[Elementary-dev-community] about TDD (Test Driven Development)
I read some threads focusing on TDD, so I wanted to create one where we can continue that conversation without being offtopic. I'd say my two cent about TDD and elementary os development. In my opinion our current environment is obstile to TDD for serveral reason: 1. Vala doesn't support TDD out of the box ( other languages do: http://cobra-language.com/ ) 2. GLib.Test is a unit test facility that is available to Vala applications, however it's not as advanced as CppUnit, NUnit and equivalent 3. TDD is great for libraries and backends, not so much for GUI applications and Database driven applications. 4. TDD needs lots of fakes and mocks to be written, and that could be very time expensive ( and tedious sometimes ) Some references to Unit testing on vala apps: http://valadoc.org/#!api=glib-2.0/GLib.Test http://esite.ch/2012/06/26/writing-tests-for-vala/ feel free to comment BR, Daniele OpenNingia Simonetti -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] about TDD (Test Driven Development)
I believe that this has been discussed quite thoroughly already. For now, TDD as a development philosophy is not really appropriate for the eOS development. That is not a direct result of tools missing for unittesting, but again, a development process decision. That said, I think that testing is important for elementary, and we are going to try and look for some automation testing. I will post my findings shortly about that. On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 3:38 PM, Daniele S. oppifjel...@gmail.com wrote: I do understand your point, and I agree with that. But what I want to discuss is not if the TDD is generally a good approach ( hint. it is ) but if it's the right approach for a community driven project like elementaryOS. about this statement: So if you can test something in a language (if its build in or not) you can run do TDD. You should also consider the effort ( and the cost ). When using a programming language that doesn't offer unit test facilities applying TDD may be tedious and require lots of effort ( like writing your own test suite engine ). ( as background, I'm used to agile methods, at work we use SCRUM and PRTI, we are introducing TDD but at a slow rate ) BR, Daniele 2013/9/3 Michael Lazarski mich...@lazarski.me ** Hello, TDD isn't a Technic its a mindset or a philosophy. It came from the Agile manifesto http://agilemanifesto.org/ . So if you can test something in a language (if its build in or not) you can run do TDD. Often young developers don't see the need for writing test and even experienced hackers don't do. How often where you hunting a bug and you had to log stuff to hunt the bug? Or how often you see code and you go WTF? Here come test in handy. Now the young padawan may ask why? IF a test is good written you don't need to log stuff because when you break something the test will tell you what and where. Now the young padawan says: But should't I write good code instead? Yes, but the god like programmer is a Myth and if you think your a good hacker your probably a very bad one! Facts ! But how test can make me faster understand someones code? Simple: People how have Higher Mathematics in School/College/University probably have seen mathematical proofs. Most students think that Teachers do that to annoy the shit out of you but this is just wrong and you probably very bad at Mathematics too... In Mathematical proofs like in test we can see the essence of what the hacker wanted to do. By looking at what he tested and how we can understand how things works and how the shouldn't. SO you can not test and the code must be rewritten a lot like in contractor. maybe not today or maybe not in 1 or 2 months but at some point it will happen and if the guy how wrote the shitty code is not there anymore you will prey for test and a documentation of the code. OH and when people say: look at the source and you will understand it. they are pretty dumb too... Hacking is Art! If I look at the Mona Lisa and someone else will do we maybe see the same thing but think very different! So don't be dumb! Test and Document if you have the workflow right it will take not more then 10 minutes of a work hour but it will save letter tons and tons of work hours! Greetings lampe2 Gruß Michael Lazarski -- life simply so other people can simply life! Inspired by: https://vimeo.com/17576843 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- *Von:* Daniele S. oppifjel...@gmail.com *Gesendet:* Die 3 September 2013 13:40 *An:* elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net *Betreff:* [Elementary-dev-community] about TDD (Test Driven Development) I read some threads focusing on TDD, so I wanted to create one where we can continue that conversation without being offtopic. I'd say my two cent about TDD and elementary os development. In my opinion our current environment is obstile to TDD for serveral reason: 1. Vala doesn't support TDD out of the box ( other languages do: http://cobra-language.com/ ) 2. GLib.Test is a unit test facility that is available to Vala applications, however it's not as advanced as CppUnit, NUnit and equivalent 3. TDD is great for libraries and backends, not so much for GUI applications and Database driven applications. 4. TDD needs lots of fakes and mocks to be written, and that could be very time expensive ( and tedious sometimes ) Some references to Unit testing on vala apps: http://valadoc.org/#!api=glib-2.0/GLib.Test http://esite.ch/2012/06/26/writing-tests-for-vala/ feel free to comment BR, Daniele OpenNingia Simonetti -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] about TDD (Test Driven Development)
Hi, Are weseriously having another thread on TDD? ~alourie said in this thread and very well: I believe that this has been discussed quite thoroughly already. For now, TDD as a development philosophy is not really appropriate for the eOS development. That is not a direct result of tools missing for unittesting, but again, a development process decision. There's not many of us (developers), we barely have time to fix bugs and implent new features, let alone learning TDD and implementing tests all over the place. Plus, you might be forgetting most of us are volunteers and amateur programmers. Most of the elementary OS applications were written by people with no degrees or experience in professional companies, we're not really used to TDD and we're busy studying French and Biology for school. If you want to implement some testing on elementary applications, go ahead and make a branch that implements tests and we'll consider it, all this talk is useless, especially when it's happened at least 2 times already on this very Mailing List. Please make your energy useful in more useful ways, ~David Munchor Gomes On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Daniele S. oppifjel...@gmail.com wrote: I read some threads focusing on TDD, so I wanted to create one where we can continue that conversation without being offtopic. I'd say my two cent about TDD and elementary os development. In my opinion our current environment is obstile to TDD for serveral reason: 1. Vala doesn't support TDD out of the box ( other languages do: http://cobra-language.com/ ) 2. GLib.Test is a unit test facility that is available to Vala applications, however it's not as advanced as CppUnit, NUnit and equivalent 3. TDD is great for libraries and backends, not so much for GUI applications and Database driven applications. 4. TDD needs lots of fakes and mocks to be written, and that could be very time expensive ( and tedious sometimes ) Some references to Unit testing on vala apps: http://valadoc.org/#!api=glib-2.0/GLib.Test http://esite.ch/2012/06/26/writing-tests-for-vala/ feel free to comment BR, Daniele OpenNingia Simonetti -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] about TDD (Test Driven Development)
Sergey, Autopilot and Unit tests are not the same thing. In fact, from the same Autopilot documentation: Autopilot exists at the apex of the “testing pyramid”. It is designed to test high-level functionality, and complement a solid base of unit and integration tests. *Using autopilot is not a substitute for testing your application with unit and integration tests!*. Autopilot is a very capable tool for testing high-level feature functionality. It is not an appropriate tool for testing low-level implementation details. also we're not talking on mere theory or philosophy; we posted real code, examples and documentation; also real-life experience. This is a sane discussion. BR, Daniele 2013/9/3 Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff ser...@elementaryos.org Please make your energy useful in more useful ways Dear TTD proponents, while you keep spending lots of time on writing these mails and the time of all the other devs on reading them, ~alourie is looking into Autopilot and experimenting with writing tests using it. I encourage you to follow his example. Please stop wasting everyone's time and go read Autopilot tutorialhttp://unity.ubuntu.com/autopilot/tutorial/tutorial.htmland write some tests instead of emails. You can find existing tests for GTK apps herehttps://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-testcase/ubuntu-autopilot-tests/trunkshall you need them. You can meet ~alourie in #elementary-dev if you want to catch up with what he's found so far. He's online most of the time, just keep in mind he's in GMT+4 timezone. -- Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] about TDD (Test Driven Development)
We don't write backends so we shouldn't have anything to unit test. By far the most of the code we write deals with GUI and thus should be tested using Autopilot. Even if we do have something to *unit* test, the added complexity, higher entry barrier and the time spent writing first the unit testing framework and then the tests is unlikely to pay off. If you disagree with the above, you're welcome to prove me wrong though. 200+ messages to mailing list have not convinced any of the core devs so far. You might have better luck convincing people if you come up with a unit testing framework, cover an app with unit tests (if you manage to find something to *unit* test in the first place) and demonstrate that it really actually saves time in a real-life scenario. But I expect simply helping us figure out Autopilot and write UI-driven tests to be much more productive. Either way, the choice is yours. -- Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] about TDD (Test Driven Development)
Please make your energy useful in more useful ways Dear TTD proponents, while you keep spending lots of time on writing these mails and the time of all the other devs on reading them, ~alourie is looking into Autopilot and experimenting with writing tests using it. I encourage you to follow his example. Please stop wasting everyone's time and go read Autopilot tutorialhttp://unity.ubuntu.com/autopilot/tutorial/tutorial.htmland write some tests instead of emails. You can find existing tests for GTK apps herehttps://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-testcase/ubuntu-autopilot-tests/trunkshall you need them. You can meet ~alourie in #elementary-dev if you want to catch up with what he's found so far. He's online most of the time, just keep in mind he's in GMT+4 timezone. -- Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] about TDD (Test Driven Development)
ok then, https://code.launchpad.net/~oppifjellet/cable/message-history in this branch I implemented some basic tests on the feature I added ( message history on cable irc client ) using GLib.Test. Refer to my last commit ( http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~oppifjellet/cable/message-history/revision/128) to run the tests simply build the application as usual mkdir build cd build cmake .. make then run ./cable_tests to run all the test or better run gtester --verbose -o report.xml ./cable_test to run the test and get a nice XML report. BR, Daniele 2013/9/3 David Gomes da...@elementaryos.org also we're not talking on mere theory or philosophy; we posted real code, examples and documentation; also real-life experience. This is a sane discussion. We don't need hypothetical examples on hypothetical apps, we want real examples on real apps. On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Daniele S. oppifjel...@gmail.com wrote: Sergey, Autopilot and Unit tests are not the same thing. In fact, from the same Autopilot documentation: Autopilot exists at the apex of the “testing pyramid”. It is designed to test high-level functionality, and complement a solid base of unit and integration tests. *Using autopilot is not a substitute for testing your application with unit and integration tests!*. Autopilot is a very capable tool for testing high-level feature functionality. It is not an appropriate tool for testing low-level implementation details. also we're not talking on mere theory or philosophy; we posted real code, examples and documentation; also real-life experience. This is a sane discussion. BR, Daniele 2013/9/3 Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff ser...@elementaryos.org Please make your energy useful in more useful ways Dear TTD proponents, while you keep spending lots of time on writing these mails and the time of all the other devs on reading them, ~alourie is looking into Autopilot and experimenting with writing tests using it. I encourage you to follow his example. Please stop wasting everyone's time and go read Autopilot tutorialhttp://unity.ubuntu.com/autopilot/tutorial/tutorial.htmland write some tests instead of emails. You can find existing tests for GTK apps herehttps://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-testcase/ubuntu-autopilot-tests/trunkshall you need them. You can meet ~alourie in #elementary-dev if you want to catch up with what he's found so far. He's online most of the time, just keep in mind he's in GMT+4 timezone. -- Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] about TDD (Test Driven Development)
What do you mean real apps? As long as the code executes, I don't see the value in the distinction. On Sep 3, 2013 2:30 PM, David Gomes da...@elementaryos.org wrote: also we're not talking on mere theory or philosophy; we posted real code, examples and documentation; also real-life experience. This is a sane discussion. We don't need hypothetical examples on hypothetical apps, we want real examples on real apps. On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Daniele S. oppifjel...@gmail.com wrote: Sergey, Autopilot and Unit tests are not the same thing. In fact, from the same Autopilot documentation: Autopilot exists at the apex of the “testing pyramid”. It is designed to test high-level functionality, and complement a solid base of unit and integration tests. *Using autopilot is not a substitute for testing your application with unit and integration tests!*. Autopilot is a very capable tool for testing high-level feature functionality. It is not an appropriate tool for testing low-level implementation details. also we're not talking on mere theory or philosophy; we posted real code, examples and documentation; also real-life experience. This is a sane discussion. BR, Daniele 2013/9/3 Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff ser...@elementaryos.org Please make your energy useful in more useful ways Dear TTD proponents, while you keep spending lots of time on writing these mails and the time of all the other devs on reading them, ~alourie is looking into Autopilot and experimenting with writing tests using it. I encourage you to follow his example. Please stop wasting everyone's time and go read Autopilot tutorialhttp://unity.ubuntu.com/autopilot/tutorial/tutorial.htmland write some tests instead of emails. You can find existing tests for GTK apps herehttps://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-testcase/ubuntu-autopilot-tests/trunkshall you need them. You can meet ~alourie in #elementary-dev if you want to catch up with what he's found so far. He's online most of the time, just keep in mind he's in GMT+4 timezone. -- Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] about TDD (Test Driven Development)
also we're not talking on mere theory or philosophy; we posted real code, examples and documentation; also real-life experience. This is a sane discussion. We don't need hypothetical examples on hypothetical apps, we want real examples on real apps. On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Daniele S. oppifjel...@gmail.com wrote: Sergey, Autopilot and Unit tests are not the same thing. In fact, from the same Autopilot documentation: Autopilot exists at the apex of the “testing pyramid”. It is designed to test high-level functionality, and complement a solid base of unit and integration tests. *Using autopilot is not a substitute for testing your application with unit and integration tests!*. Autopilot is a very capable tool for testing high-level feature functionality. It is not an appropriate tool for testing low-level implementation details. also we're not talking on mere theory or philosophy; we posted real code, examples and documentation; also real-life experience. This is a sane discussion. BR, Daniele 2013/9/3 Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff ser...@elementaryos.org Please make your energy useful in more useful ways Dear TTD proponents, while you keep spending lots of time on writing these mails and the time of all the other devs on reading them, ~alourie is looking into Autopilot and experimenting with writing tests using it. I encourage you to follow his example. Please stop wasting everyone's time and go read Autopilot tutorialhttp://unity.ubuntu.com/autopilot/tutorial/tutorial.htmland write some tests instead of emails. You can find existing tests for GTK apps herehttps://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-testcase/ubuntu-autopilot-tests/trunkshall you need them. You can meet ~alourie in #elementary-dev if you want to catch up with what he's found so far. He's online most of the time, just keep in mind he's in GMT+4 timezone. -- Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
