[EM] Purpose of Declaration of Election-Method Experts and Enthusiasts
Fred Gohlke wrote: I think it's important for people proposing Electoral Methods to know (and agree upon) the prize they seek - and not lose sight of it. I fear I've failed to make that point. I have no problem with the 'Declaration'. I simply fear the purpose of reforming electoral methods is lost in the verbiage engulfing the reforms. ... Richard Fobes wrote: I don't know what that [last] sentence means. Fred is saying that the declaration does not state its purpose in terms of an ultimate goal, one that the non-expert reader might relate to and orient by. He was wondering if you think the goal is too lofty, as some think Heaven is. He quoted Bunyan: John Bunyan. The heavenly footman; or, a description of the man that gets to Heaven; together with the way he runs in, the marks he goes by; also, some directions how to run so as to obtain. 1698. The declaration speaks only of the technical means of electoral reform, the way, marks and directions. Fred is saying that the reader cannot see through this technical language to the unwritten goal, which is therefore lost to sight. Where the end is obscure, it is hard to judge the means and know that each step recommended ... is a move toward greater democracy. -- Michael Allan Toronto, +1 416-699-9528 http://zelea.com/ Richard Fobes wrote: On 9/4/2011 1:26 PM, Fred Gohlke wrote: ... I'd like to know that each step recommended on the Electoral Methods site is a move toward greater democracy, but I'm not sure others agree. There seems to be greater interest in solidifying the role of political parties in the electoral infrastructure than in improving public participation in the political process. ... The Declaration loosens, rather than tightens, the grip that political parties now have on politics. Completely releasing that grip comes later. (One step at a time...) I agree that aspiring to lofty goals is, for lack of a better way to say it, a good goal. It's what I've always tried to do. As for promoting direct public participation in the political process, first we have to develop election-method tools that support such participation. I've done a prototype of an early kind of such a tool at www.NegotiationTool.com, although first the approach needs to be learned in smaller groups before it can be scaled up to reach the long-term goal of direct, citizen-based participation in government. Surely that's a lofty goal. ... I simply fear the purpose of reforming electoral methods is lost in the verbiage engulfing the reforms. ... I don't know what that sentence means. ... However much I'd like to see movement toward more democratic electoral systems, I recognize that progress must be slow and incremental. ... I disagree. We don't have to move slowly. And the Declaration will dramatically speed up movement toward more democratic electoral systems. Speeding things up is what will enable us to sooner reach our shared lofty goal of eventual direct-participation democracy -- without the currently necessary evil of political parties. We agree that we need to take one step at a time, yet I see no reason that we have to take those steps sssooo ssslllooowwwlllyyy. This is the year 2011 and we're still using plurality voting in U.S. elections? Richard Fobes On 9/4/2011 1:26 PM, Fred Gohlke wrote: Good Afternoon, Richard I absolutely agree - we must crawl before we can walk. However, since we are not babies, perhaps our position is more analogous to wriggling out of a cesspool. To do that, it's best to have an idea of where we want to go so we don't flounder around in it longer than necessary. In thinking about how to respond to your note, I kept coming back to a thought that seemed important, so I looked it up: Keep thine eye upon the prize; be sure that thy eyes be continually upon the profit thou art like to get. The reason why men are so apt to faint in their race for heaven, it lieth chiefly in either of these two things: 1. They do not seriously consider the worth of the prize; or else if they do, they are afraid it is too good for them; ... 2. And do not let the thoughts of the rareness of the place make thee say in thy heart, This is too good for me; ... John Bunyan, 1698 I was surprised to learn this thought's religious overtones (I would have guessed John Bunyan was Paul Bunyan's dad), so I must beg the indulgence of those whose minds close at the first hint of religiosity. The quality of an idea should be independent of its source. I must have thought this one worthy, for I kept it in the back of my mind long after I lost my awe of religion. I think it's important for people proposing Electoral Methods to know (and agree upon) the prize they seek - and not lose sight of it. I fear I've failed to make that point. I have no problem with the 'Declaration'. I simply fear
Re: [EM] Purpose of Declaration of Election-Method Experts and Enthusiasts
Trying again as to what we are doing: There can be democratic need in an election effort to make a decision. Selecting a collection of voters and a collection of candidates to do this is a complex task and important, but not part of this effort. We are debating among: . Plurality - which we want to dispose of for inadequacy. . IRV - pleases some, but many want to discard for failures we have seen. . Approval - most agree that it is a slight improvement, and most would rather do better. . Condorcet/score/etc - most agree that moving to one of these is worth it, and debate which is best. Most of us agree that this is a worthy Election Method effort. Fred wants something more, which he calls an Electoral Methods effort. I agree there is plenty of work to do as to such as voters selecting candidates, but making our effort much bigger could make it fail from overweight. Dave Ketchum On Sep 5, 2011, at 6:53 AM, Michael Allan wrote: Fred Gohlke wrote: I think it's important for people proposing Electoral Methods to know (and agree upon) the prize they seek - and not lose sight of it. I fear I've failed to make that point. I have no problem with the 'Declaration'. I simply fear the purpose of reforming electoral methods is lost in the verbiage engulfing the reforms. ... Richard Fobes wrote: I don't know what that [last] sentence means. Fred is saying that the declaration does not state its purpose in terms of an ultimate goal, one that the non-expert reader might relate to and orient by. He was wondering if you think the goal is too lofty, as some think Heaven is. He quoted Bunyan: John Bunyan. The heavenly footman; or, a description of the man that gets to Heaven; together with the way he runs in, the marks he goes by; also, some directions how to run so as to obtain. 1698. The declaration speaks only of the technical means of electoral reform, the way, marks and directions. Fred is saying that the reader cannot see through this technical language to the unwritten goal, which is therefore lost to sight. Where the end is obscure, it is hard to judge the means and know that each step recommended ... is a move toward greater democracy. -- Michael Allan Toronto, +1 416-699-9528 http://zelea.com/ Richard Fobes wrote: On 9/4/2011 1:26 PM, Fred Gohlke wrote: ... I'd like to know that each step recommended on the Electoral Methods site is a move toward greater democracy, but I'm not sure others agree. There seems to be greater interest in solidifying the role of political parties in the electoral infrastructure than in improving public participation in the political process. ... The Declaration loosens, rather than tightens, the grip that political parties now have on politics. Completely releasing that grip comes later. (One step at a time...) I agree that aspiring to lofty goals is, for lack of a better way to say it, a good goal. It's what I've always tried to do. As for promoting direct public participation in the political process, first we have to develop election-method tools that support such participation. I've done a prototype of an early kind of such a tool at www.NegotiationTool.com, although first the approach needs to be learned in smaller groups before it can be scaled up to reach the long-term goal of direct, citizen-based participation in government. Surely that's a lofty goal. ... I simply fear the purpose of reforming electoral methods is lost in the verbiage engulfing the reforms. ... I don't know what that sentence means. ... However much I'd like to see movement toward more democratic electoral systems, I recognize that progress must be slow and incremental. ... I disagree. We don't have to move slowly. And the Declaration will dramatically speed up movement toward more democratic electoral systems. Speeding things up is what will enable us to sooner reach our shared lofty goal of eventual direct-participation democracy -- without the currently necessary evil of political parties. We agree that we need to take one step at a time, yet I see no reason that we have to take those steps sssooo ssslllooowwwlllyyy. This is the year 2011 and we're still using plurality voting in U.S. elections? Richard Fobes On 9/4/2011 1:26 PM, Fred Gohlke wrote: Good Afternoon, Richard I absolutely agree - we must crawl before we can walk. However, since we are not babies, perhaps our position is more analogous to wriggling out of a cesspool. To do that, it's best to have an idea of where we want to go so we don't flounder around in it longer than necessary. In thinking about how to respond to your note, I kept coming back to a thought that seemed important, so I looked it up: Keep thine eye upon the prize; be sure that thy eyes be continually upon the profit thou art like to get. The reason why men are so apt to faint in their race for heaven, it lieth chiefly in either of these
