Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC??? Real RS-232 ports

2016-01-05 Thread Cliff Frescura 
I agree with N1MGO,

I've come full circle on this one and am in the process of removing all of
the USB/RS-232 converters in my setup and reinstalling a 4 port card that I
had in an old XP system (drivers work fine).

Determining what is a quality USB/RS-232 serial adapter is not always clear.
There are potential driver issues as well as suspect RF shielding.  Some of
these devices don't enable you to securely connect to both ends (no screw
connections, so the connector is not securely seated).  They are just
another (additional) point of failure.  Plus you are also now dealing with
limitations of USB (re: polling).

The FTDI chipset and drivers seem the most reliable and if you want to take
apart your newly purchased converter, you can determine if the chipset is
counterfeit.

http://hackaday.com/2014/02/19/ft232rl-real-or-fake/

If you need only 1 RS-232 port I would go with a converter, but once you get
above 2, then I think it is a good choice.


73,

Cliff K3LL



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Tim
Tucker
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 10:44 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC???

I haven't had used a "real" (old fashioned) serial port on any PC that
controls radio equipment in probably 10 years.  It's really not necessary if
you purchase quality USB/Serial adapters (no fake chipsets) where needed.
The only PC I have with a old-fashioned serial port is an ancient Toshiba
laptop I keep around that runs DOS so I can program old Motorola radios.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Gordon LaPoint 
wrote:

> You should consider adding real RS232 ports, at least 2 or 4 if you 
> will ever run two radios, and even more if you want to control rotors, 
> amps
> (KPA-500) or other accessories.
>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC??? Real RS-232 ports

2016-01-05 Thread Doug Person via Elecraft 
A 4-port card is NOT a native RS-232 port. PCI is just another bus add 
on.  There no difference between running 1 or 4 USB to RS-232 
converters.  You can buy a 4 port FTDI converter that runs off a single 
USB port from Amazon that will run everything you could ever want.  I 
run 80's vintage lab equipment off them and they don't know the difference.


Also, don't get Windows 7 or 8.  Windows 10 is the only choice for 
Windows.  7 and 8 are obsolete and support will get lighter and lighter 
and then vanish completely.


Doug -- K0DXV

On 1/5/2016 12:24 PM, Cliff Frescura wrote:

I agree with N1MGO,

I've come full circle on this one and am in the process of removing all of
the USB/RS-232 converters in my setup and reinstalling a 4 port card that I
had in an old XP system (drivers work fine).

Determining what is a quality USB/RS-232 serial adapter is not always clear.
There are potential driver issues as well as suspect RF shielding.  Some of
these devices don't enable you to securely connect to both ends (no screw
connections, so the connector is not securely seated).  They are just
another (additional) point of failure.  Plus you are also now dealing with
limitations of USB (re: polling).

The FTDI chipset and drivers seem the most reliable and if you want to take
apart your newly purchased converter, you can determine if the chipset is
counterfeit.

http://hackaday.com/2014/02/19/ft232rl-real-or-fake/

If you need only 1 RS-232 port I would go with a converter, but once you get
above 2, then I think it is a good choice.


73,

Cliff K3LL



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Tim
Tucker
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 10:44 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC???

I haven't had used a "real" (old fashioned) serial port on any PC that
controls radio equipment in probably 10 years.  It's really not necessary if
you purchase quality USB/Serial adapters (no fake chipsets) where needed.
The only PC I have with a old-fashioned serial port is an ancient Toshiba
laptop I keep around that runs DOS so I can program old Motorola radios.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Gordon LaPoint 
wrote:


You should consider adding real RS232 ports, at least 2 or 4 if you
will ever run two radios, and even more if you want to control rotors,
amps
(KPA-500) or other accessories.




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Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC??? Real RS-232 ports

2016-01-05 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV 


On 1/5/2016 5:32 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:

A 4-port card is NOT a native RS-232 port. PCI is just another bus
add on.


*Absolutely incorrect*.  A USB to serial converter *of any kind* -
other than the Edgeport products - can not do 45.45, 50, 75 or 100
baud RTTY.  All of the multi-port RS-232 PCI and PCIe cards handle
that task with no problem (although Windows will set 45.45 baud to
45 baud because the API is integer based).

PCI and PCIe based serial and parallel port cards are true memory
addressed ports like motherboard or (obsolete) ISA bus ports - not
USB devices that suffer from latency and driver buffer issues.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


On 1/5/2016 5:32 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:

A 4-port card is NOT a native RS-232 port. PCI is just another bus add
on.  There no difference between running 1 or 4 USB to RS-232
converters.  You can buy a 4 port FTDI converter that runs off a single
USB port from Amazon that will run everything you could ever want.  I
run 80's vintage lab equipment off them and they don't know the difference.

Also, don't get Windows 7 or 8.  Windows 10 is the only choice for
Windows.  7 and 8 are obsolete and support will get lighter and lighter
and then vanish completely.

Doug -- K0DXV

On 1/5/2016 12:24 PM, Cliff Frescura wrote:

I agree with N1MGO,

I've come full circle on this one and am in the process of removing
all of
the USB/RS-232 converters in my setup and reinstalling a 4 port card
that I
had in an old XP system (drivers work fine).

Determining what is a quality USB/RS-232 serial adapter is not always
clear.
There are potential driver issues as well as suspect RF shielding.
Some of
these devices don't enable you to securely connect to both ends (no screw
connections, so the connector is not securely seated).  They are just
another (additional) point of failure.  Plus you are also now dealing
with
limitations of USB (re: polling).

The FTDI chipset and drivers seem the most reliable and if you want to
take
apart your newly purchased converter, you can determine if the chipset is
counterfeit.

http://hackaday.com/2014/02/19/ft232rl-real-or-fake/

If you need only 1 RS-232 port I would go with a converter, but once
you get
above 2, then I think it is a good choice.


73,

Cliff K3LL



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Tim
Tucker
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 10:44 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC???

I haven't had used a "real" (old fashioned) serial port on any PC that
controls radio equipment in probably 10 years.  It's really not
necessary if
you purchase quality USB/Serial adapters (no fake chipsets) where needed.
The only PC I have with a old-fashioned serial port is an ancient Toshiba
laptop I keep around that runs DOS so I can program old Motorola radios.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Gordon LaPoint

wrote:


You should consider adding real RS232 ports, at least 2 or 4 if you
will ever run two radios, and even more if you want to control rotors,
amps
(KPA-500) or other accessories.




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Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC??? Real RS-232 ports

2016-01-05 Thread WB4JFI 
Original serial and parallel ports on the original IBM backplane were I/O port 
mapped, not memory mapped.  There were discrepancies between port numbers 
between the true IBM I/O port numbers and "clones".  Ports 3F8 and 2F8 for COM1 
and 2, 3E8 and 2E8 for COM3 and 4.   On a true original IBM, the first parallel 
port was 3BC, while most clones used 378 for the first parallel port.  Note 
that these are input/output mapped, NOT memory mapped.

I'm not sure that PCI and PCIe serial and parallel port devices are truly I/O 
mapped (probably not), or memory mapped, but in either case, they are not true 
serial or parallel hardware devices, but something that emulates them.  PCIe is 
itself a high-speed serial interface, so there must be some interpretation.

Of course, even the older ISA cards ended up using ASIC devices to emulate 
serial and parallel ports, but that was hardware based.
73, Terry, N4TLF

Sent from tfox iPad

> On Jan 5, 2016, at 5:54 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 1/5/2016 5:32 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:
>> A 4-port card is NOT a native RS-232 port. PCI is just another bus
>> add on.
> 
> *Absolutely incorrect*.  A USB to serial converter *of any kind* -
> other than the Edgeport products - can not do 45.45, 50, 75 or 100
> baud RTTY.  All of the multi-port RS-232 PCI and PCIe cards handle
> that task with no problem (although Windows will set 45.45 baud to
> 45 baud because the API is integer based).
> 
> PCI and PCIe based serial and parallel port cards are true memory
> addressed ports like motherboard or (obsolete) ISA bus ports - not
> USB devices that suffer from latency and driver buffer issues.
> 
> 73,
> 
>  ... Joe, W4TV
> 
> 
>> On 1/5/2016 5:32 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:
>> A 4-port card is NOT a native RS-232 port. PCI is just another bus add
>> on.  There no difference between running 1 or 4 USB to RS-232
>> converters.  You can buy a 4 port FTDI converter that runs off a single
>> USB port from Amazon that will run everything you could ever want.  I
>> run 80's vintage lab equipment off them and they don't know the difference.
>> 
>> Also, don't get Windows 7 or 8.  Windows 10 is the only choice for
>> Windows.  7 and 8 are obsolete and support will get lighter and lighter
>> and then vanish completely.
>> 
>> Doug -- K0DXV
>> 
>>> On 1/5/2016 12:24 PM, Cliff Frescura wrote:
>>> I agree with N1MGO,
>>> 
>>> I've come full circle on this one and am in the process of removing
>>> all of
>>> the USB/RS-232 converters in my setup and reinstalling a 4 port card
>>> that I
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Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC??? Real RS-232 ports

2016-01-05 Thread Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft 
Folks - we're getting pretty OT. Lets wind this thread down at this time in the 
interest of keeping the signal to noise level reasonable for other readers.


73,

Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 1/5/2016 4:07 PM, WB4JFI wrote:

Original serial and parallel ports on the original IBM backplane were I/O port mapped, 
not memory mapped.  There were discrepancies between port numbers between the true IBM 
I/O port numbers and "clones".  Ports 3F8 and 2F8 for COM1 and 2, 3E8 and 2E8 
for COM3 and 4.   On a true original IBM, the first parallel port was 3BC, while most 
clones used 378 for the first parallel port.  Note that these are input/output mapped, 
NOT memory mapped.

I'm not sure that PCI and PCIe serial and parallel port devices are truly I/O 
mapped (probably not), or memory mapped, but in either case, they are not true 
serial or parallel hardware devices, but something that emulates them.  PCIe is 
itself a high-speed serial interface, so there must be some interpretation.

Of course, even the older ISA cards ended up using ASIC devices to emulate 
serial and parallel ports, but that was hardware based.
73, Terry, N4TLF

Sent from tfox iPad


On Jan 5, 2016, at 5:54 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:



On 1/5/2016 5:32 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:
A 4-port card is NOT a native RS-232 port. PCI is just another bus
add on.

*Absolutely incorrect*.  A USB to serial converter *of any kind* -
other than the Edgeport products - can not do 45.45, 50, 75 or 100
baud RTTY.  All of the multi-port RS-232 PCI and PCIe cards handle
that task with no problem (although Windows will set 45.45 baud to
45 baud because the API is integer based).

PCI and PCIe based serial and parallel port cards are true memory
addressed ports like motherboard or (obsolete) ISA bus ports - not
USB devices that suffer from latency and driver buffer issues.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV



On 1/5/2016 5:32 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:
A 4-port card is NOT a native RS-232 port. PCI is just another bus add
on.  There no difference between running 1 or 4 USB to RS-232
converters.  You can buy a 4 port FTDI converter that runs off a single
USB port from Amazon that will run everything you could ever want.  I
run 80's vintage lab equipment off them and they don't know the difference.

Also, don't get Windows 7 or 8.  Windows 10 is the only choice for
Windows.  7 and 8 are obsolete and support will get lighter and lighter
and then vanish completely.

Doug -- K0DXV


On 1/5/2016 12:24 PM, Cliff Frescura wrote:
I agree with N1MGO,

I've come full circle on this one and am in the process of removing
all of
the USB/RS-232 converters in my setup and reinstalling a 4 port card
that I

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Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC??? Real RS-232 ports

2016-01-05 Thread Don Wilhelm 

I have to agree with Joe.

If you must use a USB to serial converter for serious all purpose use, 
get an Edgeport product.
There is a difference between a 'converter' and an 'adapter'.  Most USB 
to serial devices available in the consumer market are 'adapters' - the 
Edgeport was directed at the commercial market where many different 
terminal devices need to be supported.  It advertizes itself as a 
'converter' rather than an adapter.  I have a 4 port model and it has 
never failed to perform as expected, although I prefer to use real 
serial ports if possible.


Whether the serial card is plugged into an ISA bus, a PCI bus, or 
whatever kind of PC bus architecture, that bus is just a means of 
getting addressing and data to the card.  It is not an "add-on".


USB to serial adapters may work fine for many applications, but some 
have trouble with the slower data rate of the K2 (4800 bps). Usually the 
FTDI adapters will work, but some have problems at lower data rates.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/5/2016 5:54 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


On 1/5/2016 5:32 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:

A 4-port card is NOT a native RS-232 port. PCI is just another bus
add on.


*Absolutely incorrect*.  A USB to serial converter *of any kind* -
other than the Edgeport products - can not do 45.45, 50, 75 or 100
baud RTTY.


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Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC??? Real RS-232 ports

2016-01-05 Thread Jim Brown 
I agree with Joe. A 2-port Edgeport provides two good RS-232 ports for 
SO2R operation with my very new T540 Thinkpad.  It, and another Thinkpad 
bought around the same time, are the first I've ever owned that didn't 
have a hardware serial port either on the chassis or on a port 
replicator/docking station.  My older laptops have PCMCIA slots, which 
accept excellent cards that provide 2 hardware  RS-232 ports. They've 
been on a LOT of Field Days and California QSO Party county expeditions.


In today's world, 8 GB and an i7 processor is pretty much minimum; it 
runs four RTTY decoders (two on each of two radios for SO2R) 
simultaneously without any problem. I've added solid state drives to two 
laptops, and it's really speeded them up nicely.  One, a T61 Thinkpad, 
is 8 years old!


A local ham who makes his living doing IT for small biz, do  NOT 
recommend Win10, because it has a nasty habit of uninstalling software 
that it doesn't like. I'm sticking win Win7 until it dies.


73, Jim K9YC

On Tue,1/5/2016 2:54 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


On 1/5/2016 5:32 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:

A 4-port card is NOT a native RS-232 port. PCI is just another bus
add on.


*Absolutely incorrect*.  A USB to serial converter *of any kind* -
other than the Edgeport products - can not do 45.45, 50, 75 or 100
baud RTTY.  All of the multi-port RS-232 PCI and PCIe cards handle
that task with no problem (although Windows will set 45.45 baud to
45 baud because the API is integer based).

PCI and PCIe based serial and parallel port cards are true memory
addressed ports like motherboard or (obsolete) ISA bus ports - not
USB devices that suffer from latency and driver buffer issues.


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