Re: [Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[Ed Stallman]

Unless I missed it no one has mentioned " Karen's Time Sync " From the 
time JT44 was introduced  I used Dimension 4 , as computers became 
faster and Op systems changed . D4 started giving me intermittent 
problems ! Two weeks ago I started using  Karen's Time Sync with no 
plans to change .


Ed N5DG


On 9/13/2017 2:19 PM, Josh wrote:

Yikes! +/-30 secs and you might not even be transmitting when the other station 
is listening.

It's pretty well accepted that <1s is minimum accuracy for good performance. On 
EME you're looking for dT around 2.5 secs to help identify valid signals. If 
you're not within 0.3s, I'd be looking for a better solution.

Dimension 4 worked great on my XP machine. When I upgraded last year to a much 
faster Win 7, per recommendation from EME guru W7GJ's site, I installed 
Meinberg which has been trouble free. Since K6QXY's computer for JT isn't 
internet connected, I got a USB puck GPS receiver and NMEATime from 
VisualGPS.net for Bob, and it's been an excellent solution. Software plus 
receiver around $50. I expected we'd have to put the puck outdoors, but it 
locked just fine laying on the computer desk.

That's been my experience!

73,
Josh W6XU

Sent from my mobile device


For what it's worth, plus or minus 30 seconds isn't all that big a deal.



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Re: [Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[Walter Underwood]

A good NTP implementation is awesome technology. It was awesome more than 25 
years ago. As an example, here is my second open source contribution, from 
1993. Not sure why the first search hit is from Apple, but whatever.

https://opensource.apple.com/source/ntp/ntp-92.30.1/scripts/ntp-groper.auto.html
 


wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Sep 13, 2017, at 5:03 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT 
>  wrote:
> 
> Again, my statement is that keeping good time is not difficult.
> 
> A good NTP client will do that.
> 
> Yes, I do realize that if your clock is 20 milliseconds fast, and the other 
> guy is 20 milliseconds slow, the total error is 40 milliseconds.
> 
> The documentation at 
> 
>  does say plus or minus 1 second.
> 
> It then goes on to recommend a couple of good NTP clients (which have been 
> mentioned here) that will do several orders of magnitude better than that.
> 
> 73 -- Lynn
> 
> On 9/13/2017 2:40 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>> Lynn,
>> You can argue all you like, but those with long experience with WSJT modes 
>> try to keep their clock within a few tens of msec of correct time. Why?  
>> Because the other station can be off in the other direction, and what counts 
>> is the DIFFERENCE between you and the station you're trying to work. And the 
>> greater that difference, the less likely that you will decode each other, 
>> especially under weak signal conditions. Why? Because the noise reduction 
>> schemes for JT65, JT9, and FT8 are synchronized to the beginning of the 
>> transmission period, and the decoding station needs to lock onto the sending 
>> station.
>> Time sync is LESS critical for modes like MSK144 and ISCAT, which are 
>> primarily used for meteor scatter, decode from short bursts of signal, and 
>> do not depend on sync for their decoding.
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> On 9/13/2017 1:38 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
>>> Plus or minus 500 msec. isn't a big deal.  It's big enough that I'd argue 
>>> that it's essentially the same.
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Re: [Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

Again, my statement is that keeping good time is not difficult.

A good NTP client will do that.

Yes, I do realize that if your clock is 20 milliseconds fast, and the 
other guy is 20 milliseconds slow, the total error is 40 milliseconds.


The documentation at 
 
does say plus or minus 1 second.


It then goes on to recommend a couple of good NTP clients (which have 
been mentioned here) that will do several orders of magnitude better 
than that.


73 -- Lynn

On 9/13/2017 2:40 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

Lynn,

You can argue all you like, but those with long experience with WSJT 
modes try to keep their clock within a few tens of msec of correct time. 
Why?  Because the other station can be off in the other direction, and 
what counts is the DIFFERENCE between you and the station you're trying 
to work. And the greater that difference, the less likely that you will 
decode each other, especially under weak signal conditions. Why? Because 
the noise reduction schemes for JT65, JT9, and FT8 are synchronized to 
the beginning of the transmission period, and the decoding station needs 
to lock onto the sending station.


Time sync is LESS critical for modes like MSK144 and ISCAT, which are 
primarily used for meteor scatter, decode from short bursts of signal, 
and do not depend on sync for their decoding.


73, Jim K9YC

On 9/13/2017 1:38 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
Plus or minus 500 msec. isn't a big deal.  It's big enough that I'd 
argue that it's essentially the same.



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Re: [Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[Jim Brown]

Lynn,

You can argue all you like, but those with long experience with WSJT 
modes try to keep their clock within a few tens of msec of correct time. 
Why?  Because the other station can be off in the other direction, and 
what counts is the DIFFERENCE between you and the station you're trying 
to work. And the greater that difference, the less likely that you will 
decode each other, especially under weak signal conditions. Why?  
Because the noise reduction schemes for JT65, JT9, and FT8 are 
synchronized to the beginning of the transmission period, and the 
decoding station needs to lock onto the sending station.


Time sync is LESS critical for modes like MSK144 and ISCAT, which are 
primarily used for meteor scatter, decode from short bursts of signal, 
and do not depend on sync for their decoding.


73, Jim K9YC

On 9/13/2017 1:38 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
Plus or minus 500 msec. isn't a big deal.  It's big enough that I'd 
argue that it's essentially the same.



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Re: [Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

Misread the original post.

Plus or minus 500 msec. isn't a big deal.  It's big enough that I'd 
argue that it's essentially the same.


Comments about pool.ntp.org vs. the public Stratum 1 servers are still 
valid.


On 9/13/2017 10:22 AM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:

For what it's worth, plus or minus 30 seconds isn't all that big a deal.

I would encourage everyone to avoid the "Stratum 1" servers (unless it's 
a private "Stratum 1" server), and use pool.ntp.org.  This is a bunch of 
Stratum 2 servers that are accurate.  The public Stratum 1 servers are 
subject to overload.


73 -- Lynn
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Re: [Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[Clay Autery]

+ another 1.  Have been using Meinberg's NTP to replace Windows NTP and
monitor for a year now...  Keeps me within a few milliseconds all the
time...  Biggest offset in the last year has been less than 1/100th of a
second. Just works.

__
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MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 9/13/2017 12:03 PM, David Anderson via Elecraft wrote:
> +1
>
> 73 from David GM4JJJ
>
>> On 13 Sep 2017, at 14:33, M. George  wrote:
>>
>> I use the free Meinberg NTP build on Windows 10.
>>
>> https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/sw/ntp.htm
>>
>>
> .
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Re: [Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[Josh]

Yikes! +/-30 secs and you might not even be transmitting when the other station 
is listening. 

It's pretty well accepted that <1s is minimum accuracy for good performance. On 
EME you're looking for dT around 2.5 secs to help identify valid signals. If 
you're not within 0.3s, I'd be looking for a better solution. 

Dimension 4 worked great on my XP machine. When I upgraded last year to a much 
faster Win 7, per recommendation from EME guru W7GJ's site, I installed 
Meinberg which has been trouble free. Since K6QXY's computer for JT isn't 
internet connected, I got a USB puck GPS receiver and NMEATime from 
VisualGPS.net for Bob, and it's been an excellent solution. Software plus 
receiver around $50. I expected we'd have to put the puck outdoors, but it 
locked just fine laying on the computer desk. 

That's been my experience!

73,
Josh W6XU

Sent from my mobile device

> 
> For what it's worth, plus or minus 30 seconds isn't all that big a deal.
> 
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

If it's plus/minus 1 minute as some have stated, or plus or minus 1 
second, anything within 100 msec. should be plenty.


A decent NTP client will do that running against pool.ntp.org.

Exotic time-keeping doesn't seem to be necessary.

73 -- Lynn

On 9/13/2017 10:36 AM, David Anderson wrote:

Lynn,

For Modes like MSK144 FT8 JT65 you need to be much closer than that!

Better than plus or minus 1 second is required.


73 from David GM4JJJ


On 13 Sep 2017, at 18:22, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT 
 wrote:

For what it's worth, plus or minus 30 seconds isn't all that big a deal.





.


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Re: [Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[David Anderson via Elecraft]

Lynn,

For Modes like MSK144 FT8 JT65 you need to be much closer than that! 

Better than plus or minus 1 second is required.


73 from David GM4JJJ

> On 13 Sep 2017, at 18:22, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT 
>  wrote:
> 
> For what it's worth, plus or minus 30 seconds isn't all that big a deal.
> 
> 


.
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Re: [Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

For what it's worth, plus or minus 30 seconds isn't all that big a deal.

I would encourage everyone to avoid the "Stratum 1" servers (unless it's 
a private "Stratum 1" server), and use pool.ntp.org.  This is a bunch of 
Stratum 2 servers that are accurate.  The public Stratum 1 servers are 
subject to overload.


73 -- Lynn
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Re: [Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[David Anderson via Elecraft]

+1

73 from David GM4JJJ

> On 13 Sep 2017, at 14:33, M. George  wrote:
> 
> I use the free Meinberg NTP build on Windows 10.
> 
> https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/sw/ntp.htm
> 
> 

.
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Re: [Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[Rick WA6NHC]

Absolutely wrong.  Windows for YEARS has mucked up the NTP so that it is 
only required to be accurate to within several MINUTES.  Do not rely on 
the Win OS NTP client.  It can at least be off by some seconds, 
routinely; which is unacceptable to the JT modes.


Rick nhc


On 9/13/2017 8:54 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
Everything you need is in Windows for time synchronization, thus 
otherwise, it is no big deal.




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Re: [Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[Jim Brown]

On 9/13/2017 4:26 AM, Krug261--- via Elecraft wrote:

After 15 years away from radio, I'm back, and want to enter the digital modes. 
(How things have changed!) There is much opinion that a computer's onboard time 
system (Win 10 for me) is inadequate for digital, e.g., the WSJT-X user manual. 
So...


It's not "opinion," it's scientifically verifiable fact for WSJT modes 
that send and receive packets of encoded data that start and end at 
specific times. These modes include FT8, JT65, and JT9, as well as a few 
similar modes.



1. Is this a correct assumption in all/most cases?


Yes, for the modes listed above.  Time sync differences greater than 
about 1 sec between two stations decreases the likelihood that the 
signal will be successfully decoded.  And because this is a DIFFERENCE, 
one station might be 1 sec early and the other 1 sec late and they would 
be pretty unlikely to decode each other.

2. Assuming you do feel it's necessary, which synchronization program would you 
suggest?


I use this free/shareware program. Runs in the background, no 
conflicts.  There are other good ones.


http://www.timesynctool.com/

The speed (frequency) of some computer clocks are more or less accurate 
than others, so the intervals between time sync required to stay in sync 
will vary from one computer to another.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

Using WSJT-X, 1.8.0-rc2 version, I just watch the decoded signals on the 
Band Activity window and the DT value being displayed.  If they are less 
than 1.0 second either + or - value, the computer time is satisfactory.  
If the DT value is greater than +/-1.0 second, I use internet time to 
update the computer.  You may have to choose one of the three choices to 
attain the best resolve for your location.   Most of the time I find 
signals are ~0.5 +/- seconds. Everything you need is in Windows for 
time synchronization, thus otherwise, it is no big deal.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 9/13/2017 8:33 AM, M. George wrote:

I use the free Meinberg NTP build on Windows 10.

https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/sw/ntp.htm

It disables the windows time service and runs as a service, plus there is a
cool monitor you can download too.  This full ntp implementation will
discipline your clock and allow you to select your ntp servers.  By far
this NTP time sync service will keep your clock synchronized better than
anything else even if not connected to the internet.  It will determine the
drift of your clock in PPM and continually tweak it via PLL logic to keep
it in check.

I also run a stratum 1 NTP server you can use if you like when you install
the Meinberg build of NTP: time.nc7j.com

Max NG7M

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 6:48 AM, rich hurd WC3T  wrote:


I second the Dimension 4 nomination.  Just works. No fiddle involved.

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 07:26 Krug261--- via Elecraft <
elecraft@mailman.qth.net> wrote:


After 15 years away from radio, I'm back, and want to enter the digital
modes. (How things have changed!) There is much opinion that a computer's
onboard time system (Win 10 for me) is inadequate for digital, e.g., the
WSJT-X user manual. So...
1. Is this a correct assumption in all/most cases?
2. Assuming you do feel it's necessary, which synchronization program
would you suggest? Considerations: ease of installation, ease of

operation

(fully behind the scenes transparent?), least "invasive", etc.
Thanks.Bob, KA2TQVKX3 #9842
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--
---
72,
Rich Hurd / WC3T / DMR: 3142737
PA Army MARS, Northampton County RACES, EPA-ARRL Public Information Officer
for Scouting
Latitude: 40.761621 Longitude: -75.288988  (40°45.68' N 75°17.33' W) Grid:
*FN20is*
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Re: [Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[Tony Estep]

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 7:48 AM, rich hurd WC3T  wrote:

> I second the Dimension 4 nomination.  Just works...
>
===
Based on the recommendation by WC3T and others, I downloaded Dimension 4.
Installed in seconds, synced immediately, and as far as I can tell works FB.

73,
Tony KT0NY
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Re: [Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[M. George]

I use the free Meinberg NTP build on Windows 10.

https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/sw/ntp.htm

It disables the windows time service and runs as a service, plus there is a
cool monitor you can download too.  This full ntp implementation will
discipline your clock and allow you to select your ntp servers.  By far
this NTP time sync service will keep your clock synchronized better than
anything else even if not connected to the internet.  It will determine the
drift of your clock in PPM and continually tweak it via PLL logic to keep
it in check.

I also run a stratum 1 NTP server you can use if you like when you install
the Meinberg build of NTP: time.nc7j.com

Max NG7M

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 6:48 AM, rich hurd WC3T  wrote:

> I second the Dimension 4 nomination.  Just works. No fiddle involved.
>
> On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 07:26 Krug261--- via Elecraft <
> elecraft@mailman.qth.net> wrote:
>
> > After 15 years away from radio, I'm back, and want to enter the digital
> > modes. (How things have changed!) There is much opinion that a computer's
> > onboard time system (Win 10 for me) is inadequate for digital, e.g., the
> > WSJT-X user manual. So...
> > 1. Is this a correct assumption in all/most cases?
> > 2. Assuming you do feel it's necessary, which synchronization program
> > would you suggest? Considerations: ease of installation, ease of
> operation
> > (fully behind the scenes transparent?), least "invasive", etc.
> > Thanks.Bob, KA2TQVKX3 #9842
> > __
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> --
> ---
> 72,
> Rich Hurd / WC3T / DMR: 3142737
> PA Army MARS, Northampton County RACES, EPA-ARRL Public Information Officer
> for Scouting
> Latitude: 40.761621 Longitude: -75.288988  (40°45.68' N 75°17.33' W) Grid:
> *FN20is*
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-- 
M. George
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Re: [Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[rich hurd WC3T]

I second the Dimension 4 nomination.  Just works. No fiddle involved.

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 07:26 Krug261--- via Elecraft <
elecraft@mailman.qth.net> wrote:

> After 15 years away from radio, I'm back, and want to enter the digital
> modes. (How things have changed!) There is much opinion that a computer's
> onboard time system (Win 10 for me) is inadequate for digital, e.g., the
> WSJT-X user manual. So...
> 1. Is this a correct assumption in all/most cases?
> 2. Assuming you do feel it's necessary, which synchronization program
> would you suggest? Considerations: ease of installation, ease of operation
> (fully behind the scenes transparent?), least "invasive", etc.
> Thanks.Bob, KA2TQVKX3 #9842
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---
72,
Rich Hurd / WC3T / DMR: 3142737
PA Army MARS, Northampton County RACES, EPA-ARRL Public Information Officer
for Scouting
Latitude: 40.761621 Longitude: -75.288988  (40°45.68' N 75°17.33' W) Grid:
*FN20is*
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Re: [Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[Joe DeVincentis]

I use a GPS and NMEATime2 from VisualGPS (http://www.visualgps.net).  Works 
great and I’m not relying on any Internet for time synchronization.

One word of caution, be sure to turn off serial enumeration for the GPS COM 
port (if it uses one).  Otherwise, Windows will think your GPS is a mouse due 
to some of the strings the GPS transmits.  This ancient code Microsoft has in 
Windows to support plug and play of serial mice (who uses serial mice anymore? 
- I’m not sure you can even buy one these days).  I believe the setting should 
be off by default, but not in Microsoft’s infinite wisdom.  The serial port 
enumeration setting is found in the advanced settings for the COM port.  

Joe, KO8V


> On Sep 13, 2017, at 6:26 AM, Krug261--- via Elecraft 
>  wrote:
> 
> After 15 years away from radio, I'm back, and want to enter the digital 
> modes. (How things have changed!) There is much opinion that a computer's 
> onboard time system (Win 10 for me) is inadequate for digital, e.g., the 
> WSJT-X user manual. So...
> 1. Is this a correct assumption in all/most cases?
> 2. Assuming you do feel it's necessary, which synchronization program would 
> you suggest? Considerations: ease of installation, ease of operation (fully 
> behind the scenes transparent?), least "invasive", etc.
> Thanks.Bob, KA2TQVKX3 #9842
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[Tommy]

 Bob,

  I use Dimension 4.

73!

Tom - KB2SMS


On 09/13/2017 07:26 AM, Krug261--- via Elecraft wrote:

After 15 years away from radio, I'm back, and want to enter the digital modes. 
(How things have changed!) There is much opinion that a computer's onboard time 
system (Win 10 for me) is inadequate for digital, e.g., the WSJT-X user manual. 
So...
1. Is this a correct assumption in all/most cases?
2. Assuming you do feel it's necessary, which synchronization program would you suggest? 
Considerations: ease of installation, ease of operation (fully behind the scenes 
transparent?), least "invasive", etc.
Thanks.Bob, KA2TQVKX3 #9842



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[Elecraft] Time Syncronization

[Krug261--- via Elecraft]

After 15 years away from radio, I'm back, and want to enter the digital modes. 
(How things have changed!) There is much opinion that a computer's onboard time 
system (Win 10 for me) is inadequate for digital, e.g., the WSJT-X user manual. 
So...
1. Is this a correct assumption in all/most cases?
2. Assuming you do feel it's necessary, which synchronization program would you 
suggest? Considerations: ease of installation, ease of operation (fully behind 
the scenes transparent?), least "invasive", etc.
Thanks.Bob, KA2TQVKX3 #9842
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