Re: [EM] SodaHead online Approval Voting poll
On 03/20/2012 01:51 PM, Jameson Quinn wrote: I know that online polls are silly. But thousands of people see them, and if they see that the idea actually has support, some of them will be more open to consider if it has merit. While the poll has comments of low quality, and the users seem to be against Approval at the moment, I do think even those low-quality comments can be useful. Namely, they give us insight into the objections, fair or not, to Approval itself. There are partisan arguments (this is a liberal plot to deny conservatives their voting power), what can be done about them? Can we point out places where conservatives are being hurt by vote-splitting? Can we point at Ron Paul when responding to a libertarian? Then there are method centric arguments. Some are just confused about what the thing means, as one can see by the oh, and let the voters vote for a single candidate many times type of posts. Others think it violates one-man one-vote. How can we clear that up? Perhaps by rephrasing it in terms of thumbs-up/thumbs-down? If each voter gets ten options to either do thumbs-up (approve) or not (don't approve), then the voting power is the same for each. Maybe that is a better phrasing than approve/not in any case, and maybe it's a better format, too, because it clears up the confusion between haven't made a choice about X (no approval) and have voted, but didn't like X (also no approval). And so on... The demographics, if representative, may also give some idea as to where it will be hard to sell. What kinds of people like Approval the least? Why? I do note that there are very few arguments about chicken dilemma situations. If there are barriers to Approval being adopted, that isn't it - at least not yet. Though one could of course say that the reason nobody objects using the chicken dilemma is that they haven't studied the thing enough to know there actually *is* a chicken dilemma problem. Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
Re: [EM] SodaHead online Approval Voting poll
What strikes me most about the comments is how many of them are positively proud of their loudmouth know-nothingism. The same people who think it's a liberal plot seem to enjoy showing off their closed-mindedness. That is, they see it not as a rational argument, but as a tribal counting-coup on those egghead liberals. Finding better rational arguments is not going to change such people's minds. I'm not really sure what would. It seems that they make up their minds pretty quickly and reflexively. Now I know that such blowhards are overrepresented on the internet, but the truth is they tend to make more than their share of noise in any context, so it's important to have some strategy to deal with them. ... Separately, I think your point about the demographics is a good one. Obviously, the sample sizes are small and so basically none of it is reliable (statistically significant), but still, it can give some clues. As far as I can see states on that map which have the most-significant (not largest) advantages for Yes, approval are New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, South Carolina, Oregon, and Florida. Smaller states would be unlikely to show significance even if there were an advantage, but the small New England states might be promising too. Jameson 2012/3/21 Kristofer Munsterhjelm km_el...@lavabit.com On 03/20/2012 01:51 PM, Jameson Quinn wrote: I know that online polls are silly. But thousands of people see them, and if they see that the idea actually has support, some of them will be more open to consider if it has merit. While the poll has comments of low quality, and the users seem to be against Approval at the moment, I do think even those low-quality comments can be useful. Namely, they give us insight into the objections, fair or not, to Approval itself. There are partisan arguments (this is a liberal plot to deny conservatives their voting power), what can be done about them? Can we point out places where conservatives are being hurt by vote-splitting? Can we point at Ron Paul when responding to a libertarian? Then there are method centric arguments. Some are just confused about what the thing means, as one can see by the oh, and let the voters vote for a single candidate many times type of posts. Others think it violates one-man one-vote. How can we clear that up? Perhaps by rephrasing it in terms of thumbs-up/thumbs-down? If each voter gets ten options to either do thumbs-up (approve) or not (don't approve), then the voting power is the same for each. Maybe that is a better phrasing than approve/not in any case, and maybe it's a better format, too, because it clears up the confusion between haven't made a choice about X (no approval) and have voted, but didn't like X (also no approval). And so on... The demographics, if representative, may also give some idea as to where it will be hard to sell. What kinds of people like Approval the least? Why? I do note that there are very few arguments about chicken dilemma situations. If there are barriers to Approval being adopted, that isn't it - at least not yet. Though one could of course say that the reason nobody objects using the chicken dilemma is that they haven't studied the thing enough to know there actually *is* a chicken dilemma problem. Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
Re: [EM] SodaHead online Approval Voting poll
I pointed out on SodaHead that the thumbs-up on the upper right of each post was an example of Approval voting, and those who think Approval is too complicated or undemocratic were free to restrict their votes to a single post. :) Mike On 3/21/2012 6:09 AM, Jameson Quinn wrote: What strikes me most about the comments is how many of them are positively proud of their loudmouth know-nothingism. The same people who think it's a liberal plot seem to enjoy showing off their closed-mindedness. That is, they see it not as a rational argument, but as a tribal counting-coup on those egghead liberals. Finding better rational arguments is not going to change such people's minds. I'm not really sure what would. It seems that they make up their minds pretty quickly and reflexively. Now I know that such blowhards are overrepresented on the internet, but the truth is they tend to make more than their share of noise in any context, so it's important to have some strategy to deal with them. ... Separately, I think your point about the demographics is a good one. Obviously, the sample sizes are small and so basically none of it is reliable (statistically significant), but still, it can give some clues. As far as I can see states on that map which have the most-significant (not largest) advantages for Yes, approval are New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, South Carolina, Oregon, and Florida. Smaller states would be unlikely to show significance even if there were an advantage, but the small New England states might be promising too. Jameson 2012/3/21 Kristofer Munsterhjelm km_el...@lavabit.com mailto:km_el...@lavabit.com On 03/20/2012 01:51 PM, Jameson Quinn wrote: I know that online polls are silly. But thousands of people see them, and if they see that the idea actually has support, some of them will be more open to consider if it has merit. While the poll has comments of low quality, and the users seem to be against Approval at the moment, I do think even those low-quality comments can be useful. Namely, they give us insight into the objections, fair or not, to Approval itself. There are partisan arguments (this is a liberal plot to deny conservatives their voting power), what can be done about them? Can we point out places where conservatives are being hurt by vote-splitting? Can we point at Ron Paul when responding to a libertarian? Then there are method centric arguments. Some are just confused about what the thing means, as one can see by the oh, and let the voters vote for a single candidate many times type of posts. Others think it violates one-man one-vote. How can we clear that up? Perhaps by rephrasing it in terms of thumbs-up/thumbs-down? If each voter gets ten options to either do thumbs-up (approve) or not (don't approve), then the voting power is the same for each. Maybe that is a better phrasing than approve/not in any case, and maybe it's a better format, too, because it clears up the confusion between haven't made a choice about X (no approval) and have voted, but didn't like X (also no approval). And so on... The demographics, if representative, may also give some idea as to where it will be hard to sell. What kinds of people like Approval the least? Why? I do note that there are very few arguments about chicken dilemma situations. If there are barriers to Approval being adopted, that isn't it - at least not yet. Though one could of course say that the reason nobody objects using the chicken dilemma is that they haven't studied the thing enough to know there actually *is* a chicken dilemma problem. Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
[EM] SodaHead online Approval Voting poll
I know that online polls are silly. But thousands of people see them, and if they see that the idea actually has support, some of them will be more open to consider if it has merit. Jameson -- Forwarded message -- Subject: [CES #4978] SodaHead Asks Readers about Approval Voting This is a poll that SodaHead posted. It has a bunch of comments, most of pretty low quality. Feel free to change that. Link: http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/should-voters-be-allowed-to-pick-multiple-candidates/question-2526939/ Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
Re: [EM] SodaHead online Approval Voting poll
Well, I made my voice heard. It's funny how many think Approval voting is too complicated, when there is an obvious example of it (the thumbs-up to the right of comments) on the SodaHead webpage. :) Mike I know that online polls are silly. But thousands of people see them, and if they see that the idea actually has support, some of them will be more open to consider if it has merit. Jameson -- Forwarded message -- Subject: [CES #4978] SodaHead Asks Readers about Approval Voting This is a poll that SodaHead posted. It has a bunch of comments, most of pretty low quality. Feel free to change that. Link: http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/should-voters-be-allowed-to-pick-multiple-candidates/question-2526939/ Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
Re: [EM] SodaHead online Approval Voting poll
Without experiential knowledge the crazies will dominate and sure enough that is exactly what appears to be happening in the comments to the poll. The recipe for change (IMHO of course) in the US is as follows: 1. choose the minimal change that will fix the problem. 2. create a site where people can play with the new option along side plurality. 3. have a suite of sound bites available to fight off the mind numbingly stupid objections that will come in. Repeat them often and loud. The only viable method is approval. I put together a site intended to allow playing with approval side by side with plurality (www.approvalvote.org) but never finished it. There are lots of others I imagine. Maybe I'll finish mine ... Sound bites might include things like: Imagine one hundred candidates on the ballot, what is your one vote worth in that situation? I'm sure this list can come up with much better ones... Matt -=- (sent from my phone, please pardon any spelling errs) - Original message - I know that online polls are silly. But thousands of people see them, and if they see that the idea actually has support, some of them will be more open to consider if it has merit. Jameson -- Forwarded message -- Subject: [CES #4978] SodaHead Asks Readers about Approval Voting This is a poll that SodaHead posted. It has a bunch of comments, most of pretty low quality. Feel free to change that. Link: http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/should-voters-be-allowed-to-pick-multiple-candidates/question-2526939/ Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
