Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts
On 3/30/2014 10:38 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote: especially something like fatigue is pretty subjective As a retired pro audio engineer and member of both the AES and the Acoustical Society, I've had to understand issues like this. The study of human perception and reaction to sound is called psychoacoustics, and the Acoustical Society has many members studying this stuff at very high levels. It is VERY well known that listening fatigue related to the listening system correlates with two factors -- distortion and loudness. Poor spectral balance is a form of distortion, but the most obnoxious distortions are non-linear distortion -- what we try to describe as harmonic distortion and intermodulation distortion -- and distortions associated with A/D and D/A conversions. As Al Lorona has noted, the distortion produced in ANY system is strongly related to signal levels, and how gains are set. Do it wrong and you can make things sound nasty in a hurry; do it well and everything is mellow. if you think your radio is fatiguing, you probably don't know about all that great stuff that Al posted. As to the digital distortions -- much of what we hear occurs if we are listening too close to the the top or bottom of the converters. Again, getting the gains set right avoids that. I measured my first K3 (in the first year of production) and found excessive distortion in the Line Outputs that resulted from wrong-headed design of the output stage (it was done by a digital guy, who added resistors between the output stage and the transformer because he incorrectly thought audio stages were600 ohms -- they have not been for at least 50 years). I communicated that to Wayne, and it was quickly corrected. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts
Jim. Last week I had two audio test performed, performed by two different persons, on my hearing. Do you think it would be advantageous for one to use their audiogram plots to set the receive equalization in the K3? At age 75 (and spending years on a Nave aircraft carrier) of course my low frequency range is 'normal' and then my high frequency, starting around 800 Hz starts dropping drastically. I do have some doubts about these audio test because if your hearing is 'good', they have no way of selling their over-expensive hearing aids. 73, Tom - W4BQF Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts On 3/30/2014 10:38 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote: especially something like fatigue is pretty subjective As a retired pro audio engineer and member of both the AES and the Acoustical Society, I've had to understand issues like this. The study of human perception and reaction to sound is called psychoacoustics, and the Acoustical Society has many members studying this stuff at very high levels. It is VERY well known that listening fatigue related to the listening system correlates with two factors -- distortion and loudness. Poor spectral balance is a form of distortion, but the most obnoxious distortions are non-linear distortion -- what we try to describe as harmonic distortion and intermodulation distortion -- and distortions associated with A/D and D/A conversions. As Al Lorona has noted, the distortion produced in ANY system is strongly related to signal levels, and how gains are set. Do it wrong and you can make things sound nasty in a hurry; do it well and everything is mellow. if you think your radio is fatiguing, you probably don't know about all that great stuff that Al posted. As to the digital distortions -- much of what we hear occurs if we are listening too close to the the top or bottom of the converters. Again, getting the gains set right avoids that. I measured my first K3 (in the first year of production) and found excessive distortion in the Line Outputs that resulted from wrong-headed design of the output stage (it was done by a digital guy, who added resistors between the output stage and the transformer because he incorrectly thought audio stages were600 ohms -- they have not been for at least 50 years). I communicated that to Wayne, and it was quickly corrected. 73, Jim K9YC __ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts
I agree, Al. Mine may have a slight speaker resonance (not sure, only heard it once) but not a big deal since earphones are not affected. Phil W7OX On 3/30/14, 10:24 PM, Al Lorona wrote: 1) another K3 ...Downside: Expensive, It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like others, I find the K3 can be kind of harsh to listen to for many hours. Really? The K3 is the least-fatiguing receiver I've ever heard. Al W6LX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts
When I have thoughts about SO2R my thoughts run toward RS-232, antenna switching, antenna isolation, audio switching, key switching, headphone switching, etc. I would think audio compensation and design would be a concern in individual transceiver design rather than having much to do with SO2R. I am also concerned about which, if any auxiliary control boxes to purchase or build and which loggers to use for every day DXing and Contesting. Is any one else having such thoughts? When I hear fidelity mentioned as I tune across the bands, I just keep on tuning because I can't even hear the fidelity, much less apply it to SSB. I can identify with the Navy Carrier Vet even though my hearing loss is due to a combination of Measles, Asian Flu, 2500 hours in a B-52, 1000 hours as a private pilot, 60 years of Morse, not to mention 30 years in a Chemical Plant around gas and steam valves, compressors, turbines and the like. I can't tell the difference between a K3 and the best fidelity that Best Buy has to offer. I am a Chemical Plant Control Engineer, not an Audio Engineer. Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman K5EWJ Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts
Hi Tom, Yes, there certainly is a conflict of interest involved when expensive devices are sold by the prescribing physician. Same deal with eyeglasses. :) On the other hand, human senses are logarithmic in their response, and our brains compensate a lot for any deficiencies. For that reason, we get accustomed to loss of high end, which is quite common for people our age, and made worse by noise exposures like yours. My XYL and I both have significant hearing loss, mine a bit less than hers, and we're considering hearing aids. BTW -- when you get to that, W6OAT is on his second hearing aid, and he loves the new one he got from Costco. Yes, you can use RXEQ to compensate for at least some of your hearing loss. My friend K6DGW has rather severe hearing loss, and at my suggestion, he's done exactly that. What you would do is set all of the lower bands for maximum cut, and boost the higher bands. As a starting point, set the four lowest bands to maximum cut (-18 dB), set the fifth band to cut about 9 dB, set the highest band for about +10 dB, the band below it for about +6 dB. Listen to the result, and tweak the settings of the higher bands by ear. See you in Dayton? 73, Jim On 3/31/2014 6:07 AM, Chester Alderman wrote: Last week I had two audio test performed, performed by two different persons, on my hearing. Do you think it would be advantageous for one to use their audiogram plots to set the receive equalization in the K3? At age 75 (and spending years on a Nave aircraft carrier) of course my low frequency range is 'normal' and then my high frequency, starting around 800 Hz starts dropping drastically. I do have some doubts about these audio test because if your hearing is 'good', they have no way of selling their over-expensive hearing aids. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts
1) another K3 ...Downside: Expensive, It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like others, I find the K3 can be kind of harsh to listen to for many hours. Really? The K3 is the least-fatiguing receiver I've ever heard. It makes me wonder if folks are making judicious use of the many tools available to make a K3 sound good. The RF Gain needs to be backed off and the RX EQ adjusted to compensate for your ears, your speakers or headphones, your bandwidth, your room, and your mood. Same with HI and LO cut. You may have the bandwidth too wide (or too narrow) for the purpose. Just because somebody says that 2.8 kHz or 1.8 kHz is the 'right' bandwidth means nothing. The AGC system allows a wide range of settings that make big differences. A good hour is required to set it up properly. I suspect many don't know how or haven't bothered. Their opinions are worthless to me. IN GENERAL -- I'm generalizing here-- in general, you will have the ATT engaged and/or your RF Gain backed off of max; your RX EQ will be something other than flat; you will have spent a day dialing in your AGC settings. If not, your K3 is probably not set to the optimum. I'm not saying anything new here. Someone should set up a place where we can upload recordings made with a K3 to dispel this continuing myth that the K3 is 'noisy', 'harsh', 'fatiguing', etc. And sorry, YouTube videos made by pointing a camera at a K3 and picking up room sound do *not* count. On the other hand, if you participate in contests, most contesters' audio is so bad that, yes, I can understand your fatigue during a contest. Al W6LX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts
You may well be correct. As the sort of endless discussion :) has shown ...a lot of audio issues ..especially something like fatigue is pretty subjective and I guarantee I haven't gotten the various adjustments just so. I find it more of an issue on SSB than CW and it is something you see on some of the eHam reviews. I find W4TV's measurements persuasive as opposed to others (or my own) anecdotal experiences, so I'll play around with settings some more. 73 Steve KL7SB -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Al Lorona Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 9:24 PM To: 'Elecraft Reflector' Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts 1) another K3 ...Downside: Expensive, It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like others, I find the K3 can be kind of harsh to listen to for many hours. Really? The K3 is the least-fatiguing receiver I've ever heard. It makes me wonder if folks are making judicious use of the many tools available to make a K3 sound good. The RF Gain needs to be backed off and the RX EQ adjusted to compensate for your ears, your speakers or headphones, your bandwidth, your room, and your mood. Same with HI and LO cut. You may have the bandwidth too wide (or too narrow) for the purpose. Just because somebody says that 2.8 kHz or 1.8 kHz is the 'right' bandwidth means nothing. The AGC system allows a wide range of settings that make big differences. A good hour is required to set it up properly. I suspect many don't know how or haven't bothered. Their opinions are worthless to me. IN GENERAL -- I'm generalizing here-- in general, you will have the ATT engaged and/or your RF Gain backed off of max; your RX EQ will be something other than flat; you will have spent a day dialing in your AGC settings. If not, your K3 is probably not set to the optimum. I'm not saying anything new here. Someone should set up a place where we can upload recordings made with a K3 to dispel this continuing myth that the K3 is 'noisy', 'harsh', 'fatiguing', etc. And sorry, YouTube videos made by pointing a camera at a K3 and picking up room sound do *not* count. On the other hand, if you participate in contests, most contesters' audio is so bad that, yes, I can understand your fatigue during a contest. Al W6LX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to sbl...@acsalaska.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts
Steve, I'm going through the same exact issue as you. I currently have the K3/P3/KAT500/KPA500 combo with a MK2R+ connected to it. I already have an Ameritron AL-1200 for a backup amp (I'm working anything I can hear with my K Line so I took the AL-1200 off line for now). My plan is to get a 2nd rig and use my loaded K3 as the main radio in combination with the AL-1200 amp. Since, in theory, I won't be jumping around band to band with the main run rig tuning the AL-1200 won't be that big a deal. Now to your question on a 2nd rig. I went through the same exact analysis as your doing comparing the K3, KX3 and TS-590. After researching the KX3 it's lacking FSK and there is no direct support from Microham for the rig, so I crossed it off the list. By the time you get the KX3/amp combo you start approaching the cost of a basic K3. I joined the Yahoo group for the TS-590 and there are a lot of issues, apparently, with power spikes when the rig first transmits. That would probably trip the KPA-500, the Expert amp or one of the high end auto tune tube amps. I really gave the TS-590 some serious thought for the 2nd rig since top contester N2IC uses a pair of them, but he's driving manual tune tube amps. So I've crossed the TS-590 off of my list. I've decided to target another basic K3 for my 2nd rig. I won't get many options. Probably just the rig with a couple of 8 pole filters to start with. I really think there is an advantage of having two identical rigs from an operational stand point. Now if I can just come up with some hardware to share my current antenna system (a couple tribanders on the same tower and monoband antennas on 40, 80 and 160) between the two rigs. The triplexers (for 10,15,20) on the market are interesting but my 500 watt station is caught in the middle. There are 200 watt triplexers and 1.5kw triplexers with prices of a few hundred $'s a a few thousand $'s. I do have room for a 2nd tower, so I'll have to go through a cost and operational comparison of triplexers or a 2nd tower with antennas. I picked up a used Acom 2s1 t/r switch I may experiment with. It won't give me a true SO2R station but it will at least allow me to use two rigs with one antenna system/amp for now. In the mean time I'm having a blast with my K line. I worked VU4K on 10m and 15m ssb the last two evenings. Rich - N5ZC On 3/27/2014 9:25 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote: Hey all: I've been the owner of a K3, KAT500, and KPA500, and a Microham MK2R+ for about 9 months now. Love em all. The one additional thing I wanted was a Legal Limit amp (I'm a fairly active contester). Bought an Expert 2K-FA and just put that online. So far so good. The one clear downside to the 2K-FA is ...that it is loud (actually quieter than most High Power amps but still loud). With that said ...and given the fact that the Expert Amp SO2R isn't really SO2R (second antenna is rx only) ...I'm going to pair a second rig with the KPA500 and use it as a backup contest rig and as main for non contest Qs where I don't need the extra 3DB. Right now the second rig is a Kenwood TS2000 ...which isn't really a contest or DX quality transceiver. The three options I'm mulling over are .. 1) another K3 ...Upside: SO2R is most intuitive with identical xcvrs, plays well with KPA500/KAT500, identical cabling ...Downside: Expensive, It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like others, I find the K3 can be kind of harsh to listen to for many hours. 2) Kenwood TS590 ...Upside: Biggest bang for the buck (IMO) contest capable xcvr, Good audio ..Downside: Looks like it has a weird audio codec (meaning not the standard Kenwood). I see that N1MM works with it ...but I wonder about other software plus the MK2R+. 3) KX3+KXPA100(+existing KAT/KPA500) ..Upside: The KX3 really intrigues me. In a perfect world ...the Second Rig would be one I could easily take portable. The Sherwood reviews seem to indicate that the KX3 rcv performance is comparable to the K3, and I'm a real fan of Elecraft in general. Downside: Clearly there is no technical reason one couldn't chain all this together, but I wonder if anyone actually has done it, and if there were any configuration issues Any input would be appreciated. Thanks and 73 Steve KL7SB __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to rtho...@rthorne.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts
On 3/27/2014 7:25 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote: another K3 ...Upside: SO2R is most intuitive with identical xcvrs, plays well with KPA500/KAT500, identical cabling ...Downside: Expensive, Consider a stripped down K3 for the 2nd radio. You don't need an antenna tuner, buy it without the 2nd RX, minimal filters. It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like others, I find the K3 can be kind of harsh to listen to for many hours. Gee, I haven't experienced that, and I've used mine for lots of long contests. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts
Jim, like you, I have not experienced the harshness of the K3, but maybe it is because my hearing rolls off at 2500 to 2700 Hz very drastically which makes me wonder if those who have the difficulty have more a more normal hearing range and hi-fi speakers or headsets, thus could benefit with a low pass filter on the audio. Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman K5EWJ Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts On 3/27/2014 7:25 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote: another K3 ...Upside: SO2R is most intuitive with identical xcvrs, plays well with KPA500/KAT500, identical cabling ...Downside: Expensive, Consider a stripped down K3 for the 2nd radio. You don't need an antenna tuner, buy it without the 2nd RX, minimal filters. It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like others, I find the K3 can be kind of harsh to listen to for many hours. Gee, I haven't experienced that, and I've used mine for lots of long contests. 73, Jim K9YC __ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts
Some thoughts inserted. Cheers, Fred KE7X Now if I can just come up with some hardware to share my current antenna system (a couple tribanders on the same tower and monoband antennas on 40, 80 and 160) between the two rigs. The triplexers (for 10,15,20) on the market are interesting but my 500 watt station is caught in the middle. There are 200 watt triplexers and 1.5kw triplexers with prices of a few hundred $'s a a few thousand $'s. I do have room for a 2nd tower, so I'll have to go through a cost and operational comparison of triplexers or a 2nd tower with antennas. You won't need a triplexer if you have two separate tribanders. Wouldn't a good solution be a cross-bar switch like a 6-pack or similar with decoders like a KRC2 to switch them? You would want band pass filters automatically switched too. I picked up a used Acom 2s1 t/r switch I may experiment with. It won't give me a true SO2R station but it will at least allow me to use two rigs with one antenna system/amp for now. I don't know much about that but when it is isolating the rig not transmitting wouldn't you lose the ability to listen on the second radio. That's a key advantage of SO2R over SO2V. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts
Hi Richard: It sounds like we are on about the exact same page :) The biggest issue here of course is money ...I've spent ..well I don't even want to guess how much in the last year or so on ..the K3 Line ..plus the Expert Amp, plus an IRLP Micronode and so on and so on. Sooner or later I'm going to end up with another K3 for the remoting possibilities ..if nothing else. I'm not patient enough I guess to order a basic model ..then pull the cover off and add things as I go ...so my only option on that is to go as loaded as I'm going to be and that's gonna end up costing 4 to 5K. KX3 is out for the reasons you described. I've heard about the same issues you have as far as ALC spikes. Supposedly there is a partial fix in firmware, and a promised hardware fix ..but that promise has been out there for a couple of years. I'm gonna try and dig up a contester or two who uses the 590 with a solid state amp and see if they have issues. I expect that ultimately ..I'll end up buying all three ..I want the KX3 to play with for holiday dxpedition kinds of things (I operate from J7 once in awhile, and in general travel a fair amount) and a K3 for general backup and remoting). If the chances look good that I can reliably drive the amps with the TS590 ..that will probably be the first purchase ...since ...well ..I can afford it! BTW, I hate you! :) Now I'm looking at the 4O3A Triplexer and thinking Hmmm ..I wonder if there is enough RF isolation for it to work with my Log Periodic. I don't have room for a second tower ..and really am pushing the Wind Load Capacity of my guyed 70 feet of Rohn 25 with the LPDA and a VHF/UHF beam. If I had a triplexer, it would make SO2R a lot more helpful ..since for now ..Radio 2 can only use my various wire antennas. Have I mentioned just how much of a money suck this hobby is! 73 Steve KL7SB -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Richard Thorne Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 3:43 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts Steve, I'm going through the same exact issue as you. I currently have the K3/P3/KAT500/KPA500 combo with a MK2R+ connected to it. I already have an Ameritron AL-1200 for a backup amp (I'm working anything I can hear with my K Line so I took the AL-1200 off line for now). My plan is to get a 2nd rig and use my loaded K3 as the main radio in combination with the AL-1200 amp. Since, in theory, I won't be jumping around band to band with the main run rig tuning the AL-1200 won't be that big a deal. Now to your question on a 2nd rig. I went through the same exact analysis as your doing comparing the K3, KX3 and TS-590. After researching the KX3 it's lacking FSK and there is no direct support from Microham for the rig, so I crossed it off the list. By the time you get the KX3/amp combo you start approaching the cost of a basic K3. I joined the Yahoo group for the TS-590 and there are a lot of issues, apparently, with power spikes when the rig first transmits. That would probably trip the KPA-500, the Expert amp or one of the high end auto tune tube amps. I really gave the TS-590 some serious thought for the 2nd rig since top contester N2IC uses a pair of them, but he's driving manual tune tube amps. So I've crossed the TS-590 off of my list. I've decided to target another basic K3 for my 2nd rig. I won't get many options. Probably just the rig with a couple of 8 pole filters to start with. I really think there is an advantage of having two identical rigs from an operational stand point. Now if I can just come up with some hardware to share my current antenna system (a couple tribanders on the same tower and monoband antennas on 40, 80 and 160) between the two rigs. The triplexers (for 10,15,20) on the market are interesting but my 500 watt station is caught in the middle. There are 200 watt triplexers and 1.5kw triplexers with prices of a few hundred $'s a a few thousand $'s. I do have room for a 2nd tower, so I'll have to go through a cost and operational comparison of triplexers or a 2nd tower with antennas. I picked up a used Acom 2s1 t/r switch I may experiment with. It won't give me a true SO2R station but it will at least allow me to use two rigs with one antenna system/amp for now. In the mean time I'm having a blast with my K line. I worked VU4K on 10m and 15m ssb the last two evenings. Rich - N5ZC On 3/27/2014 9:25 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote: Hey all: I've been the owner of a K3, KAT500, and KPA500, and a Microham MK2R+ for about 9 months now. Love em all. The one additional thing I wanted was a Legal Limit amp (I'm a fairly active contester). Bought an Expert 2K-FA and just put that online. So far so good. The one clear downside to the 2K-FA is ...that it is loud (actually quieter than most High Power amps but still loud). With that said ...and given the fact that the Expert Amp SO2R isn't
Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts
Steve, re Have I mentioned just how much of a money suck this hobby is!, we all know -- and also that this email reflector is dangerous :-) Other things happen, too. A local ham recently replaced his FTdx5000 with a K3/P3, then a week later added KPA/KAT500. I had to go look at it yesterday, so now I must have the amp, too. Oh well, it's a great hobby! 73, Phil w7ox On 3/28/14, 10:45 AM, Stephen Bloom wrote: Hi Richard: It sounds like we are on about the exact same page :) The biggest issue here of course is money ...I've spent ..well I don't even want to guess how much in the last year or so on ..the K3 Line ..plus the Expert Amp, plus an IRLP Micronode and so on and so on. Sooner or later I'm going to end up with another K3 for the remoting possibilities ..if nothing else. I'm not patient enough I guess to order a basic model ..then pull the cover off and add things as I go ...so my only option on that is to go as loaded as I'm going to be and that's gonna end up costing 4 to 5K. KX3 is out for the reasons you described. I've heard about the same issues you have as far as ALC spikes. Supposedly there is a partial fix in firmware, and a promised hardware fix ..but that promise has been out there for a couple of years. I'm gonna try and dig up a contester or two who uses the 590 with a solid state amp and see if they have issues. I expect that ultimately ..I'll end up buying all three ..I want the KX3 to play with for holiday dxpedition kinds of things (I operate from J7 once in awhile, and in general travel a fair amount) and a K3 for general backup and remoting). If the chances look good that I can reliably drive the amps with the TS590 ..that will probably be the first purchase ...since ...well ..I can afford it! BTW, I hate you! :) Now I'm looking at the 4O3A Triplexer and thinking Hmmm ..I wonder if there is enough RF isolation for it to work with my Log Periodic. I don't have room for a second tower ..and really am pushing the Wind Load Capacity of my guyed 70 feet of Rohn 25 with the LPDA and a VHF/UHF beam. If I had a triplexer, it would make SO2R a lot more helpful ..since for now ..Radio 2 can only use my various wire antennas. Have I mentioned just how much of a money suck this hobby is! 73 Steve KL7SB __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts
maybe it is because my hearing rolls off at 2500 to 2700 Hz very drastically which makes me wonder if those who have the difficulty have more a more normal hearing range and hi-fi speakers or headsets, thus could benefit with a low pass filter on the audio. I've connected the front panel headphone output to an audio spectrum analyzer good to over 25 KHz and seen no increase in the noise floor (AF gain down) above the background -110 dB/hz at 100 Hz decreasing to -130 dB/hz at 20 KHz. There is no hump and fewer than a half- dozen spikes to -100 dB representing clock/digital leakage. By way of comparison, with the AF gain control at normal listening levels (between 9:00 ad 11:00) the background noise in the 200 - 4000 Hz range is -50 to -60 dB/hz (all referenced to 1V p-p) and the response drops quickly to the -115 dB/hz range between 2700 and 4500 Hz depending on the choice of roofing filter/DSP settings. I can find *no* hint of hiss in the headphone audio of s/n 1450 ... Yes, I can drive the headphone amplifier into distortion if I push a -33 dBm signal into the antenna and turn the AF gain up well beyond 12:00 (as if I had inefficient headphones) but that's bordering on abuse (still, it would be nice if the headphone amp were a bit more stout than 100 mW/channel - particularly with the number of headphones with greater 8 or 16 Ohm impedance - and the speaker amplifier were a bit more than 3 W/channel. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 3/28/2014 1:44 PM, WILLIS COOKE wrote: Jim, like you, I have not experienced the harshness of the K3, but maybe it is because my hearing rolls off at 2500 to 2700 Hz very drastically which makes me wonder if those who have the difficulty have more a more normal hearing range and hi-fi speakers or headsets, thus could benefit with a low pass filter on the audio. Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman K5EWJ Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts On 3/27/2014 7:25 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote: another K3 ...Upside: SO2R is most intuitive with identical xcvrs, plays well with KPA500/KAT500, identical cabling ...Downside: Expensive, Consider a stripped down K3 for the 2nd radio. You don't need an antenna tuner, buy it without the 2nd RX, minimal filters. It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like others, I find the K3 can be kind of harsh to listen to for many hours. Gee, I haven't experienced that, and I've used mine for lots of long contests. 73, Jim K9YC __ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to li...@subich.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts
I went thru much of the same when I moved on from TT Orion -- FWIW another top contester K6LL uses a pair of K3 in SO2R. In fact I am pretty sure he told me he does not have the sub rx in either but that was sometime ago. He and N5IC are as good as they come. Hank K7HP I really gave the TS-590 some serious thought for the 2nd rig since top contester N2IC uses a pair of them, but he's driving manual tune tube amps. So I've crossed the TS-590 off of my list. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] SO2R thoughts
Hey all: I've been the owner of a K3, KAT500, and KPA500, and a Microham MK2R+ for about 9 months now. Love em all. The one additional thing I wanted was a Legal Limit amp (I'm a fairly active contester). Bought an Expert 2K-FA and just put that online. So far so good. The one clear downside to the 2K-FA is ...that it is loud (actually quieter than most High Power amps but still loud). With that said ...and given the fact that the Expert Amp SO2R isn't really SO2R (second antenna is rx only) ...I'm going to pair a second rig with the KPA500 and use it as a backup contest rig and as main for non contest Qs where I don't need the extra 3DB. Right now the second rig is a Kenwood TS2000 ...which isn't really a contest or DX quality transceiver. The three options I'm mulling over are .. 1) another K3 ...Upside: SO2R is most intuitive with identical xcvrs, plays well with KPA500/KAT500, identical cabling ...Downside: Expensive, It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like others, I find the K3 can be kind of harsh to listen to for many hours. 2) Kenwood TS590 ...Upside: Biggest bang for the buck (IMO) contest capable xcvr, Good audio ..Downside: Looks like it has a weird audio codec (meaning not the standard Kenwood). I see that N1MM works with it ...but I wonder about other software plus the MK2R+. 3) KX3+KXPA100(+existing KAT/KPA500) ..Upside: The KX3 really intrigues me. In a perfect world ...the Second Rig would be one I could easily take portable. The Sherwood reviews seem to indicate that the KX3 rcv performance is comparable to the K3, and I'm a real fan of Elecraft in general. Downside: Clearly there is no technical reason one couldn't chain all this together, but I wonder if anyone actually has done it, and if there were any configuration issues Any input would be appreciated. Thanks and 73 Steve KL7SB __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts
Steve, I would suggest the KX3 + KXPA100 as the best solution (since you also want a portable rig). The display and controls of the KX3 are similar to those on the K3, so you don't have to concentrate as much on the differences between the 2 radios. If it were not for your statement about portable, I would say the 2nd K3 would be your best solution to SO2R operation. 73, Don W3FPR On 3/27/2014 10:25 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote: Hey all: I've been the owner of a K3, KAT500, and KPA500, and a Microham MK2R+ for about 9 months now. Love em all. The one additional thing I wanted was a Legal Limit amp (I'm a fairly active contester). Bought an Expert 2K-FA and just put that online. So far so good. The one clear downside to the 2K-FA is ...that it is loud (actually quieter than most High Power amps but still loud). With that said ...and given the fact that the Expert Amp SO2R isn't really SO2R (second antenna is rx only) ...I'm going to pair a second rig with the KPA500 and use it as a backup contest rig and as main for non contest Qs where I don't need the extra 3DB. Right now the second rig is a Kenwood TS2000 ...which isn't really a contest or DX quality transceiver. The three options I'm mulling over are .. 1) another K3 ...Upside: SO2R is most intuitive with identical xcvrs, plays well with KPA500/KAT500, identical cabling ...Downside: Expensive, It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like others, I find the K3 can be kind of harsh to listen to for many hours. 2) Kenwood TS590 ...Upside: Biggest bang for the buck (IMO) contest capable xcvr, Good audio ..Downside: Looks like it has a weird audio codec (meaning not the standard Kenwood). I see that N1MM works with it ...but I wonder about other software plus the MK2R+. 3) KX3+KXPA100(+existing KAT/KPA500) ..Upside: The KX3 really intrigues me. In a perfect world ...the Second Rig would be one I could easily take portable. The Sherwood reviews seem to indicate that the KX3 rcv performance is comparable to the K3, and I'm a real fan of Elecraft in general. Downside: Clearly there is no technical reason one couldn't chain all this together, but I wonder if anyone actually has done it, and if there were any configuration issues __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] SO2R thoughts
I have two K3's. One decked out with all the bells and whistles and the other one is pretty basic. Having two exact rigs is helpful especially when tired. The KX3 also sounds like a fun option. TS590 pretty good bang for the bucks. I like to support small business and made in America when possible. Hard not to support the Elecraft gang! Mike W0MU On 3/27/2014 8:25 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote: Hey all: I've been the owner of a K3, KAT500, and KPA500, and a Microham MK2R+ for about 9 months now. Love em all. The one additional thing I wanted was a Legal Limit amp (I'm a fairly active contester). Bought an Expert 2K-FA and just put that online. So far so good. The one clear downside to the 2K-FA is ...that it is loud (actually quieter than most High Power amps but still loud). With that said ...and given the fact that the Expert Amp SO2R isn't really SO2R (second antenna is rx only) ...I'm going to pair a second rig with the KPA500 and use it as a backup contest rig and as main for non contest Qs where I don't need the extra 3DB. Right now the second rig is a Kenwood TS2000 ...which isn't really a contest or DX quality transceiver. The three options I'm mulling over are .. 1) another K3 ...Upside: SO2R is most intuitive with identical xcvrs, plays well with KPA500/KAT500, identical cabling ...Downside: Expensive, It's more fun to have different rigs to play with, and like others, I find the K3 can be kind of harsh to listen to for many hours. 2) Kenwood TS590 ...Upside: Biggest bang for the buck (IMO) contest capable xcvr, Good audio ..Downside: Looks like it has a weird audio codec (meaning not the standard Kenwood). I see that N1MM works with it ...but I wonder about other software plus the MK2R+. 3) KX3+KXPA100(+existing KAT/KPA500) ..Upside: The KX3 really intrigues me. In a perfect world ...the Second Rig would be one I could easily take portable. The Sherwood reviews seem to indicate that the KX3 rcv performance is comparable to the K3, and I'm a real fan of Elecraft in general. Downside: Clearly there is no technical reason one couldn't chain all this together, but I wonder if anyone actually has done it, and if there were any configuration issues Any input would be appreciated. Thanks and 73 Steve KL7SB __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to w...@w0mu.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
