by trimming off the excess lead after soldering. I can 
> see how it could be imagined to happen and safer for sure if you are not 
> going to be able to fix it should it ever happen.
>
> Chuck Hawley
> c-haw...@illinois.edu<mailto:c-haw...@illinois.edu>
>
> Amateur Radio, KE9UW
> aka Jack, BMW Motorcycles
> 
> From: 
> elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net<mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net>
> [elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net<mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net>] 
> on behalf of JEROME SODUS
> [jso...@comcast.net<mailto:jso...@comcast.net>]
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 10:40 PM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net<mailto:elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim 
> before or after soldering?
>
> About Message#15 copied below
>
> Sorry but cutting wires after soldering is "bad practice"; NASA wanted the 
> soldered connection left undisturbed.
>
> If I ever saw an assembler or tech doing that "bad practice", they'd get a 
> verbal warning that first time and a written warning if it ever happened 
> again; but I had good, conscientious people and never had to do that.
>
> So, tin the wires if needed; position the part and then trim wires before 
> doing the final soldering.
>
> 73 Jerry KM3K
>
>
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 19:39:47 +
> From: Bill Johnson <k9...@live.com<mailto:k9...@live.com>>
> To: "ksto...@ac0h.net<mailto:ksto...@ac0h.net>" 
> <ksto...@ac0h.net<mailto:ksto...@ac0h.net>>, 'Mark Petrovic'
> <mspetro...@gmail.com<mailto:mspetro...@gmail.com>>, 
> "Elecraft@mailman.qth.net<mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>"
> <Elecraft@mailman.qth.net<mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation
> techniques: trim before or after soldering?
> Message-ID:
> <ro1p152mb09079615622cf62bbae2b4949c...@ro1p152mb0907.lamp152.prod.out<mailto:ro1p152mb09079615622cf62bbae2b4949c...@ro1p152mb0907.lamp152.prod.out>
> LOOK.COM>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Follow the instructions and solder as directed. There are components on both 
> sides as I recall with the majority on the top. The leads need be spread to 
> hold the components in place on the board. Once done soldering use a flush 
> cut wirecutter to remove the excess. Not a good idea to trim them before 
&g

Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[Mel Farrer via Elecraft]

I do also carefully reflow..  Don't what any popping loose.  Usually with a 
finger on the part.  Wrist strap on of course.
Mel, K6KBE

  From: Bill Johnson <k9...@live.com>
 To: 
Cc: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
 Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 2:31 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim 
before or after soldering?
   
I populate, solder, cut, re-solder.  

72 & 73,
Bill
K9YEQ
FT’er for K2, KX1, KX3, KXPA100,  KAT500, W2, etc. 

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net <elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net> On 
Behalf Of Nr4c
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 4:08 PM
To: hawley, charles j jr <c-haw...@illinois.edu>
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; JEROME SODUS <jso...@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim 
before or after soldering?

And trimming before soldering allows the exposed copper “end” of the lead to be 
coated with solder thus eliminating corrosion to the bare copper. 

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Mar 25, 2018, at 2:05 PM, hawley, charles j jr <c-haw...@illinois.edu> 
> wrote:
> 
> That's probably good advice from NASA. However in 50 years, I've never 
> cracked a solder joint by trimming off the excess lead after soldering. I can 
> see how it could be imagined to happen and safer for sure if you are not 
> going to be able to fix it should it ever happen.
> 
> Chuck Hawley
> c-haw...@illinois.edu
> 
> Amateur Radio, KE9UW
> aka Jack, BMW Motorcycles
> 
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
> [elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] on behalf of JEROME SODUS 
> [jso...@comcast.net]
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 10:40 PM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim 
> before or after soldering?
> 
> About Message#15 copied below
> 
> Sorry but cutting wires after soldering is "bad practice"; NASA wanted the 
> soldered connection left undisturbed.
> 
> If I ever saw an assembler or tech doing that "bad practice", they'd get a 
> verbal warning that first time and a written warning if it ever happened 
> again; but I had good, conscientious people and never had to do that.
> 
> So, tin the wires if needed; position the part and then trim wires before 
> doing the final soldering.
> 
> 73 Jerry KM3K
> 
> 
> 
> Message: 15
> Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 19:39:47 +
> From: Bill Johnson <k9...@live.com>
> To: "ksto...@ac0h.net" <ksto...@ac0h.net>, 'Mark Petrovic'
> <mspetro...@gmail.com>, "Elecraft@mailman.qth.net"
> <Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation
> techniques: trim before or after soldering?
> Message-ID:
> <ro1p152mb09079615622cf62bbae2b4949c...@ro1p152mb0907.lamp152.prod.out
> LOOK.COM>
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Follow the instructions and solder as directed. There are components on both 
> sides as I recall with the majority on the top. The leads need be spread to 
> hold the components in place on the board. Once done soldering use a flush 
> cut wirecutter to remove the excess. Not a good idea to trim them before 
> soldering.
> 

__
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Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[Bill Johnson]

I populate, solder, cut, re-solder.  

72 & 73,
Bill
K9YEQ
FT’er for K2, KX1, KX3, KXPA100,  KAT500, W2, etc. 

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net <elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net> On 
Behalf Of Nr4c
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 4:08 PM
To: hawley, charles j jr <c-haw...@illinois.edu>
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; JEROME SODUS <jso...@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim 
before or after soldering?

And trimming before soldering allows the exposed copper “end” of the lead to be 
coated with solder thus eliminating corrosion to the bare copper. 

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Mar 25, 2018, at 2:05 PM, hawley, charles j jr <c-haw...@illinois.edu> 
> wrote:
> 
> That's probably good advice from NASA. However in 50 years, I've never 
> cracked a solder joint by trimming off the excess lead after soldering. I can 
> see how it could be imagined to happen and safer for sure if you are not 
> going to be able to fix it should it ever happen.
> 
> Chuck Hawley
> c-haw...@illinois.edu
> 
> Amateur Radio, KE9UW
> aka Jack, BMW Motorcycles
> 
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
> [elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] on behalf of JEROME SODUS 
> [jso...@comcast.net]
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 10:40 PM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim 
> before or after soldering?
> 
> About Message#15 copied below
> 
> Sorry but cutting wires after soldering is "bad practice"; NASA wanted the 
> soldered connection left undisturbed.
> 
> If I ever saw an assembler or tech doing that "bad practice", they'd get a 
> verbal warning that first time and a written warning if it ever happened 
> again; but I had good, conscientious people and never had to do that.
> 
> So, tin the wires if needed; position the part and then trim wires before 
> doing the final soldering.
> 
> 73 Jerry KM3K
> 
> 
> 
> Message: 15
> Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 19:39:47 +
> From: Bill Johnson <k9...@live.com>
> To: "ksto...@ac0h.net" <ksto...@ac0h.net>, 'Mark Petrovic'
> <mspetro...@gmail.com>, "Elecraft@mailman.qth.net"
> <Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation
> techniques: trim before or after soldering?
> Message-ID:
> <ro1p152mb09079615622cf62bbae2b4949c...@ro1p152mb0907.lamp152.prod.out
> LOOK.COM>
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Follow the instructions and solder as directed. There are components on both 
> sides as I recall with the majority on the top. The leads need be spread to 
> hold the components in place on the board. Once done soldering use a flush 
> cut wirecutter to remove the excess. Not a good idea to trim them before 
> soldering.
> 

__
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Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[Nr4c]

And trimming before soldering allows the exposed copper “end” of the lead to be 
coated with solder thus eliminating corrosion to the bare copper. 

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Mar 25, 2018, at 2:05 PM, hawley, charles j jr <c-haw...@illinois.edu> 
> wrote:
> 
> That's probably good advice from NASA. However in 50 years, I've never 
> cracked a solder joint by trimming off the excess lead after soldering. I can 
> see how it could be imagined to happen and safer for sure if you are not 
> going to be able to fix it should it ever happen.
> 
> Chuck Hawley
> c-haw...@illinois.edu
> 
> Amateur Radio, KE9UW
> aka Jack, BMW Motorcycles
> 
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] on 
> behalf of JEROME SODUS [jso...@comcast.net]
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 10:40 PM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim 
> before or after soldering?
> 
> About Message#15 copied below
> 
> Sorry but cutting wires after soldering is "bad practice"; NASA wanted the 
> soldered connection left undisturbed.
> 
> If I ever saw an assembler or tech doing that "bad practice", they'd get a 
> verbal warning that first time and a written warning if it ever happened 
> again; but I had good, conscientious people and never had to do that.
> 
> So, tin the wires if needed; position the part and then trim wires before 
> doing the final soldering.
> 
> 73 Jerry KM3K
> 
> 
> 
> Message: 15
> Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 19:39:47 +
> From: Bill Johnson <k9...@live.com>
> To: "ksto...@ac0h.net" <ksto...@ac0h.net>, 'Mark Petrovic'
> <mspetro...@gmail.com>, "Elecraft@mailman.qth.net"
> <Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation
> techniques: trim before or after soldering?
> Message-ID:
> <ro1p152mb09079615622cf62bbae2b4949c...@ro1p152mb0907.lamp152.prod.outlook.com>
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Follow the instructions and solder as directed. There are components on both 
> sides as I recall with the majority on the top. The leads need be spread to 
> hold the components in place on the board. Once done soldering use a flush 
> cut wirecutter to remove the excess. Not a good idea to trim them before 
> soldering.
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[N2TK, Tony]

Jim,
There is actually a way to have your cake and eat it too. Supply the surface
mount parts or parts with leads with gold solder pads or leads. Most space
parts come this way anyways. These meet RoHS. Prior to mounting on the
boards use hot solder pot with SnPb solder to displace the gold (usually a
two pot process). But this causes its own set of problems.
Many space parts suppliers now offer a hot solder dip service with SnPb
(Tin/Lead) solder.
Usually the only place RoHS is mentioned is with Europe. But the space
community gets a dispensation in regards to using lead solder (SnPb). No one
wants to take a chance with whiskers in space. And it is amazing how fast
they can grow without an atmosphere. SnPb also now applies to most things
that fly real high, not just satellites.

It is common practice to use a clear conformal coating over the board. That
slows down the whisker process somewhat, especially if you play with
topology. Try repairing that board. 

Most satellites are designed for a 15 year lifetime. So whiskers are a big
issue. There are exceptions to that with some of the latest commercial
constellations. 
Microsats (10cm cube (1U) to several "U's") have a very short lifetime
(hours to a couple months) usually don't worry about whiskers or radiation
issues, so far.

It is amazing how long a pound of good SnPb solder will last. It is a good
investment.

Sorry for all the bandwidth and straying.
N2TK, Tony


-Original Message-
From: James F. Boehner MD [mailto:jboehne...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 2:10 PM
To: 'N2TK, Tony' <tony@verizon.net>; 'Doug Renwick' <ve...@sasktel.net>;
'JEROME SODUS' <jso...@comcast.net>; Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or
after soldering?

Tony,

Thanks for the very detailed explanation.  I know we are stressing the
moderators with these somewhat OT postings, but I have learned something
today.

Your note about lead in solder is very apropos.  I know that NASA is not
wanting to have solder "whiskers" in any of their critical space equipment:

https://nepp.nasa.gov/Whisker/background/index.htm 

I usually hunt down tin/lead solder at Hamfests.  When I'm asked why I'm
risking lead exposure when soldering, I quote a line from one of our former
Presidents:  "I don't inhale"!

Thanks for the great discussion!

'73 de JIM N2ZZ

-Original Message-
From: N2TK, Tony [mailto:tony@verizon.net]
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 12:58 PM
To: 'Doug Renwick'; 'James F. Boehner MD'; 'JEROME SODUS';
Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim
before or after soldering?

Hi Jim,
Doug is correct about military and space work. All parts are precut or have
spacers installed prior to board mounting. Between flux, solder/flux and
mechanical means the parts are held in place until the reflow oven. For some
programs, boards are not allowed to be reworked. Some programs allow rework.
There is a very detailed procedure for reworking a board - MIL-PRF-38535 and
MIL-STD-883.

But, our applications and most commercial applications do not see the
stress, temperature range or vibration that some of these mil and space
boards see. So, for most of us bending the leads to hold the part, solder
and cut is fine. You can re-solder after cutting to be sure.  

Years ago at a NASA meeting, they were told you do not need a tool meeting
MIL-STD and MIL-PRF to make a board that meets those specs. So, have the
right solder and right temp on the soldering tool and the right tip and make
a nice flowing shiny solder connection. 
By the way, military space solder is not RoHS compliant. There will be lead
in the solder.

73,
N2TK, Tony

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Doug Renwick
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 12:05 PM
To: 'James F. Boehner MD' <jboehne...@yahoo.com>; 'JEROME SODUS'
<jso...@comcast.net>; Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim
before or after soldering?

Heathkit recommended the "bad practice" saying "solder the leads to the foil
and cut off the excess lead lengths". Reprimanding a technician for doing
this is insane.
Doug

"Political correctness is a weapon used to silence people who tell the
truth" - Ayaan Hirsi Ali 

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of James F. Boehner MD
via Elecraft
Sent: March-25-18 9:33 AM
To: 'JEROME SODUS'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques:
trimbefore or after soldering?

Jerome,

Now this is interesting.  This is totally opposite of the way most of us
were taught to solder.  Among the kits I used to put together were Heathkit
and Rams

Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[David Gilbert]

I've soldered a LOT of components to circuit boards and I've always cut 
the leads prior to soldering.


I insert the component and flip the board over to see which direction 
the runs go from the lead.  I bend the lead in the direction of the run, 
which serves the purpose of holding the component in place while I 
insert more components and do the same to them.  Once I have several 
components installed I trim all the leads and solder them.


For me, this serves more than one purpose.

1.  It holds the part securely in place prior to soldering.
2.  The wire is pressed against the inside edge of the pad, which 
facilitates solder flow at the connection.
3.  I can get the tip of the soldering iron closer to the joint between 
the lead and the pad by putting it opposite the direction the lead was bent.
4.  It results in a MUCH lower profile on the back side of the board ... 
which means less chance of something shorting in tight spaces.
5.  I can more easily determine a bad solder joint.  If the solder 
doesn't wick along the run under the wire I know it didn't take. It's 
easy to end up with rosin between the joint without noticing it when the 
wire goes straight up.


The only downside I've ever had is like the other guy said ... it's a 
total PITA to replace a component that has been soldered like that.


Dave   AB7E




On 3/25/2018 9:18 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

I agree, the stated NASA "method" does amaze me.
First, the K2 is not likely to go a space journey.

Components with pre-cut leads may require 3 hands.  One to hold the 
component, one to hold the soldering iron and another to hold the solder.
I would assume that NASA directive was for wave-soldering boards and 
does not apply to hand soldering.


I personally have a guideline which says "do not ever trim an 
unsoldered lead" - watch as you trim and go back and solder it.


Of course, I am one who inserts multiple components before soldering.

I have never seen a failed solder connection in my work nor had any 
reports of solder joint failure from those I have built the K2, K1, 
KX1 or XVseries transverters.


73,
Don W3FPR


On 3/25/2018 11:33 AM, James F. Boehner MD via Elecraft wrote:

Jerome,

Now this is interesting.  This is totally opposite of the way most of us
were taught to solder.  Among the kits I used to put together were 
Heathkit

and Ramsey, both of whom recommended securing the parts in place by
spreading the leads, soldering, and then cutting the wires close to the
solder blob, checking for shorts.  I assume that goes for Elecraft 
also, but

I have not built any of their radios as kits, so not sure.

So how did NASA handle the potential difficulties?  Did they have precut
parts?  Did the tech have to place the part in the board and cut the 
leads
first?  If the part was loose, how was it held close to the board, 
owing to
the fact that holding the solder and the iron took two hands? What if 
the
lead length was overestimated and potentially could cause a short?  
Could
the wire be cut and the joint reheated, or did the part have to be 
removed,

recut and reinserted?


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[Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[James F. Boehner MD via Elecraft]

Tony,

Thanks for the very detailed explanation.  I know we are stressing the
moderators with these somewhat OT postings, but I have learned something
today.

Your note about lead in solder is very apropos.  I know that NASA is not
wanting to have solder "whiskers" in any of their critical space equipment:

https://nepp.nasa.gov/Whisker/background/index.htm 

I usually hunt down tin/lead solder at Hamfests.  When I'm asked why I'm
risking lead exposure when soldering, I quote a line from one of our former
Presidents:  "I don't inhale"!

Thanks for the great discussion!

'73 de JIM N2ZZ

-Original Message-
From: N2TK, Tony [mailto:tony@verizon.net] 
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 12:58 PM
To: 'Doug Renwick'; 'James F. Boehner MD'; 'JEROME SODUS';
Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim
before or after soldering?

Hi Jim,
Doug is correct about military and space work. All parts are precut or have
spacers installed prior to board mounting. Between flux, solder/flux and
mechanical means the parts are held in place until the reflow oven. For some
programs, boards are not allowed to be reworked. Some programs allow rework.
There is a very detailed procedure for reworking a board - MIL-PRF-38535 and
MIL-STD-883.

But, our applications and most commercial applications do not see the
stress, temperature range or vibration that some of these mil and space
boards see. So, for most of us bending the leads to hold the part, solder
and cut is fine. You can re-solder after cutting to be sure.  

Years ago at a NASA meeting, they were told you do not need a tool meeting
MIL-STD and MIL-PRF to make a board that meets those specs. So, have the
right solder and right temp on the soldering tool and the right tip and make
a nice flowing shiny solder connection. 
By the way, military space solder is not RoHS compliant. There will be lead
in the solder.

73,
N2TK, Tony

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Doug Renwick
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 12:05 PM
To: 'James F. Boehner MD' <jboehne...@yahoo.com>; 'JEROME SODUS'
<jso...@comcast.net>; Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim
before or after soldering?

Heathkit recommended the "bad practice" saying "solder the leads to the foil
and cut off the excess lead lengths". Reprimanding a technician for doing
this is insane.
Doug

"Political correctness is a weapon used to silence people who tell the
truth" - Ayaan Hirsi Ali 

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of James F. Boehner MD
via Elecraft
Sent: March-25-18 9:33 AM
To: 'JEROME SODUS'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques:
trimbefore or after soldering?

Jerome,

Now this is interesting.  This is totally opposite of the way most of us
were taught to solder.  Among the kits I used to put together were Heathkit
and Ramsey, both of whom recommended securing the parts in place by
spreading the leads, soldering, and then cutting the wires close to the
solder blob, checking for shorts.  I assume that goes for Elecraft also, but
I have not built any of their radios as kits, so not sure.

So how did NASA handle the potential difficulties?  Did they have precut
parts?  Did the tech have to place the part in the board and cut the leads
first?  If the part was loose, how was it held close to the board, owing to
the fact that holding the solder and the iron took two hands?  What if the
lead length was overestimated and potentially could cause a short?  Could
the wire be cut and the joint reheated, or did the part have to be removed,
recut and reinserted?

Just trying to picture the operation.

'73 de JIM N2ZZ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of JEROME SODUS
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 11:40 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim
before or after soldering?

About Message#15 copied below

Sorry but cutting wires after soldering is "bad practice"; NASA wanted the
soldered connection left undisturbed.

If I ever saw an assembler or tech doing that "bad practice", they'd get a
verbal warning that first time and a written warning if it ever happened
again; but I had good, conscientious people and never had to do that.

So, tin the wires if needed; position the part and then trim wires before
doing the final soldering.

73 Jerry KM3K



Message: 15
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 19:39:47 +
From: Bill Johnson <k9...@live.com>
To: "ksto...@ac0h.net" <ksto...@ac0h.net>, 'Mark Petrovic'
<mspetro...@gmail.com>, "Elecraft@mailm

Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[hawley, charles j jr]

That's probably good advice from NASA. However in 50 years, I've never cracked 
a solder joint by trimming off the excess lead after soldering. I can see how 
it could be imagined to happen and safer for sure if you are not going to be 
able to fix it should it ever happen.

Chuck Hawley
 c-haw...@illinois.edu

 Amateur Radio, KE9UW
 aka Jack, BMW Motorcycles

From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] on 
behalf of JEROME SODUS [jso...@comcast.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 10:40 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim 
before or after soldering?

About Message#15 copied below

Sorry but cutting wires after soldering is "bad practice"; NASA wanted the 
soldered connection left undisturbed.

If I ever saw an assembler or tech doing that "bad practice", they'd get a 
verbal warning that first time and a written warning if it ever happened again; 
but I had good, conscientious people and never had to do that.

So, tin the wires if needed; position the part and then trim wires before doing 
the final soldering.

73 Jerry KM3K



Message: 15
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 19:39:47 +
From: Bill Johnson <k9...@live.com>
To: "ksto...@ac0h.net" <ksto...@ac0h.net>, 'Mark Petrovic'
<mspetro...@gmail.com>, "Elecraft@mailman.qth.net"
<Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation
techniques: trim before or after soldering?
Message-ID:
<ro1p152mb09079615622cf62bbae2b4949c...@ro1p152mb0907.lamp152.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Follow the instructions and solder as directed. There are components on both 
sides as I recall with the majority on the top. The leads need be spread to 
hold the components in place on the board. Once done soldering use a flush cut 
wirecutter to remove the excess. Not a good idea to trim them before soldering.

72 & 73,
Bill
K9YEQ
FT'er for K2, KX1, KX3, KXPA100, KAT500, W2, etc.
__
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Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[N2TK, Tony]

Hi Jim,
Doug is correct about military and space work. All parts are precut or have
spacers installed prior to board mounting. Between flux, solder/flux and
mechanical means the parts are held in place until the reflow oven. For some
programs, boards are not allowed to be reworked. Some programs allow rework.
There is a very detailed procedure for reworking a board - MIL-PRF-38535 and
MIL-STD-883.

But, our applications and most commercial applications do not see the
stress, temperature range or vibration that some of these mil and space
boards see. So, for most of us bending the leads to hold the part, solder
and cut is fine. You can re-solder after cutting to be sure.  

Years ago at a NASA meeting, they were told you do not need a tool meeting
MIL-STD and MIL-PRF to make a board that meets those specs. So, have the
right solder and right temp on the soldering tool and the right tip and make
a nice flowing shiny solder connection. 
By the way, military space solder is not RoHS compliant. There will be lead
in the solder.

73,
N2TK, Tony

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Doug Renwick
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 12:05 PM
To: 'James F. Boehner MD' <jboehne...@yahoo.com>; 'JEROME SODUS'
<jso...@comcast.net>; Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim
before or after soldering?

Heathkit recommended the "bad practice" saying "solder the leads to the foil
and cut off the excess lead lengths". Reprimanding a technician for doing
this is insane.
Doug

"Political correctness is a weapon used to silence people who tell the
truth" - Ayaan Hirsi Ali 

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of James F. Boehner MD
via Elecraft
Sent: March-25-18 9:33 AM
To: 'JEROME SODUS'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques:
trimbefore or after soldering?

Jerome,

Now this is interesting.  This is totally opposite of the way most of us
were taught to solder.  Among the kits I used to put together were Heathkit
and Ramsey, both of whom recommended securing the parts in place by
spreading the leads, soldering, and then cutting the wires close to the
solder blob, checking for shorts.  I assume that goes for Elecraft also, but
I have not built any of their radios as kits, so not sure.

So how did NASA handle the potential difficulties?  Did they have precut
parts?  Did the tech have to place the part in the board and cut the leads
first?  If the part was loose, how was it held close to the board, owing to
the fact that holding the solder and the iron took two hands?  What if the
lead length was overestimated and potentially could cause a short?  Could
the wire be cut and the joint reheated, or did the part have to be removed,
recut and reinserted?

Just trying to picture the operation.

'73 de JIM N2ZZ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of JEROME SODUS
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 11:40 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim
before or after soldering?

About Message#15 copied below

Sorry but cutting wires after soldering is "bad practice"; NASA wanted the
soldered connection left undisturbed.

If I ever saw an assembler or tech doing that "bad practice", they'd get a
verbal warning that first time and a written warning if it ever happened
again; but I had good, conscientious people and never had to do that.

So, tin the wires if needed; position the part and then trim wires before
doing the final soldering.

73 Jerry KM3K



Message: 15
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 19:39:47 +
From: Bill Johnson <k9...@live.com>
To: "ksto...@ac0h.net" <ksto...@ac0h.net>, 'Mark Petrovic'
<mspetro...@gmail.com>, "Elecraft@mailman.qth.net"
<Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation
techniques: trim before or after soldering?
Message-ID:
<ro1p152mb09079615622cf62bbae2b4949c...@ro1p152mb0907.lamp152.prod.OUTLOOK.C
OM>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Follow the instructions and solder as directed. There are components on both
sides as I recall with the majority on the top. The leads need be spread to
hold the components in place on the board. Once done soldering use a flush
cut wirecutter to remove the excess. Not a good idea to trim them before
soldering.

72 & 73,
Bill
K9YEQ
FT'er for K2, KX1, KX3, KXPA100, KAT500, W2, etc.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[David Olean]

I was NASA certified to solder components back in the late 60's. I don't 
remember much except that stripping wires teflon wires required thermal 
wire strippers, and each solder joint used the minimum amount of solder 
and wires were wrapped around terminals for a specified number of 
degrees. The meniscus formed by the solder joint had to be concave.  All 
flux had to be removed with ethyl alcohol. All in an effort to reduce 
weight of the total package and still be reasonably solid to pass the 
shake tests.  I would never use NASA techniques for normal solder jobs.  
There is something to be said about .062 or .125 rolls of solder  and 
big lumps of solder on the joints! :-).


Dave K1WHS (solder blob expert!)


On 3/25/2018 3:33 PM, James F. Boehner MD via Elecraft wrote:

Jerome,

Now this is interesting.  This is totally opposite of the way most of us
were taught to solder.  Among the kits I used to put together were Heathkit
and Ramsey, both of whom recommended securing the parts in place by
spreading the leads, soldering, and then cutting the wires close to the
solder blob, checking for shorts.  I assume that goes for Elecraft also, but
I have not built any of their radios as kits, so not sure.

So how did NASA handle the potential difficulties?  Did they have precut
parts?  Did the tech have to place the part in the board and cut the leads
first?  If the part was loose, how was it held close to the board, owing to
the fact that holding the solder and the iron took two hands?  What if the
lead length was overestimated and potentially could cause a short?  Could
the wire be cut and the joint reheated, or did the part have to be removed,
recut and reinserted?

Just trying to picture the operation.

'73 de JIM N2ZZ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of JEROME SODUS
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 11:40 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim
before or after soldering?

About Message#15 copied below

Sorry but cutting wires after soldering is "bad practice"; NASA wanted the
soldered connection left undisturbed.

If I ever saw an assembler or tech doing that "bad practice", they'd get a
verbal warning that first time and a written warning if it ever happened
again; but I had good, conscientious people and never had to do that.

So, tin the wires if needed; position the part and then trim wires before
doing the final soldering.

73 Jerry KM3K



Message: 15
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 19:39:47 +
From: Bill Johnson <k9...@live.com>
To: "ksto...@ac0h.net" <ksto...@ac0h.net>, 'Mark Petrovic'
<mspetro...@gmail.com>, "Elecraft@mailman.qth.net"
<Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation
techniques: trim before or after soldering?
Message-ID:
<ro1p152mb09079615622cf62bbae2b4949c...@ro1p152mb0907.lamp152.prod.OUTLOOK.C
OM>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Follow the instructions and solder as directed. There are components on both
sides as I recall with the majority on the top. The leads need be spread to
hold the components in place on the board. Once done soldering use a flush
cut wirecutter to remove the excess. Not a good idea to trim them before
soldering.

72 & 73,
Bill
K9YEQ
FT'er for K2, KX1, KX3, KXPA100, KAT500, W2, etc.
__
Elecraft mailing list
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Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[Art Greenberg]

I guess if you're building something that goes into a spacecraft or is life 
support equipment, you want to do everything you can to make the product as 
reliable as possible. In most cases, ham gear, especially hand assembled ham 
gear, doesn't fall into that category.

Mass produced through-hole assembly where the PCB is wave soldered requires the 
parts to be held in place and leads trimmed prior to soldering. I recall a 
"staking" tool that would flatten the component lead very close to the PCB and 
trim off the excess in one operation.

Replacing parts where the components were staked in is a PITA.

-- 
Art Greenberg
WA2LLN
a...@artg.tv

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018, at 12:18, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> I agree, the stated NASA "method" does amaze me.
> First, the K2 is not likely to go a space journey.
> 
> Components with pre-cut leads may require 3 hands.  One to hold the 
> component, one to hold the soldering iron and another to hold the solder.
> I would assume that NASA directive was for wave-soldering boards and 
> does not apply to hand soldering.
> 
> I personally have a guideline which says "do not ever trim an unsoldered 
> lead" - watch as you trim and go back and solder it.
> 
> Of course, I am one who inserts multiple components before soldering.
> 
> I have never seen a failed solder connection in my work nor had any 
> reports of solder joint failure from those I have built the K2, K1, KX1 
> or XVseries transverters.
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> 
> 
> On 3/25/2018 11:33 AM, James F. Boehner MD via Elecraft wrote:
> > Jerome,
> > 
> > Now this is interesting.  This is totally opposite of the way most of us
> > were taught to solder.  Among the kits I used to put together were Heathkit
> > and Ramsey, both of whom recommended securing the parts in place by
> > spreading the leads, soldering, and then cutting the wires close to the
> > solder blob, checking for shorts.  I assume that goes for Elecraft also, but
> > I have not built any of their radios as kits, so not sure.
> > 
> > So how did NASA handle the potential difficulties?  Did they have precut
> > parts?  Did the tech have to place the part in the board and cut the leads
> > first?  If the part was loose, how was it held close to the board, owing to
> > the fact that holding the solder and the iron took two hands?  What if the
> > lead length was overestimated and potentially could cause a short?  Could
> > the wire be cut and the joint reheated, or did the part have to be removed,
> > recut and reinserted?
> > 
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[Don Wilhelm]

I agree, the stated NASA "method" does amaze me.
First, the K2 is not likely to go a space journey.

Components with pre-cut leads may require 3 hands.  One to hold the 
component, one to hold the soldering iron and another to hold the solder.
I would assume that NASA directive was for wave-soldering boards and 
does not apply to hand soldering.


I personally have a guideline which says "do not ever trim an unsoldered 
lead" - watch as you trim and go back and solder it.


Of course, I am one who inserts multiple components before soldering.

I have never seen a failed solder connection in my work nor had any 
reports of solder joint failure from those I have built the K2, K1, KX1 
or XVseries transverters.


73,
Don W3FPR


On 3/25/2018 11:33 AM, James F. Boehner MD via Elecraft wrote:

Jerome,

Now this is interesting.  This is totally opposite of the way most of us
were taught to solder.  Among the kits I used to put together were Heathkit
and Ramsey, both of whom recommended securing the parts in place by
spreading the leads, soldering, and then cutting the wires close to the
solder blob, checking for shorts.  I assume that goes for Elecraft also, but
I have not built any of their radios as kits, so not sure.

So how did NASA handle the potential difficulties?  Did they have precut
parts?  Did the tech have to place the part in the board and cut the leads
first?  If the part was loose, how was it held close to the board, owing to
the fact that holding the solder and the iron took two hands?  What if the
lead length was overestimated and potentially could cause a short?  Could
the wire be cut and the joint reheated, or did the part have to be removed,
recut and reinserted?


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Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[Doug Renwick]

Heathkit recommended the "bad practice" saying "solder the leads to the foil
and cut off the excess lead lengths". Reprimanding a technician for doing
this is insane.
Doug

"Political correctness is a weapon used to silence people who tell the
truth" - Ayaan Hirsi Ali 

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of James F. Boehner MD
via Elecraft
Sent: March-25-18 9:33 AM
To: 'JEROME SODUS'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques:
trimbefore or after soldering?

Jerome,

Now this is interesting.  This is totally opposite of the way most of us
were taught to solder.  Among the kits I used to put together were Heathkit
and Ramsey, both of whom recommended securing the parts in place by
spreading the leads, soldering, and then cutting the wires close to the
solder blob, checking for shorts.  I assume that goes for Elecraft also, but
I have not built any of their radios as kits, so not sure.

So how did NASA handle the potential difficulties?  Did they have precut
parts?  Did the tech have to place the part in the board and cut the leads
first?  If the part was loose, how was it held close to the board, owing to
the fact that holding the solder and the iron took two hands?  What if the
lead length was overestimated and potentially could cause a short?  Could
the wire be cut and the joint reheated, or did the part have to be removed,
recut and reinserted?

Just trying to picture the operation.

'73 de JIM N2ZZ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of JEROME SODUS
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 11:40 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim
before or after soldering?

About Message#15 copied below

Sorry but cutting wires after soldering is "bad practice"; NASA wanted the
soldered connection left undisturbed.

If I ever saw an assembler or tech doing that "bad practice", they'd get a
verbal warning that first time and a written warning if it ever happened
again; but I had good, conscientious people and never had to do that.

So, tin the wires if needed; position the part and then trim wires before
doing the final soldering.

73 Jerry KM3K



Message: 15
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 19:39:47 +
From: Bill Johnson <k9...@live.com>
To: "ksto...@ac0h.net" <ksto...@ac0h.net>, 'Mark Petrovic'
<mspetro...@gmail.com>, "Elecraft@mailman.qth.net"
<Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation
techniques: trim before or after soldering?
Message-ID:
<ro1p152mb09079615622cf62bbae2b4949c...@ro1p152mb0907.lamp152.prod.OUTLOOK.C
OM>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Follow the instructions and solder as directed. There are components on both
sides as I recall with the majority on the top. The leads need be spread to
hold the components in place on the board. Once done soldering use a flush
cut wirecutter to remove the excess. Not a good idea to trim them before
soldering.

72 & 73,
Bill
K9YEQ
FT'er for K2, KX1, KX3, KXPA100, KAT500, W2, etc.
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[Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[James F. Boehner MD via Elecraft]

Jerome,

Now this is interesting.  This is totally opposite of the way most of us
were taught to solder.  Among the kits I used to put together were Heathkit
and Ramsey, both of whom recommended securing the parts in place by
spreading the leads, soldering, and then cutting the wires close to the
solder blob, checking for shorts.  I assume that goes for Elecraft also, but
I have not built any of their radios as kits, so not sure.

So how did NASA handle the potential difficulties?  Did they have precut
parts?  Did the tech have to place the part in the board and cut the leads
first?  If the part was loose, how was it held close to the board, owing to
the fact that holding the solder and the iron took two hands?  What if the
lead length was overestimated and potentially could cause a short?  Could
the wire be cut and the joint reheated, or did the part have to be removed,
recut and reinserted?

Just trying to picture the operation.

'73 de JIM N2ZZ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of JEROME SODUS
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 11:40 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim
before or after soldering?

About Message#15 copied below

Sorry but cutting wires after soldering is "bad practice"; NASA wanted the
soldered connection left undisturbed.

If I ever saw an assembler or tech doing that "bad practice", they'd get a
verbal warning that first time and a written warning if it ever happened
again; but I had good, conscientious people and never had to do that.

So, tin the wires if needed; position the part and then trim wires before
doing the final soldering.

73 Jerry KM3K



Message: 15
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 19:39:47 +
From: Bill Johnson <k9...@live.com>
To: "ksto...@ac0h.net" <ksto...@ac0h.net>, 'Mark Petrovic'
<mspetro...@gmail.com>, "Elecraft@mailman.qth.net"
<Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation
techniques: trim before or after soldering?
Message-ID:
<ro1p152mb09079615622cf62bbae2b4949c...@ro1p152mb0907.lamp152.prod.OUTLOOK.C
OM>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Follow the instructions and solder as directed. There are components on both
sides as I recall with the majority on the top. The leads need be spread to
hold the components in place on the board. Once done soldering use a flush
cut wirecutter to remove the excess. Not a good idea to trim them before
soldering.

72 & 73,
Bill
K9YEQ
FT'er for K2, KX1, KX3, KXPA100, KAT500, W2, etc.
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Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[JEROME SODUS]

About Message#15 copied below

Sorry but cutting wires after soldering is "bad practice"; NASA wanted the 
soldered connection left undisturbed.

If I ever saw an assembler or tech doing that "bad practice", they'd get a 
verbal warning that first time and a written warning if it ever happened again; 
but I had good, conscientious people and never had to do that.

So, tin the wires if needed; position the part and then trim wires before doing 
the final soldering.

73 Jerry KM3K



Message: 15
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 19:39:47 +
From: Bill Johnson <k9...@live.com>
To: "ksto...@ac0h.net" <ksto...@ac0h.net>, 'Mark Petrovic'
<mspetro...@gmail.com>, "Elecraft@mailman.qth.net"
<Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation
techniques: trim before or after soldering?
Message-ID:
<ro1p152mb09079615622cf62bbae2b4949c...@ro1p152mb0907.lamp152.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Follow the instructions and solder as directed. There are components on both 
sides as I recall with the majority on the top. The leads need be spread to 
hold the components in place on the board. Once done soldering use a flush cut 
wirecutter to remove the excess. Not a good idea to trim them before soldering.

72 & 73,
Bill
K9YEQ
FT'er for K2, KX1, KX3, KXPA100, KAT500, W2, etc.
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Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[Don Wilhelm]

Actually one of the important points in soldering with thru-hole 
components with plated hole boards is to watch the solder flow as you 
solder.  You should see the solder wick down into the hole which 
minimizes the chances that the lead trimming process will cause a 'shock 
wave' that will fracture the solder.


Put the soldering iron in contact with both the component lead and the 
solder pad (and keep it there).  Apply the solder to the joint on the 
opposite side from the iron (a very small bit of solder at the iron tip 
will aid heat transfer).  Then watch the solder flow.  It should flow 
out to an almost invisible edge on both the component lead and the 
solder pad, then keep the heat on just a bit longer and the solder will 
wick down into the thru-plated hold.


The entire process should take at least 2 seconds, but likely 3 seconds. 
 With heavy leads on components, it can take up to 5 seconds.


One thing that can help with fractured solder is the use of 'eutectic' 
solder alloys - the 63/37 alloy is one of them.  Those have no plastic 
state - they go directly from molten to solid, and there is little 
danger of a "cold solder joint" if anything moves during the plastic 
state.  The more commonly available 60/40 alloy does not have that 
property, and must not be moved while the solder is cooling.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/24/2018 6:51 PM, Howie WA3MCK wrote:

When I went to “mil spec soldering school” at Sanders Associates in Nashua
NH back in the 80’s we were taught to install the component and
mechanically secure it BEFORE soldering. This included clipping the leads
of resistors, capacitors, and so forth.
Why?
When you clip a component lead it creates a very small “shock wave” that
passes through the lead and on to the component. In some rare cases this
MIGHT weaken the solder joint.
Our boards were even weighed before and after assembly to estimate the
total amount of solder applied.
ALL joints were inspected under a stereoscope.
  All of this (and more) was part of the quality control and assurance
program.
This helped to reduce MTBF (mean time before failure) for our circuit
boards.
In my case I installed BRD-6/7 RDF surveillance receivers on Nuclear Attack
Boats.
Failure was not tolerated.

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Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[Howie WA3MCK]

When I went to “mil spec soldering school” at Sanders Associates in Nashua
NH back in the 80’s we were taught to install the component and
mechanically secure it BEFORE soldering. This included clipping the leads
of resistors, capacitors, and so forth.
Why?
When you clip a component lead it creates a very small “shock wave” that
passes through the lead and on to the component. In some rare cases this
MIGHT weaken the solder joint.
Our boards were even weighed before and after assembly to estimate the
total amount of solder applied.
ALL joints were inspected under a stereoscope.
 All of this (and more) was part of the quality control and assurance
program.
This helped to reduce MTBF (mean time before failure) for our circuit
boards.
In my case I installed BRD-6/7 RDF surveillance receivers on Nuclear Attack
Boats.
Failure was not tolerated.
Howie WA3MCK

On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 13:29 Mark Petrovic  wrote:

> While reading through my new K2 kit's control board assembly instructions,
> I see that some builders prefer to trim the resistor and capacitor leads
> before soldering.  I'm intrigued by this, and wonder if someone who uses
> this technique can share their experiences. Do you the solder the component
> from the top of the board or bottom?  How do you keep the component in
> place during soldering?  I am assuming the value of this technique is in
> the resulting lower profile of the components on the backside of the board.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Mark
> AE6RT
>
> --
> Mark
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[Don Wilhelm]

Mark,

It is usual for most components to mount on the top side of the board 
and solder from the bottom.  Splay the leads slightly to keep the 
components from falling out when you turn the board over.


For components mounted on the bottom side of the board, I normally put 
them in the same way, and I will choose whether to solder them from the 
side the component is mounted on, or if there is enough space on the top 
of the board to solder from the top side without endangering the already 
mounted components on that side, I will solder from the bottom.


With resistors and inductors, it is easy to solder on the side they are 
mounted, but with many capacitors that is not possible because the 
solder pads and capacitor pins are obscured by the component body.


To pre-trim the leads and solder on the same side as the component can 
be difficult at times.
Mounting components without pre-trimming the leads can be troublesome in 
some areas where components are already mounted on the other side.  You 
need flush trimmers with a "nose" that will reach the lead to be cut 
betwen already mounted components.
If you determine that you will not be able to trim the leads easily, 
then pre-trim the leads and solder from the same side as the component.


Generally, there is only a need to pre-trim in selected areas.

The KSB2 option is one of the option boards where you might want to 
consider pre-trimming the leads of the resistors mounted on the bottom 
of the board.


73,
Don W3FPR


On 3/24/2018 1:28 PM, Mark Petrovic wrote:

While reading through my new K2 kit's control board assembly instructions,
I see that some builders prefer to trim the resistor and capacitor leads
before soldering.  I'm intrigued by this, and wonder if someone who uses
this technique can share their experiences. Do you the solder the component
from the top of the board or bottom?  How do you keep the component in
place during soldering?  I am assuming the value of this technique is in
the resulting lower profile of the components on the backside of the board.

Thank you.

Mark
AE6RT


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Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[Bill Johnson]

Follow the instructions and solder as directed.  There are components on both 
sides as I recall with the majority on the top.  The leads need be spread to 
hold the components in place on the board.  Once done soldering use a flush cut 
wirecutter to remove the excess. Not a good idea to trim them before soldering.

72 & 73,
Bill
K9YEQ
FT'er for K2, KX1, KX3, KXPA100,  KAT500, W2, etc. 

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net <elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net> On 
Behalf Of ksto...@ac0h.net
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 12:59 PM
To: 'Mark Petrovic' <mspetro...@gmail.com>; Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim 
before or after soldering?

If I remember correctly they got soldered from the top side.

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net <elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net> On 
Behalf Of Mark Petrovic
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 12:28 PM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before 
or after soldering?

While reading through my new K2 kit's control board assembly instructions, I 
see that some builders prefer to trim the resistor and capacitor leads before 
soldering.  I'm intrigued by this, and wonder if someone who uses this 
technique can share their experiences. Do you the solder the component from the 
top of the board or bottom?  How do you keep the component in place during 
soldering?  I am assuming the value of this technique is in the resulting lower 
profile of the components on the backside of the board.

Thank you.

Mark
AE6RT

--
Mark
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Re: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[kstover]

If I remember correctly they got soldered from the top side.

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net <elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net> On
Behalf Of Mark Petrovic
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 12:28 PM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim
before or after soldering?

While reading through my new K2 kit's control board assembly instructions, I
see that some builders prefer to trim the resistor and capacitor leads
before soldering.  I'm intrigued by this, and wonder if someone who uses
this technique can share their experiences. Do you the solder the component
from the top of the board or bottom?  How do you keep the component in place
during soldering?  I am assuming the value of this technique is in the
resulting lower profile of the components on the backside of the board.

Thank you.

Mark
AE6RT

--
Mark
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[Elecraft] Resistor and capacitor installation techniques: trim before or after soldering?

[Mark Petrovic]

While reading through my new K2 kit's control board assembly instructions,
I see that some builders prefer to trim the resistor and capacitor leads
before soldering.  I'm intrigued by this, and wonder if someone who uses
this technique can share their experiences. Do you the solder the component
from the top of the board or bottom?  How do you keep the component in
place during soldering?  I am assuming the value of this technique is in
the resulting lower profile of the components on the backside of the board.

Thank you.

Mark
AE6RT

-- 
Mark
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com