[Elecraft] Volume Level with NR
Hi, I've noticed recently that when I press NR the volume level drops what could be called a considerable amount. I normally use NR setting of F-1-1 or -2. More than that tends to almost mute the receiver. I find that the volume control needs to be increased about 70 degrees or so to give the same loudness as before the NR was pressed with the above settings. I have to manually change the volume every time I engage or disengage the NR. I realize that most likely there should be some decrease in loudness but this seems to be excessive. Does anyone have any meaningful experience or recommendations they can pass along. Thank you. Take Pride in the USA! 73, Jim, W0EM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Volume Level with NR
Jim, Some drop in apparent volume level is typical with NR. Part of the drop is due to the removal of noise. Part of it may be a psychoacoustic effect (sorry, I'm not an expert on this). You might also try setting F5-1. Settings from F5-x to F8-x use a different algorithm. 73, Wayne N6KR On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Jim Harris wrote: Hi, I've noticed recently that when I press NR the volume level drops what could be called a considerable amount. I normally use NR setting of F-1-1 or -2. More than that tends to almost mute the receiver. I find that the volume control needs to be increased about 70 degrees or so to give the same loudness as before the NR was pressed with the above settings. I have to manually change the volume every time I engage or disengage the NR. I realize that most likely there should be some decrease in loudness but this seems to be excessive. Does anyone have any meaningful experience or recommendations they can pass along. Thank you. Take Pride in the USA! 73, Jim, W0EM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Volume Level with NR
Wayne, I am going to disagree - I think its a real issue, and an area for K3 improvement. While I have not been to Jim's shack to hear what he is hearing, it sounds like what I have always observed, at least for SSB reception. Engaging the NR significantly reduces the overall audio level. When I engage the NR on my MkV or FT-847, the band noise drops away, but the perceived volume of the monitored voice stays about the same. It is rare that I need to touch the volume control. Yaesu NR is reasonably effective for turning a marginal signal into something that can be copied, and turning a strong signal with high band noise into something more pleasant to listen to. On the K3, engaging the NR in SSB drops both the noise and the apparent voice level substantially, requiring that the volume control be turned up [a lot] to copy the voice. But then the noise is also increased. Frequently it feels like the NR has done little to no good, but it is hard to tell. Perhaps the ratio between the band noise and the desired signal is improved, but overall I would say its not. Or not very much. The NR difference on SSB between the K3 and the Yaesu products I have used is large, and the K3 loses. It is the _only_ K3 feature I find which is sub-par, and only for SSB - NR for CW seems much more effective. 73, Dale N9XD On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:13 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote: Jim, Some drop in apparent volume level is typical with NR. Part of the drop is due to the removal of noise. Part of it may be a psychoacoustic effect (sorry, I'm not an expert on this). You might also try setting F5-1. Settings from F5-x to F8-x use a different algorithm. 73, Wayne N6KR On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Jim Harris wrote: Hi, I've noticed recently that when I press NR the volume level drops what could be called a considerable amount. I normally use NR setting of F-1-1 or -2. More than that tends to almost mute the receiver. I find that the volume control needs to be increased about 70 degrees or so to give the same loudness as before the NR was pressed with the above settings. I have to manually change the volume every time I engage or disengage the NR. I realize that most likely there should be some decrease in loudness but this seems to be excessive. Does anyone have any meaningful experience or recommendations they can pass along. Thank you. Take Pride in the USA! 73, Jim, W0EM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Volume Level with NR
Dale, I'll forward this to our DSP engineer, Lyle (KK7P). He's currently on vacation but will be able to respond to your comments when he returns. I do know that he worked very hard to equalize the NR on/off volume levels, and that in general, users have been very positive about the K3's noise reduction. Please make sure you're using the latest firmware. NR was improved in several steps, and later DSP revisions are definitely better in this regard. 73, Wayne N6KR On Oct 4, 2010, at 11:31 AM, Dale Wiese wrote: Wayne, I am going to disagree - I think its a real issue, and an area for K3 improvement. While I have not been to Jim's shack to hear what he is hearing, it sounds like what I have always observed, at least for SSB reception. Engaging the NR significantly reduces the overall audio level __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Volume Level with NR
This too has been my experience, although Lyle has done a good job with the recent updates. However, performance and volume levels in general are still sub par in my opinion. Compare the K3 with even an AF dsp solution like the Gap ANEM, and you'll see that a lot of work still remains to be done. 73 de James K2QI --Original Message-- From: Jim Harris Sender: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: [Elecraft] Volume Level with NR Sent: Oct 4, 2010 12:04 Hi, I've noticed recently that when I press NR the volume level drops what could be called a considerable amount. I normally use NR setting of F-1-1 or -2. More than that tends to almost mute the receiver. I find that the volume control needs to be increased about 70 degrees or so to give the same loudness as before the NR was pressed with the above settings. I have to manually change the volume every time I engage or disengage the NR. I realize that most likely there should be some decrease in loudness but this seems to be excessive. Does anyone have any meaningful experience or recommendations they can pass along. Thank you. Take Pride in the USA! 73, Jim, W0EM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Volume Level with NR
Have to agree. the issue has inproved with the last update but the audio is still weak and I find mself really\cranking up the gain Bob K3DJC On Mon, 4 Oct 2010 12:45:31 -0700 Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com writes: Dale, I'll forward this to our DSP engineer, Lyle (KK7P). He's currently on vacation but will be able to respond to your comments when he returns. I do know that he worked very hard to equalize the NR on/off volume levels, and that in general, users have been very positive about the K3's noise reduction. Please make sure you're using the latest firmware. NR was improved in several steps, and later DSP revisions are definitely better in this regard. 73, Wayne N6KR On Oct 4, 2010, at 11:31 AM, Dale Wiese wrote: Wayne, I am going to disagree - I think its a real issue, and an area for K3 improvement. While I have not been to Jim's shack to hear what he is hearing, it sounds like what I have always observed, at least for SSB reception. Engaging the NR significantly reduces the overall audio level __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Mortgage Rates Hit 3.25% If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Obama's Refi Program http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4caa5f8aeb49b2854em03vuc __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Volume Level with NR
Hi Jim, My experience is only with CW. If the band is just noisy and the signals are strong, turning on the NR results in more pleasing listening. But if the signals are generally weak like they might be on 10 or 15 meters, turning on the NR usually impairs readability at any setting. I have better success without NR. And yes I do increase volume with NR engaged but not as much as you have indicated. 73, Mike K2MK Jim HaRRIS wrote: Hi, I've noticed recently that when I press NR the volume level drops what could be called a considerable amount. I normally use NR setting of F-1-1 or -2. More than that tends to almost mute the receiver. I find that the volume control needs to be increased about 70 degrees or so to give the same loudness as before the NR was pressed with the above settings. I have to manually change the volume every time I engage or disengage the NR. I realize that most likely there should be some decrease in loudness but this seems to be excessive. Does anyone have any meaningful experience or recommendations they can pass along. Thank you. Take Pride in the USA! 73, Jim, W0EM -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Volume-Level-with-NR-tp5599761p5601316.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Volume Level with NR
These are my observations first with the K2 and ADSP, the the Flex radios both 1000 and 5000A and then finally and more recently the FT-2000 series of radios. You may take this for what it is worth This matter is highly subjective. One must remember that of the modes available to us as amateurs, speech is the more closely associated with noise. Noise reduction algorithms work on the basis of coherency or lack thereof. A steady carrier would be an example of a coherent signal. Speech lacks coherency. White noise is without coherence. Therefore there has to be a compomrise when one applies noise reduction to speech. The speech will be further compromised, the more aggressive an algorithm is used. Further, one might find an algorithm that works well at one site, may be totally ineffective at another location. Noise as we as amateurs know, can take on many personalities. Atmospherics, line noise, thermal noise the list just goes on. I think most of us will find within the algorithms and aggressiveness present in the K3, something that works well for us. To achieve something that is perfect for all, would seem to be very difficult indeed. I have not been able to reproduce the drastic change in volume reported by some here. I can only wait with you for the resolution of your situation and provide the following information in the hope it might shed some light. My K3 is a recent one, just a couple of weeks old and is running the following firmware and software: MCU 4.06, DSP 2.60. 73s Jim, W4ATK __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Volume Level with NR
Wayne, Thank you for your response. When I first got my radio I tried the F5 and up setting but found they, to me, muffled the audio. That was many revisions ago so I will give them another go. I've found in some instances it's better for me to not use the NR function than to use it and deal with it's situations. I'm sure an external sound meter would show a reduction in volume. Perhaps in software it's possible to add a comparable amount of gain to boost the volume. I've tried setting the audio control near max and riding the RF gain and the results are similar to RF gain fully up and riding the audio gain. BTW, a great notch function and a NB that really blanks noise. I probably use them more than the NR. Take Pride in the USA! 73, Jim, W0EM CC: elecraft@mailman.qth.net From: n...@elecraft.com To: w...@q.com Subject: Re: Volume Level with NR Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 09:13:54 -0700 Jim, Some drop in apparent volume level is typical with NR. Part of the drop is due to the removal of noise. Part of it may be a psychoacoustic effect (sorry, I'm not an expert on this). You might also try setting F5-1. Settings from F5-x to F8-x use a different algorithm. 73, Wayne N6KR On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Jim Harris wrote: Hi, I've noticed recently that when I press NR the volume level drops what could be called a considerable amount. I normally use NR setting of F-1-1 or -2. More than that tends to almost mute the receiver. I find that the volume control needs to be increased about 70 degrees or so to give the same loudness as before the NR was pressed with the above settings. I have to manually change the volume every time I engage or disengage the NR. I realize that most likely there should be some decrease in loudness but this seems to be excessive. Does anyone have any meaningful experience or recommendations they can pass along. Thank you. Take Pride in the USA! 73, Jim, W0EM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Volume Level with NR
Bob, In general I recommend just sticking with the defaults for all AGC menu entries. We worked hard on these :) I'm sure others will have some suggestions for you. 73, Wayne N6KR On Oct 4, 2010, at 6:50 PM, riese-k3...@juno.com wrote: how bout some gidelines for AGC settings Bob K3DJC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
