Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Guys - please take this off reflector until you are in agreement.

73

Eric
List Moderator
/elecraft.com/

On 2/5/2016 8:15 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

Gee, Wes. It's only basic RF engineering.

If you'd care to be specific about any objection, please do so. I'll be glad
to get into details on or off the reflector.

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wes
(N7WS)
Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2016 4:18 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

I just pinched myself; I'm not dreaming and it's not April 1st, so I guess
you're serious.

You are also so wrong on so many points, I'm not going to waste time trying
to refute or correct them.

Jim, please ignore everything said below.

Wes  N7WS



On 2/4/2016 3:05 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

Your feed line will do the job by itself so no additional "balun" is

needed.

Keep in mind that a 1:1 balun is really just a length of feed line,
usually wound on a toroidal core to make the required length shorter
than if it was in open air. The "old-school" baluns were just a pair of

air wound coils.

If your balanced feed line is at least 1/4 wavelength long, the
currents will be "balanced" (equal and out of phase) at the antenna.
That assumes your antenna is perfectly balanced to provide a perfectly
balanced load, which "balanced" antennas almost never do. There are
just too many variables. So expect excellent results even with shorter
feed lines. The amount of radiation (or pickup) from the feed line
even at the rig end is small in any case.

Connect one side of the open wire feed line to the KAT100 SO-239
center pin and the other to the KAT100 ground terminal.

73, Ron AC7AC



-Original Message-
K2/100 and KAT100 here.

I am changing around my modest antenna configuration now.  I have been
using the K2/100 with my AH-4, and now wish to use the KAT100 with
balanced feedline antennas.

What balun, homebrew or commercial, if any, should I use?  I almost
always run 5 watts, all CW.

73 de W6OGC Jim Allen


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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Ignore my last - I mistakenly replied to an old email.

Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 2/9/2016 1:04 PM, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote:

Guys - please take this off reflector until you are in agreement.

73

Eric
List Moderator
/elecraft.com/

On 2/5/2016 8:15 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

Gee, Wes. It's only basic RF engineering.

If you'd care to be specific about any objection, please do so. I'll be glad
to get into details on or off the reflector.

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wes
(N7WS)
Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2016 4:18 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

I just pinched myself; I'm not dreaming and it's not April 1st, so I guess
you're serious.

You are also so wrong on so many points, I'm not going to waste time trying
to refute or correct them.

Jim, please ignore everything said below.

Wes  N7WS



On 2/4/2016 3:05 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

Your feed line will do the job by itself so no additional "balun" is

needed.

Keep in mind that a 1:1 balun is really just a length of feed line,
usually wound on a toroidal core to make the required length shorter
than if it was in open air. The "old-school" baluns were just a pair of

air wound coils.

If your balanced feed line is at least 1/4 wavelength long, the
currents will be "balanced" (equal and out of phase) at the antenna.
That assumes your antenna is perfectly balanced to provide a perfectly
balanced load, which "balanced" antennas almost never do. There are
just too many variables. So expect excellent results even with shorter
feed lines. The amount of radiation (or pickup) from the feed line
even at the rig end is small in any case.

Connect one side of the open wire feed line to the KAT100 SO-239
center pin and the other to the KAT100 ground terminal.

73, Ron AC7AC



-Original Message-
K2/100 and KAT100 here.

I am changing around my modest antenna configuration now.  I have been
using the K2/100 with my AH-4, and now wish to use the KAT100 with
balanced feedline antennas.

What balun, homebrew or commercial, if any, should I use?  I almost
always run 5 watts, all CW.

73 de W6OGC Jim Allen


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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Jim Brown]

On Fri,2/5/2016 5:06 AM, w7aqk wrote:
I don't know what the precise definition for "balanced" will end up 
being (assuming we end up with a consensus),


The laws of physics are not determined by consensus. I am citing the 
definition upon which IEC and AES Standards are based, which are 
established by international bodies of first rate engineers. I'm a 
member of the AES Standards Committee. It may come as a shock to some, 
but almost everything fundamental about electricity, electronics, audio, 
radio, and transmission lines was well understood and documented nearly 
100 years ago, and much of it decades earlier.


There's a slide presentation on RFI on my website that addresses the 
topic of balance. GM3SEK and N7WS clearly understand it.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Wes (N7WS)]

Correct on all points.

On 2/5/2016 6:06 AM, w7aqk wrote:

Jim B. and All,

I don't know what the precise definition for "balanced" will end up being 
(assuming we end up with a consensus), but In Jim B's critique about what was 
said, I think he cut and pasted so as to erroneously attribute comments made 
by Don, W3FPR, as being made by Wes N7WS.  It's getting hard to keep track of 
who said what! Hi.  Interesting debate, however.


Dave W7AQK



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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[CUTTER DAVID]

DJ0IP must be one of, if not the post prolific testers of baluns and chokes
*attached to aerials* ever.  He does not measure them in the lab.  His
measurements are practical and done with rigour using modest equipment.  He has
done thousands of measurements for common mode current, only a fraction of which
are on his website.   Some of his results are not complimentary to commercial
balun manufacturers.  Caveat emptor.  I'm glad his work is beginning to be
recognised.

David, G3UNA

> 
> On 04 February 2016 at 23:10 Bob McGraw K4TAX  wrote:
> 
> 
> As one that has personally used a balanced fed antennas for years, I
> suggest you review the info on this site.
> http://www.dj0ip.de/balun-stuff/ 
> 
> Good stuff on evaluating or building a proper balun.
> 
> And for open wire fed antennas:
> http://www.dj0ip.de/open-wire-fed-ant/
> 
> To answer your question, a high power 1:1 current balun is likely best.
> Of course you could built a balanced tuner as I did. Problem solved.
> That's another story.
> 
> Keep in mind that balun power ratings are for "matched" conditions.
> Which in fact is never the case with a center fed wire and open wire or
> a balanced feed line. At a mighty 5 watts it would not be of concern.
> 
> If at all possible, run the balanced feed line from the antenna feed
> point all the way to the operating position. Keep the coax run between
> the tuner output and balun input as short as practical. After all, the
> reason to use balanced feed line is to take advantage of the low loss
> properties.
> 
> Never fear, the use of balanced feed line is not near as critical or
> fussy as the "masses" will so tout. Many hams express fear in using
> balanced feed systems, largely because of what they have heard. Mostly
> because it frankly isn't fact. Mine feeds a 256 ft center fed wire and
> comes down the tower supported on home made 9" PVC stand-offs, through
> the attic eve vent, across the roof rafters, and drops down through the
> ceiling to the tuner on the shelf above the desk. Not bad for a 160M -
> 10M antenna. {see my pix on QRZ.COM that shows a bit of the line
> going up the wall.}
> 
> 73
> Bob, K4TAX
> 
> 
> 
> On 2/4/2016 2:55 PM, Jim Allen wrote:
> > K2/100 and KAT100 here.
> >
> > I am changing around my modest antenna configuration now. I have been
> > using the K2/100 with my AH-4, and now wish to use the KAT100 with
> > balanced feedline antennas.
> >
> > What balun, homebrew or commercial, if any, should I use? I almost
> > always run 5 watts, all CW.
> >
> > 73 de W6OGC Jim Allen
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> > __
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> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> >
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> > Message delivered to rmcg...@blomand.net
> >
> 
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> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[w7aqk]

Jim B. and All,

I don't know what the precise definition for "balanced" will end up being 
(assuming we end up with a consensus), but In Jim B's critique about what 
was said, I think he cut and pasted so as to erroneously attribute comments 
made by Don, W3FPR, as being made by Wes N7WS.  It's getting hard to keep 
track of who said what!  Hi.  Interesting debate, however.


Dave W7AQK


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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Ian White]

Wes's point is that twin feeder is not automatically "balanced" - very far
from it! Twin feeder happily supports both differential (equal and opposite,
balanced) currents and common-mode current at the same time.

So, in the real world, there is no such thing as "balanced" feedline unless
YOU actually DID something to FORCE it to be balanced. And the way to do
that is to insert a common-mode choke that enforces equal-and-opposite
currents at that particular location... though even then, it can do nothing
to prevent the regrowth of common-mode current elsewhere along the line.



73 from Ian GM3SEK



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wes
(N7WS)
Sent: 05 February 2016 00:18
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

I just pinched myself; I'm not dreaming and it's not April 1st, so I guess
you're serious.

You are also so wrong on so many points, I'm not going to waste time trying
to refute or correct them.

Jim, please ignore everything said below.

Wes  N7WS



On 2/4/2016 3:05 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> Your feed line will do the job by itself so no additional "balun" is
needed.
> Keep in mind that a 1:1 balun is really just a length of feed line, 
> usually wound on a toroidal core to make the required length shorter 
> than if it was in open air. The "old-school" baluns were just a pair of
air wound coils.
>
> If your balanced feed line is at least 1/4 wavelength long, the 
> currents will be "balanced" (equal and out of phase) at the antenna. 
> That assumes your antenna is perfectly balanced to provide a perfectly 
> balanced load, which "balanced" antennas almost never do. There are 
> just too many variables. So expect excellent results even with shorter 
> feed lines. The amount of radiation (or pickup) from the feed line 
> even at the rig end is small in any case.
>
> Connect one side of the open wire feed line to the KAT100 SO-239 
> center pin and the other to the KAT100 ground terminal.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> K2/100 and KAT100 here.
>
> I am changing around my modest antenna configuration now.  I have been 
> using the K2/100 with my AH-4, and now wish to use the KAT100 with 
> balanced feedline antennas.
>
> What balun, homebrew or commercial, if any, should I use?  I almost 
> always run 5 watts, all CW.
>
> 73 de W6OGC Jim Allen
>
>
> __
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>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email 
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> w...@triconet.org
>

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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Agreed. I thought I made that point clear. And it's not just common-mode
currents. It all depends upon the load. A "dipole" antenna, for example, is
seldom exactly the same distance from surrounding objects on each half,
which will "unbalance" the load and so unbalance the currents on the feed
line. 

As Don points out, the currents emanating from the SO-239 connector are
balanced when you consider the current flowing on the outside of the center
conductor and on the inside of the coax shield (what goes on along the
outside of the shield is a totally different situation - RF flows along the
surface of a conductor so completely different currents can appear on the
inside and outside of the shield, assuming it's a good shield.)

73, Ron AC7AC


-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ian
White
Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 2:24 AM
To: 'Wes (N7WS)'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

Wes's point is that twin feeder is not automatically "balanced" - very far
from it! Twin feeder happily supports both differential (equal and opposite,
balanced) currents and common-mode current at the same time.

So, in the real world, there is no such thing as "balanced" feedline unless
YOU actually DID something to FORCE it to be balanced. And the way to do
that is to insert a common-mode choke that enforces equal-and-opposite
currents at that particular location... though even then, it can do nothing
to prevent the regrowth of common-mode current elsewhere along the line.



73 from Ian GM3SEK



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wes
(N7WS)
Sent: 05 February 2016 00:18
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

I just pinched myself; I'm not dreaming and it's not April 1st, so I guess
you're serious.

You are also so wrong on so many points, I'm not going to waste time trying
to refute or correct them.

Jim, please ignore everything said below.

Wes  N7WS



On 2/4/2016 3:05 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> Your feed line will do the job by itself so no additional "balun" is
needed.
> Keep in mind that a 1:1 balun is really just a length of feed line, 
> usually wound on a toroidal core to make the required length shorter 
> than if it was in open air. The "old-school" baluns were just a pair 
> of
air wound coils.
>
> If your balanced feed line is at least 1/4 wavelength long, the 
> currents will be "balanced" (equal and out of phase) at the antenna.
> That assumes your antenna is perfectly balanced to provide a perfectly 
> balanced load, which "balanced" antennas almost never do. There are 
> just too many variables. So expect excellent results even with shorter 
> feed lines. The amount of radiation (or pickup) from the feed line 
> even at the rig end is small in any case.
>
> Connect one side of the open wire feed line to the KAT100 SO-239 
> center pin and the other to the KAT100 ground terminal.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> K2/100 and KAT100 here.
>
> I am changing around my modest antenna configuration now.  I have been 
> using the K2/100 with my AH-4, and now wish to use the KAT100 with 
> balanced feedline antennas.
>
> What balun, homebrew or commercial, if any, should I use?  I almost 
> always run 5 watts, all CW.
>
> 73 de W6OGC Jim Allen
>
>
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> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
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> w...@triconet.org
>

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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Maxwells' famous equations first published in the 1870's have proven to be
extraordinarily accurate for all practical engineering purposes even after
all of these years: 

http://www.aproged.pt/biblioteca/MaxwellII.pdf

73, Ron AC7AC

 

-Original Message-

It may come as a shock to some, but almost everything fundamental about
electricity, electronics, audio, radio, and transmission lines was well
understood and documented nearly
100 years ago, and much of it decades earlier...


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Gee, Wes. It's only basic RF engineering. 

If you'd care to be specific about any objection, please do so. I'll be glad
to get into details on or off the reflector. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wes
(N7WS)
Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2016 4:18 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

I just pinched myself; I'm not dreaming and it's not April 1st, so I guess
you're serious.

You are also so wrong on so many points, I'm not going to waste time trying
to refute or correct them.

Jim, please ignore everything said below.

Wes  N7WS



On 2/4/2016 3:05 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> Your feed line will do the job by itself so no additional "balun" is
needed.
> Keep in mind that a 1:1 balun is really just a length of feed line, 
> usually wound on a toroidal core to make the required length shorter 
> than if it was in open air. The "old-school" baluns were just a pair of
air wound coils.
>
> If your balanced feed line is at least 1/4 wavelength long, the 
> currents will be "balanced" (equal and out of phase) at the antenna. 
> That assumes your antenna is perfectly balanced to provide a perfectly 
> balanced load, which "balanced" antennas almost never do. There are 
> just too many variables. So expect excellent results even with shorter 
> feed lines. The amount of radiation (or pickup) from the feed line 
> even at the rig end is small in any case.
>
> Connect one side of the open wire feed line to the KAT100 SO-239 
> center pin and the other to the KAT100 ground terminal.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> K2/100 and KAT100 here.
>
> I am changing around my modest antenna configuration now.  I have been 
> using the K2/100 with my AH-4, and now wish to use the KAT100 with 
> balanced feedline antennas.
>
> What balun, homebrew or commercial, if any, should I use?  I almost 
> always run 5 watts, all CW.
>
> 73 de W6OGC Jim Allen
>
>
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to 
> w...@triconet.org
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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[David Rutledge via Elecraft]

 blockquote, div.yahoo_quoted { margin-left: 0 !important; border-left:1px 
#715FFA solid !important;  padding-left:1ex !important; background-color:white 
!important; }  Bob Rumsey, KZ5R of Balun Designs makes exceptional products & 
is always responsive if you have a question. I use several of his baluns. 
David RutledgeAL5M


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, February 4, 2016, 15:17, Walter Underwood  
wrote:

Balun Designs makes high quality baluns at fair prices.

http://www.balundesigns.com/ 

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Feb 4, 2016, at 1:11 PM, Bert Craig  wrote:
> 
> I have to firmly vouch for Balun Concepts.
> 
> Sent from my android device.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Jim Allen 
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Sent: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 15:55
> Subject: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions
> 
> K2/100 and KAT100 here.
> 
> I am changing around my modest antenna configuration now.  I have been using 
> the K2/100 with my AH-4, and now wish to use the KAT100 with balanced 
> feedline antennas.
> 
> What balun, homebrew or commercial, if any, should I use?  I almost always 
> run 5 watts, all CW.
> 
> 73 de W6OGC Jim Allen 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Bert Craig]

I have to firmly vouch for Balun Concepts.

Sent from my android device.

-Original Message-
From: Jim Allen 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 15:55
Subject: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

K2/100 and KAT100 here.

I am changing around my modest antenna configuration now.  I have been using 
the K2/100 with my AH-4, and now wish to use the KAT100 with balanced feedline 
antennas.

What balun, homebrew or commercial, if any, should I use?  I almost always run 
5 watts, all CW.

73 de W6OGC Jim Allen 

Sent from my iPad
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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Your feed line will do the job by itself so no additional "balun" is needed.
Keep in mind that a 1:1 balun is really just a length of feed line, usually
wound on a toroidal core to make the required length shorter than if it was
in open air. The "old-school" baluns were just a pair of air wound coils.

If your balanced feed line is at least 1/4 wavelength long, the currents
will be "balanced" (equal and out of phase) at the antenna. That assumes
your antenna is perfectly balanced to provide a perfectly balanced load,
which "balanced" antennas almost never do. There are just too many
variables. So expect excellent results even with shorter feed lines. The
amount of radiation (or pickup) from the feed line even at the rig end is
small in any case.

Connect one side of the open wire feed line to the KAT100 SO-239 center pin
and the other to the KAT100 ground terminal. 

73, Ron AC7AC



-Original Message-
K2/100 and KAT100 here.

I am changing around my modest antenna configuration now.  I have been using
the K2/100 with my AH-4, and now wish to use the KAT100 with balanced
feedline antennas.

What balun, homebrew or commercial, if any, should I use?  I almost always
run 5 watts, all CW.

73 de W6OGC Jim Allen 


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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Don Wilhelm]

Jim,

If your balanced feedline comes into the shack and you are running QRP, 
take a look at the Elecraft BL2.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/4/2016 3:55 PM, Jim Allen wrote:

K2/100 and KAT100 here.

I am changing around my modest antenna configuration now.  I have been using 
the K2/100 with my AH-4, and now wish to use the KAT100 with balanced feedline 
antennas.

What balun, homebrew or commercial, if any, should I use?  I almost always run 
5 watts, all CW.

73 de W6OGC Jim Allen

Sent from my iPad
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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Walter Underwood]

Balun Designs makes high quality baluns at fair prices.

http://www.balundesigns.com/ 

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Feb 4, 2016, at 1:11 PM, Bert Craig  wrote:
> 
> I have to firmly vouch for Balun Concepts.
> 
> Sent from my android device.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Jim Allen 
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Sent: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 15:55
> Subject: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions
> 
> K2/100 and KAT100 here.
> 
> I am changing around my modest antenna configuration now.  I have been using 
> the K2/100 with my AH-4, and now wish to use the KAT100 with balanced 
> feedline antennas.
> 
> What balun, homebrew or commercial, if any, should I use?  I almost always 
> run 5 watts, all CW.
> 
> 73 de W6OGC Jim Allen 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Mel Farrer via Elecraft]

Don't by-pass the Elecraft BL-2  $40  250 W 4:1 and 1:1 select able .
Mel, K6KBE

 

  From: Walter Underwood <wun...@wunderwood.org>
 To: Elecraft Reflector <elecraft@mailman.qth.net> 
 Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2016 1:17 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions
   
Balun Designs makes high quality baluns at fair prices.

http://www.balundesigns.com/ <http://www.balundesigns.com/>

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Feb 4, 2016, at 1:11 PM, Bert Craig <wa...@arrl.net> wrote:
> 
> I have to firmly vouch for Balun Concepts.
> 
> Sent from my android device.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Jim Allen <jalleninv...@gmail.com>
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Sent: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 15:55
> Subject: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions
> 
> K2/100 and KAT100 here.
> 
> I am changing around my modest antenna configuration now.  I have been using 
> the K2/100 with my AH-4, and now wish to use the KAT100 with balanced 
> feedline antennas.
> 
> What balun, homebrew or commercial, if any, should I use?  I almost always 
> run 5 watts, all CW.
> 
> 73 de W6OGC Jim Allen 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

As one that has personally used a balanced fed antennas for years, I 
suggest you review the info on this site.

 http://www.dj0ip.de/balun-stuff/ 

Good stuff on evaluating or building a proper balun.

And for open wire fed antennas:
http://www.dj0ip.de/open-wire-fed-ant/

To answer your question, a high power 1:1 current balun is likely best.  
Of course you could built a balanced tuner as I did.  Problem solved.  
That's another story.


Keep in mind that balun power ratings are for "matched" conditions. 
Which in fact is never the case with a center fed wire and open wire or 
a  balanced feed line.  At a mighty 5 watts it would not be of concern.


If at all possible, run the balanced feed line from the antenna feed 
point all the way to the operating position.  Keep the coax run between 
the tuner output and balun input as short as practical. After all, the 
reason to use balanced feed line is to take advantage of the low loss 
properties.


Never fear, the use of balanced feed line is not near as critical or 
fussy as the "masses" will so tout.  Many hams express fear in using 
balanced feed systems, largely because of what they have heard. Mostly 
because it frankly isn't fact.  Mine feeds a 256 ft center fed wire and 
comes down the tower supported on home made 9" PVC stand-offs, through 
the attic eve vent, across the roof rafters, and drops down through the 
ceiling to the tuner on the shelf above the desk.  Not bad for a 160M - 
10M antenna.{see my pix on QRZ.COM that shows a bit of the line 
going up the wall.}


73
Bob, K4TAX



On 2/4/2016 2:55 PM, Jim Allen wrote:

K2/100 and KAT100 here.

I am changing around my modest antenna configuration now.  I have been using 
the K2/100 with my AH-4, and now wish to use the KAT100 with balanced feedline 
antennas.

What balun, homebrew or commercial, if any, should I use?  I almost always run 
5 watts, all CW.

73 de W6OGC Jim Allen

Sent from my iPad
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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Jim Brown]

On Thu,2/4/2016 5:35 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
Even though we often refer to the output of the KAT500 (or any other 
device that normally connects to a coaxial line, the currents on the 
output should be equal and opposite - which is the definition of 
balanced.


Sorry, that is NOT the definition of "balance." Balance is defined by 
equal potential to the reference plane, which for most land-based 
antennas is either the earth or the chassis of the transmitter that 
feeds it, which is usually ground referenced.


Consider the currents between the center conductor and the inside of 
the shield for coax.  They must be equal and opposite.  It is the 
common mode current on the outside of the feedline that produces any 
unbalance. 


No, the common mode current is the RESULT of imbalance. AND -- common 
mode current is present in two-wire feedlines when the antenna or the 
transmitter is unbalanced.  In those 2-wire feedlines, common mode 
current is the DIFFERENCE between the current in the two conductors.


Note also that feedlines have wavelength, and both voltage and current 
vary along the line. The DIFFERENTIAL voltage and current vary as a 
function of the behavior of the line as a transmission line, with Vf 
being that of the line. The COMMON MODE voltage and current vary along 
the line as a function of the line's behavior as an ANTENNA, where Vf is 
determined by the insulation on the outer conductor(s), so  is 0.98 - 0.99.


I laugh at those who attempt to measure current in both sides of a 
2-wire line and think that what they have measured is the current at 
every point on the line. It is not -- it's only the current at the point 
you measured it, and it's only right there if your measurement technique 
is without error. Which ain't easy.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Vic Rosenthal 4X6GP/K2VCO]

Jim,

You might find that on some bands your antenna tunes better with a 1:1 
balun and on others with a 4:1. Therefore, I recommend the Elecraft 
balun, which is switchable. It's rated at 250w so it should be adequate.


73,
Vic, 4X6GP/K2VCO
Rehovot, Israel
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

On 4 Feb 2016 22:55, Jim Allen wrote:

K2/100 and KAT100 here.

I am changing around my modest antenna configuration now.  I have
been using the K2/100 with my AH-4, and now wish to use the KAT100
with balanced feedline antennas.

What balun, homebrew or commercial, if any, should I use?  I almost
always run 5 watts, all CW.

73 de W6OGC Jim Allen

Sent from my iPad

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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Wes (N7WS)]

I was wrong.  Clearly, I'm dreaming.

On 2/4/2016 5:38 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Wes,

I don't mean to be contentious, but under ideal conditions, what Ron said is 
true.  Even though we often refer to the output of the KAT500 (or any other 
device that normally connects to a coaxial line, the currents on the output 
should be equal and opposite - which is the definition of balanced.
Consider the currents between the center conductor and the inside of the 
shield for coax.  They must be equal and opposite.  It is the common mode 
current on the outside of the feedline that produces any unbalance.


So connecting a balanced feedline to a PL-259 is not so far fetched - 
providing the shell of the PL-259 (and enclosure of the KAT500) is not 
grounded.  If you have decided to ground your KAT500, then you would need to 
use a balun - so "it all depends". Be aware of "sneak grounds".


73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/4/2016 7:17 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
I just pinched myself; I'm not dreaming and it's not April 1st, so I guess 
you're serious.


You are also so wrong on so many points, I'm not going to waste time trying 
to refute or correct them.


Jim, please ignore everything said below.

Wes  N7WS



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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Don Wilhelm]

Wes,

I don't mean to be contentious, but under ideal conditions, what Ron 
said is true.  Even though we often refer to the output of the KAT500 
(or any other device that normally connects to a coaxial line, the 
currents on the output should be equal and opposite - which is the 
definition of balanced.
Consider the currents between the center conductor and the inside of the 
shield for coax.  They must be equal and opposite.  It is the common 
mode current on the outside of the feedline that produces any unbalance.


So connecting a balanced feedline to a PL-259 is not so far fetched - 
providing the shell of the PL-259 (and enclosure of the KAT500) is not 
grounded.  If you have decided to ground your KAT500, then you would 
need to use a balun - so "it all depends".  Be aware of "sneak grounds".


73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/4/2016 7:17 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
I just pinched myself; I'm not dreaming and it's not April 1st, so I 
guess you're serious.


You are also so wrong on so many points, I'm not going to waste time 
trying to refute or correct them.


Jim, please ignore everything said below.

Wes  N7WS



On 2/4/2016 3:05 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
Your feed line will do the job by itself so no additional "balun" is 
needed.
Keep in mind that a 1:1 balun is really just a length of feed line, 
usually
wound on a toroidal core to make the required length shorter than if 
it was
in open air. The "old-school" baluns were just a pair of air wound 
coils.


If your balanced feed line is at least 1/4 wavelength long, the currents
will be "balanced" (equal and out of phase) at the antenna. That assumes
your antenna is perfectly balanced to provide a perfectly balanced load,
which "balanced" antennas almost never do. There are just too many
variables. So expect excellent results even with shorter feed lines. The
amount of radiation (or pickup) from the feed line even at the rig 
end is

small in any case.

Connect one side of the open wire feed line to the KAT100 SO-239 
center pin

and the other to the KAT100 ground terminal.

73, Ron AC7AC



-Original Message-
K2/100 and KAT100 here.

I am changing around my modest antenna configuration now.  I have 
been using

the K2/100 with my AH-4, and now wish to use the KAT100 with balanced
feedline antennas.

What balun, homebrew or commercial, if any, should I use?  I almost 
always

run 5 watts, all CW.

73 de W6OGC Jim Allen


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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Jim Brown]

On Thu,2/4/2016 12:55 PM, Jim Allen wrote:

What balun, homebrew or commercial, if any, should I use?  I almost always run 
5 watts, all CW.


k9yc.com/RFI-Ham.pdf  Since you're running QRP, a single 2.4-in o.d. #31 
core is all you need. Study the data in Appendix One for small diameter 
wire, and wind the number of turns of your coax through it that puts the 
impedance peak in the frequency range where you want to operate.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Jim Miller]

I suggest reading work by w9cf before getting concerned about balancing tuners. 

http://fermi.la.asu.edu/w9cf/articles/balun/index.html

On Feb 4, 2016, at 7:38 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:

Wes,

I don't mean to be contentious, but under ideal conditions, what Ron said is 
true.  Even though we often refer to the output of the KAT500 (or any other 
device that normally connects to a coaxial line, the currents on the output 
should be equal and opposite - which is the definition of balanced.
Consider the currents between the center conductor and the inside of the shield 
for coax.  They must be equal and opposite.  It is the common mode current on 
the outside of the feedline that produces any unbalance.

So connecting a balanced feedline to a PL-259 is not so far fetched - providing 
the shell of the PL-259 (and enclosure of the KAT500) is not grounded.  If you 
have decided to ground your KAT500, then you would need to use a balun - so "it 
all depends".  Be aware of "sneak grounds".

73,
Don W3FPR

> On 2/4/2016 7:17 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
> I just pinched myself; I'm not dreaming and it's not April 1st, so I guess 
> you're serious.
> 
> You are also so wrong on so many points, I'm not going to waste time trying 
> to refute or correct them.
> 
> Jim, please ignore everything said below.
> 
> Wes  N7WS
> 
> 
> 
>> On 2/4/2016 3:05 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>> Your feed line will do the job by itself so no additional "balun" is needed.
>> Keep in mind that a 1:1 balun is really just a length of feed line, usually
>> wound on a toroidal core to make the required length shorter than if it was
>> in open air. The "old-school" baluns were just a pair of air wound coils.
>> 
>> If your balanced feed line is at least 1/4 wavelength long, the currents
>> will be "balanced" (equal and out of phase) at the antenna. That assumes
>> your antenna is perfectly balanced to provide a perfectly balanced load,
>> which "balanced" antennas almost never do. There are just too many
>> variables. So expect excellent results even with shorter feed lines. The
>> amount of radiation (or pickup) from the feed line even at the rig end is
>> small in any case.
>> 
>> Connect one side of the open wire feed line to the KAT100 SO-239 center pin
>> and the other to the KAT100 ground terminal.
>> 
>> 73, Ron AC7AC
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> K2/100 and KAT100 here.
>> 
>> I am changing around my modest antenna configuration now.  I have been using
>> the K2/100 with my AH-4, and now wish to use the KAT100 with balanced
>> feedline antennas.
>> 
>> What balun, homebrew or commercial, if any, should I use?  I almost always
>> run 5 watts, all CW.
>> 
>> 73 de W6OGC Jim Allen
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Wes (N7WS)]

I just pinched myself; I'm not dreaming and it's not April 1st, so I guess 
you're serious.


You are also so wrong on so many points, I'm not going to waste time trying to 
refute or correct them.


Jim, please ignore everything said below.

Wes  N7WS



On 2/4/2016 3:05 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

Your feed line will do the job by itself so no additional "balun" is needed.
Keep in mind that a 1:1 balun is really just a length of feed line, usually
wound on a toroidal core to make the required length shorter than if it was
in open air. The "old-school" baluns were just a pair of air wound coils.

If your balanced feed line is at least 1/4 wavelength long, the currents
will be "balanced" (equal and out of phase) at the antenna. That assumes
your antenna is perfectly balanced to provide a perfectly balanced load,
which "balanced" antennas almost never do. There are just too many
variables. So expect excellent results even with shorter feed lines. The
amount of radiation (or pickup) from the feed line even at the rig end is
small in any case.

Connect one side of the open wire feed line to the KAT100 SO-239 center pin
and the other to the KAT100 ground terminal.

73, Ron AC7AC



-Original Message-
K2/100 and KAT100 here.

I am changing around my modest antenna configuration now.  I have been using
the K2/100 with my AH-4, and now wish to use the KAT100 with balanced
feedline antennas.

What balun, homebrew or commercial, if any, should I use?  I almost always
run 5 watts, all CW.

73 de W6OGC Jim Allen


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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Jim Brown]

On Thu,2/4/2016 12:55 PM, Jim Allen wrote:

I am changing around my modest antenna configuration now.  I have been using 
the K2/100 with my AH-4, and now wish to use the KAT100 with balanced feedline 
antennas.

What balun, homebrew or commercial, if any, should I use?  I almost always run 
5 watts, all CW


You didn't say what your antenna is or what bands you want to work. 
Antennas, feedlines, and tuners are a SYSTEM, and must be considered as 
a system. Why do you want to use "balanced" line? Has someone told you 
it's lower loss, and you can use any random wire (or some "magic" length 
of wire on all bands?


Are you trying to use a non-resonant antenna on multiple bands? If so, 
why? Is that the only sort of antenna you can hang? There are serious 
issues with this sort of antenna. First, there can be significant 
feedline losses. Second, these antennas are nearly impossible to choke 
to kill common mode noise, so they can be noisy. Off-center-fed antennas 
are unbalanced by their nature, so they're inherently noisy. Even a 
center-fed antenna will be unbalanced by its surroundings -- sloping 
ground, variable height, proximity to other conductors on one end but 
not the other, etc.


Take a look at the antenna planning tutorials on my website. All of the 
options shown there are superior to most "all-band" wires.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Don Wilhelm]

Wes and all,

Yes, that is one source of "sneak ground".  A balun will cure that 
condition.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/4/2016 11:48 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
You mean like that "sneak ground" from the input of the tuner back to 
the grounded amp or exciter?  Or are they floating too?


On 2/4/2016 5:38 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:


So connecting a balanced feedline to a PL-259 is not so far fetched - 
providing the shell of the PL-259 (and enclosure of the KAT500) is 
not grounded.  If you have decided to ground your KAT500, then you 
would need to use a balun - so "it all depends". Be aware of "sneak 
grounds".




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Re: [Elecraft] Balun suggestions

[Wes (N7WS)]

You mean like that "sneak ground" from the input of the tuner back to the 
grounded amp or exciter?  Or are they floating too?


On 2/4/2016 5:38 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:


So connecting a balanced feedline to a PL-259 is not so far fetched - 
providing the shell of the PL-259 (and enclosure of the KAT500) is not 
grounded.  If you have decided to ground your KAT500, then you would need to 
use a balun - so "it all depends". Be aware of "sneak grounds".


73,
Don W3FPR



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