Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Add option in Gala to disable minimize
Daniel, Sergey, you're right. I didn't realize that minimize could be used by devs to explicitly hide their apps. In fact, I now think with a dock type shell like pantheon, where running apps have a persistent icon in the dock (thus excluding the need for trivial indicators) minimize might be the best way to hide an app, while still keeping the dock icon (assuming that particular app is not pinned to the dock). But I do believe the manual minimize option should not exist for the user at all. Anyway, let's get back to this after Luna.. On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Daniel Foré wrote: I don't think it's a terribly good idea to completely ban minimize while we're still in a transition period. I think Plank's current "hide/show" behavior makes sense for now and I'm not terribly inclined to monkey with it too much for Luna. We should revisit this in Luna +1 when we're more confident that all of our default apps work 100% without minimizing and we've given 3rd party devs some time to catch up. On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff wrote: 2012/9/21 Nishant Agrwal Okay, I think you're right. The dock's the correct place to start. How do you feel about losing explicit minimize though? Do you guys think you can live without it? Why should we? Taking it away is way more work than leaving it in place, so we'd better spend time on something that's actually useful. -- Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Best Regards, Daniel Foré elementaryos.org -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Add option in Gala to disable minimize
I don't think it's a terribly good idea to completely ban minimize while we're still in a transition period. I think Plank's current "hide/show" behavior makes sense for now and I'm not terribly inclined to monkey with it too much for Luna. We should revisit this in Luna +1 when we're more confident that all of our default apps work 100% without minimizing and we've given 3rd party devs some time to catch up. On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff < ser...@elementaryos.org> wrote: > 2012/9/21 Nishant Agrwal > >> Okay, I think you're right. The dock's the correct place to start. How do >> you feel about losing explicit minimize though? Do you guys think you can >> live without it? > > > Why should we? Taking it away is way more work than leaving it in place, > so we'd better spend time on something that's actually useful. > > -- > Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff > OS architect @ elementary > > -- > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > -- Best Regards, Daniel Foré elementaryos.org -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Add option in Gala to disable minimize
2012/9/21 Nishant Agrwal > Okay, I think you're right. The dock's the correct place to start. How do > you feel about losing explicit minimize though? Do you guys think you can > live without it? Why should we? Taking it away is way more work than leaving it in place, so we'd better spend time on something that's actually useful. -- Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Add option in Gala to disable minimize
Okay, I think you're right. The dock's the correct place to start. How do you feel about losing explicit minimize though? Do you guys think you can live without it? On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 2:27 AM, Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff wrote: 2012/9/21 Nishant Agrwal About applications that want to hide on close, don't they use other mechanisms like for example, a music player would hide to the Sound Menu? I'll answer with a quote: In Ubuntu, many programs — Rhythmbox, Banshee, VLC, Pino, and Pidgin, to name just five — put items in the notification area that aren’t notifications at all. Often this is a substitute for minimizing the window, to avoid cluttering the taskbar. For example VLC’s notification area has a menu with a “Hide VLC media player in taskbar” item, and the AllTray utility exists for people who want “to have a program always running, but easy to put out of the way”. That may make perfect sense to the developers of those individual applications. But looking at the operating system as a whole, it’s crazy. No competent designer, sitting down to design an operating system from scratch, would say to themselves “I know, let’s have two completely inconsistent ways to hide windows”. http://design.canonical.com/2010/04/notification-area/ Also an alternative approach to the problem might be to patch Plank's click behavior to something more useful like switching windows. Just food for thought :) I heavily favor this over messing with WM because the latter may break design of existing apps which we're definitely not going to do. For example, we're not converting menubars to AppMenus even though it's technically possible because it will severly break huge apps like Inkscape or GIMP. -- Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Add option in Gala to disable minimize
2012/9/21 Nishant Agrwal > About applications that want to hide on close, don't they use other > mechanisms like for example, a music player would hide to the Sound Menu? > I'll answer with a quote: > In Ubuntu, many programs — Rhythmbox, Banshee, VLC, Pino, and Pidgin, to > name just five — put items in the notification area that aren’t > notifications at all. > Often this is a substitute for minimizing the window, to avoid cluttering > the taskbar. For example VLC’s notification area has a menu with a “Hide > VLC media player in taskbar” item, and the AllTray utility exists for > people who want “to have a program always running, but easy to put out of > the way”. That may make perfect sense to the developers of those individual > applications. But looking at the operating system as a whole, it’s crazy. > No competent designer, sitting down to design an operating system from > scratch, would say to themselves “I know, let’s have two completely > inconsistent ways to hide windows”. http://design.canonical.com/2010/04/notification-area/ Also an alternative approach to the problem might be to patch Plank's > click behavior to something more useful like switching windows. Just food > for thought :) I heavily favor this over messing with WM because the latter may break design of existing apps which we're definitely not going to do. For example, we're not converting menubars to AppMenus even though it's technically possible because it will severly break huge apps like Inkscape or GIMP. -- Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Add option in Gala to disable minimize
My main reason for wanting this is to have a way to completely disable the possibility of minimize, even by clicking on the dock. It will encourage the user to use only workspaces for managing their windows. For example, if I am done with a browser window for the time being, but I want to keep it open. Say I'm buffering a video or something. Meanwhile, I want to check out a recipe or something unrelated . Now, I have an option to minimize my current window, open a new one, and work on that. I may have to check back on the recipe, so I minimize that window too, and by this time I've forgotten about the other window and open a word processor for some other work..this way the user's workflow can become untidy. However, if I didn't have the option to minimize, I would have opened another workspace, or at least would have seen and remembered all the open windows if I didn't . In the current situation, I think removing the minimize button alone does little more than make minimizing more sloppy, but disabling it (optionally) at the window manager level will actually enforce it. And of course, users who cannot live without minimize can enable it (although i would think an option in the shell plug would be needed if this setting is to be visible to the average user). It will definitely make testing the idea easier :) Also an alternative approach to the problem might be to patch Plank's click behavior to something more useful like switching windows. Just food for thought :) About applications that want to hide on close, don't they use other mechanisms like for example, a music player would hide to the Sound Menu? On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 12:09 AM, ttosttos Sa wrote: > Blurring the lines between minimize and close is a good vision that I'd > expect it to face challenges in real life for Luna. While the user > experience with elementary apps should be great, the reality is that the > Luna experience may not be that smooth for many users that depend on more > than just elementary apps. Take for example, a browser with a large number > of tabs, a virtual machine window, even shotwell. I'd expect those to be > common use cases with significant differences in user experience between > close and minimize. I agree that Luna messaging needs to be pretty good in > explaining why there's no minimize button, plus there should be a backdoor > to enable it for those too annoyed. I understand the backdoor kind of > exists, but the window decoration is missing in the theme. > > --ttosttos > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Keith Adair wrote: > >> Sergey: +1 >> >> I think it's currently a bit confusing that >> >> A. There is no minimize button >> >> B. Clicking on the app in Plank minimizes >> >> C. There is no indication that the app is running but minimized >> >> So I think there should be no one-click way to minimize for the user. If >> a user is desperately missing that function, there should be an toggle in >> Dconf. But I don't think that minimize fits into the elementary operational >> mindset. If an app like a music app wants to minimize, that's fine. >> >> On a related point, I think that a few different points about Luna are >> going to be seen as something totally new for some users, and might need >> some hand-holding and direction for the new user. >> >> A. No minimize >> >> B. No difference between running and non-running apps >> >> C. Fairly heavy use of multiple desktops, etc. >> >> Maybe a slideshow during install? >> >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff < >> ser...@elementaryos.org> wrote: >> >> 2012/9/20 Nishant Agrwal >> >>> What do you guys think of this: >>> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/gala/+spec/option-to-disable-minimize >>> >> >> I can't see the point of that personally. Could you provide an example >> use case in which disabling minimize on the WM side is better than leaving >> things as they are? >> >> In my vision minimize is still there but not exposed to the user; e.g. >> music player should minimize instead of closing if its window is closed >> while it's playing music. >> >> -- >> Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff >> >> >> >> -- >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >> Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >> >> > > -- > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Add option in Gala to disable minimize
Blurring the lines between minimize and close is a good vision that I'd expect it to face challenges in real life for Luna. While the user experience with elementary apps should be great, the reality is that the Luna experience may not be that smooth for many users that depend on more than just elementary apps. Take for example, a browser with a large number of tabs, a virtual machine window, even shotwell. I'd expect those to be common use cases with significant differences in user experience between close and minimize. I agree that Luna messaging needs to be pretty good in explaining why there's no minimize button, plus there should be a backdoor to enable it for those too annoyed. I understand the backdoor kind of exists, but the window decoration is missing in the theme. --ttosttos On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Keith Adair wrote: > Sergey: +1 > > I think it's currently a bit confusing that > > A. There is no minimize button > > B. Clicking on the app in Plank minimizes > > C. There is no indication that the app is running but minimized > > So I think there should be no one-click way to minimize for the user. If a > user is desperately missing that function, there should be an toggle in > Dconf. But I don't think that minimize fits into the elementary operational > mindset. If an app like a music app wants to minimize, that's fine. > > On a related point, I think that a few different points about Luna are > going to be seen as something totally new for some users, and might need > some hand-holding and direction for the new user. > > A. No minimize > > B. No difference between running and non-running apps > > C. Fairly heavy use of multiple desktops, etc. > > Maybe a slideshow during install? > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff < > ser...@elementaryos.org> wrote: > > 2012/9/20 Nishant Agrwal > >> What do you guys think of this: >> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/gala/+spec/option-to-disable-minimize >> > > I can't see the point of that personally. Could you provide an example use > case in which disabling minimize on the WM side is better than leaving > things as they are? > > In my vision minimize is still there but not exposed to the user; e.g. > music player should minimize instead of closing if its window is closed > while it's playing music. > > -- > Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff > > > > -- > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Add option in Gala to disable minimize
Sergey: +1 I think it's currently a bit confusing that A. There is no minimize button B. Clicking on the app in Plank minimizes C. There is no indication that the app is running but minimized So I think there should be no one-click way to minimize for the user. If a user is desperately missing that function, there should be an toggle in Dconf. But I don't think that minimize fits into the elementary operational mindset. If an app like a music app wants to minimize, that's fine. On a related point, I think that a few different points about Luna are going to be seen as something totally new for some users, and might need some hand-holding and direction for the new user. A. No minimize B. No difference between running and non-running apps C. Fairly heavy use of multiple desktops, etc. Maybe a slideshow during install? On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff wrote: 2012/9/20 Nishant Agrwal What do you guys think of this: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/gala/+spec/option-to-disable-minimize I can't see the point of that personally. Could you provide an example use case in which disabling minimize on the WM side is better than leaving things as they are? In my vision minimize is still there but not exposed to the user; e.g. music player should minimize instead of closing if its window is closed while it's playing music. -- Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Add option in Gala to disable minimize
2012/9/20 Nishant Agrwal > What do you guys think of this: > https://blueprints.launchpad.net/gala/+spec/option-to-disable-minimize > I can't see the point of that personally. Could you provide an example use case in which disabling minimize on the WM side is better than leaving things as they are? In my vision minimize is still there but not exposed to the user; e.g. music player should minimize instead of closing if its window is closed while it's playing music. -- Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Elementary-dev-community] Add option in Gala to disable minimize
What do you guys think of this: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/gala/+spec/option-to-disable-minimize -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
