Re: [O] Assumptions on user's environment
* Samuel Wales samolog...@gmail.com wrote: perhaps this is possible: c-c ' - c-c c-x ' If you are using US_intl with digraph (deadkeys) in order to type special characters, ' needs actually two keys: ' + SPACE So I guess this is not that great for common commands typed often a day. -- mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode: get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on github
Re: [O] Assumptions on user's environment
Karl Voit devn...@karl-voit.at writes: In fact, I never use the original left CTRL key at all. And more or less thanks to bad habit, I never use the right CTRL key. Yep, I'm exactly in the same boat. -- Bastien
Re: [O] Assumptions on user's environment
Achim Gratz strom...@nexgo.de writes: I'd think you need to curl the pinky at least unless you're talking about a laptop keyboard with a favorable position for the Ctrl key. It's really a bad thing if you've developed certain types of RSI and may even be impossible if you have coordinative disabilities or can only use one hand. This is what sticky or locked modifiers were invented for (check how your favourite OS lets you set up accessibility features). Yes, I see, thanks. What do you think of `C-c :', as suggested in my reply to Thomas? -- Bastien
Re: [O] Assumptions on user's environment
Bastien wrote: What do you think of `C-c :', as suggested in my reply to Thomas? I'd favor a common `C-c C-' prefix for all moved key bindings. Best regards, Seb -- Sebastien Vauban
Re: [O] Assumptions on user's environment
perhaps this is possible: c-c ' - c-c c-x '
[O] Assumptions on user's environment (was: [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3)
* Samuel Wales samolog...@gmail.com wrote: Hi! i meant that c-c c-' and c-c c- are both cumbersome for those users who press c-c by holding down the control key with the right hand and then pressing c with the left hand. c-c ' is not cumbersome for those users. Oh, this is a sensitive subject :-) For example: I am happily removing CAPS LOCK on all of my computers and replace it with an additional CTRL key. This way, I am using my left pinkie for all kinds of CTRL-combinations. As long as it is not combined with [`123q~] or TAB, I am fine. And: although I am living in a German speaking country, I am using US_intl keyboard settings. Most keyboard shortcuts make more sense since I switched. Unfortunately, software developers who define keyboard shortcuts have either settle for their own keyboard layout (mostly en_US) or keyboard shortcuts are part of the i18n layer which has also some drawbacks IMHO. The point is: when you are settling for keyboard shortcuts, you are going to do some assumptions on the environment of your users. So: what are these assumptions for Emacs/Org-mode? I guess this is the root question we should try to answer (and document). -- mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode: get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on github
Re: [O] Assumptions on user's environment
Hi Karl, Karl Voit devn...@karl-voit.at writes: So: what are these assumptions for Emacs/Org-mode? I guess this is the root question we should try to answer (and document). Well, this is a general Emacs issue. I guess the assumption is that keybindings are optimized for US keyboards layouts - that said, some core keybindings are based on mnemonic (C-f and C-b to move forward and backward), so optimized seems a bit fuzzy anyway... -- Bastien
Re: [O] Assumptions on user's environment
* Bastien b...@gnu.org wrote: Hi Karl, Hi Bastien! Karl Voit devn...@karl-voit.at writes: So: what are these assumptions for Emacs/Org-mode? I guess this is the root question we should try to answer (and document). Well, this is a general Emacs issue. Sure. I guess the assumption is that keybindings are optimized for US keyboards layouts - that said, some core keybindings are based on mnemonic (C-f and C-b to move forward and backward), so optimized seems a bit fuzzy anyway... Fair enough. So there has to be a decision whether or not to invest time/effort for users of QWERTZ keyboard layouts. If we should decide to ignore non US_intl/en_US-issues, I vote for making this decision very clear to new users with a prominent sentence in our documentation. Personally, I do think that tech-savvy users of non English speaking countries should definitely consider switching to US_intl layout for many reasons. From my experience, only a minority of text-savvy users are doing so. But this is also true for applying live-hacking as a habit in general :-( -- mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode: get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on github
Re: [O] Assumptions on user's environment
Karl Voit devn...@karl-voit.at writes: Personally, I do think that tech-savvy users of non English speaking countries should definitely consider switching to US_intl layout for many reasons. What if the set of letters in English is a subset of the set of letters in your the tech-savvy users language? From my experience, only a minority of text-savvy users are doing so. Perhaps the objective that these users are maximizing another objective than the one you have in mind? —Rasmus -- If you can mix business and politics wonderful things can happen!
Re: [O] Assumptions on user's environment
* Rasmus ras...@gmx.us wrote: Karl Voit devn...@karl-voit.at writes: Personally, I do think that tech-savvy users of non English speaking countries should definitely consider switching to US_intl layout for many reasons. What if the set of letters in English is a subset of the set of letters in your the tech-savvy users language? This is the case with the German language. However, there are ways to enter German umlauts with us_intl layout (digraph). With Microsoft Windows as an exception, it is possible to switch keyboard layouts on keyboard shortcuts. However, when I am coding, I am only using English variable names and comments. So most of the time, I am happy with 7-bit ASCII characters. If you do not code nor use strange environments like LaTeX, you might as well ignore my comments about tech-savvy people which was maybe a bit too general. From my experience, only a minority of text-savvy users are doing so. Perhaps the objective that these users are maximizing another objective than the one you have in mind? Yes, you are absolutely right. So tech-savvy is probably too unspecific as a term. However, coders seems to be narrow as well. Maybe you can think of a term in between? ;-) -- mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode: get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on github
Re: [O] Assumptions on user's environment (was: [RFC] Proposal for rebindings in Org 8.3)
hi karl, it is true that there are assumptions about the user's environment. the strongest is probably qwerty, followed by european language, english, and common layouts. as a native english speaker, i am aware that i am fortunate in that regard. i get to use utf-8 without making my text files larger, unlike some asian speakers, for example. HOWEVER: my point was not about the user's environment at all. it applies to whatever environment is chosen for the assumptions. on qwerty, c is on the lhs. ' is on the rhs. /that/ is why c-c c-' is more cumbersome for using two hands for modifiers. remember: using one hand for both modifier and key is never an option. === hope that clarifies. samuel On 2/9/14, Karl Voit devn...@karl-voit.at wrote: * Samuel Wales samolog...@gmail.com wrote: Hi! i meant that c-c c-' and c-c c- are both cumbersome for those users who press c-c by holding down the control key with the right hand and then pressing c with the left hand. c-c ' is not cumbersome for those users. Oh, this is a sensitive subject :-) For example: I am happily removing CAPS LOCK on all of my computers and replace it with an additional CTRL key. This way, I am using my left pinkie for all kinds of CTRL-combinations. As long as it is not combined with [`123q~] or TAB, I am fine. And: although I am living in a German speaking country, I am using US_intl keyboard settings. Most keyboard shortcuts make more sense since I switched. Unfortunately, software developers who define keyboard shortcuts have either settle for their own keyboard layout (mostly en_US) or keyboard shortcuts are part of the i18n layer which has also some drawbacks IMHO. The point is: when you are settling for keyboard shortcuts, you are going to do some assumptions on the environment of your users. So: what are these assumptions for Emacs/Org-mode? I guess this is the root question we should try to answer (and document). -- mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode: get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on github -- The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com The disease DOES progress. MANY people have died from it. ANYBODY can get it. Denmark: free Karina Hansen NOW.
Re: [O] Assumptions on user's environment
Samuel Wales samolog...@gmail.com writes: remember: using one hand for both modifier and key is never an option. Why? For me C-c C-' is very easy with one hand, I don't even need to move the fingers. -- Bastien
Re: [O] Assumptions on user's environment
rsi. one of the worst things you can do is use a single hand for more than one key. On 2/9/14, Bastien b...@gnu.org wrote: Samuel Wales samolog...@gmail.com writes: remember: using one hand for both modifier and key is never an option. Why? For me C-c C-' is very easy with one hand, I don't even need to move the fingers. -- Bastien -- The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com The disease DOES progress. MANY people have died from it. ANYBODY can get it. Denmark: free Karina Hansen NOW.
Re: [O] Assumptions on user's environment
Bastien writes: Samuel Wales samolog...@gmail.com writes: remember: using one hand for both modifier and key is never an option. Why? For me C-c C-' is very easy with one hand, I don't even need to move the fingers. I'd think you need to curl the pinky at least unless you're talking about a laptop keyboard with a favorable position for the Ctrl key. It's really a bad thing if you've developed certain types of RSI and may even be impossible if you have coordinative disabilities or can only use one hand. This is what sticky or locked modifiers were invented for (check how your favourite OS lets you set up accessibility features). Regards, Achim. -- +[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]+ SD adaptation for Waldorf rackAttack V1.04R1: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSDada
Re: [O] Assumptions on user's environment
* Achim Gratz strom...@nexgo.de wrote: Bastien writes: Samuel Wales samolog...@gmail.com writes: remember: using one hand for both modifier and key is never an option. Why? For me C-c C-' is very easy with one hand, I don't even need to move the fingers. I'd think you need to curl the pinky at least unless you're talking about a laptop keyboard with a favorable position for the Ctrl key. I am using Lenovo UltraNav USB keyboards on Windows and Linux machines and an Apple BT keyboard on a Mac. On all of them I can type C-c with a *completely relaxed* left pinkie and a left index finger thanks to an additional CTRL key instead of the CAPS LOCK. My left pinkie seldom moves away from the left CAPS LOCK position. In fact, I never use the original left CTRL key at all. And more or less thanks to bad habit, I never use the right CTRL key. Unfortunately, I do not touch type all the time. And I know, that my typing behavior is not optimized. However, it's that fast that changing my typing habits at this point seems to be a hard thing to do for very little benefit. I never had any physical issues related to typing. I tend to think that this is because of the CAPSLOCK/CTRL trick. I get the impression from this thread, that this varies from user to user. -- mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode: get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on github
