Re: [O] The Org Package
Hi all, Achim Gratz strom...@nexgo.de writes: David Masterson writes: What does this mean? What I said: don't load any part of Org until you have installed the ELPA package. This usually means not to run any startup scripts. I've know made this clearer in the manual. Nicolas Richard theonewiththeevill...@yahoo.fr writes: The pitfall here is that you _must_ do the first install of the Org package from an Emacs that didn't load any part of the built-in Org. That's an interesting piece of information. I can't find it in (info (org) Installation). Now it is! Thanks, -- Bastien
Re: [O] The Org Package
David Masterson writes: Hmmm. I would think that this process might work as well: 1. Start with emacs -Q This fails with some older versions of Emacs since these had a bug where parts of the init scripts were processed even when you said explicitly that they shouldn't be read. 2. Bring up the Emacs Packages list 3. Mark the available org for Upgrade 4. Execute the upgrade 5. Restart Emacs With the version of Emacs you have that should work, yes. The only question is what about the built-in Org? Leave it alone. Unless you _are_ planning to build your own Emacs without it, nothing can be done that might not lead to hard to find problems later on. If you're willing to experiment, look at testing/org-batch-test-init.el for how to get rid of the pre-installed Org (or at least those parts that I know about). Obviously it works in batch mode, otherwise we'd have tons of complaints about it; but I can't really say if there might be problems with a full-fledged GUI Emacs session. Regards, Achim. -- +[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]+ DIY Stuff: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/DIY.html
Re: [O] The Org Package
t...@tsdye.com (Thomas S. Dye) writes: David Masterson dsmaster...@gmail.com writes: Achim Gratz strom...@nexgo.de writes: David Masterson writes: Something doesn't seem right and I'm sure I'm missing some key in understanding how its supposed to work. What I see right now seems like something doesn't match up -- particularly with the Org package: 1. Most modern Emacs have Org pre-installed. 2. Unfortunately, that Org is not up-to-date (24.3 has 7.9.3f). 3. Therefore, installing the latest Org package seems natural. The pitfall here is that you _must_ do the first install of the Org package from an Emacs that didn't load any part of the built-in Org. What does this mean? Does this mean you expect people to build Emacs from scratch just to ensure they do not have Org built-in? I believe it means the installation must be done from an Emacs instance that hasn't loaded any Org mode functions yet. You must make sure there are no =Org-mode= functions loaded while the update is done. For that, exit Emacs and then run Emacs without loading your =.emacs= (=Emacs -Q=). Remove the old =Org-mode= #+BEGIN_SRC sh rm -rf ~/.emacs.d/elpa/org-Tab #+END_SRC where =Tab= means press =Tab= to see and auto complete the old =Org-mode= directory you want to remove. Finally, update =Org-mode= (=M-x package-install RET org RET=) and restart Emacs as usual. See http://nickhigham.wordpress.com/2013/07/05/emacs-org-mode-version-8/ Hmmm. I would think that this process might work as well: 1. Start with emacs -Q 2. Bring up the Emacs Packages list 3. Mark the available org for Upgrade 4. Execute the upgrade 5. Restart Emacs The only question is what about the built-in Org? -- David Masterson Programmer At Large
Re: [O] The Org Package
David Masterson writes: What does this mean? What I said: don't load any part of Org until you have installed the ELPA package. This usually means not to run any startup scripts. Does this mean you expect people to build Emacs from scratch just to ensure they do not have Org built-in? I don't expect anything like that from anybody. Regards, Achim. -- +[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]+ Wavetables for the Waldorf Blofeld: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#BlofeldUserWavetables
Re: [O] The Org Package
Thank you for this discussion, John, David and others. When installing a new distro, it sure seems wise to not include the Org options at Emacs install time (Ubuntu installers I use). And to set up the Org location and Git system soonest.
Re: [O] The Org Package
David Masterson writes: I still need more understanding of the Emacs packaging system. That's a question you better ask of the Emacs developers, after you've read the documentation. Something doesn't seem right and I'm sure I'm missing some key in understanding how its supposed to work. What I see right now seems like something doesn't match up -- particularly with the Org package: 1. Most modern Emacs have Org pre-installed. 2. Unfortunately, that Org is not up-to-date (24.3 has 7.9.3f). 3. Therefore, installing the latest Org package seems natural. The pitfall here is that you _must_ do the first install of the Org package from an Emacs that didn't load any part of the built-in Org. 4. However, this does not uninstall the built-in Org package. No, the built-in package unfortunately isn't really a package. It's still inextricably built-in the same way it ever was, just that it now additionally shows up in package manager as built-in package. 5. Packages are not initialized until after .emacs is run. You should add (package-initialize) to your .emacs, but read http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Package-Installation.html before doing that so you'll understand where to put it. 6. Therefore, any of the latest variables are not defined yet. 7. Therefore, setting a hook may not do what you think. 8. The documentation for Org suggests hooks (etc.) to set. 9. I've run into times when org-version was still 7.9.3f. Do you see where I'm heading? Does anyone else run into this problem? Or do most people ignore the Org package and install the latest from GitHub in a more manual process (a la Bernt Hansen's paper)? Do we need more concrete documentation on setting up the Org Package? See above. The package system in Emacs isn't really designed for something as big and complicated as Org and its interaction with built-in packages has room for improvement; but you can make it work, even for Org. Whether you want to install Org from Git is another story and you should mainly decide from whether you need to always run the very latest development version. If that decision rather falls to I always want the latest released version, then the ELPA package is a better choice, IMHO. Regards, Achim. -- +[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]+ Samples for the Waldorf Blofeld: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#BlofeldSamplesExtra
Re: [O] The Org Package
Achim Gratz strom...@nexgo.de writes: 1. Most modern Emacs have Org pre-installed. 2. Unfortunately, that Org is not up-to-date (24.3 has 7.9.3f). 3. Therefore, installing the latest Org package seems natural. The pitfall here is that you _must_ do the first install of the Org package from an Emacs that didn't load any part of the built-in Org. That's an interesting piece of information. I can't find it in (info (org) Installation). Just to make sure I understand it : I can imagine older macros being byte compiled into the newer org, is that the reason ? -- Nico.
Re: [O] The Org Package
Achim Gratz strom...@nexgo.de writes: David Masterson writes: Something doesn't seem right and I'm sure I'm missing some key in understanding how its supposed to work. What I see right now seems like something doesn't match up -- particularly with the Org package: 1. Most modern Emacs have Org pre-installed. 2. Unfortunately, that Org is not up-to-date (24.3 has 7.9.3f). 3. Therefore, installing the latest Org package seems natural. The pitfall here is that you _must_ do the first install of the Org package from an Emacs that didn't load any part of the built-in Org. What does this mean? Does this mean you expect people to build Emacs from scratch just to ensure they do not have Org built-in? -- David Masterson Programmer At Large
Re: [O] The Org Package
David Masterson dsmaster...@gmail.com writes: Achim Gratz strom...@nexgo.de writes: David Masterson writes: Something doesn't seem right and I'm sure I'm missing some key in understanding how its supposed to work. What I see right now seems like something doesn't match up -- particularly with the Org package: 1. Most modern Emacs have Org pre-installed. 2. Unfortunately, that Org is not up-to-date (24.3 has 7.9.3f). 3. Therefore, installing the latest Org package seems natural. The pitfall here is that you _must_ do the first install of the Org package from an Emacs that didn't load any part of the built-in Org. What does this mean? Does this mean you expect people to build Emacs from scratch just to ensure they do not have Org built-in? I believe it means the installation must be done from an Emacs instance that hasn't loaded any Org mode functions yet. You must make sure there are no =Org-mode= functions loaded while the update is done. For that, exit Emacs and then run Emacs without loading your =.emacs= (=Emacs -Q=). Remove the old =Org-mode= #+BEGIN_SRC sh rm -rf ~/.emacs.d/elpa/org-”Tab” #+END_SRC where =Tab= means press =Tab= to see and auto complete the old =Org-mode= directory you want to remove. Finally, update =Org-mode= (=M-x package-install RET org RET=) and restart Emacs as usual. See http://nickhigham.wordpress.com/2013/07/05/emacs-org-mode-version-8/ hth, Tom -- Thomas S. Dye http://www.tsdye.com
Re: [O] The Org Package
David Masterson dsmaster...@gmail.com writes: [ELPA's] minus is that it moves the package setup *somewhat* out of .emacs and into the after-init area. This point is recognized and addressed by el-get: https://github.com/dimitri/el-get
Re: [O] The Org Package
On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 11:10 PM, David Masterson dsmaster...@gmail.com wrote: John Hendy writes: On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:32 PM, David Masterson wrote: I still need more understanding of the Emacs packaging system. Something doesn't seem right and I'm sure I'm missing some key in understanding how its supposed to work. What I see right now seems like something doesn't match up -- particularly with the Org package: 1. Most modern Emacs have Org pre-installed. 2. Unfortunately, that Org is not up-to-date (24.3 has 7.9.3f). 3. Therefore, installing the latest Org package seems natural. 4. However, this does not uninstall the built-in Org package. 5. Packages are not initialized until after .emacs is run. 6. Therefore, any of the latest variables are not defined yet. 7. Therefore, setting a hook may not do what you think. 8. The documentation for Org suggests hooks (etc.) to set. 9. I've run into times when org-version was still 7.9.3f. Do you see where I'm heading? Does anyone else run into this problem? Or do most people ignore the Org package and install the latest from GitHub in a more manual process (a la Bernt Hansen's paper)? Do we need more concrete documentation on setting up the Org Package? I learned emacs /for/ Org-mode, so keep that in mind as I'm pretty ignorant of emacs in genera. I *think* that packages for emacs are sort of a recent thing, and since I was already using git, I've never bothered to switch my setup. I find git ridiculously easy and have never had a reason to do anything else. Basically, I'm used to your style here, but let it not be said that I didn't, at least, try to be more modern. ;-) Once ever: #+begin_src sh mkdir ~/.elisp/ cd ~/.elisp git clone [orgmode git path] org.git # I like adding the .git so I know it's a git repo cd org.git make clean make #+end_src How do you find the value of [orgmode git path]? Sorry, I was lazy and didn't take time to look it up. Org has documented this very well. It's right on the main page: - http://orgmode.org/ That is: ~$ git clone git://orgmode.org/org-mode.git It's also in the instructions just a bit down on Staying on the bleeding edge (Worg): - http://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#keeping-current-with-Org-mode-development That is: $ git clone git://orgmode.org/org-mode.git# standard repo $ git clone git://repo.or.cz/org-mode.git# alternate repo $ git clone http://orgmode.org/org-mode.git # if you can't use git:// (like me) $ git clone http://repo.or.cz/r/org-mode.git # alternate http Then put in config: #+begin_src .emacs (add-to-list 'load-path ~/.elisp/org.git/lisp/) (add-to-list 'load-path ~/.elisp/org.git/contrib/lisp) #+end_src Where does /lisp and /contrib/lisp come from? What do they contain? Not sure exactly what you mean... lisp/ and contrib/lisp/ are simply, from what I know, where all the .el files for any emacs thingy reside. You need to tell emacs about the contents of both of those. lisp/ contains the core Org stuff, and there are contributed functions in contrib/lisp that are being evaluated or for whatever reason just not incorporated into Org yet (I want to say that this might house things that people who haven't signed FSF legal documents reside, or things that just aren't quite ready yet). That's it. Anywhere between once a week and once every three months, I do: #+begin_src sh cd ~/.elisp/org.git git pull make clean make #+end_src Do you run into any problems where something is picked up out of the built-in Org because of overlapping requires? Not that I know of, but I never really got a definitive answer (at least that sunk in my head as the final verdict on this thread: - https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2013-09/msg00175.html Achim and I went back and forth a bit. My understanding from that time (and from just now re-skimming it) is that as long as `M-x org-version` shows what you'd expect (a git version) and you don't get any errors, you're [probably/almost certainly?] safe. My current output as an example: M-x org-version Org-mode version 8.2.5h (release_8.2.5h-881-g957177 @ /home/jwhendy/.elisp/org.git/lisp/) Is this more difficult than packages? What is the advantage of ELPA vs. this? I could see it if I had a lot of these sorts of things, but I really just use Org + ESS, so I'm not constantly updating/installing/removing emacs add-ons other than those two. It's not more difficult and you could probably easily expand on this for any number of packages by simply expanding your last shell to walk thru all the interesting packages and pull the latest version in. As far as I can see, ELPA's plus is the GUI for pulling in new versions of packages, but its minus is that it moves the package setup *somewhat* out of .emacs and into the after-init area. For instance, I'm installing org-toodledo which hasn't been packagized yet, so, when you (require 'org-toodledo) in your .emacs, the org
Re: [O] The Org Package
On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:32 PM, David Masterson dsmaster...@gmail.com wrote: Do you see where I'm heading? Yes. As stated above, Worg has nice instructions. My experience has been that once you start using org you end up wanting different lots of different packages, and some that are very up to date. I ended up using Cask. There are many options, and that is one of them, and I do like it. I just keep a Cask configuration file and that deals with obtaining and loading the right stuff. Grant Rettke | AAAS, ACM, AMA, COG, FSF, IEEE, Sigma Xi gret...@acm.org | http://www.wisdomandwonder.com/ “Wisdom begins in wonder.” --Socrates ((λ (x) (x x)) (λ (x) (x x))) “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” --Thompson
[O] The Org Package
I still need more understanding of the Emacs packaging system. Something doesn't seem right and I'm sure I'm missing some key in understanding how its supposed to work. What I see right now seems like something doesn't match up -- particularly with the Org package: 1. Most modern Emacs have Org pre-installed. 2. Unfortunately, that Org is not up-to-date (24.3 has 7.9.3f). 3. Therefore, installing the latest Org package seems natural. 4. However, this does not uninstall the built-in Org package. 5. Packages are not initialized until after .emacs is run. 6. Therefore, any of the latest variables are not defined yet. 7. Therefore, setting a hook may not do what you think. 8. The documentation for Org suggests hooks (etc.) to set. 9. I've run into times when org-version was still 7.9.3f. Do you see where I'm heading? Does anyone else run into this problem? Or do most people ignore the Org package and install the latest from GitHub in a more manual process (a la Bernt Hansen's paper)? Do we need more concrete documentation on setting up the Org Package? -- David Masterson
Re: [O] The Org Package
On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:32 PM, David Masterson dsmaster...@gmail.com wrote: I still need more understanding of the Emacs packaging system. Something doesn't seem right and I'm sure I'm missing some key in understanding how its supposed to work. What I see right now seems like something doesn't match up -- particularly with the Org package: 1. Most modern Emacs have Org pre-installed. 2. Unfortunately, that Org is not up-to-date (24.3 has 7.9.3f). 3. Therefore, installing the latest Org package seems natural. 4. However, this does not uninstall the built-in Org package. 5. Packages are not initialized until after .emacs is run. 6. Therefore, any of the latest variables are not defined yet. 7. Therefore, setting a hook may not do what you think. 8. The documentation for Org suggests hooks (etc.) to set. 9. I've run into times when org-version was still 7.9.3f. Do you see where I'm heading? Does anyone else run into this problem? Or do most people ignore the Org package and install the latest from GitHub in a more manual process (a la Bernt Hansen's paper)? Do we need more concrete documentation on setting up the Org Package? I learned emacs /for/ Org-mode, so keep that in mind as I'm pretty ignorant of emacs in genera. I *think* that packages for emacs are sort of a recent thing, and since I was already using git, I've never bothered to switch my setup. I find git ridiculously easy and have never had a reason to do anything else. Once ever: #+begin_src sh mkdir ~/.elisp/ cd ~/.elisp git clone [orgmode git path] org.git # I like adding the .git so I know it's a git repo cd org.git make clean make #+end_src Then put in config: #+begin_src .emacs (add-to-list 'load-path ~/.elisp/org.git/lisp/) (add-to-list 'load-path ~/.elisp/org.git/contrib/lisp) #+end_src That's it. Anywhere between once a week and once every three months, I do: #+begin_src sh cd ~/.elisp/org.git git pull make clean make #+end_src Is this more difficult than packages? What is the advantage of ELPA vs. this? I could see it if I had a lot of these sorts of things, but I really just use Org + ESS, so I'm not constantly updating/installing/removing emacs add-ons other than those two. John -- David Masterson
Re: [O] The Org Package
John Hendy writes: On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:32 PM, David Masterson wrote: I still need more understanding of the Emacs packaging system. Something doesn't seem right and I'm sure I'm missing some key in understanding how its supposed to work. What I see right now seems like something doesn't match up -- particularly with the Org package: 1. Most modern Emacs have Org pre-installed. 2. Unfortunately, that Org is not up-to-date (24.3 has 7.9.3f). 3. Therefore, installing the latest Org package seems natural. 4. However, this does not uninstall the built-in Org package. 5. Packages are not initialized until after .emacs is run. 6. Therefore, any of the latest variables are not defined yet. 7. Therefore, setting a hook may not do what you think. 8. The documentation for Org suggests hooks (etc.) to set. 9. I've run into times when org-version was still 7.9.3f. Do you see where I'm heading? Does anyone else run into this problem? Or do most people ignore the Org package and install the latest from GitHub in a more manual process (a la Bernt Hansen's paper)? Do we need more concrete documentation on setting up the Org Package? I learned emacs /for/ Org-mode, so keep that in mind as I'm pretty ignorant of emacs in genera. I *think* that packages for emacs are sort of a recent thing, and since I was already using git, I've never bothered to switch my setup. I find git ridiculously easy and have never had a reason to do anything else. Basically, I'm used to your style here, but let it not be said that I didn't, at least, try to be more modern. ;-) Once ever: #+begin_src sh mkdir ~/.elisp/ cd ~/.elisp git clone [orgmode git path] org.git # I like adding the .git so I know it's a git repo cd org.git make clean make #+end_src How do you find the value of [orgmode git path]? Then put in config: #+begin_src .emacs (add-to-list 'load-path ~/.elisp/org.git/lisp/) (add-to-list 'load-path ~/.elisp/org.git/contrib/lisp) #+end_src Where does /lisp and /contrib/lisp come from? What do they contain? That's it. Anywhere between once a week and once every three months, I do: #+begin_src sh cd ~/.elisp/org.git git pull make clean make #+end_src Do you run into any problems where something is picked up out of the built-in Org because of overlapping requires? Is this more difficult than packages? What is the advantage of ELPA vs. this? I could see it if I had a lot of these sorts of things, but I really just use Org + ESS, so I'm not constantly updating/installing/removing emacs add-ons other than those two. It's not more difficult and you could probably easily expand on this for any number of packages by simply expanding your last shell to walk thru all the interesting packages and pull the latest version in. As far as I can see, ELPA's plus is the GUI for pulling in new versions of packages, but its minus is that it moves the package setup *somewhat* out of .emacs and into the after-init area. For instance, I'm installing org-toodledo which hasn't been packagized yet, so, when you (require 'org-toodledo) in your .emacs, the org package is also pulled in. However, if you've updated the org package via ELPA, the wrong version of org will be pulled in *unless* you (package-initialize) in your .emacs. If you follow the basic rules, things work, but the rules aren't explicitly documented, so it can be confusing. -- David Masterson
[O] no org package in package mgr
No Org Package in Package manager at http://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#installing-via-elpa work around In the meanwhile, you can manually download the tarball and install it. Refer this FAQ entry for further information. doesn't work either, I get Can't read whole file GNU Emacs 23.3.1 (powerpc-apple-darwin, NS apple-appkit-1038.35) of 2011-03-10 on black.porkrind.org
Re: [O] no org package in package mgr
Wallemacq Jean jean.wallem...@skynet.be writes: No Org Package in Package manager If I look at http://elpa.gnu.org/packages/, I do see org-20110515.tar. I also see that org package is listed correctly when I do M-x list-packages. Have you customized package-archives variable correctly? It *must* have http://elpa.gnu.org/packages/ as one of the archives. Make sure that you are using the package.el that ships with default emacs and *not* the one that comes from tromey.com. Since you are using emacs-23 you would have better luck with package.el referenced in http://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#installing-elpa at http://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#installing-via-elpa work around In the meanwhile, you can manually download the tarball and install it. Refer this FAQ entry for further information. doesn't work either, I get Can't read whole file My suspicion is that you wouldn't need to get this step at all. Things have improved since I created that FAQ entry. Jambunathan K.
