Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[John Oppenheimer]

501 ladder line #18 solid CCS copper thickness is 0.0717 mm
http://copperweld.com/sites/copperweld.com/files/w30ccs-ed5230.pdf

RF skin saturation is well below 1 MHz using the calculator:
http://owenduffy.net/calc/SkinDepth.htm

551 is #18, 19/30 stranded, #30 CCS copper thickness is 0.0178 mm

John KN5L

On 02/01/2017 01:18 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
> This may not always be possible.
> 
> Copper-clad steel exists because it's stronger than copper.  Wind, ice, 
> or simply a long span can exceed the strength of copper, and then you 
> don't have an antenna at all.
> 
> "Over-engineering" by making the wire bigger also makes it heaver and 
> gives it a larger cross section (more windage).
> 
> I guess you could take your large diameter copper and wrap it around 
> something else to hold it up, but that's basically the idea behind 
> copper clad steel.
> 
> To me, the earlier post means that not all copper-clad wire is suitable 
> for all antennas -- with #553 as an example.
> 
> 73 -- Lynn
> 
> On 2/1/2017 10:57 AM, Clay Autery wrote:
>> Well then...  that seems to vindicate my desire to avoid CCS wire and
>> "overengineer" with the use of larger wire diameters.
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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

This may not always be possible.

Copper-clad steel exists because it's stronger than copper.  Wind, ice, 
or simply a long span can exceed the strength of copper, and then you 
don't have an antenna at all.


"Over-engineering" by making the wire bigger also makes it heaver and 
gives it a larger cross section (more windage).


I guess you could take your large diameter copper and wrap it around 
something else to hold it up, but that's basically the idea behind 
copper clad steel.


To me, the earlier post means that not all copper-clad wire is suitable 
for all antennas -- with #553 as an example.


73 -- Lynn

On 2/1/2017 10:57 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

Well then...  that seems to vindicate my desire to avoid CCS wire and
"overengineer" with the use of larger wire diameters.


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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Clay Autery]

Thanks...  and if I missed a response from the OP, thank as well.

Well then...  that seems to vindicate my desire to avoid CCS wire and
"overengineer" with the use of larger wire diameters.
And it clues me in to pay attention to every single detail when
designing a transmission line system.

Thanks again...

73,

__
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MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 2/1/2017 6:25 AM, John Oppenheimer wrote:
> Wireman 553 uses a 19 strand Copper Clad Steal (CCS) conductor which
> results with very thin copper cladding. 553 is skin saturated at about
> 15 MHz. The loss at 1.8 MHz is approximately 0.21 dB per 100 feet.
>
> http://www.kn5l.net/wm553/
>
> Using EZNEC and SimSmith for the antenna below results with 13.8 dB
> transmission line loss. Slightly greater loss then Wes' calculations.
>
> John KN5L
>
> On 01/31/2017 04:12 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>> A 130' dipole, 60' high on 160 has a feed point Z of ~4.5 -j1200.  One 
>> hundred 
>> feet of Wireman 553 (typical ladderline) will transform this to ~7.5 +j16 at 
>> the 
>> input.  The total loss in this "low-loss" line is over 12 dB.
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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[John Oppenheimer]

Wireman 553 uses a 19 strand Copper Clad Steal (CCS) conductor which
results with very thin copper cladding. 553 is skin saturated at about
15 MHz. The loss at 1.8 MHz is approximately 0.21 dB per 100 feet.

http://www.kn5l.net/wm553/

Using EZNEC and SimSmith for the antenna below results with 13.8 dB
transmission line loss. Slightly greater loss then Wes' calculations.

John KN5L

On 01/31/2017 04:12 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
> A 130' dipole, 60' high on 160 has a feed point Z of ~4.5 -j1200.  One 
> hundred 
> feet of Wireman 553 (typical ladderline) will transform this to ~7.5 +j16 at 
> the 
> input.  The total loss in this "low-loss" line is over 12 dB.
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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Wes Stewart]

I calculated the antenna using AutoEZ invoking EZNEC v6.0.9.  Transmission line 
calculations using TLDetails (previously referenced) and/or if you have Excel, 
LineLoss.xls.  All except for EZNEC available from AC6LA.com.  Dan has a wealth 
of information on his site, all of it fabulous documented.


Some editions of the ARRL Antenna Book had material on "Highly Reactive Loads", 
shamelessly stolen from my correspondence with ARRL that also presented some of 
this.


On 1/31/2017 3:28 PM, Clay Autery wrote:

Something doesn't seem right with that  Care to post the math?  Not
saying you're wrong, and I'd check it myself, but I'm otherwise occupied
this evening.

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 1/31/2017 4:12 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:

A 130' dipole, 60' high on 160 has a feed point Z of ~4.5 -j1200.  One
hundred feet of Wireman 553 (typical ladderline) will transform this
to ~7.5 +j16 at the input.  The total loss in this "low-loss" line is
over 12 dB.


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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Clay Autery]

Something doesn't seem right with that  Care to post the math?  Not
saying you're wrong, and I'd check it myself, but I'm otherwise occupied
this evening.

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 1/31/2017 4:12 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
> A 130' dipole, 60' high on 160 has a feed point Z of ~4.5 -j1200.  One
> hundred feet of Wireman 553 (typical ladderline) will transform this
> to ~7.5 +j16 at the input.  The total loss in this "low-loss" line is
> over 12 dB.
>

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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Wes Stewart]

A 130' dipole, 60' high on 160 has a feed point Z of ~4.5 -j1200.  One hundred 
feet of Wireman 553 (typical ladderline) will transform this to ~7.5 +j16 at the 
input.  The total loss in this "low-loss" line is over 12 dB.


On 1/31/2017 9:53 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

The intrinsic higher impedance of ladder line helps reduce the losses
through a lower SWR than typical coax. A center fed wire at least 1/4 wave
long end-to-end on the lowest frequency used (e.g. 130 feet on 160 meters)
and fed with typical 350 to 450 ohm ladder line will show an SWR of 10:1 or
less across the HF spectrum, since a real-world wire will show an impedance
of only 4,000 ohms or so even when it is exactly 1/2 wavelength long.

Feeding the same antenna with 50 ohm coaxial line will result in an SWR
100:1 or greater and so much greater losses.

73, Ron AC7AC

   


-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wes
Stewart
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 5:07 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

Sadly, this is often untrue.

Get Dan's (AC6LA) program at: http://ac6la.com/tldetails1.html and run some
examples.

for more on ladder line see: http://k6mhe.com/n7ws/Ladder_Line.pdf

On 1/30/2017 9:00 PM, Barry wrote:

...I feed it with ladder line which has low loss even at absurdly high
SWRs, and the tuner I use is designed to be used with antennas that
are no where near optimum.


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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Vic Rosenthal]

I disagree. A center fed quarter wave will have a complex impedance of a few 
ohms of resistance and a very large capacitive reactance. SWR can be 100:1. I 
know, I am doing it. Why it works with good open wire line is that the line can 
transform the impedance to something that is easy to match with a practical 
tuner.
For example, in my case I feed a half-size doublet with about a quarter wave of 
real open wire line, and it looks like a large INDUCTIVE reactance and high 
resistance at the shack end! It's easy to knock out the inductive reactance 
efficiently with a pair of capacitors, and a 4:1 balun transforms the high 
resistance to a value that gives about a 5:1 SWR on the short coax to the tuner.
There is still (in my case) about 2.5 dB loss in the feed line due to SWR even 
at 40m, but I just run a kW instead of 500 watts and come out ahead.

Vic 4X6GP

> On 31 Jan 2017, at 18:53, Ron D'Eau Claire  wrote:
> 
> The intrinsic higher impedance of ladder line helps reduce the losses
> through a lower SWR than typical coax. A center fed wire at least 1/4 wave
> long end-to-end on the lowest frequency used (e.g. 130 feet on 160 meters)
> and fed with typical 350 to 450 ohm ladder line will show an SWR of 10:1 or
> less across the HF spectrum, since a real-world wire will show an impedance
> of only 4,000 ohms or so even when it is exactly 1/2 wavelength long. 
> 
> Feeding the same antenna with 50 ohm coaxial line will result in an SWR
> 100:1 or greater and so much greater losses. 
> 
> 73, Ron AC7AC
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Barry]

My points when I started this were open wire can help in a bad 
situation. I was not using 130' antenna, but one that was only 33'. And 
I was able to get out. Which leads to my second point. Some of us live 
in areas or on property that is not best suited for HF antennas, but so 
what. With a little thought, a bad situation can be made to work out 
pretty well. And lastly, throw something up and try it; you never know 
just what might happen.


As an aside, I was surprised that I could load a 33' on 160, and more 
surprised when I was actually able to get out of my state; I live in 
Maryland. Morocco and Mexico where a shock. And, I will admit you can do 
things during contests that are nearly impossible at other times.


Something to consider. Open wire was around almost as far back as 
Marconi, and maybe he used it. It has little loss even at high SWR, far, 
far less than coax in the extreme. In the olden days, no one really 
worried about SWR losses. Open wire was the common transmission line. 
Antenna tuners weren't really around, either.The trick that was done in 
those times was to have your final amplifier's tank circuit tune to the 
output frequency and act as the antenna coupler. In fact, the commercial 
station on Montauk Point at the tip of Long Island used to use rhombic 
antennas pointed toward Europe. The station engineer told me that the 
SWR was around 14:1 and he didn't worry too much about it as the loss on 
the line to his antenna was about 1 db and the a swinging link took care 
of the match.


As hams in today's world, there are a few things that can be done to get 
out on HF. Putting up the biggest antenna with the most gain is at the 
top of the list. But, not everyone has the ability to do as some of my 
friends like W3LPL, for instance, are able to do. But, there is one 
thing that many hams overlook, cut the loss from your radio to the 
antenna. That means use the transmission line that has the least loss 
for the situation and make sure you can operate your antenna tuner, if 
needed, in a range that has its losses at a minimum.


Do not worry about resonance. Most of us use antennas that if they were 
resonant wouldn't reflect 50 Ohms anyway.


73,
Barry
K3NDM


-- Original Message --
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <r...@cobi.biz>
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 1/31/2017 11:53:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"


The intrinsic higher impedance of ladder line helps reduce the losses
through a lower SWR than typical coax. A center fed wire at least 1/4 
wave
long end-to-end on the lowest frequency used (e.g. 130 feet on 160 
meters)
and fed with typical 350 to 450 ohm ladder line will show an SWR of 
10:1 or
less across the HF spectrum, since a real-world wire will show an 
impedance

of only 4,000 ohms or so even when it is exactly 1/2 wavelength long.

Feeding the same antenna with 50 ohm coaxial line will result in an SWR
100:1 or greater and so much greater losses.

73, Ron AC7AC



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of 
Wes

Stewart
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 5:07 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

Sadly, this is often untrue.

Get Dan's (AC6LA) program at: http://ac6la.com/tldetails1.html and run 
some

examples.

for more on ladder line see: http://k6mhe.com/n7ws/Ladder_Line.pdf

On 1/30/2017 9:00 PM, Barry wrote:
 ...I feed it with ladder line which has low loss even at absurdly 
high

 SWRs, and the tuner I use is designed to be used with antennas that
 are no where near optimum.


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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

The intrinsic higher impedance of ladder line helps reduce the losses
through a lower SWR than typical coax. A center fed wire at least 1/4 wave
long end-to-end on the lowest frequency used (e.g. 130 feet on 160 meters)
and fed with typical 350 to 450 ohm ladder line will show an SWR of 10:1 or
less across the HF spectrum, since a real-world wire will show an impedance
of only 4,000 ohms or so even when it is exactly 1/2 wavelength long. 

Feeding the same antenna with 50 ohm coaxial line will result in an SWR
100:1 or greater and so much greater losses. 

73, Ron AC7AC

  

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wes
Stewart
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 5:07 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

Sadly, this is often untrue.

Get Dan's (AC6LA) program at: http://ac6la.com/tldetails1.html and run some
examples.

for more on ladder line see: http://k6mhe.com/n7ws/Ladder_Line.pdf

On 1/30/2017 9:00 PM, Barry wrote:
> ...I feed it with ladder line which has low loss even at absurdly high 
> SWRs, and the tuner I use is designed to be used with antennas that 
> are no where near optimum.

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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Wes Stewart]

Sadly, this is often untrue.

Get Dan's (AC6LA) program at: http://ac6la.com/tldetails1.html and run some 
examples.


for more on ladder line see: http://k6mhe.com/n7ws/Ladder_Line.pdf

On 1/30/2017 9:00 PM, Barry wrote:
...I feed it with ladder line which has low loss even at absurdly high SWRs, 
and the tuner I use is designed to be used with antennas that are no where 
near optimum.


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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Barry]

Ron,
Mea culpa. You are right. I misused definitions. I use doublets. :-)

73,
Barry
K3NDM

-- Original Message --
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <r...@cobi.biz>
To: "'Emory Schley'" <silverlo...@gmx.com>
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 1/30/2017 9:54:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

Yep, that is my favorite antenna for H.F. fed with open wire line and a 
balanced tuner.


 But I never refer to it as a "dipole" since the classic definition of 
a dipole means it is 1/2 wave long. What you describe is what us O.T.s 
call a "doublet" or "center fed wire".


73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of 
Emory Schley

Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 5:38 PM
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"


I've found over the years that a McCoy Dipole works pretty well, often 
MUCH better than expected. What is a McCoy Dipole? Named after Lew 
McCoy, it follows his rules of construction. "Make it as long as you 
can, get it as high as you can, and feed it with ladder-line." No math, 
no measurements, no sweat. But a TUNER (transmatch) is definitely 
needed.


Emory Schley
N4LP


Kurt N. Sterba was correct. Textbook antennas aren't always possible, 
or even needed. If the situation is difficult, any radiator is better 
than none. However, hams in general are anal animals on the subject of 
antennas. My attitude has always been what's a db or two among friends, 
and quite often that is the number we are sweating. But, if you can't 
make it exactly like Kraus writes, get as close as you can and let your 
antenna tuner worry about the match and don't think about that extra 
db.


73,
Barry
K3NDM

-- Original Message --
From: "Fred Jensen" <k6...@foothill.net>
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 1/29/2017 6:10:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"


N6BT famously set up a "phased array" of 3 light bulbs in a V-beam
configuration and achieved WAC. He called it "The Illuminator." Kurt 
N.

Sterba [a regular in the old WorldRadio] is correct, the power will go
somewhere. My home antenna is a 136' wire strung along the wood fence
on electric fence insulators. Fed at the end, no overt counterpoise
[the outside of the coax shield handles that]. Not spec'd for 160 but
the KAT3 matches it fine. Invisible to HOA. NVIS on 160 and 80,
semi-NVIS on 40.

One thing to remember: feeding electrically long wires results in
complicated radiation patterns. The higher in frequency you go, the
more it's going to squirt your RF in different directions, not all of
which point at the DX. But, mine works very well considering it's 
about

1.8 m off the ground.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 1/29/2017 10:26 AM, Barry wrote:

Wayne,
 I know what you are saying and agree. In very simple terms, if you
can load it, it will radiate. That was a position that a writer with
the nom de plume of Kurt N Sterba too in a book he wrote. By the
physical law of conservation of energy, it all has to go somewhere.
And, that could be heat or radiation. In his book he claims to have
loaded a shopping cart and talked to people.

 Yes, you can do these things as long as you make good connections 
and

the tuners can handle it. All of the discussion is how to pick a
length that the tuner will accept. Once there, physics takes over. 
And

just to prove my point, and yours, I just worked the CQ 160 CW
contest. My antenna was a vertical 20 meter dipole center fed with
open wire. My radio is a K3s. I worked across this country, Canada,
and some DX with this 33' wire antenna that by all rights should have
been over 200'. I would have done better, but my local power company
added another handicap, line noise. Bottom line: Throw some wire up
and see if it can be loaded. If yes, go for it.

73,
Barry
K3NDM


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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Barry]

Bill,
There are many factors that could impact on his system 
effectiveness. The one that most comes to mind is height above ground. 
160 meters can be a real problem. If it is a horizontal, the average ham 
antenna height of 35-50 feet is very, very low electrically. Two things 
would happen here. First, a lot of energy is being lost to ground, and 
second, the radiated signal will be at high angle. Remember, a quarter 
wave on 160 meters is on the order of 135 feet which is the point where 
you get maximum radiation straight up. At lower heights, gains upward 
goes down and doesn't fill in toward the horizon. The means electrically 
low antennas are not effective.


The other area that comes to mind is the feed system itself. Not 
mentioned is whether open wire is being used. I would guess that the 
system SWR may be very high meaning losses on coax should be much 
greater than a 1 db. And, some tuners are not low loss when operated at 
their extremes.


I get away with what I do ONLY because my 20 meter vertical antenna 
is less effected by being low, I feed it with ladder line which has low 
loss even at absurdly high SWRs, and the tuner I use is designed to be 
used with antennas that are no where near optimum.


From what I did this weekend, I could surmise that my 33' radiator 
was radiating everything it received. If there is someone who really 
wants to do a math problem, I'll measure exactly the transmission line 
length, but I suspect that basically the about 60 feet of open wire 
helped. I would guess that the antenna reflected a very low impedance 
with a large reactive component, and the line length helped in 
translating the antenna impedance to something better handled by the 
tuner. Therefore, my losses are contained.



73,
Barry
K3NDM

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <k9...@live.com>
To: "'Barry'" <k3...@comcast.net>; "'Emory Schley'" 
<silverlo...@gmx.com>

Cc: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: 1/30/2017 9:42:35 PM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

OH YES,  the headaches from looking at the formulas at this stage of 
the
game. A friend added two coils to the end of his 75 meter dipole for 
160.
He loads it but has no clue as to impedance and loading.  He tunes it 
for
160 but it is not effective.  The idea is to get loading into an 
efficient
radiator.  OK to accept less to operate, but great to be efficient.  SO 
if
it is working, sometimes leave it alone.  Erect another before taking 
down

or modifying what works.

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-Original Message-
From

Yep. A good antenna tuner and ladder line hides a whole lot of stuff.
Where would I be with my 40' X 110' yard if I really worried about 
being
exact. I have DXCC mixed, CW, and SSB, and I never ran over 100 Watts 
nor
had a real "resonant" antenna. And, I've forgotten all of the math I 
ever
had in college more than 50 years ago; I get a headache when I think of 
ever

having to do math again.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

-- Original Message --
From: "Emory Schley" <silverlo...@gmx.com>


I've found over the years that a McCoy Dipole works pretty well, often
MUCH better than expected. What is a McCoy Dipole? Named after Lew
McCoy, it follows his rules of construction. "Make it as long as you
can, get it as high as you can, and feed it with ladder-line." No 
math,

no measurements, no sweat. But a TUNER (transmatch) is definitely
needed.

Emory Schley
N4LP


Kurt N. Sterba was correct. Textbook antennas aren't always
possible, or even needed. If the situation is difficult, any radiator
is
better than none. However, hams in general are anal animals on the
subject of antennas. My attitude has always been what's a db or two
among friends, and quite often that is the number we are sweating. 
But,
if you can't make it exactly like Kraus writes, get as close as you 
can

and let your antenna tuner worry about the match and don't think about
that extra db.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

-- Original Message --
From: "Fred Jensen" <k6...@foothill.net>


N6BT famously set up a "phased array" of 3 light bulbs in a V-beam
configuration and achieved WAC. He called it "The Illuminator." Kurt
N. Sterba [a regular in the old WorldRadio] is correct, the power 
will

go somewhere. My home antenna is a 136' wire strung along the wood
fence on electric fence insulators. Fed at the end, no overt
counterpoise [the outside of the coax shield handles that]. Not 
spec'd

for 160 but the KAT3 matches it fine. Invisible to HOA. NVIS on 160
and 80, semi-NVIS on 40.

One thing to remember: feeding electrically long wires results in
complicated radiation patterns. The higher in frequency you go, the
more it's going to squirt your RF in different directions, not all of
which point at the DX. But, mine works very well considering it's

Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Yep, that is my favorite antenna for H.F. fed with open wire line and a 
balanced tuner. 

 But I never refer to it as a "dipole" since the classic definition of a dipole 
means it is 1/2 wave long. What you describe is what us O.T.s call a "doublet" 
or "center fed wire". 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Emory 
Schley
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 5:38 PM
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"


I've found over the years that a McCoy Dipole works pretty well, often MUCH 
better than expected. What is a McCoy Dipole? Named after Lew McCoy, it follows 
his rules of construction. "Make it as long as you can, get it as high as you 
can, and feed it with ladder-line." No math, no measurements, no sweat. But a 
TUNER (transmatch) is definitely needed.
 
Emory Schley
N4LP
 

Kurt N. Sterba was correct. Textbook antennas aren't always possible, or even 
needed. If the situation is difficult, any radiator is better than none. 
However, hams in general are anal animals on the subject of antennas. My 
attitude has always been what's a db or two among friends, and quite often that 
is the number we are sweating. But, if you can't make it exactly like Kraus 
writes, get as close as you can and let your antenna tuner worry about the 
match and don't think about that extra db.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

-- Original Message --
From: "Fred Jensen" <k6...@foothill.net>
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 1/29/2017 6:10:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

>N6BT famously set up a "phased array" of 3 light bulbs in a V-beam 
>configuration and achieved WAC. He called it "The Illuminator." Kurt N. 
>Sterba [a regular in the old WorldRadio] is correct, the power will go 
>somewhere. My home antenna is a 136' wire strung along the wood fence 
>on electric fence insulators. Fed at the end, no overt counterpoise 
>[the outside of the coax shield handles that]. Not spec'd for 160 but 
>the KAT3 matches it fine. Invisible to HOA. NVIS on 160 and 80, 
>semi-NVIS on 40.
>
>One thing to remember: feeding electrically long wires results in 
>complicated radiation patterns. The higher in frequency you go, the 
>more it's going to squirt your RF in different directions, not all of 
>which point at the DX. But, mine works very well considering it's about 
>1.8 m off the ground.
>
>73,
>
>Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
>Sparks NV DM09dn
>Washoe County
>
>On 1/29/2017 10:26 AM, Barry wrote:
>>Wayne,
>> I know what you are saying and agree. In very simple terms, if you 
>>can load it, it will radiate. That was a position that a writer with 
>>the nom de plume of Kurt N Sterba too in a book he wrote. By the 
>>physical law of conservation of energy, it all has to go somewhere.
>>And, that could be heat or radiation. In his book he claims to have 
>>loaded a shopping cart and talked to people.
>>
>> Yes, you can do these things as long as you make good connections and 
>>the tuners can handle it. All of the discussion is how to pick a 
>>length that the tuner will accept. Once there, physics takes over. And 
>>just to prove my point, and yours, I just worked the CQ 160 CW 
>>contest. My antenna was a vertical 20 meter dipole center fed with 
>>open wire. My radio is a K3s. I worked across this country, Canada, 
>>and some DX with this 33' wire antenna that by all rights should have 
>>been over 200'. I would have done better, but my local power company 
>>added another handicap, line noise. Bottom line: Throw some wire up 
>>and see if it can be loaded. If yes, go for it.
>>
>>73,
>>Barry
>>K3NDM
>
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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

Lots of dipole calculators on the net.  The total length of a center fed 
dipole is 1/2 wave, and that's the magic number.


If you are operating at 14.300 and you're trying to end-feed a wire that 
is 32.7 feet long (same length as a dipole, but *not* fed at the 
middle), the impedance will be very high.


Add 16.3 feet, and you won't be a half-wave, you'll be 3/4 wave long, 
and the impedance at the end should be well within the range of a good 
tuner.


Double the length, and you're at a full wave, and it's the same 
impedance (more or less) as trying to end-feed a half-wave.


Doesn't matter what you do, if your "randomly chosen" length turns out 
to be a multiple of one half wave on a frequency you want to use, then 
the stock tuner in most any radio is going to have trouble tuning it.


73 -- Lynn
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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Bill Johnson]

OH YES,  the headaches from looking at the formulas at this stage of the
game. A friend added two coils to the end of his 75 meter dipole for 160.
He loads it but has no clue as to impedance and loading.  He tunes it for
160 but it is not effective.  The idea is to get loading into an efficient
radiator.  OK to accept less to operate, but great to be efficient.  SO if
it is working, sometimes leave it alone.  Erect another before taking down
or modifying what works. 

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-Original Message-
From

Yep. A good antenna tuner and ladder line hides a whole lot of stuff. 
Where would I be with my 40' X 110' yard if I really worried about being
exact. I have DXCC mixed, CW, and SSB, and I never ran over 100 Watts nor
had a real "resonant" antenna. And, I've forgotten all of the math I ever
had in college more than 50 years ago; I get a headache when I think of ever
having to do math again.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

-- Original Message --
From: "Emory Schley" 
>
>I've found over the years that a McCoy Dipole works pretty well, often 
>MUCH better than expected. What is a McCoy Dipole? Named after Lew 
>McCoy, it follows his rules of construction. "Make it as long as you 
>can, get it as high as you can, and feed it with ladder-line." No math, 
>no measurements, no sweat. But a TUNER (transmatch) is definitely 
>needed.
>
>Emory Schley
>N4LP
>
>
>Kurt N. Sterba was correct. Textbook antennas aren't always
>possible, or even needed. If the situation is difficult, any radiator 
>is
>better than none. However, hams in general are anal animals on the
>subject of antennas. My attitude has always been what's a db or two
>among friends, and quite often that is the number we are sweating. But,
>if you can't make it exactly like Kraus writes, get as close as you can
>and let your antenna tuner worry about the match and don't think about
>that extra db.
>
>73,
>Barry
>K3NDM
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Fred Jensen" 
>
>>N6BT famously set up a "phased array" of 3 light bulbs in a V-beam
>>configuration and achieved WAC. He called it "The Illuminator." Kurt
>>N. Sterba [a regular in the old WorldRadio] is correct, the power will
>>go somewhere. My home antenna is a 136' wire strung along the wood
>>fence on electric fence insulators. Fed at the end, no overt
>>counterpoise [the outside of the coax shield handles that]. Not spec'd
>>for 160 but the KAT3 matches it fine. Invisible to HOA. NVIS on 160
>>and 80, semi-NVIS on 40.
>>
>>One thing to remember: feeding electrically long wires results in
>>complicated radiation patterns. The higher in frequency you go, the
>>more it's going to squirt your RF in different directions, not all of
>>which point at the DX. But, mine works very well considering it's
>>about 1.8 m off the ground.
>>
>>73,
>>
>>Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
>>
>>On 1/29/2017 10:26 AM, Barry wrote:
>>>Wayne,
>>>  I know what you are saying and agree. In very simple terms, if you
>>>can load it, it will radiate. That was a position that a writer with
>>>the nom de plume of Kurt N Sterba too in a book he wrote. By the
>>>physical law of conservation of energy, it all has to go somewhere.
>>>And, that could be heat or radiation. In his book he claims to have
>>>loaded a shopping cart and talked to people.
>>>
>>>  Yes, you can do these things as long as you make good connections
>>>and the tuners can handle it. All of the discussion is how to pick a
>>>length that the tuner will accept. Once there, physics takes over. 
>>>And
>>>just to prove my point, and yours, I just worked the CQ 160 CW
>>>contest. My antenna was a vertical 20 meter dipole center fed with
>>>open wire. My radio is a K3s. I worked across this country, Canada,
>>>and some DX with this 33' wire antenna that by all rights should have
>>>been over 200'. I would have done better, but my local power company
>>>added another handicap, line noise. Bottom line: Throw some wire up
>>>and see if it can be loaded. If yes, go for it.
>>>
>>>73,
>>>Barry
>>>K3NDM
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Barry]

Yep. A good antenna tuner and ladder line hides a whole lot of stuff. 
Where would I be with my 40' X 110' yard if I really worried about being 
exact. I have DXCC mixed, CW, and SSB, and I never ran over 100 Watts 
nor had a real "resonant" antenna. And, I've forgotten all of the math I 
ever had in college more than 50 years ago; I get a headache when I 
think of ever having to do math again.


73,
Barry
K3NDM

-- Original Message --
From: "Emory Schley" <silverlo...@gmx.com>
To:
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 1/30/2017 8:38:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"



I've found over the years that a McCoy Dipole works pretty well, often 
MUCH better than expected. What is a McCoy Dipole? Named after Lew 
McCoy, it follows his rules of construction. "Make it as long as you 
can, get it as high as you can, and feed it with ladder-line." No math, 
no measurements, no sweat. But a TUNER (transmatch) is definitely 
needed.


Emory Schley
N4LP


Kurt N. Sterba was correct. Textbook antennas aren't always
possible, or even needed. If the situation is difficult, any radiator 
is

better than none. However, hams in general are anal animals on the
subject of antennas. My attitude has always been what's a db or two
among friends, and quite often that is the number we are sweating. But,
if you can't make it exactly like Kraus writes, get as close as you can
and let your antenna tuner worry about the match and don't think about
that extra db.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

-- Original Message --
From: "Fred Jensen" <k6...@foothill.net>
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 1/29/2017 6:10:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"


N6BT famously set up a "phased array" of 3 light bulbs in a V-beam
configuration and achieved WAC. He called it "The Illuminator." Kurt
N. Sterba [a regular in the old WorldRadio] is correct, the power will
go somewhere. My home antenna is a 136' wire strung along the wood
fence on electric fence insulators. Fed at the end, no overt
counterpoise [the outside of the coax shield handles that]. Not spec'd
for 160 but the KAT3 matches it fine. Invisible to HOA. NVIS on 160
and 80, semi-NVIS on 40.

One thing to remember: feeding electrically long wires results in
complicated radiation patterns. The higher in frequency you go, the
more it's going to squirt your RF in different directions, not all of
which point at the DX. But, mine works very well considering it's
about 1.8 m off the ground.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 1/29/2017 10:26 AM, Barry wrote:

Wayne,
 I know what you are saying and agree. In very simple terms, if you
can load it, it will radiate. That was a position that a writer with
the nom de plume of Kurt N Sterba too in a book he wrote. By the
physical law of conservation of energy, it all has to go somewhere.
And, that could be heat or radiation. In his book he claims to have
loaded a shopping cart and talked to people.

 Yes, you can do these things as long as you make good connections
and the tuners can handle it. All of the discussion is how to pick a
length that the tuner will accept. Once there, physics takes over. 
And

just to prove my point, and yours, I just worked the CQ 160 CW
contest. My antenna was a vertical 20 meter dipole center fed with
open wire. My radio is a K3s. I worked across this country, Canada,
and some DX with this 33' wire antenna that by all rights should have
been over 200'. I would have done better, but my local power company
added another handicap, line noise. Bottom line: Throw some wire up
and see if it can be loaded. If yes, go for it.

73,
Barry
K3NDM


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Plea

Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Emory Schley]

I've found over the years that a McCoy Dipole works pretty well, often MUCH 
better than expected. What is a McCoy Dipole? Named after Lew McCoy, it follows 
his rules of construction. "Make it as long as you can, get it as high as you 
can, and feed it with ladder-line." No math, no measurements, no sweat. But a 
TUNER (transmatch) is definitely needed.
 
Emory Schley
N4LP
 

Kurt N. Sterba was correct. Textbook antennas aren't always
possible, or even needed. If the situation is difficult, any radiator is
better than none. However, hams in general are anal animals on the
subject of antennas. My attitude has always been what's a db or two
among friends, and quite often that is the number we are sweating. But,
if you can't make it exactly like Kraus writes, get as close as you can
and let your antenna tuner worry about the match and don't think about
that extra db.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

-- Original Message --
From: "Fred Jensen" <k6...@foothill.net>
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 1/29/2017 6:10:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

>N6BT famously set up a "phased array" of 3 light bulbs in a V-beam
>configuration and achieved WAC. He called it "The Illuminator." Kurt
>N. Sterba [a regular in the old WorldRadio] is correct, the power will
>go somewhere. My home antenna is a 136' wire strung along the wood
>fence on electric fence insulators. Fed at the end, no overt
>counterpoise [the outside of the coax shield handles that]. Not spec'd
>for 160 but the KAT3 matches it fine. Invisible to HOA. NVIS on 160
>and 80, semi-NVIS on 40.
>
>One thing to remember: feeding electrically long wires results in
>complicated radiation patterns. The higher in frequency you go, the
>more it's going to squirt your RF in different directions, not all of
>which point at the DX. But, mine works very well considering it's
>about 1.8 m off the ground.
>
>73,
>
>Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
>Sparks NV DM09dn
>Washoe County
>
>On 1/29/2017 10:26 AM, Barry wrote:
>>Wayne,
>> I know what you are saying and agree. In very simple terms, if you
>>can load it, it will radiate. That was a position that a writer with
>>the nom de plume of Kurt N Sterba too in a book he wrote. By the
>>physical law of conservation of energy, it all has to go somewhere.
>>And, that could be heat or radiation. In his book he claims to have
>>loaded a shopping cart and talked to people.
>>
>> Yes, you can do these things as long as you make good connections
>>and the tuners can handle it. All of the discussion is how to pick a
>>length that the tuner will accept. Once there, physics takes over. And
>>just to prove my point, and yours, I just worked the CQ 160 CW
>>contest. My antenna was a vertical 20 meter dipole center fed with
>>open wire. My radio is a K3s. I worked across this country, Canada,
>>and some DX with this 33' wire antenna that by all rights should have
>>been over 200'. I would have done better, but my local power company
>>added another handicap, line noise. Bottom line: Throw some wire up
>>and see if it can be loaded. If yes, go for it.
>>
>>73,
>>Barry
>>K3NDM
>
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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Bill Frantz]

Just recently, I was testing an 80W 2M amplifier into a dummy 
load. I noticed that anytime I send a signal into it, it 
triggered the local repeater. (I changed frequencies.) However, 
I can work the local repeater from my living room with a HT set 
at 100 mW, so it doesn't take much.


Now if I could only contact the contest and DX stations with 
this little antenna and power.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 1/29/17 at 7:40 PM, r...@cobi.biz (Ron D'Eau Claire) wrote:


Most of us O.T.s (like you) have had the experience of using a 'grocery
store dummy load' (ordinary incandescent light bulb) to test our rigs and
had someone call us in return!


---
Bill Frantz|The nice thing about standards| Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  |is there are so many to choose| 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |from.   - Andrew Tanenbaum| Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Ha, ha!!! But all of those photons are not getting beyond "line of sight".

Most of us O.T.s (like you) have had the experience of using a 'grocery
store dummy load' (ordinary incandescent light bulb) to test our rigs and
had someone call us in return! 

Another thing to  remember is that there is no direction in which an antenna
does not radiate. The more lobes, the more nearly it is omni-directional.

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Fred
Jensen
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2017 3:10 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

N6BT famously set up a "phased array" of 3 light bulbs in a V-beam
configuration and achieved WAC.  He called it "The Illuminator." Kurt N. 
Sterba [a regular in the old WorldRadio] is correct, the power will go
somewhere.  My home antenna is a 136' wire strung along the wood fence on
electric fence insulators.  Fed at the end, no overt counterpoise [the
outside of the coax shield handles that].  Not spec'd for 160 but the KAT3
matches it fine.  Invisible to HOA.  NVIS on 160 and 80, semi-NVIS on 40.

One thing to remember:  feeding electrically long wires results in
complicated radiation patterns.  The higher in frequency you go, the more
it's going to squirt your RF in different directions, not all of which point
at the DX.  But, mine works very well considering it's about
1.8 m off the ground.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 1/29/2017 10:26 AM, Barry wrote:
> Wayne,
> I know what you are saying and agree. In very simple terms, if you 
> can load it, it will radiate. That was a position that a writer with 
> the nom de plume of Kurt N Sterba too in a book he wrote. By the 
> physical law of conservation of energy, it all has to go somewhere. 
> And, that could be heat or radiation. In his book he claims to have 
> loaded a shopping cart and talked to people.
>
> Yes, you can do these things as long as you make good connections 
> and the tuners can handle it. All of the discussion is how to pick a 
> length that the tuner will accept. Once there, physics takes over. And 
> just to prove my point, and yours, I just worked the CQ 160 CW 
> contest. My antenna was a vertical 20 meter dipole center fed with 
> open wire. My radio is a K3s. I worked across this country, Canada, 
> and some DX with this 33' wire antenna that by all rights should have 
> been over 200'. I would have done better, but my local power company 
> added another handicap, line noise. Bottom line: Throw some wire up 
> and see if it can be loaded. If yes, go for it.
>
> 73,
> Barry
> K3NDM

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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Barry]

Skip,
Great idea for an antenna. I gotta try that one sometime.

Kurt N. Sterba was correct. Textbook antennas aren't always 
possible, or even needed. If the situation is difficult, any radiator is 
better than none. However, hams in general are anal animals on the 
subject of antennas. My attitude has always been what's a db or two 
among friends, and quite often that is the number we are sweating. But, 
if you can't make it exactly like Kraus writes, get as close as you can 
and let your antenna tuner worry about the match and don't think about 
that extra db.


73,
Barry
K3NDM

-- Original Message --
From: "Fred Jensen" <k6...@foothill.net>
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 1/29/2017 6:10:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

N6BT famously set up a "phased array" of 3 light bulbs in a V-beam 
configuration and achieved WAC.  He called it "The Illuminator." Kurt 
N. Sterba [a regular in the old WorldRadio] is correct, the power will 
go somewhere.  My home antenna is a 136' wire strung along the wood 
fence on electric fence insulators.  Fed at the end, no overt 
counterpoise [the outside of the coax shield handles that].  Not spec'd 
for 160 but the KAT3 matches it fine.  Invisible to HOA.  NVIS on 160 
and 80, semi-NVIS on 40.


One thing to remember:  feeding electrically long wires results in 
complicated radiation patterns.  The higher in frequency you go, the 
more it's going to squirt your RF in different directions, not all of 
which point at the DX.  But, mine works very well considering it's 
about 1.8 m off the ground.


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 1/29/2017 10:26 AM, Barry wrote:

Wayne,
I know what you are saying and agree. In very simple terms, if you 
can load it, it will radiate. That was a position that a writer with 
the nom de plume of Kurt N Sterba too in a book he wrote. By the 
physical law of conservation of energy, it all has to go somewhere. 
And, that could be heat or radiation. In his book he claims to have 
loaded a shopping cart and talked to people.


Yes, you can do these things as long as you make good connections 
and the tuners can handle it. All of the discussion is how to pick a 
length that the tuner will accept. Once there, physics takes over. And 
just to prove my point, and yours, I just worked the CQ 160 CW 
contest. My antenna was a vertical 20 meter dipole center fed with 
open wire. My radio is a K3s. I worked across this country, Canada, 
and some DX with this 33' wire antenna that by all rights should have 
been over 200'. I would have done better, but my local power company 
added another handicap, line noise. Bottom line: Throw some wire up 
and see if it can be loaded. If yes, go for it.


73,
Barry
K3NDM


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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna"

[Fred Jensen]

N6BT famously set up a "phased array" of 3 light bulbs in a V-beam 
configuration and achieved WAC.  He called it "The Illuminator." Kurt N. 
Sterba [a regular in the old WorldRadio] is correct, the power will go 
somewhere.  My home antenna is a 136' wire strung along the wood fence 
on electric fence insulators.  Fed at the end, no overt counterpoise 
[the outside of the coax shield handles that].  Not spec'd for 160 but 
the KAT3 matches it fine.  Invisible to HOA.  NVIS on 160 and 80, 
semi-NVIS on 40.


One thing to remember:  feeding electrically long wires results in 
complicated radiation patterns.  The higher in frequency you go, the 
more it's going to squirt your RF in different directions, not all of 
which point at the DX.  But, mine works very well considering it's about 
1.8 m off the ground.


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 1/29/2017 10:26 AM, Barry wrote:

Wayne,
I know what you are saying and agree. In very simple terms, if you 
can load it, it will radiate. That was a position that a writer with 
the nom de plume of Kurt N Sterba too in a book he wrote. By the 
physical law of conservation of energy, it all has to go somewhere. 
And, that could be heat or radiation. In his book he claims to have 
loaded a shopping cart and talked to people.


Yes, you can do these things as long as you make good connections 
and the tuners can handle it. All of the discussion is how to pick a 
length that the tuner will accept. Once there, physics takes over. And 
just to prove my point, and yours, I just worked the CQ 160 CW 
contest. My antenna was a vertical 20 meter dipole center fed with 
open wire. My radio is a K3s. I worked across this country, Canada, 
and some DX with this 33' wire antenna that by all rights should have 
been over 200'. I would have done better, but my local power company 
added another handicap, line noise. Bottom line: Throw some wire up 
and see if it can be loaded. If yes, go for it.


73,
Barry
K3NDM


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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna" (was: Random wire lengths for antennas)

[Hajo Dezelski]

Hi,

have a look at this one:
http://pa-11019.blogspot.de/2017/01/efhw-antenna-for-40-10m-qrp.html

It works as indicated in the measurements. I use it for the other bands
with the ATU of the Kx3 and Kx2.

73 de Hajo dl1sdz


---
Cela est bien dit, mais il faut cultiver notre jardin.

http://hajos-kontrapunkte.blogspot.de/
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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna" (was: Random wire lengths for antennas)

[K9MA]

There's an unavoidable tradeoff using an end fed wire with an ATU of 
limited range.  Since the ATU can't match the high impedance of a half 
wave multiple, the lower impedance of the wire will lead to larger 
ground/counterpoise currents.  Even with a decent ground and/or 
counterpoise, some power is lost, and at 100 W or above, you might need 
to keep you fingers off the metal stuff.  That said, it can be a simple, 
effective way to get on the air.


I've long been a fan of the EFHW, but I've always used an external 
tuner.  The impedance should be somewhere in the 1K-5K range.  An 
internal ATU might be able to match that with an external transformer, 
say with a 3:1 turns ratio, though I'm not sure one could make such a 
transformer with low enough stray capacitance to work on the higher 
bands.  Has anyone tried it?


73,

Scott  K9MA

--
Scott  K9MA

k...@sdellington.us

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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna" (was: Random wire lengths for antennas)

[Matt Zilmer]

For general low-band operation, I use a doublet that is 75 feet long on 
each leg, and fed via ladder line to a BL-2 balun near the shack.  The 
fifteen feet of coax to the balun is low-loss LMR400.  The low-loss coax 
helps with the high SWR problem, in that the losses are minimized (for 
what I can afford, that is).


This antenna loads up fine on all bands except 6m.  I won't claim it's 
ultra-efficient, but at least the ATU can handle it.


I chose the length of the ladder line as 61 feet, and this seems to give 
good results.  I'm sure other lengths could be calculated that would 
work equally well.


73,

matt W6NIA


On 1/29/2017 10:17 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

I'd call an ad-hoc antenna that works on multiple bands with an ATU a "Kinda-Random 
Antenna" (KRA). (Apologies to linguistic purists.)

A simplified definition might be:

   A. long enough to work within the maximum limits of the ATU's L-network on 
the lowest band used
   B. presents a reasonably low impedance on all bands used (e.g., doesn't look 
like an end-fed half-wave)

ATUs have limited monotonicity and granularity, as well as stray impedances, so 
in practice there is a third criteria:

   C. tunable on each band used despite specific L-network idiosyncrasies

This third criteria is the hardest one to predict for a given ATU design, as 
the idiosyncrasies vary with PCB layout and actual component values. They may 
only impact the highest bands, or for a particular antenna, the bands on which 
Q is the highest. For our ATU designs, we try to minimize strays and keep the 
network monotonic by using tightly toleranced capacitors and toroidal inductors.

While a wide range of wire lengths will meet the requirements of a "KRA" in the 
field, we've found from experience that something in the 25'-28' range works on all bands 
from 40 meters up, and roughly twice this for 80 meters up. Since it's impossible to 
predict the effect of ground losses, obstructions, deployed wire angles, etc., you may 
occasionally need to add or remove wire to obtain resonance on all bands used.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


On Jan 29, 2017, at 7:55 AM, Tom McCulloch  wrote:


I guess we need an alternate definition of "random" ;-)

Tom

wb2qdg

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--
Always store beer in a dark place.  - R. Heinlein

Matt Zilmer, W6NIA
[Shiraz]

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Re: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna" (was: Random wire lengths for antennas)

[Barry]

Wayne,
I know what you are saying and agree. In very simple terms, if you 
can load it, it will radiate. That was a position that a writer with the 
nom de plume of Kurt N Sterba too in a book he wrote. By the physical 
law of conservation of energy, it all has to go somewhere. And, that 
could be heat or radiation. In his book he claims to have loaded a 
shopping cart and talked to people.


Yes, you can do these things as long as you make good connections 
and the tuners can handle it. All of the discussion is how to pick a 
length that the tuner will accept. Once there, physics takes over. And 
just to prove my point, and yours, I just worked the CQ 160 CW contest. 
My antenna was a vertical 20 meter dipole center fed with open wire. My 
radio is a K3s. I worked across this country, Canada, and some DX with 
this 33' wire antenna that by all rights should have been over 200'. I 
would have done better, but my local power company added another 
handicap, line noise. Bottom line: Throw some wire up and see if it can 
be loaded. If yes, go for it.


73,
Barry
K3NDM

-- Original Message --
From: "Wayne Burdick" <n...@elecraft.com>
To: "Tom McCulloch" <th...@att.net>
Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>; 
"k...@yahoogroups.com" <k...@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: 1/29/2017 12:40:58 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna" (was: Random wire lengths 
for antennas)


I'd call an ad-hoc antenna that works on multiple bands with an ATU a 
"Kinda-Random Antenna" (KRA). (Apologies to linguistic purists.)


A simplified definition might be:

   A. long enough to work within the maximum limits of the ATU's 
L-network on the lowest band used
   B. presents a reasonably low impedance on all bands used (e.g., 
doesn't look like an end-fed half-wave)


ATUs have limited monotonicity and granularity, as well as stray 
impedances, so in practice there is a third criteria:


   C. tunable on each band used despite specific L-network 
idiosyncrasies


This third criteria is the hardest one to predict for a given ATU 
design, as the idiosyncrasies vary with PCB layout and actual component 
values. They may only impact the highest bands, or for a particular 
antenna, the bands on which Q is the highest. For our ATU designs, we 
try to minimize strays and keep the network monotonic by using tightly 
toleranced capacitors and toroidal inductors.


While a wide range of wire lengths will meet the requirements of a 
"KRA" in the field, we've found from experience that something in the 
25'-28' range works on all bands from 40 meters up, and roughly twice 
this for 80 meters up. Since it's impossible to predict the effect of 
ground losses, obstructions, deployed wire angles, etc., you may 
occasionally need to add or remove wire to obtain resonance on all 
bands used.


73,
Wayne
N6KR


On Jan 29, 2017, at 7:55 AM, Tom McCulloch <th...@att.net> wrote:


 I guess we need an alternate definition of "random" ;-)

 Tom

 wb2qdg



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[Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna" (was: Random wire lengths for antennas)

[Wayne Burdick]

I'd call an ad-hoc antenna that works on multiple bands with an ATU a 
"Kinda-Random Antenna" (KRA). (Apologies to linguistic purists.)

A simplified definition might be:  

  A. long enough to work within the maximum limits of the ATU's L-network on 
the lowest band used
  B. presents a reasonably low impedance on all bands used (e.g., doesn't look 
like an end-fed half-wave)

ATUs have limited monotonicity and granularity, as well as stray impedances, so 
in practice there is a third criteria:

  C. tunable on each band used despite specific L-network idiosyncrasies

This third criteria is the hardest one to predict for a given ATU design, as 
the idiosyncrasies vary with PCB layout and actual component values. They may 
only impact the highest bands, or for a particular antenna, the bands on which 
Q is the highest. For our ATU designs, we try to minimize strays and keep the 
network monotonic by using tightly toleranced capacitors and toroidal 
inductors. 

While a wide range of wire lengths will meet the requirements of a "KRA" in the 
field, we've found from experience that something in the 25'-28' range works on 
all bands from 40 meters up, and roughly twice this for 80 meters up. Since 
it's impossible to predict the effect of ground losses, obstructions, deployed 
wire angles, etc., you may occasionally need to add or remove wire to obtain 
resonance on all bands used.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


On Jan 29, 2017, at 7:55 AM, Tom McCulloch  wrote:

> I guess we need an alternate definition of "random" ;-)
> 
> Tom
> 
> wb2qdg

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[Elecraft] The "Kinda Random Antenna" (was: Random wire lengths for antennas)

[Wayne Burdick]

I'd call an ad-hoc antenna that works on multiple bands with an ATU a 
"Kinda-Random Antenna" (KRA). (Apologies to linguistic purists.)

A simplified definition might be:  

   A. long enough to work within the maximum limits of the ATU's L-network on 
the lowest band used
   B. presents a reasonably low impedance on all bands used (e.g., doesn't look 
like an end-fed half-wave)

ATUs have limited monotonicity and granularity, as well as stray impedances, so 
in practice there is a third criteria:

   C. tunable on each band used despite specific L-network idiosyncrasies

This third criteria is the hardest one to predict for a given ATU design, as 
the idiosyncrasies vary with PCB layout and actual component values. They may 
only impact the highest bands, or for a particular antenna, the bands on which 
Q is the highest. For our ATU designs, we try to minimize strays and keep the 
network monotonic by using tightly toleranced capacitors and toroidal 
inductors. 

While a wide range of wire lengths will meet the requirements of a "KRA" in the 
field, we've found from experience that something in the 25'-28' range works on 
all bands from 40 meters up, and roughly twice this for 80 meters up. Since 
it's impossible to predict the effect of ground losses, obstructions, deployed 
wire angles, etc., you may occasionally need to add or remove wire to obtain 
resonance on all bands used.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


On Jan 29, 2017, at 7:55 AM, Tom McCulloch  wrote:

> I guess we need an alternate definition of "random" ;-)
> 
> Tom
> 
> wb2qdg


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