Re: [O] Suggestion: Stackoverflow for Orgmode
@ Bastien, Jason thank you for your response! I made a proposal to stackexchange.com for a dedicated Org-mode site but they rejected it as a duplicate of stackoverflow. So this option is out. Nevertheless, I still think it would be nice to have something like this for Org-mode only. We could install our own SE-like site using askbot.org or osqa.net. As far as I see, the installation of askbot is not completely trivial but doable: http://askbot.org/doc/index.html The webserver (if it is Apache) would need mod_fcgi or mod_wsgi since askbot is based on Django and python. (see also: http://askbot.org/en/question/72/is-askbot-easy-to-install http://askbot.org/en/question/263/what-servers-and-configs-is-askbot-known-to-work http://askbot.org/en/question/33/is-my-shared-host-good-enough-for-django) It is still quite some work, I am aware of this. If it drains too much energy, it isn't worth it. But if we could get it off the ground, I think it would be a great addition to the Org community. At least there is nothing wrong in trying. Exactly. So this would be the next steps: 1. Download askbot, install askbot, configure askbot 2. configure the webserver 3. deploy askbot on the webserver Regards, Thomas 2011/7/21 Bastien b...@altern.org Hi Thomas, thanks for sharing this idea. Something like ask.orgmode.org with a StackOverflow interface would be very nice. I am copying Jason, http://orgmode.org webmaster, to make sure this would not add too much work for him. I am not afraid of fragmentation of information: as long as this new interface links to relevant primary sources of information (the manual, Worg, the mailing list), these source will be used. I'm more afraid of fragmentation of the _energy_ that people put in maintaining those primary sources. But at the end, I guess things will auto-regulate and the overall UI for finding information will improve. At least there is nothing wrong in trying. What is the next step? -- Bastien
Re: [O] Suggestion: Stackoverflow for Orgmode
Hi all, suvayu ali fatkasuvayu+li...@gmail.com writes: Why don't we use the org-mode tag on stackoverflow.com: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/org-mode This looks like the perfect solution without all the headaches. :) Indeed! Thanks Jason for setting http://ask.orgmode.org up. I updated the FAQ section in http://orgmode.org and advertized the http://ask.orgmode.org link. -- Bastien
Re: [O] Suggestion: Stackoverflow for Orgmode
Hi all, Bastien b...@gnu.org writes: I updated the FAQ section in http://orgmode.org and advertized the http://ask.orgmode.org link. I've also added a section to the Org FAQ listing the last five questions from StackOverflow: http://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#sec-1 I think this might be a good way to encourage people to contribute to answers on StackOverflow and to keep both area quite in sync. Let me know if you think it's relevant. Thanks, -- Bastien
Re: [O] Suggestion: Stackoverflow for Orgmode
On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 2:23 PM, Bastien b...@altern.org wrote: Hi all, Bastien b...@gnu.org writes: I updated the FAQ section in http://orgmode.org and advertized the http://ask.orgmode.org link. I've also added a section to the Org FAQ listing the last five questions from StackOverflow: http://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#sec-1 I think this might be a good way to encourage people to contribute to answers on StackOverflow and to keep both area quite in sync. Let me know if you think it's relevant. Absolutely. But what about sending once a week an automated email to the mailing list with the last not answered questions? That would keep the two even more in sync. I do not think that one can submit questions to stackoverflow via email? Rainer Thanks, -- Bastien -- Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany) Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology Stellenbosch University South Africa Tel : +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44 Cell: +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98 Fax (F): +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44 Fax (D):+49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44 email: rai...@krugs.de Skype: RMkrug
Re: [O] Suggestion: Stackoverflow for Orgmode
Hi Rainer, Rainer M Krug r.m.k...@gmail.com writes: Absolutely. But what about sending once a week an automated email to the mailing list with the last not answered questions? I'm not sure about this: in this case, will people answer on the mailing list or on SO? I'd rather have people answer on the ml, and point to those answers (or to Worg's sections) on SO. I see SO as a place for newcomers -- the more newcomers joining reading information on the mailing list / Worg, the better. That would keep the two even more in sync. I doubt this is realistic. Paying attention to questions on SO is fine, but IMHO keeping things as centralized as possible is a higher priority, let's try to avoid duplicate work! Is there someone here regularily trying to answer questions on SO? If so, that'd ideal: this person could make sure interesting questions/answers reach the right place any time. I do not think that one can submit questions to stackoverflow via email? I don't know... would be cool. Best, -- Bastien
Re: [O] Suggestion: Stackoverflow for Orgmode
Bastien b...@altern.org writes: Something like ask.orgmode.org with a StackOverflow interface would be very nice. I think this would be a great way to start a community-driven FAQ. Why don't we use the org-mode tag on stackoverflow.com: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/org-mode It's a fully-featured site with an already-established Org community (http://stackoverflow.com/tags/org-mode/topusers). We wouldn't have to upgrade the server's memory to support a new site, nor would we have to constantly update a web app due to security issues. Here's an Atom feed for new org-mode questions: http://stackoverflow.com/feeds/tag?tagnames=org-modesort=newest I created a redirect for ask.orgmode.org: http://ask.orgmode.org What do you think? Should we link to ask.orgmode.org from orgmode.org?
Re: [O] Suggestion: Stackoverflow for Orgmode
On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Jason Dunsmore emacs-orgm...@dunsmor.com wrote: Bastien b...@altern.org writes: Something like ask.orgmode.org with a StackOverflow interface would be very nice. I think this would be a great way to start a community-driven FAQ. Why don't we use the org-mode tag on stackoverflow.com: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/org-mode This looks like the perfect solution without all the headaches. :) -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free.
Re: [O] Suggestion: Stackoverflow for Orgmode
On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 9:15 AM, suvayu ali fatkasuvayu+li...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Jason Dunsmore emacs-orgm...@dunsmor.com wrote: Bastien b...@altern.org writes: Something like ask.orgmode.org with a StackOverflow interface would be very nice. I think this would be a great way to start a community-driven FAQ. Why don't we use the org-mode tag on stackoverflow.com: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/org-mode This looks like the perfect solution without all the headaches. :) That, and not sure anyone else noticed, but the org-mode area51 proposal was closed as a duplicate of Stack Overflow... so looks like this is the only remaining option :) The moderator suggested taking a look at this, http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2011/06/se-podcast-07/, which looks like it's proposing to do what has come up here -- follow things on S.O. via tags. John -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free.
Re: [O] Suggestion: Stackoverflow for Orgmode
The biggest advantage, IMO, is the aspect of self-organization: The biggest diasadvantage would be fragmentation of information. All information needs to have authoritative sources and archives. I believe the info manual, GNU mailing list and the Orgmode.org domain (of which Worg is but a part) are the right place for such archival references. I don't think anyone would object to having a secondary marketplace for trading of orgmode related tips and tricks. Jambunathan K. --
Re: [O] Suggestion: Stackoverflow for Orgmode
Jambunathan K kjambunathan at gmail.com writes: The biggest diasadvantage would be fragmentation of information. All information needs to have authoritative sources and archives. I believe the info manual, GNU mailing list and the Orgmode.org domain (of which Worg is but a part) are the right place for such archival references. Sure. But reading the manual from a to z or searching the mailing list for the right line of elisp is sometimes very slow if you need a quick solution. I am by no means suggesting that we should give up the established ways of archiving information or discussion, though. I simply think that something like ask.orgmode.org with a stackexchange-like interface could be very helpful for a larger portion of users. It may happen that redundant information is produced by this idea but I think it will make orgmode more usable and less intimidating for new users. Something similar has happened before: the orgguide was Carsten's solution for the complex 200+ pages of the original manual. Besides I find that useful information is already pretty much fragmented across the threads of this mailing list (there is also a lot of bugfixing, regression reports and feature request going on). Sure, the knowledge is there somewhere but it would be nice to see what works and what is useful without having to try everything for yourself. I don't think anyone would object to having a secondary marketplace for trading of orgmode related tips and tricks. My question is if anyone on this list would actively participate to get it off the ground. And I think that hosting it on the orgmode.org-server would make a lot of sense. Is somebody here interested in starting this?
Re: [O] Suggestion: Stackoverflow for Orgmode
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Thomas Renkert tunnelbl...@quantentunnel.de wrote: Jambunathan K kjambunathan at gmail.com writes: The biggest diasadvantage would be fragmentation of information. All information needs to have authoritative sources and archives. I believe the info manual, GNU mailing list and the Orgmode.org domain (of which Worg is but a part) are the right place for such archival references. Sure. But reading the manual from a to z or searching the mailing list for the right line of elisp is sometimes very slow if you need a quick solution. I am by no means suggesting that we should give up the established ways of archiving information or discussion, though. I simply think that something like ask.orgmode.org with a stackexchange-like interface could be very helpful for a larger portion of users. It may happen that redundant information is produced by this idea but I think it will make orgmode more usable and less intimidating for new users. Something similar has happened before: the orgguide was Carsten's solution for the complex 200+ pages of the original manual. Besides I find that useful information is already pretty much fragmented across the threads of this mailing list (there is also a lot of bugfixing, regression reports and feature request going on). Sure, the knowledge is there somewhere but it would be nice to see what works and what is useful without having to try everything for yourself. I don't think anyone would object to having a secondary marketplace for trading of orgmode related tips and tricks. My question is if anyone on this list would actively participate to get it off the ground. And I think that hosting it on the orgmode.org-server would make a lot of sense. Is somebody here interested in starting this? Not starting - but I think it is a really good idea. Nothing against worg (an absolutely fantastic resource) - but I consider the way that worg is edited as more static then a dynamic FAQ page, which this would result in if I understand correctly. I would definitely add to it. I agree that this should not replace any of the great resources of org, but it could supplement as a more dynamic format then worg, but more structured then a mailing list. Cheers, Rainer -- Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany) Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology Stellenbosch University South Africa Tel : +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44 Cell: +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98 Fax (F): +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44 Fax (D):+49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44 email: rai...@krugs.de Skype: RMkrug
Re: [O] Suggestion: Stackoverflow for Orgmode
Thomas Renkert tunnelbl...@quantentunnel.de writes: I noticed that - as more people with a diverse range of background knowledge start to use orgmode - the mailing list is getting more and more difficult to navigate: I do agree that the volume of mails did considerably increase. a lot of threads are long and winding and many of the posts are basic questions from beginners and questions about special use cases or scenarios from more experienced users. At this point, however, I have a different impression. Yes, there are some long threads, but those seem to be rarley those interesting for new users while setting up their orgworld. Those threads are *imho* usually about new features that need discussion, clarification etc.: a ping pong of ideas. When subareas emerge, tags like [BABEL] or now [CALFW] make it easy to parse them out if you are not interested. OTOH, I am used to dealing with mailing lists and I find them very convenient. Others may very well have a different impression. Is this worth a poll in a new thread? An idea: Many of you may be familiar with the QA-Sites www.stackoverflow.com or www.superuser.com. There are already some questions about org on stackoverflow, if people are interested in this format, they can already go there. Setting this up seems overkill to me, especially, because we have Worg to collect the nuggets of all threads. If newcomers find the volume on this list overwhelming, I think splitting it into a -dev and a -user list would be the next logical step, first. However, I am not opposed to this idea when others agree it would be usefull. I can't really see myself using it so far, but that may very well change. Memnon
Re: [O] Suggestion: Stackoverflow for Orgmode
I think on the whole that this is a good idea; I do wonder if it might harmfully divide the effort on the documentation rather than provide a complement to the manual and guide, but I think the best way to find out is just to try it and see what people use. If the existing FOSS designed to fill this niche are unacceptable to our purposes we can always make our own. Such a site would not be complicated to build, and I would be very willing to put in effort toward this goal. I do not know Elisp very well, which prevents me from contributing much to this project even though I depend heavily on Org-mode, but web programming I can contribute. -- A. Ryan Reynolds
Re: [O] Suggestion: Stackoverflow for Orgmode
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:53 AM, Rainer M Krug r.m.k...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Thomas Renkert tunnelbl...@quantentunnel.de wrote: Jambunathan K kjambunathan at gmail.com writes: The biggest diasadvantage would be fragmentation of information. All information needs to have authoritative sources and archives. I believe the info manual, GNU mailing list and the Orgmode.org domain (of which Worg is but a part) are the right place for such archival references. Sure. But reading the manual from a to z or searching the mailing list for the right line of elisp is sometimes very slow if you need a quick solution. I am by no means suggesting that we should give up the established ways of archiving information or discussion, though. I simply think that something like ask.orgmode.org with a stackexchange-like interface could be very helpful for a larger portion of users. It may happen that redundant information is produced by this idea but I think it will make orgmode more usable and less intimidating for new users. Something similar has happened before: the orgguide was Carsten's solution for the complex 200+ pages of the original manual. Besides I find that useful information is already pretty much fragmented across the threads of this mailing list (there is also a lot of bugfixing, regression reports and feature request going on). Sure, the knowledge is there somewhere but it would be nice to see what works and what is useful without having to try everything for yourself. I don't think anyone would object to having a secondary marketplace for trading of orgmode related tips and tricks. My question is if anyone on this list would actively participate to get it off the ground. And I think that hosting it on the orgmode.org-server would make a lot of sense. Is somebody here interested in starting this? Not starting - but I think it is a really good idea. Nothing against worg (an absolutely fantastic resource) - but I consider the way that worg is edited as more static then a dynamic FAQ page, which this would result in if I understand correctly. I would definitely add to it. I agree that this should not replace any of the great resources of org, but it could supplement as a more dynamic format then worg, but more structured then a mailing list. I'd definitely participate. I keep an emacs label in gmail with the mailing list items where I've specifically had a question resolved. I have to refer to them often. Sometimes my searches for the mailing list exchange I *know* happened result in diddly because I just can't remember the title of the email dialog. I think something like SE would be fantastic, and in my opinion is a much more robust than mailing lists *once the answer is determined.* Mailing lists are great for hashing out discussions and getting input... but I think a more concrete (but still modify-able) repository would be better once a tangible outcome from the mailing list has resulted. Honestly, I don't see much difference than doing the same thing with a wiki... but SE is infinitely more fun to contribute to. I could see the benefit of SE's multiple answers format as well, since my observation on the mailing list has often been that many users do things differently. I'd be open to starting this in Area51 if there is significant interest. I don't think it's all that difficult and it's fairly self-fulfilling; if users commit/participate... it launches. If not, it won't. John Cheers, Rainer -- Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany) Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology Stellenbosch University South Africa Tel : +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44 Cell: +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98 Fax (F): +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44 Fax (D): +49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44 email: rai...@krugs.de Skype: RMkrug
Re: [O] Suggestion: Stackoverflow for Orgmode
Personally I feel that the StackExchange interface is more accessible to newcomers than mailing lists or Worg. Its a great way to ask a questions and get an answer. The mailing list is better at having conversations about a topic. Worg is a great resource for hand-curated advice, which will always be useful. I would definitely use a StackExchange-like application for Org if it existed. On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 6:45 AM, Memnon Anon gegendosenflei...@googlemail.com wrote: Thomas Renkert tunnelbl...@quantentunnel.de writes: I noticed that - as more people with a diverse range of background knowledge start to use orgmode - the mailing list is getting more and more difficult to navigate: I do agree that the volume of mails did considerably increase. a lot of threads are long and winding and many of the posts are basic questions from beginners and questions about special use cases or scenarios from more experienced users. At this point, however, I have a different impression. Yes, there are some long threads, but those seem to be rarley those interesting for new users while setting up their orgworld. Those threads are *imho* usually about new features that need discussion, clarification etc.: a ping pong of ideas. When subareas emerge, tags like [BABEL] or now [CALFW] make it easy to parse them out if you are not interested. OTOH, I am used to dealing with mailing lists and I find them very convenient. Others may very well have a different impression. Is this worth a poll in a new thread? An idea: Many of you may be familiar with the QA-Sites www.stackoverflow.com or www.superuser.com. There are already some questions about org on stackoverflow, if people are interested in this format, they can already go there. Setting this up seems overkill to me, especially, because we have Worg to collect the nuggets of all threads. If newcomers find the volume on this list overwhelming, I think splitting it into a -dev and a -user list would be the next logical step, first. However, I am not opposed to this idea when others agree it would be usefull. I can't really see myself using it so far, but that may very well change. Memnon -- -Rehan
Re: [O] Suggestion: Stackoverflow for Orgmode
On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:02:03 -0700, Rehan Iftikhar rehan.iftik...@gmail.com said: RI Personally I feel that the StackExchange interface is more accessible RI to newcomers than mailing lists or Worg. Its a great way to ask a RI questions and get an answer. (and it's worth noting that org-mode questions already get asked on the existing Stack Overflow: http://stackoverflow.com/search?q=org ) RI The mailing list is better at having conversations about a topic. Worg RI is a great resource for hand-curated advice, which will always be RI useful. RI I would definitely use a StackExchange-like application for Org if it existed. RI On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 6:45 AM, Memnon Anon RI gegendosenflei...@googlemail.com wrote: Thomas Renkert tunnelbl...@quantentunnel.de writes: I noticed that - as more people with a diverse range of background knowledge start to use orgmode - the mailing list is getting more and more difficult to navigate: I do agree that the volume of mails did considerably increase. a lot of threads are long and winding and many of the posts are basic questions from beginners and questions about special use cases or scenarios from more experienced users. At this point, however, I have a different impression. Yes, there are some long threads, but those seem to be rarley those interesting for new users while setting up their orgworld. Those threads are *imho* usually about new features that need discussion, clarification etc.: a ping pong of ideas. When subareas emerge, tags like [BABEL] or now [CALFW] make it easy to parse them out if you are not interested. OTOH, I am used to dealing with mailing lists and I find them very convenient. Others may very well have a different impression. Is this worth a poll in a new thread? An idea: Many of you may be familiar with the QA-Sites www.stackoverflow.com or www.superuser.com. There are already some questions about org on stackoverflow, if people are interested in this format, they can already go there. Setting this up seems overkill to me, especially, because we have Worg to collect the nuggets of all threads. If newcomers find the volume on this list overwhelming, I think splitting it into a -dev and a -user list would be the next logical step, first. However, I am not opposed to this idea when others agree it would be usefull. I can't really see myself using it so far, but that may very well change. Memnon RI -- RI -Rehan -- Wes Hardaker My Pictures: http://capturedonearth.com/ My Thoughts: http://pontifications.hardakers.net/
