Re: [Elecraft] Vacuum Relays and 30 WPM QSK

[Bob Nielsen]

I forgot to send to the list.


On 3/2/17 12:01 AM, Bob Nielsen wrote:
The DX Connection QSK-2500 switch has provision for adjusting the 
various delays and can handle a wide range of transceivers and 
amplifiers.  When correctly configured, it will not hot switch when 
keyed, protecting the life of the relays.  It was reviewed in the 
September 2016 issue of QST.


73, Bob N7XY


On 2/28/17 10:29 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
Of course. beginning with the K2, all Elecraft rigs have a delay 
built in -- that is, TX begins 8 msec or more after the amp control 
line is keyed. On the K3 and later relays, the delay is adjustable. 8 
msec is enough for most amps with GOOD relays (vacuum relays), but 
not enough for slower relays. Every rig I've used since getting back 
on the air in 2003 had that delay built in. Those rigs included 
TS850, Omni V, and FT1000MP.


73, Jim K9YC

On Tue,2/28/2017 8:35 PM, n0...@juno.com wrote:

The "secrete" to running QSK with an amplifier is proper sequencing
of whatever keying is used...relays or PINs.



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Re: [Elecraft] Vacuum Relays and 30 WPM QSK

[Jim Brown]

Of course. beginning with the K2, all Elecraft rigs have a delay built 
in -- that is, TX begins 8 msec or more after the amp control line is 
keyed. On the K3 and later relays, the delay is adjustable. 8 msec is 
enough for most amps with GOOD relays (vacuum relays), but not enough 
for slower relays. Every rig I've used since getting back on the air in 
2003 had that delay built in. Those rigs included TS850, Omni V, and 
FT1000MP.


73, Jim K9YC

On Tue,2/28/2017 8:35 PM, n0...@juno.com wrote:

The "secrete" to running QSK with an amplifier is proper sequencing
of whatever keying is used...relays or PINs.



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[Elecraft] Vacuum Relays and 30 WPM QSK

[n0tt1]

On Sun,2/26/2017 3:04 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
> But even though the K3 is cycling TX/RX very fast the 8410 is not
banging
> the vacuum relay to death trying to follow 30 wpm dits. 30 wpm
QSK*does*
> significantly shorten relay time to failure. Contesting, I've worn some
out
> in less than a year.
 
>I own three very nice vintage Ten Tec amps that use vacuum relays. All 
of them came to me used, and I've replaced those relays in each amp at 
least once. After a few rounds of that, I stopped running QSK with those 
amps. :) I'd like to hear from others having experience with vacuum 
relays and QSK at contesting speeds. I mostly work between 28 and 32 
WPM. The original equipment relays were Jennings, and I've mostly used 
Gigavac as replacements. I haven't had to replace one since giving up on 
QSK about 8 years ago, but I really would like to run QSK. Have I made 
the right decision to avoid it when running with a vacuum relay?
 
73, Jim K9YC
---
Hi Gents,

The "secrete" to running QSK with an amplifier is proper sequencing
of whatever keying is used...relays or PINs.

I still have, and use, my old Alpha 86 which uses PIN diodes, but
it is set up to be keyed *first*.  When the Alpha is ready to transmit, 
*then* the keying signal is passed on to my K3 or whatever radio
I have connected to it.  If I just key a radio first, without the
amplifier being set up, the amp will "trip out" and announce
that it had a "T-R" fault.  

Keying a radio ("exciter"), then keying a amp, will cause
hot-switching unless there is a built-in delay of RF from the radio.

73,
Charlie, N0TT

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Re: [Elecraft] Vacuum Relays and 30 WPM QSK

[Chester Alderman]

Aren't PIN diodes still a high power 'pipe dream' for ham applications?? Alpha 
had only limited success with PIN switching, not because the diodes could not 
switch at high speeds with power, but way too many hams would test their 
antenna system with bad SWR, or tune their amp into a load with full power 
output.. While those PIN diodes could withstand the peak forward voltage at 
1500 watts of power, very few of them could withstand the peak reverse voltage 
when the driven load had high SWR! Because most hams are not "careful" when 
tuning a high power amplifier, Alpha gave up the better PIN diode RF switch 
approach in favor of 'fast' mechanical relays. 

I used to run QRQ CW speeds in excess of 60/70 wpm (and faster) with outputs of 
1500 watts,, but I had to replace my TenTec Titan amp T/R relay annually! 
(Never could afford an Alpha amp until recently!)

73,
Tom - W4BQF



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Dr. 
William J. Schmidt
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 1:17 AM
To: j...@audiosystemsgroup.com
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Vacuum Relays and 30 WPM QSK

Pin diode rf switches are preferred today.  You can even get the QSK-5 kit from 
Ameritron if you can't make your own.   Good to 2500 watts and infinite speed. 


Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ
 
Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois
 
Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

email:  b...@wjschmidt.com
 

> On Feb 27, 2017, at 10:28 PM, Jim Brown <j...@audiosystemsgroup.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Sun,2/26/2017 3:04 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>> But even though the K3 is cycling TX/RX very fast the 8410 is not 
>> banging the vacuum relay to death trying to follow 30 wpm dits. 30 
>> wpm QSK*does* significantly shorten relay time to failure. 
>> Contesting, I've worn some out in less than a year.
> 
> I own three very nice vintage Ten Tec amps that use vacuum relays. All of 
> them came to me used, and I've replaced those relays in each amp at least 
> once. After a few rounds of that, I stopped running QSK with those amps. :) 
> I'd like to hear from others having experience with vacuum relays and QSK at 
> contesting speeds. I mostly work between 28 and 32 WPM. The original 
> equipment relays were Jennings, and I've mostly used Gigavac as replacements. 
> I haven't had to replace one since giving up on QSK about 8 years ago, but I 
> really would like to run QSK. Have I made the right decision to avoid it when 
> running with a vacuum relay?
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
> 
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[Elecraft] Vacuum Relays and 30 WPM QSK

[Chuck Guenther]

I gave up on full QSK several years ago when I started using an active 
receive antenna and a DXE phase controller.  Could not put all that 
stuff inside the keying loop of my Ten Tec Centurion. After the second 
failure of the Centurion QSK board and associated parts, I switched to a 
simple and reliable ACOM 1010 amplifier.


73, Chuck  NI0C


On Sun,2/26/2017 3:04 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
/But even though the K3 is cycling TX/RX very fast the 8410 is not banging />/the vacuum relay to death trying to follow 30 wpm dits. 30 wpm QSK*does* />/significantly shorten relay time to failure. Contesting, I've worn some 

out />/in less than a year. /
I own three very nice vintage Ten Tec amps that use vacuum relays. All
of them came to me used, and I've replaced those relays in each amp at
least once. After a few rounds of that, I stopped running QSK with those
amps. :) I'd like to hear from others having experience with vacuum
relays and QSK at contesting speeds. I mostly work between 28 and 32
WPM. The original equipment relays were Jennings, and I've mostly used
Gigavac as replacements. I haven't had to replace one since giving up on
QSK about 8 years ago, but I really would like to run QSK. Have I made
the right decision to avoid it when running with a vacuum relay?

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Vacuum Relays and 30 WPM QSK

[N2TK, Tony]

For years with slower keying rigs I would key the amp which would key the
rig. This saved relays. 
When Kenwood came out with the TS-930. 940 etc. they had very nice QSK. But
it was best to use a Mosfet or something to key the amp rather than the
internal rig's relay which was too slow.
I used to key my 2000A then key the rig till I got my first K3. Now I key
the K3 which keys the amp. 

If I am running I do not use QSK. It gives my ears a break. But if I am
hunting and pecking I always use QSK and wish more did also to minimize QRM.

I have no complaints after 17 years of use of the 2000A and only having to
change the vacuum relay once. A very small price to pay for the luxury of
QSK. 
And changing a vacuum relay is usually a lot cheaper than changing the
switching diodes which failed in quite a few Alphas.
Next time you have a vacuum relay fail cut it open to see if the contacts
are burnt from hot switching.

73,
N2TK, Tony

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim
Brown
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 11:28 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] Vacuum Relays and 30 WPM QSK

On Sun,2/26/2017 3:04 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
> But even though the K3 is cycling TX/RX very fast the 8410 is not 
> banging the vacuum relay to death trying to follow 30 wpm dits. 30 wpm 
> QSK*does* significantly shorten relay time to failure. Contesting, 
> I've worn some out in less than a year.

I own three very nice vintage Ten Tec amps that use vacuum relays. All of
them came to me used, and I've replaced those relays in each amp at least
once. After a few rounds of that, I stopped running QSK with those amps. :)
I'd like to hear from others having experience with vacuum relays and QSK at
contesting speeds. I mostly work between 28 and 32 WPM. The original
equipment relays were Jennings, and I've mostly used Gigavac as
replacements. I haven't had to replace one since giving up on QSK about 8
years ago, but I really would like to run QSK. Have I made the right
decision to avoid it when running with a vacuum relay?

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] Vacuum Relays and 30 WPM QSK

[Vic Rosenthal]

I just had to replace one in my TL922 after about 5 years. I'm not a contester, 
but sometimes I bang away in pileups for a while. I have finally taught myself 
not to use QSK unless I need it. Setting the delay in the K3 to just enough to 
keep the relays closed between CW elements is almost as good but saves a lot of 
operations.
When the pileup is fast enough that I want QSK, it's a button press away.
-- 
Vic 4X6GP

On February 28, 2017 6:28:06 AM GMT+02:00, Jim Brown 
 wrote:
>On Sun,2/26/2017 3:04 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>> But even though the K3 is cycling TX/RX very fast the 8410 is not
>banging
>> the vacuum relay to death trying to follow 30 wpm dits. 30 wpm
>QSK*does*
>> significantly shorten relay time to failure. Contesting, I've worn
>some out
>> in less than a year.
>
>I own three very nice vintage Ten Tec amps that use vacuum relays. All 
>of them came to me used, and I've replaced those relays in each amp at 
>least once. After a few rounds of that, I stopped running QSK with
>those 
>amps. :) I'd like to hear from others having experience with vacuum 
>relays and QSK at contesting speeds. I mostly work between 28 and 32 
>WPM. The original equipment relays were Jennings, and I've mostly used 
>Gigavac as replacements. I haven't had to replace one since giving up
>on 
>QSK about 8 years ago, but I really would like to run QSK. Have I made 
>the right decision to avoid it when running with a vacuum relay?
>
>73, Jim K9YC
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Vacuum Relays and 30 WPM QSK

[Dr. William J. Schmidt]

Pin diode rf switches are preferred today.  You can even get the QSK-5 kit from 
Ameritron if you can't make your own.   Good to 2500 watts and infinite speed. 


Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ
 
Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois
 
Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

email:  b...@wjschmidt.com
 

> On Feb 27, 2017, at 10:28 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
>> On Sun,2/26/2017 3:04 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>> But even though the K3 is cycling TX/RX very fast the 8410 is not banging
>> the vacuum relay to death trying to follow 30 wpm dits. 30 wpm QSK*does*
>> significantly shorten relay time to failure. Contesting, I've worn some out
>> in less than a year.
> 
> I own three very nice vintage Ten Tec amps that use vacuum relays. All of 
> them came to me used, and I've replaced those relays in each amp at least 
> once. After a few rounds of that, I stopped running QSK with those amps. :) 
> I'd like to hear from others having experience with vacuum relays and QSK at 
> contesting speeds. I mostly work between 28 and 32 WPM. The original 
> equipment relays were Jennings, and I've mostly used Gigavac as replacements. 
> I haven't had to replace one since giving up on QSK about 8 years ago, but I 
> really would like to run QSK. Have I made the right decision to avoid it when 
> running with a vacuum relay?
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Vacuum Relays and 30 WPM QSK

[WILLIE BABER]

I have worn out vacuum relays in qsk amps too (replaced only one time in my 12 
year-old Alpha 99).  In fact, qsk with vacuum relays is not really qsk in that 
a vacuum relay is not as fast and silent as what I experienced using Alpha 89, 
which had switching diodes in it. Alpha 89 to me is the only qsk amp I have 
used (at ny4a).  You could, in fact, hear been characters at 30 wpm.  

I was disappointed when I purchased my first vacuum relay amp, Alpha 99.  Alpha 
99 was defined as qsk but it didn't switch like an Alpha 89.  Seems silly now 
but since Alpha 99 was defined as "qsk" I expected it to behavior like Alpha 
89.   

I even looked around for awhile for an Alpha 89, but then learn how easy it is 
to blow the diodes in Alpha 89--many owners replaced those expensive diodes, 
once blown, with vacuum relays.  So, I just decided to run "almost qsk" 
compared to Alpha 89.

73, Will, wj9b  

CWops #1085
CWA Advisor levels II and III
http://cwops.org/


On Mon, 2/27/17, Jim Brown <j...@audiosystemsgroup.com> wrote:

 Subject: [Elecraft] Vacuum Relays and 30 WPM QSK
 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 Date: Monday, February 27, 2017, 9:28 PM
 
 On Sun,2/26/2017 3:04 PM,
 Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
 > But even though
 the K3 is cycling TX/RX very fast the 8410 is not banging
 > the vacuum relay to death trying to follow
 30 wpm dits. 30 wpm QSK*does*
 >
 significantly shorten relay time to failure. Contesting,
 I've worn some out
 > in less than a
 year.
 
 I own three very nice
 vintage Ten Tec amps that use vacuum relays. All 
 of them came to me used, and I've replaced
 those relays in each amp at 
 least once.
 After a few rounds of that, I stopped running QSK with those
 
 amps. :) I'd like to hear from others
 having experience with vacuum 
 relays and
 QSK at contesting speeds. I mostly work between 28 and 32
 
 WPM. The original equipment relays were
 Jennings, and I've mostly used 
 Gigavac
 as replacements. I haven't had to replace one since
 giving up on 
 QSK about 8 years ago, but I
 really would like to run QSK. Have I made 
 the right decision to avoid it when running
 with a vacuum relay?
 
 73,
 Jim K9YC
 
 
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[Elecraft] Vacuum Relays and 30 WPM QSK

[Jim Brown]

On Sun,2/26/2017 3:04 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

But even though the K3 is cycling TX/RX very fast the 8410 is not banging
the vacuum relay to death trying to follow 30 wpm dits. 30 wpm QSK*does*
significantly shorten relay time to failure. Contesting, I've worn some out
in less than a year.


I own three very nice vintage Ten Tec amps that use vacuum relays. All 
of them came to me used, and I've replaced those relays in each amp at 
least once. After a few rounds of that, I stopped running QSK with those 
amps. :) I'd like to hear from others having experience with vacuum 
relays and QSK at contesting speeds. I mostly work between 28 and 32 
WPM. The original equipment relays were Jennings, and I've mostly used 
Gigavac as replacements. I haven't had to replace one since giving up on 
QSK about 8 years ago, but I really would like to run QSK. Have I made 
the right decision to avoid it when running with a vacuum relay?


73, Jim K9YC


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