Re: [EM] Voting Criteria 101, Four Criteria

2013-06-17 Thread Benjamin Grant
OK, now on to the questions and responses on the other Criteria:

 

 

From: Jameson Quinn [mailto:jameson.qu...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [EM] Voting Criteria 101, Four Criteria

In which case it (I think) becomes even more obvious and pointless as a
criteria (as any system that gave the victory to people who get less votes,
however we are counting and measuring votes, would make no sense, I think.)

Name: Participation

Description: If a ballot is added which prefers A to B, the addition of
the ballot must not change the winner from A to B

Thoughts:  This seems to make sense. If we do not require this, then we
permit voting systems where trying to vote sincerely

harms your interests. Also, any voting system that would fail
Participation would be I think fragile and react in not always 

predictable ways - like IRV. SO this seems to me to be a solid
requirement, that I can't imagine a system that failed this 

Criterion to have some other benefit so wonderful to make failing
Participation worth overlooking - I cannot imagine it.

 

You have fairly described the participation criterion. I would ask you to
consider that this criterion focuses only on the 

direction of preference, not its strength; and so it is inevitably biased
towards preferential systems, and dooms you to live 

within the limits set by Arrow's theorem. My two favorite systems - SODA
voting and the as-yet-unnamed version of 

Bucklin - both fail this criterion, though I would argue they do so in
relatively rare and minor ways, and both satisfy some 

weakened version of the criterion.

 I don't understand how a bias exists here. In every case I can currently
imagine, if an election as it stands has A winning, and one more ballot is
added which still prefers A to B, why should that ever cause the winner to
change to B?

Range/Score Voting: If A is winning, and the following ballot was added
(A:90, B:89) A would still be winning.  If IRV is being used and the
following ballot is added (D first place, A second place, B third place) we
wouldn't want B to suddenly be beating A. (Although in IRV I guess it could
happen, but the point is that we wouldn't want it to, right?)

This seems to be a serious issue. Whatever the voting method, if A is
currently winning, and one more ballot gets added that happens to favor A
with relation to B, how could it EVER be a good thing if B somehow becomes
the winner through the addition of that ballot?

I don't understand what bias has to do with the answer to that question?

Also, how could Bucklin (as I understand it) *ever* fail this one? Because a
ballot added that favors A to B under Bucklin would at minimum increase A by
the same amount as B, possibly more, but would *never* increase B more than
A, else the ballot could not be said to prefer A over B, right?

 

OK, that's several questions.

 

When would participation failure ever be a good thing? It wouldn't. But in
voting theory, tradeoffs are common. A system which had other desirable
features could fail a reasonable-sounding criterion, and if that failure is
minor and/or rare enough, that could still be a good system. I'd argue that
that's the case for Bucklin systems and the participation criterion. Though
there are certainly many people here who would argue with me on that
specific point, the fact is that choosing any system involves making
tradeoffs.

 

So, how does Bucklin fail participation? Imagine you had the following
votes, giving candidates X and Y grades A-F

 

49: X:A   Y:D

50: X:F   Y:D

 

The bloc of 50 voters is a majority, so they set the median. Or in Bucklin
terms, Y reaches a majority at grade D, while X doesn't until grade F, so Y
wins.

 

Now add 2 votes with X:C Y:B. Now, X reaches a majority at grade B, while Y
still doesn't until grade D. So now X wins, even though those votes favored
the prior winner Y.

 

I find this specific example implausible for multiple reasons, and think
that actual cases of participation failure would be very rare. For instance,
those last two voters could have voted X:F Y:B, and honestly expressed their
preference without changing the result.

 

OK, first of all, my brain does not seem to be able to handle letters on
both sides of the colon (:), so with your permission, let me alter the
typography of your example, hopefully functionally changing nothing:

 

49: X:1st   Y:4th

50: X:5th   Y:4th

 

So if I understand this right, under Bucklin, we look at all 1st place votes
(we need at least 50), and see if we have over half - we don't, so now we
look at all 2nd, still no, all 3rd, still no, and only when we consider 4th
place do we finally have enough votes for candidate Y to have enough to win.

 

Now we add two votes:

 

2: X:3rd   Y:2nd

 

Now we repeat the process, not enough 1st place votes (we need at least 51),
not enough 2nd place votes, and adding in 3rd place we now have 51,
precisely what we need for X to win.

 

OK I think I see what

Re: [EM] Voting Criteria 101, Four Criteria

2013-06-17 Thread Kristofer Munsterhjelm

On 06/16/2013 06:55 PM, Benjamin Grant wrote:

With your kind indulgence, I would like some assistance in understanding
and hopefully mastering the various voting criteria, so that I can more
intelligently and accurately understanding the strengths and weaknesses
of different voting systems.

So, if it’s alright, I would like to explain what I understand about
some of these voting criteria, a few at a time, perhaps, and perhaps the
group would be willing to “check my math” as it were and see if I
actually understand these, one by one?


No problem :-)


*Name*: *_Plurality_*

*Description*: If A gets more “first preference” ballots than B, A must
not lose to B.


Be careful not to mistake Plurality, the criterion, from Plurality the 
method. Plurality, the criterion, says: If there are two candidates X 
and Y so that X has more first place votes than Y has any place votes, 
then Y shouldn't win.


The Plurality criterion is only relevant when the voters may truncate 
their ballots. In it, there's an assumption that listed candidates are 
ranked higher than non-listed ones - a sort of Approval assumption, if 
you will.


To show a concrete example: say a voter votes A first, B second, and 
leaves C off the ballot. Furthermore say nobody actually ranks C. Then C 
shouldn't win, because A has more first-place votes than C has any-place 
votes.



*Name: _Majority_*

*Description*: If one candidate is preferred by an absolute majority of
voters, then that candidate must win.


That's right. More specifically, if a candidate has a majority of the 
first place votes, he should win. There's also a setwise version (mutual 
majority) where the criterion goes if a group of candidates is listed 
ahead of candidates not in that group, on a majority of the ballots, 
then a candidate in that group should win.




*Thoughts*: I might be missing something here, but this seems like a
no-brainer. If over 50% of the voters want someone, they should get him,
any other approach would seem to create minority rule? I guess a
challenge to this criteria might be the following: using Range Voting, A
gets a 90 range vote from 60 out of 100 voters, while B gets an 80 from
80 out of 100 voters. A’s net is 5400, but B’s net is 6400, so B would
win (everyone else got less).  Does this fail the Majority Criterion,
because A got a higher vote from over half, or does it fulfill Majority
because B’s net was greater than A’s net??


There are usually two arguments against the Majority criterion from 
those that like cardinal methods.


First, there's the pizza example: say three people are deciding on 
what piza to get. Two of them prefer pepperoni to everything else, but 
the last person absolutely can't have pepperoni. Then, the argument 
goes, it would be unreasonable and unflexible to pick the pepperoni 
pizza just because a majority wanted it.


Second, there's the redistribution argument. Consider a public election 
where a candidate wants to confiscate everything a certain minority owns 
and then distribute the loot to the majority. If the electorate is 
simple enough, a majority might vote for that candidate, but the choice 
would not be a good one.


Briefly: the argument against Majority is tyranny of majority. But 
ranked methods can't know whether any given election is a 
tyranny-of-majority one, and between erring in favor of the majority and 
in favor of a minority (which might not be a good minority at all), the 
former's better. Condorcet's jury theorem is one way of formalizing that.


Rated methods could distinguish between tyranny-of-majority cases, were 
all the voters honest, but being subject to Gibbard and Satterthwaite 
just like ranked methods, they too can be gamed. There's usually a way 
for a majority to force a win if they absolutely want to, too[1].



*Name: _Participation_*

*Description*: If a ballot is added which prefers A to B, the addition
of the ballot must not change the winner from A to B

*Thoughts*:  This seems to make sense. If we do not require this, then
we permit voting systems where trying to vote sincerely harms your
interests. Also, any voting system that would fail Participation would
be I think fragile and react in not always predictable ways – like IRV.
SO this seems to me to be a solid requirement, that I can’t imagine a
system that failed this Criterion to have some other benefit so
wonderful to make failing Participation worth overlooking – I cannot
imagine it.


Welcome to the unintuitive world of voting methods :-) Arrow's theorem 
says you can't have unanimity (if everybody agrees that AB, B does not 
win), IIA (as you mention below) and non-dictatorship. Since one can't 
give up the latter two and have anything like a good ranked voting 
method, that means every method must fail IIA.


The trade-off with Participation is similar. It is impossible, for 
instance, to have a method that passes both Participation and Condorcet, 
so one has to choose which is more important. Similarly, 

Re: [EM] Voting Criteria 101, Four Criteria

2013-06-17 Thread Benjamin Grant
 -Original Message-
 From: Kristofer Munsterhjelm [mailto:km_el...@lavabit.com]
 Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 12:09 PM
 Subject: Re: [EM] Voting Criteria 101, Four Criteria
 
 On 06/16/2013 06:55 PM, Benjamin Grant wrote:
  *Name*: *_Plurality_*
 
  *Description*: If A gets more first preference ballots than B, A
  must not lose to B.
 
 Be careful not to mistake Plurality, the criterion, from Plurality the
method.
 Plurality, the criterion, says: If there are two candidates X and Y so
that X has
 more first place votes than Y has any place votes, then Y shouldn't win.
 
 The Plurality criterion is only relevant when the voters may truncate
their
 ballots. In it, there's an assumption that listed candidates are ranked
higher
 than non-listed ones - a sort of Approval assumption, if you will.
 
 To show a concrete example: say a voter votes A first, B second, and
leaves C
 off the ballot. Furthermore say nobody actually ranks C. Then C shouldn't
 win, because A has more first-place votes than C has any-place votes.

OK, that makes sense.

  *Name: _Majority_*
  *Thoughts*: I might be missing something here, but this seems like a
  no-brainer. If over 50% of the voters want someone, they should get
  him, any other approach would seem to create minority rule? I guess a
  challenge to this criteria might be the following: using Range Voting,
  A gets a 90 range vote from 60 out of 100 voters, while B gets an 80
  from
  80 out of 100 voters. A's net is 5400, but B's net is 6400, so B would
  win (everyone else got less).  Does this fail the Majority Criterion,
  because A got a higher vote from over half, or does it fulfill
  Majority because B's net was greater than A's net??
 
 There are usually two arguments against the Majority criterion from those
 that like cardinal methods.
 
 First, there's the pizza example: say three people are deciding on what
piza
 to get. Two of them prefer pepperoni to everything else, but the last
person
 absolutely can't have pepperoni. Then, the argument goes, it would be
 unreasonable and unflexible to pick the pepperoni pizza just because a
 majority wanted it.
 
 Second, there's the redistribution argument. Consider a public election
 where a candidate wants to confiscate everything a certain minority owns
 and then distribute the loot to the majority. If the electorate is simple
 enough, a majority might vote for that candidate, but the choice would not
 be a good one.
 
 Briefly: the argument against Majority is tyranny of majority. But
ranked
 methods can't know whether any given election is a tyranny-of-majority
one,
 and between erring in favor of the majority and in favor of a minority
(which
 might not be a good minority at all), the former's better. Condorcet's
jury
 theorem is one way of formalizing that.

In my (limited) experience, every instance where there has been an
allegation of tyranny of the majority, the reverse choice is something even
worse, tyranny of the minority. While ultimately certain things, like human
rights, shouldn't be a matter for voting at all, if something deserves a
vote it probably deserves to serve the greatest good for the greatest
number.

To take your pizza analogy, if the two people *only* want pepperoni, it
would be selfish of the third to expect the majority to bend to his desires.
On the other hand, if the two people are already fine with *either*
pepperoni or plain, then they will say so.

Ultimately, the only time I find when people complain about the tyranny of
the majority is when they are in a minority that doesn't want what the
majority truly does - and that's just the downside of not being a dictator.

So I guess I would say this - whenever you hear the phrase tyranny of the
majority, you can probably indentify the speaker is *usually* someone who
wants more power over the selection process than they ought to have.

  *Name: _Participation_*
 
  *Description*: If a ballot is added which prefers A to B, the addition
  of the ballot must not change the winner from A to B
 
  *Thoughts*:  This seems to make sense. If we do not require this, then
  we permit voting systems where trying to vote sincerely harms your
  interests. Also, any voting system that would fail Participation would
  be I think fragile and react in not always predictable ways - like IRV.
  SO this seems to me to be a solid requirement, that I can't imagine a
  system that failed this Criterion to have some other benefit so
  wonderful to make failing Participation worth overlooking - I cannot
  imagine it.
 
 Welcome to the unintuitive world of voting methods :-) Arrow's theorem
 says you can't have unanimity (if everybody agrees that AB, B does not
 win), IIA (as you mention below) and non-dictatorship. Since one can't
give
 up the latter two and have anything like a good ranked voting method, that
 means every method must fail IIA.

Wow.  I am just starting to get exposed to this stuff, but it is being a
bitter pill to swallow

Re: [EM] Voting Criteria 101, Four Criteria

2013-06-17 Thread Jameson Quinn
2013/6/17 Kristofer Munsterhjelm km_el...@lavabit.com

 On 06/16/2013 06:55 PM, Benjamin Grant wrote:

 With your kind indulgence, I would like some assistance in understanding
 and hopefully mastering the various voting criteria, so that I can more
 intelligently and accurately understanding the strengths and weaknesses
 of different voting systems.

 So, if it’s alright, I would like to explain what I understand about
 some of these voting criteria, a few at a time, perhaps, and perhaps the
 group would be willing to “check my math” as it were and see if I
 actually understand these, one by one?


 No problem :-)

  *Name*: *_Plurality_*

 *Description*: If A gets more “first preference” ballots than B, A must
 not lose to B.


 Be careful not to mistake Plurality, the criterion, from Plurality the
 method. Plurality, the criterion, says: If there are two candidates X and
 Y so that X has more first place votes than Y has any place votes, then Y
 shouldn't win.

 The Plurality criterion is only relevant when the voters may truncate
 their ballots. In it, there's an assumption that listed candidates are
 ranked higher than non-listed ones - a sort of Approval assumption, if you
 will.

 To show a concrete example: say a voter votes A first, B second, and
 leaves C off the ballot. Furthermore say nobody actually ranks C. Then C
 shouldn't win, because A has more first-place votes than C has any-place
 votes.


Right. Kristofer's response here is better than mine was.



  *Name: _Majority_*

 *Description*: If one candidate is preferred by an absolute majority of

 voters, then that candidate must win.


 That's right. More specifically, if a candidate has a majority of the
 first place votes, he should win. There's also a setwise version (mutual
 majority) where the criterion goes if a group of candidates is listed
 ahead of candidates not in that group, on a majority of the ballots, then a
 candidate in that group should win.


Kristofer gives the ranked version of Mutual Majority. The rated version
is: If a group of candidates is listed at or above a certain rating, and
those not in the group below that rating, on a majority of ballots, then a
candidate in that group should win. This criterion, in at least one of its
versions, is a prerequisite for IoC. I prefer the rated version, but those
like Kristofer who are working within the Arrovian paradigm prefer the
ranked one.

(Note that the mere fact that the rated paradigm is newer than the Arrovian
one does not necessarily make it better. Saari's ranked-symmetry paradigm
is newer than Arrow's, and also in my opinion worse. So in this debate
between people like me and people like Kristofer, there is no short cut to
evaluating each side's arguments on their merits. I of course think I'm
right, but Kristofer is a very smart guy, and you would be unwise to ignore
his side.)



 *Thoughts*: I might be missing something here, but this seems like a

 no-brainer. If over 50% of the voters want someone, they should get him,
 any other approach would seem to create minority rule? I guess a
 challenge to this criteria might be the following: using Range Voting, A
 gets a 90 range vote from 60 out of 100 voters, while B gets an 80 from
 80 out of 100 voters. A’s net is 5400, but B’s net is 6400, so B would
 win (everyone else got less).  Does this fail the Majority Criterion,
 because A got a higher vote from over half, or does it fulfill Majority
 because B’s net was greater than A’s net??


 There are usually two arguments against the Majority criterion from those
 that like cardinal methods.

 First, there's the pizza example: say three people are deciding on what
 piza to get. Two of them prefer pepperoni to everything else, but the last
 person absolutely can't have pepperoni. Then, the argument goes, it would
 be unreasonable and unflexible to pick the pepperoni pizza just because a
 majority wanted it.

 Second, there's the redistribution argument. Consider a public election
 where a candidate wants to confiscate everything a certain minority owns
 and then distribute the loot to the majority. If the electorate is simple
 enough, a majority might vote for that candidate, but the choice would not
 be a good one.

 Briefly: the argument against Majority is tyranny of majority. But
 ranked methods can't know whether any given election is a
 tyranny-of-majority one, and between erring in favor of the majority and in
 favor of a minority (which might not be a good minority at all), the
 former's better. Condorcet's jury theorem is one way of formalizing that.

 Rated methods could distinguish between tyranny-of-majority cases, were
 all the voters honest, but being subject to Gibbard and Satterthwaite just
 like ranked methods, they too can be gamed. There's usually a way for a
 majority to force a win if they absolutely want to, too[1].


I agree 100% with what Kristofer has said here.


  *Name: _Participation_*

 *Description*: If a ballot is added which 

[EM] Voting Criteria 101, Four Criteria

2013-06-16 Thread Benjamin Grant
With your kind indulgence, I would like some assistance in understanding and
hopefully mastering the various voting criteria, so that I can more
intelligently and accurately understanding the strengths and weaknesses of
different voting systems.

 

So, if it's alright, I would like to explain what I understand about some of
these voting criteria, a few at a time, perhaps, and perhaps the group would
be willing to check my math as it were and see if I actually understand
these, one by one?

 

I'll start with what seem to be the simpler ones. (For what it's worth, my
understanding comes from various websites that do not always agree with each
other.  Also, I have the fundamental belief that one cannot consider oneself
to have mastered something until and unless one has the ability to
understand it well enough to explain it to someone else - which is what I
will try to do below, re-explain these criteria as a test to see if I really
get them.)

 

Name: Plurality

Description: If A gets more first preference ballots than B, A must not
lose to B.

Thoughts: If I understand this correctly, this is not a critical criteria to
my way of thinking.  Consider an election with 10 candidates. A gets 13% of
the first place votes, more than any other single candidate. And yet B gets
8% of the first place votes, and 46% of the second place votes. It seems
obvious to me that B ought to win. And yet, in this circumstance, this
violates the above Plurality Criterion. Therefor is seems to be that the
Plurality Criterion is not useful, to my way of thinking.

 

Name: Majority

Description: If one candidate is preferred by an absolute majority of
voters, then that candidate must win.

Thoughts: I might be missing something here, but this seems like a
no-brainer. If over 50% of the voters want someone, they should get him, any
other approach would seem to create minority rule? I guess a challenge to
this criteria might be the following: using Range Voting, A gets a 90 range
vote from 60 out of 100 voters, while B gets an 80 from 80 out of 100
voters. A's net is 5400, but B's net is 6400, so B would win (everyone else
got less).  Does this fail the Majority Criterion, because A got a higher
vote from over half, or does it fulfill Majority because B's net was greater
than A's net??

 

Name: Participation

Description: If a ballot is added which prefers A to B, the addition of the
ballot must not change the winner from A to B

Thoughts:  This seems to make sense. If we do not require this, then we
permit voting systems where trying to vote sincerely harms your interests.
Also, any voting system that would fail Participation would be I think
fragile and react in not always predictable ways - like IRV. SO this seems
to me to be a solid requirement, that I can't imagine a system that failed
this Criterion to have some other benefit so wonderful to make failing
Participation worth overlooking - I cannot imagine it.

 

Name: Independence of Irrelevant Alternatives (IIA)

Description: Adding a new candidate B to an election that previously A would
have won must not cause anyone apart from A or B to win.  That is, If A
would have won before B was added to the ballot, C must not win now.

Thoughts:  This also seems fairly non-controversial. This I think is the
repudiation of the spoiler effect - that just because Nader enters the race
shouldn't disadvantage the candidate that would have won before that
happened.  This would seem (to me) to also be a good Criterion to hold to in
order to encourage more than just two Candidates/Parties always dominating
the scene.  I wonder what the downside would be to strongly embracing this
criteria?

 

Question: It seems to me that another criterion I have heard of -
Independence of Clones(IoC) - is a subset of IIA, that if a system satisfies
IIA, it would have to satisfy the Independence of Clones criterion as well -
is that correct? If not, what system what satisfy IoC but *not* satisfy IIA?

 

Question: it seems like the two above criteria - Participation and IIA -
would be related. Is it possible to fail one and not the other? Or does
either wind up mandate the other - for example, a system with IIA must also
fulfill Participation, or vice versa?

 

So let me stop there for now - I know there are other Criteria, but let me
pause so you guys can tell me what I am getting right and what I am getting
wrong.

 

Thanks.

 

-Benn Grant

eFix Computer Consulting

 mailto:b...@4efix.com b...@4efix.com

603.283.6601


Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info


Re: [EM] Voting Criteria 101, Four Criteria

2013-06-16 Thread Jameson Quinn
2013/6/16 Benjamin Grant b...@4efix.com

 ...I would like to explain what I understand about some of these voting
 criteria, a few at a time...


Thanks for doing this, and again, welcome.

*Name*: *Plurality*

 *Description*: If A gets more “first preference” ballots than B, A must
 not lose to B.

 *Thoughts*: If I understand this correctly, this is not a critical
 criteria to my way of thinking.  Consider an election with 10 candidates. A
 gets 13% of the first place votes, more than any other single candidate.
 And yet B gets 8% of the first place votes, and 46% of the second place
 votes. It seems obvious to me that B “ought” to win. And yet, in this
 circumstance, this violates the above Plurality Criterion. Therefor is
 seems to be that the Plurality Criterion is not useful, to my way of
 thinking.


I think that most here would agree with what you've said.


 

 ** **

 *Name: Majority*

 *Description*: If one candidate is preferred by an absolute majority of
 voters, then that candidate must win.


Presumably, by preferred, you mean preferred over all others. This
definition is actually a bit controversial. I'll explain, but I have to go
back a bit. Note that all that follows is my personal opinion; it's far too
opinionated to pass muster at Wikipedia, and though I suspect that some
here would agree with most of it, I'm also sure that others will chime in
to debate me on some points.

The modern science of voting theory begins with Kenneth Arrow in the 1950s.
I happen to be reading Kuhn (*The Structure of Scientific Revolutions*) at
the moment, so I'll use his terms. Before Arrow, the study of single-winner
voting systems was disorganized and unscientific; though figures such as
Maurice Duverger and Duncan Black had important insights into the
incentives of plurality on parties and voters, they could offer little
guidance as to how to improve the situation. Arrow offered the first
paradigm for the field. The Arrovian paradigm is essentially preferential,
and it tends to lead toward Condorcet systems as being best.

From its very beginning, Arrow's own theorem marked sharp limits to how far
you could go within his paradigm. Nonetheless, as Kuhn quotes from Bacon,
error leads to truth more quickly than confusion; that is, even a flawed
paradigm is immensely more productive than prescientific disorganization.
For instance, the important Gibbard-Satterthwaite theorem on strategy
followed close on the heels of Arrow's result.

Since Arrow, there have been other paradigms advanced. Around 1980, Steven
Brams suggested Approval Voting, a simple idea which prior to that had been
used but never theorized. This was clearly a step out of the Arrovian
paradigm, but it didn't quite yet offer an alternative basis for further
research and refinement. Donald Saari then reacted against approval by
advancing a paradigm based on ordinal ballots and mathematical symmetry
(and thus, Borda voting); in my opinion, his willful ignorance of strategic
issues makes his way of thinking ultimately counterproductive, though some
of the tools he created are useful.

So the first person to offer a truly fertile alternative to the Arrovian
paradigm was, in my opinion, Warren Smith (active on this list), with his
1999 paper on Range Voting. This system, now mostly called Score Voting,
goes beyond approval to allow fractional ratings. The division between
Arrovian, preferential systems, and Score-like systems has been expressed
using multiple terms: ranked versus rated (with rated systems sometimes
further subdivided into rated or graded); ordinal versus cardinal;
preferential versus ???; and my own favorite terms, comparative versus
evaluative.

Since Smith, there has also been work in yet another paradigm, that of
delegation. The DemoEx party in Sweden, the study of Asset voting, liquid
democracy, delegable proxy, delegated yes-no (DYN), the revival of interest
in Dodgson's 19th-century proposal for delegated proportional
representation, and most recently my own proposal Simple
Optionally-delegated Approval (SODA) all lie in this line of inquiry.

Still, as always, there are some who continue to mine the vein of the old
Arrovian paradigm, and it can't be said that that vein is entirely played
out. The new paradigms also remain much less well-established academically;
for instance, Smith's seminal paper has never been published in a
peer-reviewed journal.



So all of that history is a backdrop for the debate over how to apply the
definitions of such criteria as Majority and Mutual Majority to evaluative
systems. Your definition of Majority uses the word preferred, which
inevitably biases it towards ranked thinking. An advocate for evaluative
systems, like myself, would argue that it would be better to say voted as
favorably as possible. This distinction makes no difference at all for a
comparative system — a candidate who is preferred over all others is, by
definition, at the very top of any purely comparative ballot 

Re: [EM] Voting Criteria 101, Four Criteria

2013-06-16 Thread Benjamin Grant
, and A would win, but then B enters the race, I can get
A still winning.  I can get B leaping ahead somehow and winning.  What I
cannot understand is how a candidate that A was beating before B's entry,
somehow A now loses to. At least I cannot understand how any system that
fails this criteria could still be worth considering - how the outcome of A
beating C *until* B enters the race, after which C wins, is desirable. Is
there some example that explain how this turn of events could be somehow
fair or sensible?

 

Independence of Clones: since you are saying that IoC is not equivalent with
IIA, I will take up IoC independently along the way in a later set of
criteria.

 

I still am curious about this question:

Question: it seems like the two above criteria - Participation and IIA -
would be related. Is it possible to fail one and not the other? Or does
either wind up mandating the other - for example, a system with IIA must
also fulfill Participation, or vice versa?

Thanks for your time and help - and please, anyone who wants to chime in,
please do so, this is not just a conversation between myself and Jameson,
but between me and the community her.

 

Thanks! :)

 

-Benn Grant

eFix Computer Consulting

 mailto:b...@4efix.com b...@4efix.com

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From: Jameson Quinn [mailto:jameson.qu...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 4:44 PM
To: Benjamin Grant
Cc: election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Subject: Re: [EM] Voting Criteria 101, Four Criteria

 

 

2013/6/16 Benjamin Grant b...@4efix.com mailto:b...@4efix.com 

...I would like to explain what I understand about some of these voting
criteria, a few at a time...

 

Thanks for doing this, and again, welcome. 

 

Name: Plurality

Description: If A gets more first preference ballots than B, A must not
lose to B.

Thoughts: If I understand this correctly, this is not a critical criteria to
my way of thinking.  Consider an election with 10 candidates. A gets 13% of
the first place votes, more than any other single candidate. And yet B gets
8% of the first place votes, and 46% of the second place votes. It seems
obvious to me that B ought to win. And yet, in this circumstance, this
violates the above Plurality Criterion. Therefor is seems to be that the
Plurality Criterion is not useful, to my way of thinking.

 

I think that most here would agree with what you've said.

 

 

Name: Majority

Description: If one candidate is preferred by an absolute majority of
voters, then that candidate must win.

 

Presumably, by preferred, you mean preferred over all others. This
definition is actually a bit controversial. I'll explain, but I have to go
back a bit. Note that all that follows is my personal opinion; it's far too
opinionated to pass muster at Wikipedia, and though I suspect that some here
would agree with most of it, I'm also sure that others will chime in to
debate me on some points.

 

The modern science of voting theory begins with Kenneth Arrow in the 1950s.
I happen to be reading Kuhn (The Structure of Scientific Revolutions) at the
moment, so I'll use his terms. Before Arrow, the study of single-winner
voting systems was disorganized and unscientific; though figures such as
Maurice Duverger and Duncan Black had important insights into the incentives
of plurality on parties and voters, they could offer little guidance as to
how to improve the situation. Arrow offered the first paradigm for the
field. The Arrovian paradigm is essentially preferential, and it tends to
lead toward Condorcet systems as being best. 

 

From its very beginning, Arrow's own theorem marked sharp limits to how far
you could go within his paradigm. Nonetheless, as Kuhn quotes from Bacon,
error leads to truth more quickly than confusion; that is, even a flawed
paradigm is immensely more productive than prescientific disorganization.
For instance, the important Gibbard-Satterthwaite theorem on strategy
followed close on the heels of Arrow's result.

 

Since Arrow, there have been other paradigms advanced. Around 1980, Steven
Brams suggested Approval Voting, a simple idea which prior to that had been
used but never theorized. This was clearly a step out of the Arrovian
paradigm, but it didn't quite yet offer an alternative basis for further
research and refinement. Donald Saari then reacted against approval by
advancing a paradigm based on ordinal ballots and mathematical symmetry (and
thus, Borda voting); in my opinion, his willful ignorance of strategic
issues makes his way of thinking ultimately counterproductive, though some
of the tools he created are useful.

 

So the first person to offer a truly fertile alternative to the Arrovian
paradigm was, in my opinion, Warren Smith (active on this list), with his
1999 paper on Range Voting. This system, now mostly called Score Voting,
goes beyond approval to allow fractional ratings. The division between
Arrovian, preferential systems, and Score-like systems has been expressed
using multiple terms: ranked