Re: [Elecraft] Systematic error in spots as heard by K3

2022-07-29 Thread Mike Harris via Elecraft 
I should clarify a loose and potentially misleading last sentence. The 
GPSDO 10MHz external reference clocks a frequency counter that monitors 
the TXCO actual frequency and this number is used to control the synths, 
not the number you have set in REF CAL doing WWV calibration. Nothing 
touches the TXCO.


Regards,

Mike VP8NO

The drift of the internal TCXO is easily displayed from a
cold start. The GPSDO ref osc knocks out the drift.
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Re: [Elecraft] Systematic error in spots as heard by K3

2022-07-29 Thread Andy Durbin 
"k3wyc said:

> ... The spotted frequency should be the suppressed carrier frequency ...

I don't think so. Most modern CW rigs that I am aware of, including the K3,
display the actual transmitted frequency on the dial, not the SSB
suppressed carrier frequency."


I agree.  Kenwood TS-590 also offfsets dial frequency by CW pitch.  Sorry for 
the error.

Suppressed carrier frequency would only be applicable if using MCW with the 
modulation source external to the rig. 

Andy, k3wyc
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Re: [Elecraft] Systematic error in spots as heard by K3

2022-07-29 Thread Pete Smith N4ZR 
I agree, Rich - I had used the Elecraft calibration procedure with WWV 
to make sure it's dead zero-beat, when I first noticed this phenomenon.  
Done at 10 MHz before, this time at 15 MHz,  which seemed to be slightly 
different, so now we'll see how the spots sound.  Could be all it was - 
more precise calibration at the higher frequency.  I hope so.


Wish I didn't have such a tin ear hi.

73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
web server at .
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

On 7/28/2022 11:20 PM, Richard Ferch wrote:

k3wyc said:


... The spotted frequency should be the suppressed carrier frequency ...

I don't think so. Most modern CW rigs that I am aware of, including the K3,
display the actual transmitted frequency on the dial, not the SSB
suppressed carrier frequency.

That is why the spotted frequency should not depend on the choice of
sidetone if the rig is tuned to the signal correctly. If the displayed
frequency on the dial was the suppressed carrier frequency, then spotted
frequencies would depend on the sidetone, but that is fortunately not the
case with most modern radios. The microprocessor in the radio takes care of
the offset calculation.

If someone has a rig without adjustable sidetone and they prefer to listen
to a different tone than their rig's sidetone, they need to be aware that
when they listen this way they will be transmitting on a different
frequency than the signal they are receiving, and also that frequencies
they spot will be incorrect.

If spots seem to be consistently to one side or the other of your sidetone,
though, my first thought would be that there could be a frequency
calibration error in your rig. An easy way to check would be to tune to the
WWV carrier with the rig in CW mode. With the dial on exactly 10.000 MHz,
the carrier tone you hear in the receiver should be the same as your
sidetone. In SSB, on the other hand, the WWV carrier should not be audible
(it should be at 0 Hz) with the dial on exactly 10.000 MHz.

73,
Rich VE3KI
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Re: [Elecraft] Systematic error in spots as heard by K3

2022-07-28 Thread Richard Ferch 
k3wyc said:

> ... The spotted frequency should be the suppressed carrier frequency ...

I don't think so. Most modern CW rigs that I am aware of, including the K3,
display the actual transmitted frequency on the dial, not the SSB
suppressed carrier frequency.

That is why the spotted frequency should not depend on the choice of
sidetone if the rig is tuned to the signal correctly. If the displayed
frequency on the dial was the suppressed carrier frequency, then spotted
frequencies would depend on the sidetone, but that is fortunately not the
case with most modern radios. The microprocessor in the radio takes care of
the offset calculation.

If someone has a rig without adjustable sidetone and they prefer to listen
to a different tone than their rig's sidetone, they need to be aware that
when they listen this way they will be transmitting on a different
frequency than the signal they are receiving, and also that frequencies
they spot will be incorrect.

If spots seem to be consistently to one side or the other of your sidetone,
though, my first thought would be that there could be a frequency
calibration error in your rig. An easy way to check would be to tune to the
WWV carrier with the rig in CW mode. With the dial on exactly 10.000 MHz,
the carrier tone you hear in the receiver should be the same as your
sidetone. In SSB, on the other hand, the WWV carrier should not be audible
(it should be at 0 Hz) with the dial on exactly 10.000 MHz.

73,
Rich VE3KI
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[Elecraft] Systematic error in spots as heard by K3

2022-07-28 Thread Andy Durbin 
"If the spotter was using a rig without an adjustable sidetone, wouldn't the 
frequency they spot be dependent upon the tone they prefer to hear?"

The spotted frequency should be the suppressed carrier frequency which is 
independent of the choice of tone frequency.  Remember there are very few true 
CW transmitters in use now and most use DSP MCW of a USB or LSB suppressed 
carrier signal.

Go back to the days when we tuned to max signal then offset the BFO for desired 
pitch.  The TX station frequency was the carrier frequency and completely 
independent of our BFO setting.

I knew there was a problem with getting consistent RTTY spots because some spot 
mark frequency and some spot suppressed carrier frequency.  I was not aware of 
any ambiguity with CW spots.

Andy, k3wyc
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Re: [Elecraft] Systematic error in spots as heard by K3

2022-07-28 Thread Drew AF2Z 
I think they just round up. If I transmit on 14051.0 I get reported 
variously as 14051.0 and 14051.1 but never 14050.9


73,
Drew
AF2Z



On 07/28/22 16:25, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
My K3 is set up to zero-beat at 520 Hz, and its calibration has been 
checked against WWV and adjusted to with 2 Hz.  That said, I'm surprised 
when operating assisted to note that most spotted stations, when clicked 
on, sound significantly higher in pitch than my sidetone.  It seems 
logical, given that the cluster network rounds up or down to the nearest 
0.1 KHz, that spotted signals should be about evenly distributed  (half 
higher than my sidetone, half lower).  But that's not the case.


Any suggestions?


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Re: [Elecraft] Systematic error in spots as heard by K3

2022-07-28 Thread David Gilbert 


If the spotter was using a rig without an adjustable sidetone, wouldn't 
the frequency they spot be dependent upon the tone they prefer to hear?


I haven't thought that through enough to know if it's relevant or not 
... just musing out loud.


73,
Dave   AB7E



On 7/28/2022 2:25 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
My K3 is set up to zero-beat at 520 Hz, and its calibration has been 
checked against WWV and adjusted to with 2 Hz.  That said, I'm 
surprised when operating assisted to note that most spotted stations, 
when clicked on, sound significantly higher in pitch than my 
sidetone.  It seems logical, given that the cluster network rounds up 
or down to the nearest 0.1 KHz, that spotted signals should be about 
evenly distributed  (half higher than my sidetone, half lower).  But 
that's not the case.


Any suggestions?



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[Elecraft] Systematic error in spots as heard by K3

2022-07-28 Thread Pete Smith N4ZR 
My K3 is set up to zero-beat at 520 Hz, and its calibration has been 
checked against WWV and adjusted to with 2 Hz.  That said, I'm surprised 
when operating assisted to note that most spotted stations, when clicked 
on, sound significantly higher in pitch than my sidetone.  It seems 
logical, given that the cluster network rounds up or down to the nearest 
0.1 KHz, that spotted signals should be about evenly distributed  (half 
higher than my sidetone, half lower).  But that's not the case.


Any suggestions?

--
73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
web server at .
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

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