RE: [Elecraft] Yaesu FT-2000 v K-3?
100 watts vs. 200 watts. 3 dB of gain. I think it does more for the operators ego confidence than it does for their signal. - Keith N1AS - - K2 5411.ssb.100 - ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Yaesu FT-2000 v K-3?
Darwin, Keith wrote: 100 watts vs. 200 watts. 3 dB of gain. I think it does more for the operators ego confidence than it does for their signal. I believe that the 200 watt version of the FT-2000 has a class-A mode of operation for SSB, which provides 75 watts output with much better IMD specs. This requires a beefier final stage. Although I don't operate SSB, my friends that do say that the general run of transceivers are pretty poor in terms of IMD (this is *before* the less-competent operators use excessive processing, change the settings of internal power adjustments, or yell into the mic), and they think that this feature is definitely a good thing. -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Yaesu FT-2000 v K-3?
Darwin, Keith wrote: 100 watts vs. 200 watts. 3 dB of gain. I think it does more for the operators ego confidence than it does for their signal. perhaps this might be better understood if we look at it from the idea of we are running qrp 5w now for some reason you want/need to get that last piece of info to/from the other party so you kick in the 200w's for that short term need. lots of difference between 5w to 200w = 18+db as compared to 100w to 1000w = 9+db hope I did the math correctly ;-/ -- GB 73's KA5OAI Sam Morgan ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Yaesu FT-2000 v K-3?
Well, db = 10 * log(p2/p1) 5w to 200w is actually +16 dB 100w to 1000w is +10 dB But hey, it's the thought that counts :-) -Original Message- From: Sam Morgan lots of difference between 5w to 200w = 18+db as compared to 100w to 1000w = 9+db hope I did the math correctly ;-/ ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Yaesu FT-2000 v K-3?
And more importantly, 5w to 100w is 13db. 13db is pretty close to 16dbg (Close, as in horseshoes and Atom Bombs). Dan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Darwin, Keith Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 1:08 PM To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Yaesu FT-2000 v K-3? Well, db = 10 * log(p2/p1) 5w to 200w is actually +16 dB 100w to 1000w is +10 dB But hey, it's the thought that counts :-) -Original Message- From: Sam Morgan lots of difference between 5w to 200w = 18+db as compared to 100w to 1000w = 9+db hope I did the math correctly ;-/ ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Yaesu FT-2000 v K-3?
In a message dated 5/11/07 12:57:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Darwin, Keith wrote: 100 watts vs. 200 watts. 3 dB of gain. I think it does more for the operators ego confidence than it does for their signal. Sometimes, that's enough. However, there's another side to it. In most HF amateur operation, you don't need a rig as good as an Elecraft to make lots of QSOs. Nor do you need big antennas or high power. 75+ years ago, the Ancient Ones regularly worked the Antipodes with QRP, wire antennas and regenerative receivers - and lots of skill. Where the difference becomes apparent is when you're pushing the limit of what can be done. Such as when conditions aren't good, or in a contest or pileup. That's when the difference in things like filters, MDS, BDR, IMD, etc., can make the difference between getting the QSO and not getting it, or a rate of X QSOs/hr and a rate of X+Y QSOs/hr. The competitive op is always looking for an improvement that meets the rules. That's how we got computer logging, better rigs, better antennas, and much more. If the contest allows A hours out of a total of B, the competitive ham will not only spend A hours on the air, but will figure out which hours are the most productive. If a slightly better filter or noise blanker helps, they'll go for it. And if the power class breaks at 200 W, s/he will want 200 watts. 73 de Jim, N2EY ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Yaesu FT-2000 v K-3?
There is a basic difference in the choice of IF frequencies. The Y2K main receiver has first IF at 69.45MHz, second at 450khz, and last at 30Khz for the DSP. The Elecraft has the first IF at 8.215Mhz and the second at 15Khz for DSP. This choice reveals a lot. There are many more choices (bandwidth, skirt, etc) for crystal filters at reasonable cost for a MF frequency such as 8.215 than for a VHF frequency of 69.45Mhz. Not surprising that Y offers only 15, 6, and 3Khz bandwidth filters for the first filter (roofing filter) at 69.45Mhz. Elecraft already has many more choices and still more to come. My guess is that with so many options available for the first filter in the rig, Elecraft will handily beat the Y2K in most receiver measurement numbers. Raj -- Rajiv Dewan, N2RD [EMAIL PROTECTED] FN13fc -- On May 10, 2007, at 9:48 AM, Lee Buller wrote: Arthur The FT2000 looks like a fine radio and if its like the FT1000MP...well...it will be a winner. But, the K3 looks like a fine radio too. But it boils down to this You can order at FT2000 right nowand get it in a week or so. You can order a K3 right nowbut you are going to wait away. How long? Very hard to say, but I think that E has been deluged with orders. So, the backlog is going to be rather hugh. I don't think they are shipping until the middle of the summer. There are a lot of offerings out there now with the new OMNI and the FT2000 and FT450 and now the K3. Knowing what my K2 does...and how well it works...and how much I love the radio...I am waiting for the K3. The k3 has features on ti the I,Y,K and the T have not provided. I think the RX numbers will be fantastic... well very competitive. The K3 has been engineered for Hams by Hams. That is a plus. Knowing the guys at E and understanding what they've done over the years, I think that my money is on the guys from Aptos, CA. So I would pick E over I, Y, K and T at this point.,,,but you going to have to WAIT! Lee - K0WA In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply. If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it. If you can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense. Is Common Sense devine? ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Yaesu FT-2000 v K-3?
Simon, The knob on the K3 is weighted and a custom design (and very nice as is). I don't think the physical size of the K3 could accomodate a larger knob. ...and...thanks for your great work with HRD! 73 Greg AB7R On Thu, 10 May 2007 18:49:39 +0200 Simon Brown (HB9DRV) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One area where Yaesu excels is the tuning knob, especially the FTDX-9000 which is a joy to use. A K3 add-on for later could be an external VFO - Elecraft or 3rd-party companies could then make luxurious dials, gold-plated even. A 2 inch tuning knob is too small IMO, but I rarely tune by hand anyway as I sit in the digital sub-bands and let the computer tune the radio. Simon Brown, HB9DRV - Original Message - From: Rajiv Dewan, N2RD [EMAIL PROTECTED] [chop] ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Yaesu FT-2000 v K-3?
Hi Greg, I'm thinking *external* in a nice brass box :-) Simon Brown, HB9DRV - Original Message - From: FISCHER,GREG [EMAIL PROTECTED] The knob on the K3 is weighted and a custom design (and very nice as is). I don't think the physical size of the K3 could accomodate a larger knob. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Yaesu FT-2000 v K-3?
On May 10, 2007, at 10:06 AM, Elliott Lawrence wrote: One thing that would help would be an additional option for a 200w capable radio the K3D!!! I wonder if that is a future possiblity??!! Do you really think that 3dB will be enough of an advantage? That is all you will get when you go from 100W to 200W. It seems to me that one needs at least 6dB to make enough difference to make the effort worthwhile. 6dB seems to be the difference between, I know you are there but I can't quite copy you, and, QSL. If you started at 100W then you would need 400W to make that difference. I tend to think that 10dB is about the right increment and that would be 1000W. That leads me to feel that if you need more power than 100W you are going to need an external amplifier. And then there is the issue of path symmetry. Path loss is going to be the same in both directions. Given that most rigs out there are in the 100W range the signal arriving at each end will be the same. Hmmm. Oh! The K3 is likely to have a much better receiver than the one the other guy is using. So if he is using 100W and you have acceptable copy on him you might need a 3dB-6dB improvement in your signal in order to deliver an equivalent readability signal to the other end. Interesting thought. Maybe a 200-300W PA wouldn't be such a bad idea after all. 73 de Brian, WB6RQN Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Yaesu FT-2000 v K-3?
Brian has some good points. Personally, I think the jump to 400-1000 Watts from 100 is so great that you really need to think of a separate amplifier. 100 W is clearly enough for 90% of QSOs (that I make, anyway), and it would be a shame to compromise a good 100 W transceiver package to allow for an internal QRO amp and/or power supply. After 40 years as a ham, I finally broke down and bought a used/upgraded SB-220 for my station. It has helped on occasion, and it's kind of an interesting piece of gear in its own right. One thing I have noticed, though, is that if I call CQ at 100 W, I get nice replies. If I call CQ at 1000 W, I get lots of very weak replies. That's the flip side of reciprocity. Yes, it's good to have a good receiver, but you may need to strain to work those marginal Q's. (Actually, that's half the fun, especially if it's Swains Island.) 73 Martin AA6E Brian Lloyd wrote: On May 10, 2007, at 10:06 AM, Elliott Lawrence wrote: One thing that would help would be an additional option for a 200w capable radio the K3D!!! I wonder if that is a future possiblity??!! Do you really think that 3dB will be enough of an advantage? That is all you will get when you go from 100W to 200W. It seems to me that one needs at least 6dB to make enough difference to make the effort worthwhile. 6dB seems to be the difference between, I know you are there but I can't quite copy you, and, QSL. If you started at 100W then you would need 400W to make that difference. I tend to think that 10dB is about the right increment and that would be 1000W. That leads me to feel that if you need more power than 100W you are going to need an external amplifier. And then there is the issue of path symmetry. Path loss is going to be the same in both directions. Given that most rigs out there are in the 100W range the signal arriving at each end will be the same. Hmmm. Oh! The K3 is likely to have a much better receiver than the one the other guy is using. So if he is using 100W and you have acceptable copy on him you might need a 3dB-6dB improvement in your signal in order to deliver an equivalent readability signal to the other end. Interesting thought. Maybe a 200-300W PA wouldn't be such a bad idea after all. 73 de Brian, WB6RQN Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Yaesu FT-2000 v K-3?
There's one more thing to consider. I contest at the 5W level, and work almost everything I can hear eventually. That being the case, 100w might let me work those stations a bit sooner, but once I've done that, those 100w won't help me hear any better. Gotta hear them to work them. Money spent on an improved antenna system would far outweigh money spent on extra power, especially at the 3dB increase level. 73, Bob N6WG - Original Message - From: Brian Lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Elliott Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Yaesu FT-2000 v K-3? On May 10, 2007, at 10:06 AM, Elliott Lawrence wrote: One thing that would help would be an additional option for a 200w capable radio the K3D!!! I wonder if that is a future possiblity??!! Do you really think that 3dB will be enough of an advantage? That is all you will get when you go from 100W to 200W. It seems to me that one needs at least 6dB to make enough difference to make the effort worthwhile. 6dB seems to be the difference between, I know you are there but I can't quite copy you, and, QSL. If you started at 100W then you would need 400W to make that difference. I tend to think that 10dB is about the right increment and that would be 1000W. That leads me to feel that if you need more power than 100W you are going to need an external amplifier. And then there is the issue of path symmetry. Path loss is going to be the same in both directions. Given that most rigs out there are in the 100W range the signal arriving at each end will be the same. Hmmm. Oh! The K3 is likely to have a much better receiver than the one the other guy is using. So if he is using 100W and you have acceptable copy on him you might need a 3dB-6dB improvement in your signal in order to deliver an equivalent readability signal to the other end. Interesting thought. Maybe a 200-300W PA wouldn't be such a bad idea after all. 73 de Brian, WB6RQN Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Yaesu FT-2000 v K-3?
On May 10, 2007, at 4:54 PM, Bill W5WVO wrote: Readability reciprocity is a very interesting question. Since I'm a 6M operator, things might be a little different for me than on the HF bands, but probably not all that much. Yeah, I was forgetting the difference in noise floor. Sorry. Never mind. :-) 73 de Brian, WB6RQN Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
