Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2010-01-03 Thread Carsten Dominik

Hi everyone,

after contemplating the \pnote proposal for beamer notes, I don't
think that this is, in the end, the right solution.

Can't we just use headings with a TODO keyword BNOTE or with property  
BNOTE

or so as the sources of notes?

Or, even simpler, Or we could use a special value note
in the the BEAMER_env property to mark notes.  This would be easy to  
turn

on with the special editing code we already have, would automatically
be tracked by a B_note tag and in this way stay visible.

Using marked nodes would avoid choosing a specific level for
such notes, and give the biggest flexibility.

If we do this, then the following problem arises:  An outline
node always has a headline and content.  What should be do
with the headline?  Should be throw it away?  Or just make it
part of the note text?  Maybe that would make the most sense.

Input is again welcome!

- Carsten

On Dec 20, 2009, at 4:08 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:



I also liked this idea. Since beamer does not track where the \note  
command is
used inside the frame and just puts every note from that frame in  
the next
notes slide, then there is no loss if org-mode put several \note  
commands in
the end of the frame environment when exporting. Therefore, a  
headline below the

frame headline seems to be a good approach.

Also, if the beamer notes are not desired when exporting to other  
formats one
could add a tag to the notes headline and use the already  
available feature of

not exporting headlines with a given tag.

- Darlan Cavalcante Moreira

At Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:33:14 -1000,
Thomas S. Dye t...@tsdye.com wrote:


Hi Daniel,

On Dec 18, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Daniel Martins wrote:


\pnote could be an option

Another idea is to reserve the lowest level to notes

* section
** subsection
*** frame
etc


** notes

(I don't know how many *'s are needed)

maybe we can set a number / variable

like

org-beamer-frame-level

we could create

org-beamer-notes-level

Daniel


2009/12/18 Nick Dokos nicholas.do...@hp.com:

Adam Spiers orgm...@adamspiers.org wrote:


On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:49:23PM -0300, Darlan Cavalcante
Moreira wrote:

In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be in a
presentation
they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful in
some cases. If
org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months from
now someone
would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a standard
footnote when
exporting to beamer.


I agree - unfortunately there are genuinely sensible uses of
footnotes
in presentations.  For example, citation of sources for  
quotations,

data etc. is ideally accomplished by footnotes: they are not used
during the presentation itself, but by distributing paper and/or
electronic copies after the talk, footnotes provide essential
reference data for perusal by the audience at a later date.


I think that's an argument *for* Eric's idea (assuming that the
handout
includes notes - that's my practice, but maybe not everybody does
that,
although they *should* :-) ).

In general, I think slides should be very simple: single-level  
lists,

single idea per slide, no footnotes - but I know that generalities
like
that are just guidelines: meant to be broken, given a good enough
cause.


Imagine a slide showing the results of a benchmark, claiming X is
much faster than Y!  You might want to talk briefly about how the
results were obtained, and about the impact of the results, but  
you

would also need to be able to tell the audience they could
independently verify the results by obtaining a copy of the slides
and
visiting the URL contained in the footnote - especially if the
results
are controversial!  In this case, it would not matter that the URL
was
too small to be legible from the back of the room.




How does inverting Eric's idea sound: invent a new kind of  
footnote,

let's call it, say, a pnote, which is treated exactly like a
footnote in
all exports *except* beamer. In beamer, footnotes end up in the  
frame

and pnotes end up in the notes.

Not sure whether the implementation would be as simple as this
makes it
sound, but who knows?[1]

Thanks,
Nick

[1] Well, OK: Carsten knows...



FWIW, I like this idea.  I think it tracks the mapping between beamer
and LaTeX very well.

In my experience, beamer slide shows are an aid in the spoken
presentation of a LaTeX article.

Beamer does a good job of mapping the higher level LaTeX sectioning
commands, with some themes that automatically display down to
subsection.  To my mind, frames in beamer capture lower-level
structure (e.g. subsubsection, paragraph, subparagraph) in their
(often over-used) bulleted lists, and (more appropriately) the
photographs, diagrams, maps etc. that are inserted as figures in the
LaTeX article.  As others on the list have noted, LaTeX footnotes  
also

map fairly directly to beamer footnotes.

This leaves most of the text of the article, which from my  
perspective

maps to 

Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2010-01-03 Thread Russell Adams
Carsten,

I've seen properties and sub-headlines proposed, but what about
something like this, using quoting style to separate the notes from
the slide?

** Slide

 - Slide content
 - Slide content

#+BEGIN_BEAMER_NOTE
Here are the class notes for this slide...

#+END_BEAMER_NOTE

Maybe I'm coming in on the debate late...

Thanks.


On Sun, Jan 03, 2010 at 08:07:29PM +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
 Hi everyone,

 after contemplating the \pnote proposal for beamer notes, I don't
 think that this is, in the end, the right solution.

 Can't we just use headings with a TODO keyword BNOTE or with property  
 BNOTE
 or so as the sources of notes?

 Or, even simpler, Or we could use a special value note
 in the the BEAMER_env property to mark notes.  This would be easy to  
 turn
 on with the special editing code we already have, would automatically
 be tracked by a B_note tag and in this way stay visible.

 Using marked nodes would avoid choosing a specific level for
 such notes, and give the biggest flexibility.

 If we do this, then the following problem arises:  An outline
 node always has a headline and content.  What should be do
 with the headline?  Should be throw it away?  Or just make it
 part of the note text?  Maybe that would make the most sense.

 Input is again welcome!

 - Carsten

 On Dec 20, 2009, at 4:08 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:


 I also liked this idea. Since beamer does not track where the \note  
 command is
 used inside the frame and just puts every note from that frame in the 
 next
 notes slide, then there is no loss if org-mode put several \note  
 commands in
 the end of the frame environment when exporting. Therefore, a headline 
 below the
 frame headline seems to be a good approach.

 Also, if the beamer notes are not desired when exporting to other  
 formats one
 could add a tag to the notes headline and use the already available 
 feature of
 not exporting headlines with a given tag.

 - Darlan Cavalcante Moreira

 At Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:33:14 -1000,
 Thomas S. Dye t...@tsdye.com wrote:

 Hi Daniel,

 On Dec 18, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Daniel Martins wrote:

 \pnote could be an option

 Another idea is to reserve the lowest level to notes

 * section
 ** subsection
 *** frame
 etc


 ** notes

 (I don't know how many *'s are needed)

 maybe we can set a number / variable

 like

 org-beamer-frame-level

 we could create

 org-beamer-notes-level

 Daniel


 2009/12/18 Nick Dokos nicholas.do...@hp.com:
 Adam Spiers orgm...@adamspiers.org wrote:

 On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:49:23PM -0300, Darlan Cavalcante
 Moreira wrote:
 In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be in a
 presentation
 they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful in
 some cases. If
 org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months from
 now someone
 would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a standard
 footnote when
 exporting to beamer.

 I agree - unfortunately there are genuinely sensible uses of
 footnotes
 in presentations.  For example, citation of sources for  
 quotations,
 data etc. is ideally accomplished by footnotes: they are not used
 during the presentation itself, but by distributing paper and/or
 electronic copies after the talk, footnotes provide essential
 reference data for perusal by the audience at a later date.

 I think that's an argument *for* Eric's idea (assuming that the
 handout
 includes notes - that's my practice, but maybe not everybody does
 that,
 although they *should* :-) ).

 In general, I think slides should be very simple: single-level  
 lists,
 single idea per slide, no footnotes - but I know that generalities
 like
 that are just guidelines: meant to be broken, given a good enough
 cause.

 Imagine a slide showing the results of a benchmark, claiming X is
 much faster than Y!  You might want to talk briefly about how the
 results were obtained, and about the impact of the results, but 
 you
 would also need to be able to tell the audience they could
 independently verify the results by obtaining a copy of the slides
 and
 visiting the URL contained in the footnote - especially if the
 results
 are controversial!  In this case, it would not matter that the URL
 was
 too small to be legible from the back of the room.



 How does inverting Eric's idea sound: invent a new kind of  
 footnote,
 let's call it, say, a pnote, which is treated exactly like a
 footnote in
 all exports *except* beamer. In beamer, footnotes end up in the  
 frame
 and pnotes end up in the notes.

 Not sure whether the implementation would be as simple as this
 makes it
 sound, but who knows?[1]

 Thanks,
 Nick

 [1] Well, OK: Carsten knows...


 FWIW, I like this idea.  I think it tracks the mapping between beamer
 and LaTeX very well.

 In my experience, beamer slide shows are an aid in the spoken
 presentation of a LaTeX article.

 Beamer does a good job of mapping the higher level LaTeX sectioning
 commands, with some themes that 

Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-21 Thread Thomas S. Dye

Aloha Carsten,

I've had a chance to look at your first draft of beamer support.   
You've done a terrific job.  So much of the draft is right that it  
helps to focus thoughts on the parts that are candidates for  
discussion and possible change.


Along those lines, I don't think using headlines for  
\begin{columns} ... \end{columns} works very well.  I think headlines  
should be reserved for sectioning, frames, elements of frames (blocks  
and friends), and notes.  Once a headline level has been designated  
for frames (n), then headline n+1 becomes an element of the frame, and  
headline n+2 becomes notes for the frame (following Daniel Martins'  
lead).


To my mind, columns are attributes of a frame, so they might better be  
handled as a property of the frame.  Frame elements are specifically  
assigned to a column, or not, using a property.


Roughly, this would yield the following syntax, which ought to export  
fairly cleanly with the HTML and LaTeX exporters.


#+BEAMER_FRAME_LEVEL 2

* Section 1
** Frame 1
:PROPERTIES:
:FRAME_COLS: 2
:END:
*** Element 1   :block:
:PROPERTIES:
:IN_COL: 1
:END:
- Item 1
- Item 2
 Notes about Element 1 block
- Keyed to Item 1
- Keyed to Item 2
*** Element 2   :block:
:PROPERTIES:
:IN_COL: 2
:END:
- Item 3
- Item 4
*** Element 3
	This element spans two columns.  The headline doesn't appear on the  
slide.
*** Element 4  (headline doesn't appear on the slide because not a  
block or friend)

:PROPERTIES:
:IN_COL: 1
:END:
- Item 5
- Item 6
** Frame 2
 *** Element 1
- Item 1
- Item 2
   Notes
- Note for item 1
- Note for item 2

Thanks again for drafting what should be a very useful addition to the  
already insanely useful org-mode.


HTH,
Tom

On Dec 10, 2009, at 10:05 PM, Carsten Dominik wrote:


Hi everyone,

the current state of affairs in beamer support is now in
the master branch of the git repo.

My little draft documentation is now at

  http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-beamer.php

But it is really limited and I am hoping very much that someone
will turn this into something useful!

- Carsten


On Dec 11, 2009, at 12:49 AM, Mark Elston wrote:


Nick Dokos wrote:
IIUC, another way to go (possibly much simpler than org-babel[1])  
is to use

selective export:
   #+EXPORT_SELECT_TAGS:   Tags that select a tree for export
   #+EXPORT_EXCLUDE_TAGS:  Tags that exclude a tree from export
Mark the handout and notes sections with different tags and export
the document twice, once with the handout tag selected and once
with the notes tag selected.


This sounds like it would work as well, though it probably results
in a very different org-file organization to make it work.  I will
have to play around with the various options to see what works best
for me.

Thanks.


HTH,
Nick
[1] NB: org-babel is another area that I know very little about, but
hope to learn more about during vacation (although by this time, the
todo list for vacation has expanded sufficiently to occupy several
lifetimes...)


Hah!  I know exactly what you mean...

Mark


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Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
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- Carsten





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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-21 Thread Carsten Dominik

Hi Thomas,


On Dec 21, 2009, at 4:50 PM, Thomas S. Dye wrote:


Aloha Carsten,

I've had a chance to look at your first draft of beamer support.   
You've done a terrific job.  So much of the draft is right that it  
helps to focus thoughts on the parts that are candidates for  
discussion and possible change.


Thanks for the very positive feedback!



Along those lines, I don't think using headlines for  
\begin{columns} ... \end{columns} works very well.  I think  
headlines should be reserved for sectioning, frames, elements of  
frames (blocks and friends), and notes.  Once a headline level has  
been designated for frames (n), then headline n+1 becomes an element  
of the frame, and headline n+2 becomes notes for the frame  
(following Daniel Martins' lead).


Yes, this is another possibility in the notes-contest - I consider
that discussion as still running and not settled.



To my mind, columns are attributes of a frame, so they might better  
be handled as a property of the frame.  Frame elements are  
specifically assigned to a column, or not, using a property.


You might or might not have noticed that the current
implementation is already one iteration further than the
first draft, and I have already followed a path which does
not encourage the use of special levels for the columns
environment.  Instead, it marks elements that *start* a new column.

You proposal is different, but has the disadvantage that each element
has to be labeled as being part of a column.  What is the advantage
of this approach?  Maybe that it is possible to have an element that is
*after* the columns, spanning again the whole frame, before another
element starts a new columns environment.

I can see that this
is desirable, but maybe it would be better to mark column starts
as I am doing now, and then maybe mar an element that is outside
of the column.  The reason why this approach seems (to me!) better is
that it is the shorter path from an outline to frames with columns.
So on  a slide with 10 items, you'd need to mark all ten, while I
need to mark only two in order to distribute the items over two
columns.

- Carsten

P.S. I am also not entirely sure if I understand how exactly
your setup below should look in LaTeX - maybe you can also show
the desired LaTeX output?



Roughly, this would yield the following syntax, which ought to  
export fairly cleanly with the HTML and LaTeX exporters.


#+BEAMER_FRAME_LEVEL 2

* Section 1
** Frame 1
:PROPERTIES:
:FRAME_COLS: 2
:END:
*** Element 1   :block:
:PROPERTIES:
:IN_COL: 1
:END:
- Item 1
- Item 2
 Notes about Element 1 block
- Keyed to Item 1
- Keyed to Item 2
*** Element 2   :block:
:PROPERTIES:
:IN_COL: 2
:END:
- Item 3
- Item 4
*** Element 3
	This element spans two columns.  The headline doesn't appear on the  
slide.
*** Element 4  (headline doesn't appear on the slide because not a  
block or friend)

:PROPERTIES:
:IN_COL: 1
:END:
- Item 5
- Item 6
** Frame 2
*** Element 1
- Item 1
- Item 2
  Notes
- Note for item 1
- Note for item 2

Thanks again for drafting what should be a very useful addition to  
the already insanely useful org-mode.


HTH,
Tom

On Dec 10, 2009, at 10:05 PM, Carsten Dominik wrote:


Hi everyone,

the current state of affairs in beamer support is now in
the master branch of the git repo.

My little draft documentation is now at

 http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-beamer.php

But it is really limited and I am hoping very much that someone
will turn this into something useful!

- Carsten


On Dec 11, 2009, at 12:49 AM, Mark Elston wrote:


Nick Dokos wrote:
IIUC, another way to go (possibly much simpler than org-babel[1])  
is to use

selective export:
  #+EXPORT_SELECT_TAGS:   Tags that select a tree for export
  #+EXPORT_EXCLUDE_TAGS:  Tags that exclude a tree from export
Mark the handout and notes sections with different tags and export
the document twice, once with the handout tag selected and once
with the notes tag selected.


This sounds like it would work as well, though it probably results
in a very different org-file organization to make it work.  I will
have to play around with the various options to see what works best
for me.

Thanks.


HTH,
Nick
[1] NB: org-babel is another area that I know very little about,  
but
hope to learn more about during vacation (although by this time,  
the

todo list for vacation has expanded sufficiently to occupy several
lifetimes...)


Hah!  I know exactly what you mean...

Mark


___
Emacs-orgmode mailing list
Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode


- Carsten





___
Emacs-orgmode mailing list
Please use `Reply All' to 

Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-21 Thread Thomas S. Dye

Hi Carsten,

On Dec 21, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Carsten Dominik wrote:
...
I've had a chance to look at your first draft of beamer support.   
You've done a terrific job.  So much of the draft is right that it  
helps to focus thoughts on the parts that are candidates for  
discussion and possible change.


Thanks for the very positive feedback!


You're welcome.  You certainly deserve it!



Along those lines, I don't think using headlines for  
\begin{columns} ... \end{columns} works very well.  I think  
headlines should be reserved for sectioning, frames, elements of  
frames (blocks and friends), and notes.  Once a headline level has  
been designated for frames (n), then headline n+1 becomes an  
element of the frame, and headline n+2 becomes notes for the frame  
(following Daniel Martins' lead).


Yes, this is another possibility in the notes-contest - I consider
that discussion as still running and not settled.





To my mind, columns are attributes of a frame, so they might better  
be handled as a property of the frame.  Frame elements are  
specifically assigned to a column, or not, using a property.


You might or might not have noticed that the current
implementation is already one iteration further than the
first draft, and I have already followed a path which does
not encourage the use of special levels for the columns
environment.  Instead, it marks elements that *start* a new column.


Yes, I did see this but was concerned about not being able to close  
the columns environment to insert full-width material, a limitation  
noted in the draft manual.



You proposal is different, but has the disadvantage that each element
has to be labeled as being part of a column.  What is the advantage
of this approach?  Maybe that it is possible to have an element that  
is

*after* the columns, spanning again the whole frame, before another
element starts a new columns environment.


Yes, this is what I was hoping to achieve.


I can see that this
is desirable, but maybe it would be better to mark column starts
as I am doing now, and then maybe mar an element that is outside
of the column.


If it is possible to mark an element that closes an open columns  
environment, leaving the frame open for elements that fill the full  
width, and possibly for a new columns environment, then your approach  
to columns without additional outline structure would achieve what I  
was trying to get at.



The reason why this approach seems (to me!) better is
that it is the shorter path from an outline to frames with columns.
So on  a slide with 10 items, you'd need to mark all ten, while I
need to mark only two in order to distribute the items over two
columns.


Minimizing the number of keystrokes is important, especially among org- 
mode people :)  Your approach, modified as we've discussed above, has  
other advantages, too, including more flexibility in the layout.


I'm pleased to learn that the limitation about full width elements  
after columns noted in the draft manual can be overcome, and look  
forward to working with the next draft.


Thanks again for all that you do.

Tom


- Carsten

P.S. I am also not entirely sure if I understand how exactly
your setup below should look in LaTeX - maybe you can also show
the desired LaTeX output?



Roughly, this would yield the following syntax, which ought to  
export fairly cleanly with the HTML and LaTeX exporters.


#+BEAMER_FRAME_LEVEL 2

* Section 1
** Frame 1
:PROPERTIES:
:FRAME_COLS: 2
:END:
*** Element 1   :block:
:PROPERTIES:
:IN_COL: 1
:END:
- Item 1
- Item 2
 Notes about Element 1 block
- Keyed to Item 1
- Keyed to Item 2
*** Element 2   :block:
:PROPERTIES:
:IN_COL: 2
:END:
- Item 3
- Item 4
*** Element 3
	This element spans two columns.  The headline doesn't appear on  
the slide.
*** Element 4  (headline doesn't appear on the slide because not a  
block or friend)

:PROPERTIES:
:IN_COL: 1
:END:
- Item 5
- Item 6
** Frame 2
*** Element 1
- Item 1
- Item 2
 Notes
- Note for item 1
- Note for item 2

Thanks again for drafting what should be a very useful addition to  
the already insanely useful org-mode.


HTH,
Tom

On Dec 10, 2009, at 10:05 PM, Carsten Dominik wrote:


Hi everyone,

the current state of affairs in beamer support is now in
the master branch of the git repo.

My little draft documentation is now at

http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-beamer.php

But it is really limited and I am hoping very much that someone
will turn this into something useful!

- Carsten


On Dec 11, 2009, at 12:49 AM, Mark Elston wrote:


Nick Dokos wrote:
IIUC, another way to go (possibly much simpler than org- 
babel[1]) is to use

selective export:
 #+EXPORT_SELECT_TAGS:   Tags that select a tree for export
 #+EXPORT_EXCLUDE_TAGS:  Tags that exclude a tree from 

Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-20 Thread Darlan Cavalcante Moreira

I also liked this idea. Since beamer does not track where the \note command is
used inside the frame and just puts every note from that frame in the next
notes slide, then there is no loss if org-mode put several \note commands in
the end of the frame environment when exporting. Therefore, a headline below the
frame headline seems to be a good approach.

Also, if the beamer notes are not desired when exporting to other formats one
could add a tag to the notes headline and use the already available feature of
not exporting headlines with a given tag.

- Darlan Cavalcante Moreira

At Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:33:14 -1000,
Thomas S. Dye t...@tsdye.com wrote:
 
 Hi Daniel,
 
 On Dec 18, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Daniel Martins wrote:
 
  \pnote could be an option
 
  Another idea is to reserve the lowest level to notes
 
  * section
  ** subsection
  *** frame
  etc
 
 
  ** notes
 
  (I don't know how many *'s are needed)
 
  maybe we can set a number / variable
 
  like
 
  org-beamer-frame-level
 
  we could create
 
  org-beamer-notes-level
 
  Daniel
 
 
  2009/12/18 Nick Dokos nicholas.do...@hp.com:
  Adam Spiers orgm...@adamspiers.org wrote:
 
  On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:49:23PM -0300, Darlan Cavalcante  
  Moreira wrote:
  In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be in a  
  presentation
  they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful in  
  some cases. If
  org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months from  
  now someone
  would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a standard  
  footnote when
  exporting to beamer.
 
  I agree - unfortunately there are genuinely sensible uses of  
  footnotes
  in presentations.  For example, citation of sources for quotations,
  data etc. is ideally accomplished by footnotes: they are not used
  during the presentation itself, but by distributing paper and/or
  electronic copies after the talk, footnotes provide essential
  reference data for perusal by the audience at a later date.
 
  I think that's an argument *for* Eric's idea (assuming that the  
  handout
  includes notes - that's my practice, but maybe not everybody does  
  that,
  although they *should* :-) ).
 
  In general, I think slides should be very simple: single-level lists,
  single idea per slide, no footnotes - but I know that generalities  
  like
  that are just guidelines: meant to be broken, given a good enough  
  cause.
 
  Imagine a slide showing the results of a benchmark, claiming X is
  much faster than Y!  You might want to talk briefly about how the
  results were obtained, and about the impact of the results, but you
  would also need to be able to tell the audience they could
  independently verify the results by obtaining a copy of the slides  
  and
  visiting the URL contained in the footnote - especially if the  
  results
  are controversial!  In this case, it would not matter that the URL  
  was
  too small to be legible from the back of the room.
 
 
 
  How does inverting Eric's idea sound: invent a new kind of footnote,
  let's call it, say, a pnote, which is treated exactly like a  
  footnote in
  all exports *except* beamer. In beamer, footnotes end up in the frame
  and pnotes end up in the notes.
 
  Not sure whether the implementation would be as simple as this  
  makes it
  sound, but who knows?[1]
 
  Thanks,
  Nick
 
  [1] Well, OK: Carsten knows...
 
 
 FWIW, I like this idea.  I think it tracks the mapping between beamer  
 and LaTeX very well.
 
 In my experience, beamer slide shows are an aid in the spoken  
 presentation of a LaTeX article.
 
 Beamer does a good job of mapping the higher level LaTeX sectioning  
 commands, with some themes that automatically display down to  
 subsection.  To my mind, frames in beamer capture lower-level  
 structure (e.g. subsubsection, paragraph, subparagraph) in their  
 (often over-used) bulleted lists, and (more appropriately) the  
 photographs, diagrams, maps etc. that are inserted as figures in the  
 LaTeX article.  As others on the list have noted, LaTeX footnotes also  
 map fairly directly to beamer footnotes.
 
 This leaves most of the text of the article, which from my perspective  
 maps to beamer notes.  Marking off notes with the headline below the  
 last one that deals with frames and their paraphernalia seems natural  
 to me.  The typical org-mode file that exports to LaTeX will have big  
 chunks that transfer very readily to the notes sections of a beamer  
 presentation.
 
 I don't know whether the idea makes sense from the point of view of  
 implementation, though, because I can't really read the org-mode Lisp  
 code owing to my own illiteracy.
 
 All the best,
 Tom
 
 
 
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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-19 Thread Thomas S. Dye

Hi Daniel,

On Dec 18, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Daniel Martins wrote:


\pnote could be an option

Another idea is to reserve the lowest level to notes

* section
** subsection
*** frame
etc


** notes

(I don't know how many *'s are needed)

maybe we can set a number / variable

like

org-beamer-frame-level

we could create

org-beamer-notes-level

Daniel


2009/12/18 Nick Dokos nicholas.do...@hp.com:

Adam Spiers orgm...@adamspiers.org wrote:

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:49:23PM -0300, Darlan Cavalcante  
Moreira wrote:
In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be in a  
presentation
they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful in  
some cases. If
org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months from  
now someone
would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a standard  
footnote when

exporting to beamer.


I agree - unfortunately there are genuinely sensible uses of  
footnotes

in presentations.  For example, citation of sources for quotations,
data etc. is ideally accomplished by footnotes: they are not used
during the presentation itself, but by distributing paper and/or
electronic copies after the talk, footnotes provide essential
reference data for perusal by the audience at a later date.

I think that's an argument *for* Eric's idea (assuming that the  
handout
includes notes - that's my practice, but maybe not everybody does  
that,

although they *should* :-) ).

In general, I think slides should be very simple: single-level lists,
single idea per slide, no footnotes - but I know that generalities  
like
that are just guidelines: meant to be broken, given a good enough  
cause.



Imagine a slide showing the results of a benchmark, claiming X is
much faster than Y!  You might want to talk briefly about how the
results were obtained, and about the impact of the results, but you
would also need to be able to tell the audience they could
independently verify the results by obtaining a copy of the slides  
and
visiting the URL contained in the footnote - especially if the  
results
are controversial!  In this case, it would not matter that the URL  
was

too small to be legible from the back of the room.




How does inverting Eric's idea sound: invent a new kind of footnote,
let's call it, say, a pnote, which is treated exactly like a  
footnote in

all exports *except* beamer. In beamer, footnotes end up in the frame
and pnotes end up in the notes.

Not sure whether the implementation would be as simple as this  
makes it

sound, but who knows?[1]

Thanks,
Nick

[1] Well, OK: Carsten knows...



FWIW, I like this idea.  I think it tracks the mapping between beamer  
and LaTeX very well.


In my experience, beamer slide shows are an aid in the spoken  
presentation of a LaTeX article.


Beamer does a good job of mapping the higher level LaTeX sectioning  
commands, with some themes that automatically display down to  
subsection.  To my mind, frames in beamer capture lower-level  
structure (e.g. subsubsection, paragraph, subparagraph) in their  
(often over-used) bulleted lists, and (more appropriately) the  
photographs, diagrams, maps etc. that are inserted as figures in the  
LaTeX article.  As others on the list have noted, LaTeX footnotes also  
map fairly directly to beamer footnotes.


This leaves most of the text of the article, which from my perspective  
maps to beamer notes.  Marking off notes with the headline below the  
last one that deals with frames and their paraphernalia seems natural  
to me.  The typical org-mode file that exports to LaTeX will have big  
chunks that transfer very readily to the notes sections of a beamer  
presentation.


I don't know whether the idea makes sense from the point of view of  
implementation, though, because I can't really read the org-mode Lisp  
code owing to my own illiteracy.


All the best,
Tom



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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-18 Thread Adam Spiers
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:49:23PM -0300, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
 In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be in a presentation
 they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful in some cases. If
 org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months from now someone
 would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a standard footnote when
 exporting to beamer.

I agree - unfortunately there are genuinely sensible uses of footnotes
in presentations.  For example, citation of sources for quotations,
data etc. is ideally accomplished by footnotes: they are not used
during the presentation itself, but by distributing paper and/or
electronic copies after the talk, footnotes provide essential
reference data for perusal by the audience at a later date.

Imagine a slide showing the results of a benchmark, claiming X is
much faster than Y!  You might want to talk briefly about how the
results were obtained, and about the impact of the results, but you
would also need to be able to tell the audience they could
independently verify the results by obtaining a copy of the slides and
visiting the URL contained in the footnote - especially if the results
are controversial!  In this case, it would not matter that the URL was
too small to be legible from the back of the room.


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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-18 Thread Nick Dokos
Adam Spiers orgm...@adamspiers.org wrote:

 On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:49:23PM -0300, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
  In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be in a 
  presentation
  they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful in some cases. 
  If
  org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months from now someone
  would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a standard footnote 
  when
  exporting to beamer.
 
 I agree - unfortunately there are genuinely sensible uses of footnotes
 in presentations.  For example, citation of sources for quotations,
 data etc. is ideally accomplished by footnotes: they are not used
 during the presentation itself, but by distributing paper and/or
 electronic copies after the talk, footnotes provide essential
 reference data for perusal by the audience at a later date.
 
I think that's an argument *for* Eric's idea (assuming that the handout
includes notes - that's my practice, but maybe not everybody does that,
although they *should* :-) ).

In general, I think slides should be very simple: single-level lists,
single idea per slide, no footnotes - but I know that generalities like
that are just guidelines: meant to be broken, given a good enough cause.

 Imagine a slide showing the results of a benchmark, claiming X is
 much faster than Y!  You might want to talk briefly about how the
 results were obtained, and about the impact of the results, but you
 would also need to be able to tell the audience they could
 independently verify the results by obtaining a copy of the slides and
 visiting the URL contained in the footnote - especially if the results
 are controversial!  In this case, it would not matter that the URL was
 too small to be legible from the back of the room.
 
 

How does inverting Eric's idea sound: invent a new kind of footnote,
let's call it, say, a pnote, which is treated exactly like a footnote in
all exports *except* beamer. In beamer, footnotes end up in the frame
and pnotes end up in the notes.

Not sure whether the implementation would be as simple as this makes it
sound, but who knows?[1]

Thanks,
Nick

[1] Well, OK: Carsten knows...




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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-18 Thread Daniel Martins
\pnote could be an option

Another idea is to reserve the lowest level to notes

* section
** subsection
*** frame
etc


** notes

(I don't know how many *'s are needed)

maybe we can set a number / variable

like

org-beamer-frame-level

we could create

org-beamer-notes-level

Daniel


2009/12/18 Nick Dokos nicholas.do...@hp.com:
 Adam Spiers orgm...@adamspiers.org wrote:

 On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:49:23PM -0300, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
  In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be in a 
  presentation
  they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful in some cases. 
  If
  org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months from now someone
  would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a standard footnote 
  when
  exporting to beamer.

 I agree - unfortunately there are genuinely sensible uses of footnotes
 in presentations.  For example, citation of sources for quotations,
 data etc. is ideally accomplished by footnotes: they are not used
 during the presentation itself, but by distributing paper and/or
 electronic copies after the talk, footnotes provide essential
 reference data for perusal by the audience at a later date.

 I think that's an argument *for* Eric's idea (assuming that the handout
 includes notes - that's my practice, but maybe not everybody does that,
 although they *should* :-) ).

 In general, I think slides should be very simple: single-level lists,
 single idea per slide, no footnotes - but I know that generalities like
 that are just guidelines: meant to be broken, given a good enough cause.

 Imagine a slide showing the results of a benchmark, claiming X is
 much faster than Y!  You might want to talk briefly about how the
 results were obtained, and about the impact of the results, but you
 would also need to be able to tell the audience they could
 independently verify the results by obtaining a copy of the slides and
 visiting the URL contained in the footnote - especially if the results
 are controversial!  In this case, it would not matter that the URL was
 too small to be legible from the back of the room.



 How does inverting Eric's idea sound: invent a new kind of footnote,
 let's call it, say, a pnote, which is treated exactly like a footnote in
 all exports *except* beamer. In beamer, footnotes end up in the frame
 and pnotes end up in the notes.

 Not sure whether the implementation would be as simple as this makes it
 sound, but who knows?[1]

 Thanks,
 Nick

 [1] Well, OK: Carsten knows...




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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-15 Thread Eric S Fraga
At Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:09:33 +0100,
Carsten Dominik wrote:
 

[...]

 One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
 for other export.

Carsten,

I wonder if simply turning this on its head wouldn't be a good
solution?  By this I mean to use org-mode footnotes to represent
beamer notes (at least in my view footnotes make no sense in
presentations).  In export, footnotes are translated to notes for
beamer but are treated as usual for all other export targets.

A thought...


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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-15 Thread Daniel Martins
Good idea Eric (footnotes - \notes)

The only minor problem is number of lines per footnote/note.

When I make notes on Bemaer in general my notes have more than one line.

AFAIK footnotes in org are single lines or you have to separate them
with \par which is not so good.

Daniel

2009/12/15 Eric S Fraga ucec...@ucl.ac.uk:
 At Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:09:33 +0100,
 Carsten Dominik wrote:


 [...]

 One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
 for other export.

 Carsten,

 I wonder if simply turning this on its head wouldn't be a good
 solution?  By this I mean to use org-mode footnotes to represent
 beamer notes (at least in my view footnotes make no sense in
 presentations).  In export, footnotes are translated to notes for
 beamer but are treated as usual for all other export targets.

 A thought...


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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-15 Thread Darlan Cavalcante Moreira

I also thought about suggesting this approach, but the problem is that footnotes
and beamer notes are really two different things. Beamer notes can be anything
such as tables, figures, several lines of text (with itemize), display
equations, etc.. At least for me, these examples of beamer notes are common and
if org-mode used standard footnotes as the way to enter notes in beamer then I
wouldn't be able to export to standard latex most of the times.

In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be in a presentation
they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful in some cases. If
org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months from now someone
would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a standard footnote when
exporting to beamer.

- Darlan Cavalcante


At Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:07:45 -0200,
Daniel Martins daniel...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Good idea Eric (footnotes - \notes)
 
 The only minor problem is number of lines per footnote/note.
 
 When I make notes on Bemaer in general my notes have more than one line.
 
 AFAIK footnotes in org are single lines or you have to separate them
 with \par which is not so good.
 
 Daniel
 
 2009/12/15 Eric S Fraga ucec...@ucl.ac.uk:
  At Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:09:33 +0100,
  Carsten Dominik wrote:
 
 
  [...]
 
  One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
  for other export.
 
  Carsten,
 
  I wonder if simply turning this on its head wouldn't be a good
  solution?  By this I mean to use org-mode footnotes to represent
  beamer notes (at least in my view footnotes make no sense in
  presentations).  In export, footnotes are translated to notes for
  beamer but are treated as usual for all other export targets.
 
  A thought...
 
 
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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-11 Thread Carsten Dominik

Hi everyone,

the current state of affairs in beamer support is now in
the master branch of the git repo.

My little draft documentation is now at

   http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-beamer.php

But it is really limited and I am hoping very much that someone
will turn this into something useful!

- Carsten


On Dec 11, 2009, at 12:49 AM, Mark Elston wrote:


Nick Dokos wrote:
IIUC, another way to go (possibly much simpler than org-babel[1])  
is to use

selective export:
#+EXPORT_SELECT_TAGS:   Tags that select a tree for export
#+EXPORT_EXCLUDE_TAGS:  Tags that exclude a tree from export
Mark the handout and notes sections with different tags and export
the document twice, once with the handout tag selected and once
with the notes tag selected.


This sounds like it would work as well, though it probably results
in a very different org-file organization to make it work.  I will
have to play around with the various options to see what works best
for me.

Thanks.


HTH,
Nick
[1] NB: org-babel is another area that I know very little about, but
hope to learn more about during vacation (although by this time, the
todo list for vacation has expanded sufficiently to occupy several
lifetimes...)


Hah!  I know exactly what you mean...

Mark


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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-10 Thread Carsten Dominik


On Nov 26, 2009, at 7:29 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:




I usually make my presentations in beamer as below.
,
| \begin{frame}
|   \frametitle{This is the frametitle}
|   \begin{itemize}
| \item Some information
| \begin{itemize}
|   \item Some information in a subitem
| \end{itemize}
| \item more information
| \item more information \note[item]{This is a note about this  
item}

|   \end{itemize}
| \end{frame}
`

Therefore, I think a simple solution is just writing the \note  
command directly
in org that would then be passed to beamer. In org-mode the same  
slide would be


,
| * This is the frametitle
|  - Some information
|- Some information in a subitem
|  - more information
|  - more information \note[item]{This is a note about this item}
`

This avoids cluttering the org file and since the item (including  
the note) will
probably span more then one line, then just leaving notes like this  
will allow
hiding everything with the outline capabilities of org-mode. If a  
subtree is

used this would probably not be possible.

The item option in the note command is used in beamer to number  
the notes (I

myself always want this).

Of course that if everyone else like to put the notes at the end of  
the frame
then a subtree with all the notes makes sense. Beamer does not  
impose where the
notes should be inside the frame and I can reeducate myself to put  
them inside a
subtree, but I'd like to leave the notes near the items they are  
related to, if

possible.


I still don't have any better ideas than this to represent notes
in Org for beamer presentations.  Just writing \noe{...} as you
suggest will certainly work - the disadvantage is that this does
not make a lot of sense when exporting to other formats.

One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
for other export.

I'd really be interested to get more input on this issue.

- Carsten



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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-10 Thread Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
At Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:09:33 +0100,
Carsten Dominik carsten.domi...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
 On Nov 26, 2009, at 7:29 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
 
 
 
  I usually make my presentations in beamer as below.
  ,
  | \begin{frame}
  |   \frametitle{This is the frametitle}
  |   \begin{itemize}
  | \item Some information
  | \begin{itemize}
  |   \item Some information in a subitem
  | \end{itemize}
  | \item more information
  | \item more information \note[item]{This is a note about this  
  item}
  |   \end{itemize}
  | \end{frame}
  `
 
  Therefore, I think a simple solution is just writing the \note  
  command directly
  in org that would then be passed to beamer. In org-mode the same  
  slide would be
 
  ,
  | * This is the frametitle
  |  - Some information
  |- Some information in a subitem
  |  - more information
  |  - more information \note[item]{This is a note about this item}
  `
 
  This avoids cluttering the org file and since the item (including  
  the note) will
  probably span more then one line, then just leaving notes like this  
  will allow
  hiding everything with the outline capabilities of org-mode. If a  
  subtree is
  used this would probably not be possible.
 
  The item option in the note command is used in beamer to number  
  the notes (I
  myself always want this).
 
  Of course that if everyone else like to put the notes at the end of  
  the frame
  then a subtree with all the notes makes sense. Beamer does not  
  impose where the
  notes should be inside the frame and I can reeducate myself to put  
  them inside a
  subtree, but I'd like to leave the notes near the items they are  
  related to, if
  possible.
 
 I still don't have any better ideas than this to represent notes
 in Org for beamer presentations.  Just writing \noe{...} as you
 suggest will certainly work - the disadvantage is that this does
 not make a lot of sense when exporting to other formats.
 
 One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
 for other export.
 
 I'd really be interested to get more input on this issue.
 
 - Carsten
 

Maybe it is better to simple ignore notes when exporting to other formats.

For me notes in beamer are useful only to give me an idea of what I intend to
talk about in the presentation and help me training for the presentation. They
are not really part of the final exported document and sometimes I put a lot
of information in them (possible in a different language from the
presentation).

Also, the contents in notes can be anything such as a table or a figure. This
obviously would result in an error if or if org tried to put them into a
footnote when exporting to other formats.

Therefore, the question is has anyone here any interest in notes when exporting
to other formats or do they only make sense when exporting to beamer?


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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-10 Thread Nick Dokos
Darlan Cavalcante Moreira darc...@gmail.com wrote:

 At Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:09:33 +0100,
 Carsten Dominik carsten.domi...@gmail.com wrote:
  
  
  On Nov 26, 2009, at 7:29 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
  
  
  
   I usually make my presentations in beamer as below.
   ,
   | \begin{frame}
   |   \frametitle{This is the frametitle}
   |   \begin{itemize}
   | \item Some information
   | \begin{itemize}
   |   \item Some information in a subitem
   | \end{itemize}
   | \item more information
   | \item more information \note[item]{This is a note about this  
   item}
   |   \end{itemize}
   | \end{frame}
   `
  
   Therefore, I think a simple solution is just writing the \note  
   command directly
   in org that would then be passed to beamer. In org-mode the same  
   slide would be
  
   ,
   | * This is the frametitle
   |  - Some information
   |- Some information in a subitem
   |  - more information
   |  - more information \note[item]{This is a note about this item}
   `
  
   This avoids cluttering the org file and since the item (including  
   the note) will
   probably span more then one line, then just leaving notes like this  
   will allow
   hiding everything with the outline capabilities of org-mode. If a  
   subtree is
   used this would probably not be possible.
  
   The item option in the note command is used in beamer to number  
   the notes (I
   myself always want this).
  
   Of course that if everyone else like to put the notes at the end of  
   the frame
   then a subtree with all the notes makes sense. Beamer does not  
   impose where the
   notes should be inside the frame and I can reeducate myself to put  
   them inside a
   subtree, but I'd like to leave the notes near the items they are  
   related to, if
   possible.
  
  I still don't have any better ideas than this to represent notes
  in Org for beamer presentations.  Just writing \noe{...} as you
  suggest will certainly work - the disadvantage is that this does
  not make a lot of sense when exporting to other formats.
  
  One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
  for other export.
  
  I'd really be interested to get more input on this issue.
  
  - Carsten
  
 
 Maybe it is better to simple ignore notes when exporting to other formats.
 
 For me notes in beamer are useful only to give me an idea of what I intend to
 talk about in the presentation and help me training for the presentation. They
 are not really part of the final exported document and sometimes I put a lot
 of information in them (possible in a different language from the
 presentation).
 
 Also, the contents in notes can be anything such as a table or a figure. This
 obviously would result in an error if or if org tried to put them into a
 footnote when exporting to other formats.
 
 Therefore, the question is has anyone here any interest in notes when 
 exporting
 to other formats or do they only make sense when exporting to beamer?
 

For me, notes are rather important: in addition to reminding me what to
say, they are essentially a second level to the presentation (and I
always include them in any handouts). Somebody who has a vague interest
in the subject can look at the slides. If they want to go into it a bit
deeper, they can look at the notes.

I've done a handful of presentations using org/beamer and they have all
been written specifically for exporting to beamer. In most cases, I've
had to manipulate the LaTeX output to get what I want (but at least part
of that was because of my own stupidity: my mapping from org to beamer
was much more limited than it had to be - unfortunately, I've not had
the time to go back and rework a presentation in light of what I now
know, so I still can't be much help to say what works and what doesn't).

Given that I only export the presentation to beamer, I'm actually happy
with Darlan's solution. I hope to try it over the Christmas break and
report back.

So unless somebody comes up with a really good idea, delaying any
org-specific implementation might be the best way forward: it would save
wear-and-tear on Carsten, allow the rest of us to catch up and gather
some experience and perhaps come up with better ideas on how to handle
this.

Nick


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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-10 Thread Mark Elston

I have been following this discussion with some interest as it may
provide the basis for something I am interested in doing as well.
I hope my discussion doesn't muddy the waters too much...

Nick Dokos wrote:

Darlan Cavalcante Moreira darc...@gmail.com wrote:


At Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:09:33 +0100,
Carsten Dominik carsten.domi...@gmail.com wrote:

...

I still don't have any better ideas than this to represent notes
in Org for beamer presentations.  Just writing \noe{...} as you
suggest will certainly work - the disadvantage is that this does
not make a lot of sense when exporting to other formats.

One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
for other export.

I'd really be interested to get more input on this issue.

- Carsten


Maybe it is better to simple ignore notes when exporting to other formats.

For me notes in beamer are useful only to give me an idea of what I intend to
talk about in the presentation and help me training for the presentation. They
are not really part of the final exported document and sometimes I put a lot
of information in them (possible in a different language from the
presentation).

Also, the contents in notes can be anything such as a table or a figure. This
obviously would result in an error if or if org tried to put them into a
footnote when exporting to other formats.

Therefore, the question is has anyone here any interest in notes when exporting
to other formats or do they only make sense when exporting to beamer?



My case is similar.  I teach a class each week and, so far, have created
two documents; a set of handouts and my notes for teaching.  Generally
these documents start from the same original and I modify and expand the
notes I use for teaching while leaving the handouts a smaller doc for
those in the class to take their own notes from.

I don't use beamer as the handouts tend to be 6-8 pages of 'normal' text
as it is and my teaching notes are usually far larger.  I don't want to
manipulate a stack of paper while teaching.



For me, notes are rather important: in addition to reminding me what to
say, they are essentially a second level to the presentation (and I
always include them in any handouts). Somebody who has a vague interest
in the subject can look at the slides. If they want to go into it a bit
deeper, they can look at the notes.


My case is similar but I don't 'expose' my teaching notes to the
students for a variety of reasons.



...
So unless somebody comes up with a really good idea, delaying any
org-specific implementation might be the best way forward: it would save
wear-and-tear on Carsten, allow the rest of us to catch up and gather
some experience and perhaps come up with better ideas on how to handle
this.

Nick



I guess my request is similar to what has been discussed above in that I
would *very* much like to maintain handouts and teaching material in the
same file and then export it to two different files as necessary.  This
would make my job a lot easier to manage.  I could decide which tables,
figures, text, etc are common to both docs and which are just for me and
everything happens automatically behind the scenes.

Beamer output is not critical for me (or even necessarily desired) right
now but I would like a way of marking some text for 'limited' export.
Using a special notation is not a problem if it gives me the ability to
maintain a single document that I can export to two different LaTeX/PDF
docs.

Mark



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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-10 Thread Thomas S. Dye

Hi Mark,

On Dec 10, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Mark Elston wrote:


I have been following this discussion with some interest as it may
provide the basis for something I am interested in doing as well.
I hope my discussion doesn't muddy the waters too much...

Nick Dokos wrote:

Darlan Cavalcante Moreira darc...@gmail.com wrote:

At Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:09:33 +0100,
Carsten Dominik carsten.domi...@gmail.com wrote:

...

I still don't have any better ideas than this to represent notes
in Org for beamer presentations.  Just writing \noe{...} as you
suggest will certainly work - the disadvantage is that this does
not make a lot of sense when exporting to other formats.

One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
for other export.

I'd really be interested to get more input on this issue.

- Carsten

Maybe it is better to simple ignore notes when exporting to other  
formats.


For me notes in beamer are useful only to give me an idea of what  
I intend to
talk about in the presentation and help me training for the  
presentation. They
are not really part of the final exported document and sometimes  
I put a lot

of information in them (possible in a different language from the
presentation).

Also, the contents in notes can be anything such as a table or a  
figure. This
obviously would result in an error if or if org tried to put them  
into a

footnote when exporting to other formats.

Therefore, the question is has anyone here any interest in notes  
when exporting
to other formats or do they only make sense when exporting to  
beamer?




My case is similar.  I teach a class each week and, so far, have  
created

two documents; a set of handouts and my notes for teaching.  Generally
these documents start from the same original and I modify and expand  
the

notes I use for teaching while leaving the handouts a smaller doc for
those in the class to take their own notes from.

I don't use beamer as the handouts tend to be 6-8 pages of 'normal'  
text
as it is and my teaching notes are usually far larger.  I don't want  
to

manipulate a stack of paper while teaching.

For me, notes are rather important: in addition to reminding me  
what to

say, they are essentially a second level to the presentation (and I
always include them in any handouts). Somebody who has a vague  
interest
in the subject can look at the slides. If they want to go into it a  
bit

deeper, they can look at the notes.


My case is similar but I don't 'expose' my teaching notes to the
students for a variety of reasons.


...
So unless somebody comes up with a really good idea, delaying any
org-specific implementation might be the best way forward: it would  
save

wear-and-tear on Carsten, allow the rest of us to catch up and gather
some experience and perhaps come up with better ideas on how to  
handle

this.
Nick


I guess my request is similar to what has been discussed above in  
that I
would *very* much like to maintain handouts and teaching material in  
the
same file and then export it to two different files as necessary.   
This
would make my job a lot easier to manage.  I could decide which  
tables,
figures, text, etc are common to both docs and which are just for me  
and

everything happens automatically behind the scenes.

Beamer output is not critical for me (or even necessarily desired)  
right

now but I would like a way of marking some text for 'limited' export.
Using a special notation is not a problem if it gives me the ability  
to
maintain a single document that I can export to two different LaTeX/ 
PDF

docs.

Mark


I use Org-babel to accomplish this.  Its literate programming facility  
lets you define a block of text and re-use it wherever you like.  You  
can tangle as many .tex files as you want from a single Org-mode  
document.


You can find some examples here:

http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/org-babel-uses.php

HTH,
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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-10 Thread Scot Becker
For what it's worth, my preparation style would follow Mark's.  Chart the
flow of what I want to say in org, ideally using whatever hierarchy I need
to do it, then export the outline and essential detail for
beamer-and/or-handouts.  I'd keep the teaching notes to myself (and keep
them part of the same outline) if there was a way to do it.  I'm happy to
use the \notes{} proposal until the org-hive figures out if something more
elegant can be done.

Scot


On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 8:49 PM, Mark Elston m_els...@comcast.net wrote:

 I have been following this discussion with some interest as it may
 provide the basis for something I am interested in doing as well.
 I hope my discussion doesn't muddy the waters too much...

 Nick Dokos wrote:

 Darlan Cavalcante Moreira darc...@gmail.com wrote:

  At Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:09:33 +0100,
 Carsten Dominik carsten.domi...@gmail.com wrote:

 ...

 I still don't have any better ideas than this to represent notes
 in Org for beamer presentations.  Just writing \noe{...} as you
 suggest will certainly work - the disadvantage is that this does
 not make a lot of sense when exporting to other formats.

 One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
 for other export.

 I'd really be interested to get more input on this issue.

 - Carsten

  Maybe it is better to simple ignore notes when exporting to other
 formats.

 For me notes in beamer are useful only to give me an idea of what I
 intend to
 talk about in the presentation and help me training for the presentation.
 They
 are not really part of the final exported document and sometimes I put
 a lot
 of information in them (possible in a different language from the
 presentation).

 Also, the contents in notes can be anything such as a table or a figure.
 This
 obviously would result in an error if or if org tried to put them into a
 footnote when exporting to other formats.

 Therefore, the question is has anyone here any interest in notes when
 exporting
 to other formats or do they only make sense when exporting to beamer?


 My case is similar.  I teach a class each week and, so far, have created
 two documents; a set of handouts and my notes for teaching.  Generally
 these documents start from the same original and I modify and expand the
 notes I use for teaching while leaving the handouts a smaller doc for
 those in the class to take their own notes from.

 I don't use beamer as the handouts tend to be 6-8 pages of 'normal' text
 as it is and my teaching notes are usually far larger.  I don't want to
 manipulate a stack of paper while teaching.



 For me, notes are rather important: in addition to reminding me what to
 say, they are essentially a second level to the presentation (and I
 always include them in any handouts). Somebody who has a vague interest
 in the subject can look at the slides. If they want to go into it a bit
 deeper, they can look at the notes.


 My case is similar but I don't 'expose' my teaching notes to the
 students for a variety of reasons.


 ...

 So unless somebody comes up with a really good idea, delaying any
 org-specific implementation might be the best way forward: it would save
 wear-and-tear on Carsten, allow the rest of us to catch up and gather
 some experience and perhaps come up with better ideas on how to handle
 this.

 Nick


 I guess my request is similar to what has been discussed above in that I
 would *very* much like to maintain handouts and teaching material in the
 same file and then export it to two different files as necessary.  This
 would make my job a lot easier to manage.  I could decide which tables,
 figures, text, etc are common to both docs and which are just for me and
 everything happens automatically behind the scenes.

 Beamer output is not critical for me (or even necessarily desired) right
 now but I would like a way of marking some text for 'limited' export.
 Using a special notation is not a problem if it gives me the ability to
 maintain a single document that I can export to two different LaTeX/PDF
 docs.

 Mark




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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-10 Thread Mark Elston

Thomas S. Dye wrote:

Hi Mark,

On Dec 10, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Mark Elston wrote:


I have been following this discussion with some interest as it may
provide the basis for something I am interested in doing as well.
I hope my discussion doesn't muddy the waters too much...

Nick Dokos wrote:
Darlan Cavalcante Moreira darc...@gmail.com 
mailto:darc...@gmail.com wrote:

At Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:09:33 +0100,
Carsten Dominik carsten.domi...@gmail.com 
mailto:carsten.domi...@gmail.com wrote:

...

I still don't have any better ideas than this to represent notes
in Org for beamer presentations.  Just writing \noe{...} as you
suggest will certainly work - the disadvantage is that this does
not make a lot of sense when exporting to other formats.

One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
for other export.

I'd really be interested to get more input on this issue.

- Carsten

Maybe it is better to simple ignore notes when exporting to other 
formats.


For me notes in beamer are useful only to give me an idea of what I 
intend to
talk about in the presentation and help me training for the 
presentation. They
are not really part of the final exported document and sometimes I 
put a lot

of information in them (possible in a different language from the
presentation).

Also, the contents in notes can be anything such as a table or a 
figure. This

obviously would result in an error if or if org tried to put them into a
footnote when exporting to other formats.

Therefore, the question is has anyone here any interest in notes 
when exporting

to other formats or do they only make sense when exporting to beamer?



My case is similar.  I teach a class each week and, so far, have created
two documents; a set of handouts and my notes for teaching.  Generally
these documents start from the same original and I modify and expand the
notes I use for teaching while leaving the handouts a smaller doc for
those in the class to take their own notes from.

I don't use beamer as the handouts tend to be 6-8 pages of 'normal' text
as it is and my teaching notes are usually far larger.  I don't want to
manipulate a stack of paper while teaching.


For me, notes are rather important: in addition to reminding me what to
say, they are essentially a second level to the presentation (and I
always include them in any handouts). Somebody who has a vague interest
in the subject can look at the slides. If they want to go into it a bit
deeper, they can look at the notes.


My case is similar but I don't 'expose' my teaching notes to the
students for a variety of reasons.


...
So unless somebody comes up with a really good idea, delaying any
org-specific implementation might be the best way forward: it would save
wear-and-tear on Carsten, allow the rest of us to catch up and gather
some experience and perhaps come up with better ideas on how to handle
this.
Nick


I guess my request is similar to what has been discussed above in that I
would *very* much like to maintain handouts and teaching material in the
same file and then export it to two different files as necessary.  This
would make my job a lot easier to manage.  I could decide which tables,
figures, text, etc are common to both docs and which are just for me and
everything happens automatically behind the scenes.

Beamer output is not critical for me (or even necessarily desired) right
now but I would like a way of marking some text for 'limited' export.
Using a special notation is not a problem if it gives me the ability to
maintain a single document that I can export to two different LaTeX/PDF
docs.

Mark


I use Org-babel to accomplish this.  Its literate programming facility lets you define a block of text and re-use it wherever you like.  You can tangle 
as many .tex files as you want from a single Org-mode document.


You can find some examples here:

http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/org-babel-uses.php



I had been avoiding the literate programming aspects of org-babel since
my previous experience with literate programming was less than
satisfying.  However, this use may be just what the doctor ordered.
I will have to give it a look.

Mark


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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-10 Thread Nick Dokos
Mark Elston m_els...@comcast.net wrote:

 Thomas S. Dye wrote:
 
  On Dec 10, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Mark Elston wrote:
 
   ...
  My case is similar.  I teach a class each week and, so far, have created
  two documents; a set of handouts and my notes for teaching.  Generally
  these documents start from the same original and I modify and expand the
  notes I use for teaching while leaving the handouts a smaller doc for
  those in the class to take their own notes from.
 
  I don't use beamer as the handouts tend to be 6-8 pages of 'normal' text
  as it is and my teaching notes are usually far larger.  I don't want to
  manipulate a stack of paper while teaching.

 I use Org-babel to accomplish this.  Its literate programming
 facility lets you define a block of text and re-use it wherever you
 like.  You can tangle as many .tex files as you want from a single
 Org-mode document.

 You can find some examples here:

 http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/org-babel-uses.php

IIUC, another way to go (possibly much simpler than org-babel[1]) is to use
selective export:

 #+EXPORT_SELECT_TAGS:   Tags that select a tree for export
 #+EXPORT_EXCLUDE_TAGS:  Tags that exclude a tree from export

Mark the handout and notes sections with different tags and export
the document twice, once with the handout tag selected and once
with the notes tag selected.

HTH,
Nick

[1] NB: org-babel is another area that I know very little about, but
hope to learn more about during vacation (although by this time, the
todo list for vacation has expanded sufficiently to occupy several
lifetimes...)


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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-12-10 Thread Mark Elston

Nick Dokos wrote:


IIUC, another way to go (possibly much simpler than org-babel[1]) is to use
selective export:

 #+EXPORT_SELECT_TAGS:   Tags that select a tree for export
 #+EXPORT_EXCLUDE_TAGS:  Tags that exclude a tree from export

Mark the handout and notes sections with different tags and export
the document twice, once with the handout tag selected and once
with the notes tag selected.



This sounds like it would work as well, though it probably results
in a very different org-file organization to make it work.  I will
have to play around with the various options to see what works best
for me.

Thanks.


HTH,
Nick

[1] NB: org-babel is another area that I know very little about, but
hope to learn more about during vacation (although by this time, the
todo list for vacation has expanded sufficiently to occupy several
lifetimes...)



Hah!  I know exactly what you mean...

Mark


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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-11-30 Thread Gray Calhoun

An optional setting sounds great.  I can't wait to see how it turns out.
--Gray

Carsten Dominik wrote:

Hi Gray,

thanks for chiming in, this was a very important piece of the puzzle.  
I had already realized that I should give up having fixed levels for 
columns, but I had still panned fixed levels for frames.  Now after 
your post I realize that this can be useful, but is not required, 
which means it should be optional.


Thanks!

- Carsten

On Nov 29, 2009, at 7:03 PM, Gray Calhoun wrote:


Hi Carsten and all,

Beamer export sounds fantastic.  I've been using org mode for this 
sort of thing a lot over the last year--all of my lecture notes are 
typed up as an org file, and I used org mode to draft slides for a 
presentation over the summer, so an automated process would be helpful.


But, I'm not sure that it makes sense to hardcode the frames as a 
level 2 headline (or any level headline); I find it easier to define 
a slide to be any headline that has no subheadings, regardless of its 
depth---the ability to outline the structure of a presentation as 
appropriate and then fill in the details (ie the slides) later is 
(imho) the reason to use org-mode for this sort of task in the first 
place. Columns, etc., could then be handled by using properties of 
the last headline, or as a special list.


This approach might also make it easier to export the same file to 
other formats (i.e. the existing html format).  I imagine that this 
would be a little harder to program, though, and is just my two cents.


--Gray

Carsten Dominik wrote:
(snipped)

1.2 Frames
===
Level 2 headline (or the level configured in
org-beamer-frame-level) become frames.  The headline text become
the frame title, but if no headline text is given, the frame gets
no title.  If the frame title contains the string \\, the line
will be split at that location, and the second half become the
frame /subtitle/.

(snipped)

--
Gray Calhoun

Assistant Professor of Economics, Iowa State University
http://www.econ.iastate.edu/~gcalhoun/

467 Heady Hall
Ames, IA 50011
Phone: (515) 294-6271
Fax:   (515) 294-0221


- Carsten







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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-11-29 Thread Gray Calhoun

Hi Carsten and all,

Beamer export sounds fantastic.  I've been using org mode for this sort 
of thing a lot over the last year--all of my lecture notes are typed up 
as an org file, and I used org mode to draft slides for a presentation 
over the summer, so an automated process would be helpful.


But, I'm not sure that it makes sense to hardcode the frames as a level 
2 headline (or any level headline); I find it easier to define a slide 
to be any headline that has no subheadings, regardless of its 
depth---the ability to outline the structure of a presentation as 
appropriate and then fill in the details (ie the slides) later is (imho) 
the reason to use org-mode for this sort of task in the first place. 
Columns, etc., could then be handled by using properties of the last 
headline, or as a special list.


This approach might also make it easier to export the same file to other 
formats (i.e. the existing html format).  I imagine that this would be a 
little harder to program, though, and is just my two cents.


--Gray

Carsten Dominik wrote:
(snipped)

1.2 Frames
===
Level 2 headline (or the level configured in
org-beamer-frame-level) become frames.  The headline text become
the frame title, but if no headline text is given, the frame gets
no title.  If the frame title contains the string \\, the line
will be split at that location, and the second half become the
frame /subtitle/.

(snipped)

--
Gray Calhoun

Assistant Professor of Economics, Iowa State University
http://www.econ.iastate.edu/~gcalhoun/

467 Heady Hall
Ames, IA 50011
Phone: (515) 294-6271
Fax:   (515) 294-0221


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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-11-29 Thread Carsten Dominik

Hi Gray,

thanks for chiming in, this was a very important piece of the puzzle.   
I had already realized that I should give up having fixed levels for  
columns, but I had still panned fixed levels for frames.  Now after  
your post I realize that this can be useful, but is not required,  
which means it should be optional.


Thanks!

- Carsten

On Nov 29, 2009, at 7:03 PM, Gray Calhoun wrote:


Hi Carsten and all,

Beamer export sounds fantastic.  I've been using org mode for this  
sort of thing a lot over the last year--all of my lecture notes are  
typed up as an org file, and I used org mode to draft slides for a  
presentation over the summer, so an automated process would be  
helpful.


But, I'm not sure that it makes sense to hardcode the frames as a  
level 2 headline (or any level headline); I find it easier to define  
a slide to be any headline that has no subheadings, regardless of  
its depth---the ability to outline the structure of a presentation  
as appropriate and then fill in the details (ie the slides) later is  
(imho) the reason to use org-mode for this sort of task in the first  
place. Columns, etc., could then be handled by using properties of  
the last headline, or as a special list.


This approach might also make it easier to export the same file to  
other formats (i.e. the existing html format).  I imagine that this  
would be a little harder to program, though, and is just my two cents.


--Gray

Carsten Dominik wrote:
(snipped)

1.2 Frames
===
Level 2 headline (or the level configured in
org-beamer-frame-level) become frames.  The headline text become
the frame title, but if no headline text is given, the frame gets
no title.  If the frame title contains the string \\, the line
will be split at that location, and the second half become the
frame /subtitle/.

(snipped)

--
Gray Calhoun

Assistant Professor of Economics, Iowa State University
http://www.econ.iastate.edu/~gcalhoun/

467 Heady Hall
Ames, IA 50011
Phone: (515) 294-6271
Fax:   (515) 294-0221


- Carsten





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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-11-27 Thread Eric S Fraga
At Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:49:49 -0500,
Dan Davison wrote:

[...]

 
 I'm trying to test out Carsten's example, but I have a question that
 probably just reveals that I haven't understood the discussion: what
 exactly are we supposed to use for the beamer entry in
 org-export-latex-classes?  Are we using the version in Eric Fraga's
 original post unmodified? (But that doesn't seem to have the initial
 header-string entry?) [Would someone like to make the start of a Worg
 page where we can keep the documentation and configuration code etc as
 it evolves? I can do it, but only very ignorantly.]

Dan,

sorry I didn't include everything in those earlier posts.  Here is the
full class definition I have been using (and this works with the
current version of org mode prior to Carsten's proposed changes):

--8---cut here---start-8---
(beamer
 
\\documentclass[bigger]{beamer}\n\\usepackage[utf8]{inputenc}\n\\usepackage[T1]{fontenc}\n\\usepackage{hyperref}\n\\usepackage{verbatim}\n
\\definecolor{verylightgray}{rgb}{0.93,0.93,1.0}
\\modebeamer{\\usetheme{progressbar}}
\\modehandout{\\usecolortheme[rgb={0.5,0.5,0.5}]{structure}\\usepackage{pgfpages}\\pgfpagesuselayout{4
 on 1}[a4paper,landscape,border shrink=5mm]}
\\usepackage[absolute,overlay]{textpos}\\setlength{\\TPHorizModule}{1mm}\\setlength{\\TPVertModule}{1mm}

 (\\section{%s} . \\section*{%s})
 (\\begin{frame}\\frametitle{%s} \\end{frame}
  \\begin{frame}\\frametitle{%s} \\end{frame})
 (\\begin{columns}%s \\end{columns}
  \\begin{columns}%s \\end{columns})
 (\\begin{column}{%s\\textwidth} \\end{column}
  \\begin{column}{%s\\textwidth} \\end{column})
 (\\begin{block}{%s} \\end{block}
  \\begin{block}{%s} \\end{block})
 )
--8---cut here---end---8---

You may need to change the beamer theme as I am not sure the progress
bar theme is in the standard beamer distribution (and I've hacked mine
in any case...).

I also have a beamerhandout class which looks identical to this one
except that the handout option has been passed to the documentclass
statement.  This begs the question: is there any way in org mode to
specify options to the document class?  It would greatly simplify
things!


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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-11-27 Thread Eric S Fraga
At Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:57:29 +0100,
Carsten Dominik wrote:

[...]

 Nothing of this is yet working with the current org.-mode.  I am
 building special support for this, basically the ability to provide a
 function that does the class support, instead of the list you normally
 have to provide in the org-export-latex-classes variable.  And then

Carsten,

one thing that would be useful (and which I've mentioned in a reply to
Dan) is the ability to specify options for the documentclass
(e.g. bigger, handout).  This would actually be useful in normal latex
export as well, of course.



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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-11-27 Thread Stephan Schmitt


Carsten Dominik wrote:

 On Nov 26, 2009, at 7:40 PM, Dan  wrote:
 ... using the heading title to set the column width feels
 wrong; the natural reaction is to think that that sort of metadata
 should be in a property.

 OK, I hear you all pull the same string, that Org-mode files should be
 beamer presentations as they are, more or less.

 ...
 3. Use meta data to make headlines special, instead of mixing this
stuff into the.  I first thought this is too hard - but maybe it is
OK when edited with column view?  Hmm, I am only half-sold on this -
 properties
are so hard to see when you need them frequently during editing.


Hi,

I would also prefer not to use headline content for formatting purposes.

Instead of introducing a new syntax for column widths, I'd rather store them as 
properties and provide dedicated functions to edit these in a convenient way.


Just my 2 cents, though.
Greetings,
Stephan


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[Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-11-26 Thread Carsten Dominik

Hi,

this is in response to the discussions about beamer
export from Org-mode.  Yesterday I had a long train ride
during which I scanned the beamer documentation (smoking
hot stuff!).  Then I made the attached draft
for Org-mode support, strongly based on the stuff
Eric Fraga has put together recently.  What is described
below sort-of works in some experimental code here, but before
I polish I would like comments on this outline.

NOW is the time to chime in.

Thanks!

- Carsten

  beamerdoc
  =

Author: Carsten Dominik carsten.domi...@gmail.com
Date: 2009-11-26 12:08:45 CET



Table of Contents
=
1 Organization
1.1 Sections
1.2 Frames
1.3 Columns
1.4 A column
1.5 Block-like environments
1.6 Overlay/action tag and environment options
1.7 Overlay/action in list environment
1.8 Embedded LaTeX
1.9 Example
2 org-beamer-mode
2.1 Fast tag selection for beamer environments
2.2 Special font-locking of beamer tags


1 Organization
~~~

1.1 Sections
=

By default, level one headlines become sections in the beamer
document.  You can configure the variable org-beamer-frame-level
to change this.  Setting it to three will make level 2 headlines
become subsections.  For the rest of this document, I will assume
that this variable has its default value 2.

1.2 Frames
===
Level 2 headline (or the level configured in
org-beamer-frame-level) become frames.  The headline text become
the frame title, but if no headline text is given, the frame gets
no title.  If the frame title contains the string \\, the line
will be split at that location, and the second half become the
frame /subtitle/.

1.3 Columns

Headlines one below frames (level 3 by default) can be used start
columns on a frame.  The presence of such a headline without a
beamer tag (see below) will create the columns environment.  The
text in the headline is ignored.  It is helpful to write
columns in this headline anyway.

1.4 A column
=
Headlines below a columns environment (level 4 by default) open a
column.  The text in the headline should be a number smaller than
one and will be used to define the column width.

1.5 Block-like environments

Any headline can become a block-like environment by tagging it
with a beamer tag.  For examples, `:B_block:' will trigger the
creation of a block environment, while `:B_theorem:' will trigger
the creation of a theorem environment.  When it makes sense, the
headline text is used in an appropriate argument of the
environment, if that does not make sense, it is ignored.

1.6 Overlay/action tag and environment options
===
Any headline can contain three types of cookies

`...': The overlay/action setting for the environment
`[...]': The default overlay/action specification for the
 content of the environment, which can be overwritten locally
 by each content element.
`[...]': Optional argument(s) for the environment

These can be given in arbitrary order freely in the headline.
Org-mode will fish them out and insert them in the appropriate
locations in the \begin statement of the environment.

Having these cookies plainly in the headline reduces the
usability of the document as a normal document.  I have been
thinking to move them into comments or properties, but I think
this is, in the end, less convenient.  I people want to export
these in other ways as well, we can write a function to clean
up

1.7 Overlay/action in list environment
===
For plain list environments (ordered, unordered, and description
lists) you can start each item optionally with an overlay
specification `...'.  If any item in the list contains a
default specification `[...]', this will be moved into the
begin statement of the itemize/enumerate/description environment,
to provide a default setting for the list items.

1.8 Embedded LaTeX
===
As is normal for Org-mode, you can embed LaTeX commands into the
text, and they will be transferred literally into the exported
document.  In particular, you can also embed beamer-specific
commands.

1.9 Example

Here is a (still very incomplete) example Org document that is
intended for beamer export.

  #+LaTeX_CLASS: beamer
  #+TITLE: Example Presentation
  #+AUTHOR: Carsten Dominik

  * This is the first structural section
  ** Frame 1 \\ with a subtitle
  *** columns will be used
   0.3
  * Thanks   :B_block:
Thanks to Eric Fraga for the first viable beamer setup in Org
  * Here we continue after the block :B_normal:
using a normal environment that helps to keep the structure
after a block
   0.7
  ** Frame 2 \\ where we will not use columns
  ***  
Request 
 :B_block:

  Please test this stuff!

2 

Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-11-26 Thread Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs
Hiho!

Sounds very reasonable!

Carsten Dominik schrieb:
 this is in response to the discussions about beamer
 export from Org-mode.  Yesterday I had a long train ride
 during which I scanned the beamer documentation (smoking
 hot stuff!).  Then I made the attached draft
 for Org-mode support, strongly based on the stuff
 Eric Fraga has put together recently.  What is described
 below sort-of works in some experimental code here, but before
 I polish I would like comments on this outline.
 
 NOW is the time to chime in.

-- 
Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs frie...@nomaden.org
 TauPan on Ircnet and Freenode ;)


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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-11-26 Thread Nick Dokos
Carsten Dominik carsten.domi...@gmail.com wrote:

 this is in response to the discussions about beamer
 export from Org-mode.  Yesterday I had a long train ride
 during which I scanned the beamer documentation (smoking
 hot stuff!).

Indeed - Till Tantau has a gift for documentation (among other
gifts). I'd recommend the documentation for pgf/tikz as well. Amazing.

 Then I made the attached draft
 for Org-mode support, strongly based on the stuff
 Eric Fraga has put together recently.  What is described
 below sort-of works in some experimental code here, but before
 I polish I would like comments on this outline.
 
 NOW is the time to chime in.
 

Two questions (with apologies in advance: I've been buried for a while
now, so I may have missed important details):

o How do I test? Is there a beamer template for org-export-latex-classes
  that implements this spec? I just did a git pull but did not see one.

o I didn't see anything about notes (in the beamer sense: speaker notes
  that don't appear in the slides, but do appear in the handout). For
  me, that is one of the most important aspects of beamer: the slides
  are there to remind me what to say (and hopefully to elicit the same
  memory in the audience, after the talk is finished). They provide the
  structure, but they are just a bunch of bones, a skeleton.  The notes
  are the meat of the presentation, so imho it would behoove Org to
  provide a mechanism for notes from the get-go.

Thanks,
Nick





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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-11-26 Thread Carsten Dominik


On Nov 26, 2009, at 5:30 PM, Nick Dokos wrote:


Carsten Dominik carsten.domi...@gmail.com wrote:


this is in response to the discussions about beamer
export from Org-mode.  Yesterday I had a long train ride
during which I scanned the beamer documentation (smoking
hot stuff!).


Indeed - Till Tantau has a gift for documentation (among other
gifts). I'd recommend the documentation for pgf/tikz as well. Amazing.


Don't tell me he wrote pgf/tikz as well???

Unbelievable.




Then I made the attached draft
for Org-mode support, strongly based on the stuff
Eric Fraga has put together recently.  What is described
below sort-of works in some experimental code here, but before
I polish I would like comments on this outline.

NOW is the time to chime in.



Two questions (with apologies in advance: I've been buried for a while
now, so I may have missed important details):

o How do I test? Is there a beamer template for org-export-latex- 
classes

 that implements this spec? I just did a git pull but did not see one.


This is still crappy code on a local branch here, I want to figure out  
what

I/we actually want before publishing it.



o I didn't see anything about notes (in the beamer sense: speaker  
notes

 that don't appear in the slides, but do appear in the handout). For
 me, that is one of the most important aspects of beamer: the slides
 are there to remind me what to say (and hopefully to elicit the same
 memory in the audience, after the talk is finished). They provide the
 structure, but they are just a bunch of bones, a skeleton.  The notes
 are the meat of the presentation, so imho it would behoove Org to
 provide a mechanism for notes from the get-go.


Yes, I did not look at notes yet.  Good point.

Any succestions?  Subtrees with a B_note tag?

First need to try how notes actually work

- Carsten



Thanks,
Nick





- Carsten





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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-11-26 Thread Dan Davison
Carsten Dominik carsten.domi...@gmail.com writes:

 Hi,

 this is in response to the discussions about beamer
 export from Org-mode.  Yesterday I had a long train ride
 during which I scanned the beamer documentation (smoking
 hot stuff!).  Then I made the attached draft
 for Org-mode support, strongly based on the stuff
 Eric Fraga has put together recently.  What is described
 below sort-of works in some experimental code here, but before
 I polish I would like comments on this outline.

 NOW is the time to chime in.

This is all looking like *extremely* good news to me.

I'm trying to test out Carsten's example, but I have a question that
probably just reveals that I haven't understood the discussion: what
exactly are we supposed to use for the beamer entry in
org-export-latex-classes?  Are we using the version in Eric Fraga's
original post unmodified? (But that doesn't seem to have the initial
header-string entry?) [Would someone like to make the start of a Worg
page where we can keep the documentation and configuration code etc as
it evolves? I can do it, but only very ignorantly.]

Thanks,

Dan


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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-11-26 Thread Carsten Dominik


On Nov 26, 2009, at 5:49 PM, Dan Davison wrote:


Carsten Dominik carsten.domi...@gmail.com writes:


Hi,

this is in response to the discussions about beamer
export from Org-mode.  Yesterday I had a long train ride
during which I scanned the beamer documentation (smoking
hot stuff!).  Then I made the attached draft
for Org-mode support, strongly based on the stuff
Eric Fraga has put together recently.  What is described
below sort-of works in some experimental code here, but before
I polish I would like comments on this outline.

NOW is the time to chime in.


This is all looking like *extremely* good news to me.

I'm trying to test out Carsten's example, but I have a question that
probably just reveals that I haven't understood the discussion: what
exactly are we supposed to use for the beamer entry in
org-export-latex-classes?  Are we using the version in Eric Fraga's
original post unmodified? (But that doesn't seem to have the initial
header-string entry?) [Would someone like to make the start of a Worg
page where we can keep the documentation and configuration code etc as
it evolves? I can do it, but only very ignorantly.]



Nothing of this is yet working with the current org.-mode.  I am  
building special support for this, basically the ability to provide a  
function that does the class support, instead of the list you normally  
have to provide in the org-export-latex-classes variable.  And then  
org-beamer.el which implements this function and the minor mode.


- Carsten



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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-11-26 Thread Thomas S. Dye

Hi Carsten,

On Nov 26, 2009, at 1:17 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote:


Hi,

this is in response to the discussions about beamer
export from Org-mode.  Yesterday I had a long train ride
during which I scanned the beamer documentation (smoking
hot stuff!).  Then I made the attached draft
for Org-mode support, strongly based on the stuff
Eric Fraga has put together recently.  What is described
below sort-of works in some experimental code here, but before
I polish I would like comments on this outline.

NOW is the time to chime in.

Thanks!

- Carsten



This is a very useful idea.  Beamer is definitely smoking hot stuff!

Org-mode with Beamer works tolerably well now.  Eric Fraga's setup in  
a post a few days ago manages to leverage the core of Beamer  
functionality in plain-vanilla Org-mode.  It would be nice to get all  
of Beamer with Org-mode, but I'm worried that this proposal would  
create a separate species of Org-mode file, which would have a single  
use.  Perhaps my worry is misplaced, but I think it would be more  
useful to embed a Beamer presentation within an Org-mode file.



 beamerdoc
 =

Author: Carsten Dominik carsten.domi...@gmail.com
Date: 2009-11-26 12:08:45 CET



Table of Contents
=
1 Organization
   1.1 Sections
   1.2 Frames
   1.3 Columns
   1.4 A column
   1.5 Block-like environments
   1.6 Overlay/action tag and environment options
   1.7 Overlay/action in list environment
   1.8 Embedded LaTeX
   1.9 Example
2 org-beamer-mode
   2.1 Fast tag selection for beamer environments
   2.2 Special font-locking of beamer tags


1 Organization
~~~

1.1 Sections
=

By default, level one headlines become sections in the beamer
document.  You can configure the variable org-beamer-frame-level
to change this.  Setting it to three will make level 2 headlines
become subsections.  For the rest of this document, I will assume
that this variable has its default value 2.



In Beamer, the use (or not) of sections and subsections is determined  
by the theme, which is also responsible for how the title is  
displayed.  So, some mechanism to set the theme will need to be part  
of the package.  After this, in my experience, is the colortheme.  The  
rather somber colors preferred by the Beamer author don't play too  
well here in Hawai`i, and I typically set the colortheme as well.



1.2 Frames
===
Level 2 headline (or the level configured in
org-beamer-frame-level) become frames.  The headline text become
the frame title, but if no headline text is given, the frame gets
no title.  If the frame title contains the string \\, the line
will be split at that location, and the second half become the
frame /subtitle/.

1.3 Columns

Headlines one below frames (level 3 by default) can be used start
columns on a frame.  The presence of such a headline without a
beamer tag (see below) will create the columns environment.  The
text in the headline is ignored.  It is helpful to write
columns in this headline anyway.

1.4 A column
=
Headlines below a columns environment (level 4 by default) open a
column.  The text in the headline should be a number smaller than
one and will be used to define the column width.



This idea of a fixed starting point for mapping Org-mode headlines to  
Beamer elements looks very good, if you want to devote an entire Org- 
mode document to a Beamer slide show.  Sebastien Vauban's concerns in  
another message in this thread about all the special requirements for  
headlines in Beamer mode and their effect on the normal Org-mode use  
of the file (I'm paraphrasing) are important.


Would it be possible to tag a headline in some way to indicate Beamer  
mode starts here and then have a beamer-export function only export  
appropriately tagged sub-trees?  This would mean that the mapping  
scheme would start at the marked sub-tree level: sections at level n,  
frames at level n+1 (depending on the value of org-beamer-frame- 
level), etc.


With this kind of structure it would be possible to embed more than  
one beamer slide show in an Org-mode file, so there would need to be  
some mechanism to generate separate file names.



1.5 Block-like environments

Any headline can become a block-like environment by tagging it
with a beamer tag.  For examples, `:B_block:' will trigger the
creation of a block environment, while `:B_theorem:' will trigger
the creation of a theorem environment.  When it makes sense, the
headline text is used in an appropriate argument of the
environment, if that does not make sense, it is ignored.

1.6 Overlay/action tag and environment options
===
Any headline can contain three types of cookies

`...': The overlay/action setting for the environment
`[...]': The default overlay/action specification for the
content of the environment, which can be 

Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-11-26 Thread Eric S Fraga
At Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:17:21 +0100,
Carsten Dominik wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 this is in response to the discussions about beamer
 export from Org-mode.  Yesterday I had a long train ride
 during which I scanned the beamer documentation (smoking
 hot stuff!).  Then I made the attached draft
 for Org-mode support, strongly based on the stuff
 Eric Fraga has put together recently.  What is described
 below sort-of works in some experimental code here, but before
 I polish I would like comments on this outline.

Wow!  This is great Carsten.  

As you know, I have spent the past week preparing a set of lectures
for one of my courses completely in org mode using beamer.  I finished
them today (100 or so slides) and the way I set it up is working quite
well for me.  Mind you, you've added a few features that will
definitely come in useful and I am going to retrofit back into this
set of slides when your update is available.

I do like the whole setup you've defined but I have a couple of comments:

 1.3 Columns
 
 Headlines one below frames (level 3 by default) can be used start
 columns on a frame.  The presence of such a headline without a
 beamer tag (see below) will create the columns environment.  The
 text in the headline is ignored.  It is helpful to write
 columns in this headline anyway.

I've modified *my* interpretation of level 3 headings to take the text
given on this heading as the option to the columns environment so
that, for instance,

,
| * section
| ** a slide
| *** [t]
|  0.4
|  - one column
|  0.6
|  - another slightly wider column
`

will generate

  ...
  \begin{columns}[t]  % note the [t]
  ...

as I found this necessary sometimes.  Although this looks a little
ugly, I am not sure if there is a better way of passing these types of
options to the columns environment?

 1.4 A column
 =
 Headlines below a columns environment (level 4 by default) open a
 column.  The text in the headline should be a number smaller than
 one and will be used to define the column width.

You may wish to make it clear that this will be relative to \textwidth
as currently defined at that point.

 1.5 Block-like environments
 
 Any headline can become a block-like environment by tagging it
 with a beamer tag.  For examples, `:B_block:' will trigger the
 creation of a block environment, while `:B_theorem:' will trigger
 the creation of a theorem environment.  When it makes sense, the
 headline text is used in an appropriate argument of the
 environment, if that does not make sense, it is ignored.

This is really nice!  As you know, I was using level 5 for blocks
which meant that they had to be in columns (although obviously I could
have one column of full width).  This is much less clumsy than my
approach. 

One last thing: would you like to mention support for \alert{} or does
this belong elsewhere?

Thanks again,
eric


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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-11-26 Thread Darlan Cavalcante Moreira


I usually make my presentations in beamer as below.
,
| \begin{frame}
|   \frametitle{This is the frametitle}
|   \begin{itemize}
| \item Some information
| \begin{itemize}
|   \item Some information in a subitem
| \end{itemize}
| \item more information
| \item more information \note[item]{This is a note about this item}
|   \end{itemize}
| \end{frame}
`

Therefore, I think a simple solution is just writing the \note command directly
in org that would then be passed to beamer. In org-mode the same slide would be

,
| * This is the frametitle
|  - Some information
|- Some information in a subitem
|  - more information
|  - more information \note[item]{This is a note about this item}
`

This avoids cluttering the org file and since the item (including the note) will
probably span more then one line, then just leaving notes like this will allow
hiding everything with the outline capabilities of org-mode. If a subtree is
used this would probably not be possible.

The item option in the note command is used in beamer to number the notes (I
myself always want this).

Of course that if everyone else like to put the notes at the end of the frame
then a subtree with all the notes makes sense. Beamer does not impose where the
notes should be inside the frame and I can reeducate myself to put them inside a
subtree, but I'd like to leave the notes near the items they are related to, if
possible.

- Darlan Cavalcante

At Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:47:22 +0100,
Carsten Dominik carsten.domi...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
 On Nov 26, 2009, at 5:30 PM, Nick Dokos wrote:
 
  Carsten Dominik carsten.domi...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  this is in response to the discussions about beamer
  export from Org-mode.  Yesterday I had a long train ride
  during which I scanned the beamer documentation (smoking
  hot stuff!).
 
  Indeed - Till Tantau has a gift for documentation (among other
  gifts). I'd recommend the documentation for pgf/tikz as well. Amazing.
 
 Don't tell me he wrote pgf/tikz as well???
 
 Unbelievable.
 
 
  Then I made the attached draft
  for Org-mode support, strongly based on the stuff
  Eric Fraga has put together recently.  What is described
  below sort-of works in some experimental code here, but before
  I polish I would like comments on this outline.
 
  NOW is the time to chime in.
 
 
  Two questions (with apologies in advance: I've been buried for a while
  now, so I may have missed important details):
 
  o How do I test? Is there a beamer template for org-export-latex- 
  classes
   that implements this spec? I just did a git pull but did not see one.
 
 This is still crappy code on a local branch here, I want to figure out  
 what
 I/we actually want before publishing it.
 
 
  o I didn't see anything about notes (in the beamer sense: speaker  
  notes
   that don't appear in the slides, but do appear in the handout). For
   me, that is one of the most important aspects of beamer: the slides
   are there to remind me what to say (and hopefully to elicit the same
   memory in the audience, after the talk is finished). They provide the
   structure, but they are just a bunch of bones, a skeleton.  The notes
   are the meat of the presentation, so imho it would behoove Org to
   provide a mechanism for notes from the get-go.
 
 Yes, I did not look at notes yet.  Good point.
 
 Any succestions?  Subtrees with a B_note tag?
 
 First need to try how notes actually work
 
 - Carsten
 
 
  Thanks,
  Nick
 
 
 
 
 - Carsten
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-11-26 Thread Dan Davison
...
 On Nov 26, 2009, at 1:17 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote:

...
 NOW is the time to chime in.

I don't know if this is helpful from someone who hasn't thought through
the details of beamer support but just in case: is there any chance that
we should be thinking at this stage of a generic org-presentation API
which would initially support just beamer but which would leave open the
possibility for others to implement other slide presentation engines?
For example I remember that someone once brought up the possibility on
this list of exporting org to OpenOffice presentation format. And it's
possible to create something like a slide-show in HTML/CSS -- although I
never see anyone doing it. There are at least some things in common
between different slide-show engines, such as where to break from slide
to slide, slide titles, non-slide notes, etc.

Also, I do agree with others that to the extent possible we want
presentations to emerge naturally out of 'normal' org-files with the
help of established org mechanisms such as selective subtree
export. E.g. using the heading title to set the column width feels
wrong; the natural reaction is to think that that sort of metadata
should be in a property.

Dan


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Re: [Orgmode] Beamer support in Org-mode

2009-11-26 Thread Carsten Dominik


On Nov 26, 2009, at 7:40 PM, Dan  wrote:


...

On Nov 26, 2009, at 1:17 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote:


...

NOW is the time to chime in.


I don't know if this is helpful from someone who hasn't thought  
through
the details of beamer support but just in case: is there any chance  
that

we should be thinking at this stage of a generic org-presentation API
which would initially support just beamer but which would leave open  
the

possibility for others to implement other slide presentation engines?
For example I remember that someone once brought up the possibility on
this list of exporting org to OpenOffice presentation format. And it's
possible to create something like a slide-show in HTML/CSS --  
although I

never see anyone doing it. There are at least some things in common
between different slide-show engines, such as where to break from  
slide

to slide, slide titles, non-slide notes, etc.


This is an interesting thought, but would require someone skilled
in his area, and a lengthy design process.  LaTeX is not a bad
default for org, because it is LaTeX-centric anyway ?



Also, I do agree with others that to the extent possible we want
presentations to emerge naturally out of 'normal' org-files with the
help of established org mechanisms such as selective subtree
export. E.g. using the heading title to set the column width feels
wrong; the natural reaction is to think that that sort of metadata
should be in a property.


OK, I hear you all pull the same string, that Org-mode files should be  
beamer presentations as they are, more or less.


Here are some ideas in that direction:

1. Don't automatically use a specific headline level to create the  
columns

   environment - at least make that configurable.

2. Make beamer export force org-export-headline-levels equal org- 
beamer-frame-level,

   so that headlines below the frame level automatically become itemize
   levels, unless modified by tags or properties.

3. Use meta data to make headlines special, instead of mixing this
   stuff into the.  I first thought this is too hard - but maybe it is
   OK when edited with column view?  Hmm, I am only half-sold on this  
- properties

   are so hard to see when you need them frequently during editing.

Thomas asked for the possibility to export a subtree as a
presentation, with *relative* levels determining functionality.  This
should be easy - when selection a subtree with `C-c @' and then  
exporting,

relative levels are already being used now, for any kind of export.

...

- Carsten



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