Re: [Elecraft] Weird K-3 Power Behavior

2024-04-06 Thread Pete Smith N4ZR 
Give me a break, Joe. I told you why I didn't give his call - I'm fairly 
sure that he reads this reflector, and he will comment if he wants to.  
End of subject


73, Pete N4ZR

On 4/6/2024 6:00 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


No, it's not "snarky".  It points out that a claim can not
be verified absent supporting documentation - just like any
scientific study that has not been subject to peer review is
generally not given serious weight.  This is particularly the
case when the claim runs contrary to not only the designer's
and manufacturer's recommendation but also the experience of
many other experienced audio and RF engineers.

Your anecdotal claim sounds very much like the test procedure
is over driving the first audio stage before any gain control
(too much audio drive, reduced mic/line gain setting).  However,
since the lone "report" can not be peer reviewed it is impossible
to give it any credence.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV

On 4/6/2024 4:56 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
That's kinda snarky, Joe.  I didn't identify him precisely because if 
he wants to expose himself on this reflector (of which he is a 
member, I believe) he should be the one to do so.  I know him to be a 
retired professional electronic engineer with a well-equipped 
workbench whose analyses seemed credible to me (who is none of those 
hi).


73, Pete N4ZR

On 4/6/2024 4:47 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

Since your repeated claims do not identify the technician or provide
any documentation of the procedure and results, the claim can not
be validated. 

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Re: [Elecraft] Weird K-3 Power Behavior

2024-04-06 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV 


No, it's not "snarky".  It points out that a claim can not
be verified absent supporting documentation - just like any
scientific study that has not been subject to peer review is
generally not given serious weight.  This is particularly the
case when the claim runs contrary to not only the designer's
and manufacturer's recommendation but also the experience of
many other experienced audio and RF engineers.

Your anecdotal claim sounds very much like the test procedure
is over driving the first audio stage before any gain control
(too much audio drive, reduced mic/line gain setting).  However,
since the lone "report" can not be peer reviewed it is impossible
to give it any credence.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV

On 4/6/2024 4:56 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
That's kinda snarky, Joe.  I didn't identify him precisely because if he 
wants to expose himself on this reflector (of which he is a member, I 
believe) he should be the one to do so.  I know him to be a retired 
professional electronic engineer with a well-equipped workbench whose 
analyses seemed credible to me (who is none of those hi).


73, Pete N4ZR

On 4/6/2024 4:47 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

Since your repeated claims do not identify the technician or provide
any documentation of the procedure and results, the claim can not
be validated. 

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[Elecraft] Weird K-3 Power Behavior

2024-04-06 Thread Bob McGraw 
Just to be clear on the point.  The correct audio level should produce 4 
bars indicated on the ALC Scale.  Actual ALC action does not start until 
after the 5th bar.


Yes, after any power adjustment, the audio system does start at lower 
gain, quickly ramping to the desired level.  This is done to prevent any 
potential power overshoot.  After the initial transmission at the new 
power setting, the remainder of transmissions are at the proper power 
level setting.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 4/5/2024 5:50 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2024 21:03:20 -0400
From: Pete Smith N4ZR
To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Weird K-3 Power Behavior
Message-ID:<59c02b5d-1800-4a78-9d73-60461d231...@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

I just set the audio to be sure I'm? hitting 4 bars of ALC,and the cycle
of adjust K-3 power to full expected drive to the KPA-1500 is now more
like CW, but the question remains -? after I adjust the power a tiny
fraction in either direction, why does the K-3's output power drop way
back and relatively slowly recover?

73, Pete N4ZR

--
"You only grow old when you run out of new things to do"
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Re: [Elecraft] Weird K-3 Power Behavior

2024-04-06 Thread Rick NK7I 

Correct.

73,
Rick nk7i


On 4/6/2024 12:03 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
Hmmm ... I thought that the ALC started AT the 5th bar and the first 4 
bars were sort of a VU-meter.  Hence Don's occasional advice, "4 full 
bars and the 5th occasionally flickering." I've been known to get 
things wrong in the past however.


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

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Re: [Elecraft] Weird K-3 Power Behavior

2024-04-06 Thread W3FPR 
According to the DSP software engineer (Lyle Johnson) ALC begins at the 
5th bar, and with the 5th bsr flickering shows no ALC action - 5th on 
solid, it does show some ALC.


To keep the audio drive for digital modes correct set so the 5th bar 
just flickers.  Less than that the audio drive will ramp up and produce 
"power hunting" at the output.  More than that, you will go into 
distortion (ALC Compression) which will not produce the cleanest signal.


The Fred Cady books also agree on that.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/6/2024 3:03 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
Hmmm ... I thought that the ALC started AT the 5th bar and the first 4 
bars were sort of a VU-meter.  Hence Don's occasional advice, "4 full 
bars and the 5th occasionally flickering." I've been known to get 
things wrong in the past however.


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

Bob McGraw wrote on 4/6/2024 8:50 AM:
Just to be clear on the point.  The correct audio level should 
produce 4 bars indicated on the ALC Scale.  Actual ALC action does 
not start until after the 5th bar.


Yes, after any power adjustment, the audio system does start at lower 
gain, quickly ramping to the desired level.  This is done to prevent 
any potential power overshoot.  After the initial transmission at the 
new power setting, the remainder of transmissions are at the proper 
power level setting.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 4/5/2024 5:50 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2024 21:03:20 -0400
From: Pete Smith N4ZR
To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Weird K-3 Power Behavior
Message-ID:<59c02b5d-1800-4a78-9d73-60461d231...@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

I just set the audio to be sure I'm? hitting 4 bars of ALC,and the 
cycle

of adjust K-3 power to full expected drive to the KPA-1500 is now more
like CW, but the question remains -? after I adjust the power a tiny
fraction in either direction, why does the K-3's output power drop way
back and relatively slowly recover?

73, Pete N4ZR






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Re: [Elecraft] Weird K-3 Power Behavior

2024-04-06 Thread Bob McGraw 

Fred et al:

Based on Don's information, 4 bars on solid, 5th bar flickering, 6th bar 
is beginning of ALC.    Also I seem to recall an exchange of information 
with a member of the  Elecraft staff that confirmed the beginning of ALC 
at the 6th bar.


I think this is getting into a hair splitting issue.

73

Bob, K4TAX


On 4/6/2024 2:03 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
Hmmm ... I thought that the ALC started AT the 5th bar and the first 4 
bars were sort of a VU-meter.  Hence Don's occasional advice, "4 full 
bars and the 5th occasionally flickering."  I've been known to get 
things wrong in the past however.


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

Bob McGraw wrote on 4/6/2024 8:50 AM:
Just to be clear on the point.  The correct audio level should 
produce 4 bars indicated on the ALC Scale.  Actual ALC action does 
not start until after the 5th bar.


Yes, after any power adjustment, the audio system does start at lower 
gain, quickly ramping to the desired level.  This is done to prevent 
any potential power overshoot.  After the initial transmission at the 
new power setting, the remainder of transmissions are at the proper 
power level setting.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 4/5/2024 5:50 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2024 21:03:20 -0400
From: Pete Smith N4ZR
To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Weird K-3 Power Behavior
Message-ID:<59c02b5d-1800-4a78-9d73-60461d231...@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

I just set the audio to be sure I'm? hitting 4 bars of ALC,and the 
cycle

of adjust K-3 power to full expected drive to the KPA-1500 is now more
like CW, but the question remains -? after I adjust the power a tiny
fraction in either direction, why does the K-3's output power drop way
back and relatively slowly recover?

73, Pete N4ZR



 
	Virus-free.www.avg.com 
 



<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

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Re: [Elecraft] Weird K-3 Power Behavior

2024-04-06 Thread Pete Smith N4ZR 
Yes - although there have also been some analysis done that seems to 
show that, in FT8,  with any ALC bars visible, signals begin to widen 
out, and at 4 bars there is a lot of junk between signals.  Just 
repeating what I've been told -  I don't have the ability to check this 
myself.


I was running FT8 just below 1 bar, and found the driving power to my 
amp took 7 or 8 transmit periods to get to full power each time I 
adjusted my power, even by a tenth of a watt.  I'm now running 3 bars 
(third flickering) and power-up behavior is much better.


73, Pete N4ZR

On 4/6/2024 3:33 PM, W3FPR wrote:
According to the DSP software engineer (Lyle Johnson) ALC begins at 
the 5th bar, and with the 5th bsr flickering shows no ALC action - 5th 
on solid, it does show some ALC.


To keep the audio drive for digital modes correct set so the 5th bar 
just flickers.  Less than that the audio drive will ramp up and 
produce "power hunting" at the output.  More than that, you will go 
into distortion (ALC Compression) which will not produce the cleanest 
signal.


The Fred Cady books also agree on that.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/6/2024 3:03 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
Hmmm ... I thought that the ALC started AT the 5th bar and the first 
4 bars were sort of a VU-meter.  Hence Don's occasional advice, "4 
full bars and the 5th occasionally flickering." I've been known to 
get things wrong in the past however.


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

Bob McGraw wrote on 4/6/2024 8:50 AM:
Just to be clear on the point.  The correct audio level should 
produce 4 bars indicated on the ALC Scale.  Actual ALC action does 
not start until after the 5th bar.


Yes, after any power adjustment, the audio system does start at 
lower gain, quickly ramping to the desired level.  This is done to 
prevent any potential power overshoot.  After the initial 
transmission at the new power setting, the remainder of 
transmissions are at the proper power level setting.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 4/5/2024 5:50 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2024 21:03:20 -0400
From: Pete Smith N4ZR
To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Weird K-3 Power Behavior
Message-ID:<59c02b5d-1800-4a78-9d73-60461d231...@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

I just set the audio to be sure I'm? hitting 4 bars of ALC,and the 
cycle

of adjust K-3 power to full expected drive to the KPA-1500 is now more
like CW, but the question remains -? after I adjust the power a tiny
fraction in either direction, why does the K-3's output power drop way
back and relatively slowly recover?

73, Pete N4ZR






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Re: [Elecraft] Weird K-3 Power Behavior

2024-04-06 Thread W3FPR 

Bob,
5th bar flickering is no ALC, but 5th bar solid indicates ALC action.
ALC starts at 5th bar solid.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/6/2024 3:41 PM, Bob McGraw wrote:

Fred et al:

Based on Don's information, 4 bars on solid, 5th bar flickering, 6th 
bar is beginning of ALC.    Also I seem to recall an exchange of 
information with a member of the  Elecraft staff that confirmed the 
beginning of ALC at the 6th bar.


I think this is getting into a hair splitting issue.

73

Bob, K4TAX


On 4/6/2024 2:03 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
Hmmm ... I thought that the ALC started AT the 5th bar and the first 
4 bars were sort of a VU-meter.  Hence Don's occasional advice, "4 
full bars and the 5th occasionally flickering."  I've been known to 
get things wrong in the past however.


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

Bob McGraw wrote on 4/6/2024 8:50 AM:
Just to be clear on the point.  The correct audio level should 
produce 4 bars indicated on the ALC Scale.  Actual ALC action does 
not start until after the 5th bar.


Yes, after any power adjustment, the audio system does start at 
lower gain, quickly ramping to the desired level.  This is done to 
prevent any potential power overshoot.  After the initial 
transmission at the new power setting, the remainder of 
transmissions are at the proper power level setting.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 4/5/2024 5:50 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2024 21:03:20 -0400
From: Pete Smith N4ZR
To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Weird K-3 Power Behavior
Message-ID:<59c02b5d-1800-4a78-9d73-60461d231...@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

I just set the audio to be sure I'm? hitting 4 bars of ALC,and the 
cycle

of adjust K-3 power to full expected drive to the KPA-1500 is now more
like CW, but the question remains -? after I adjust the power a tiny
fraction in either direction, why does the K-3's output power drop way
back and relatively slowly recover?

73, Pete N4ZR



 
Virus-free.www.avg.com 
 



<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>


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Re: [Elecraft] Weird K-3 Power Behavior

2024-04-06 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV 


On 4/6/2024 3:58 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
Yes - although there have also been some analysis done that seems to 
show that, in FT8,  with any ALC bars visible, signals begin to

widen out, and at 4 bars there is a lot of junk between signals.
Just repeating what I've been told -  I don't have the ability to
check this myself.

Given the way the K3 audio/ALP/Power system operates, the information
you have been given is highly questionable.  Either the test equipment
was not operating correctly, the test procedure was flawed or the
particular K3/K3s being tested was not operating correctly.

Since your repeated claims do not identify the technician or provide
any documentation of the procedure and results, the claim can not
be validated.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV

On 4/6/2024 3:58 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
Yes - although there have also been some analysis done that seems to 
show that, in FT8,  with any ALC bars visible, signals begin to widen 
out, and at 4 bars there is a lot of junk between signals.  Just 
repeating what I've been told -  I don't have the ability to check this 
myself.


I was running FT8 just below 1 bar, and found the driving power to my 
amp took 7 or 8 transmit periods to get to full power each time I 
adjusted my power, even by a tenth of a watt.  I'm now running 3 bars 
(third flickering) and power-up behavior is much better.


73, Pete N4ZR




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Re: [Elecraft] Weird K-3 Power Behavior

2024-04-06 Thread Pete Smith N4ZR 
That's kinda snarky, Joe.  I didn't identify him precisely because if he 
wants to expose himself on this reflector (of which he is a member, I 
believe) he should be the one to do so.  I know him to be a retired 
professional electronic engineer with a well-equipped workbench whose 
analyses seemed credible to me (who is none of those hi).


73, Pete N4ZR

On 4/6/2024 4:47 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

Since your repeated claims do not identify the technician or provide
any documentation of the procedure and results, the claim can not
be validated. 

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Re: [Elecraft] Weird K-3 Power Behavior

2024-04-06 Thread Fred Jensen 
Hmmm ... I thought that the ALC started AT the 5th bar and the first 4 
bars were sort of a VU-meter.  Hence Don's occasional advice, "4 full 
bars and the 5th occasionally flickering." I've been known to get things 
wrong in the past however.


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

Bob McGraw wrote on 4/6/2024 8:50 AM:
Just to be clear on the point.  The correct audio level should produce 
4 bars indicated on the ALC Scale.  Actual ALC action does not start 
until after the 5th bar.


Yes, after any power adjustment, the audio system does start at lower 
gain, quickly ramping to the desired level.  This is done to prevent 
any potential power overshoot.  After the initial transmission at the 
new power setting, the remainder of transmissions are at the proper 
power level setting.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 4/5/2024 5:50 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2024 21:03:20 -0400
From: Pete Smith N4ZR
To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Weird K-3 Power Behavior
Message-ID:<59c02b5d-1800-4a78-9d73-60461d231...@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

I just set the audio to be sure I'm? hitting 4 bars of ALC,and the cycle
of adjust K-3 power to full expected drive to the KPA-1500 is now more
like CW, but the question remains -? after I adjust the power a tiny
fraction in either direction, why does the K-3's output power drop way
back and relatively slowly recover?

73, Pete N4ZR




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