Re: [O] org-depend: dependencies between TODO entries in different files

[Samuel Wales]

lovely that we are thinking of new stuff for org-depend.

On 12/12/16, Karl Voit  wrote:
>> it can make a remote task get scheduled upon doneifying current task?

for me this would be the killer feature.

-- 
The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com

The disease DOES progress.  MANY people have died from it.  And
ANYBODY can get it.

Denmark: free Karina Hansen NOW.
  UPDATE 2016-10: home, but not fully free

Re: [O] org-depend: dependencies between TODO entries in different files

[Christophe Schockaert]

Hi all,


Karl Voit writes:
> Oh my goodness - free wishes for org-depend? Christmas is rather
> early this year! ;-)
Indeed, that's wonderful ^^

> OK, let's do some brain storming ...
As a summary from my sight point, I am totally inline with Karl for the
feature set:

  - Personnally, I am ready to care about state consistency myself, so
letting the user responsible for it
  
  - Same wish about scheduling arbitrary actions by making use of IDs:
either absolute or relative
  
  - I would also have use of different state transitions: DONE => TODO ;
CANCELLED => CANCELLED


Besides that, I wonder if/how we could automate the following course of
actions:

  - let have point on an entry
  
  - create a new "TODO-like" entry as a link to that entry
  
  - assign an ID to both entries: lets say "ID-original" and "ID-duplicate"

  - in the new entry: define a BLOCKER property set on "ID-original"

  - in the original entry: define a TRIGGER property set as
ID-duplicate(DONE)


At first sight:

- the new entry could be created besides the original or in a file where
  it is ready to refile

- the TODO state in the new entry could be set with a default, I think
  it is so easy to switch afterwards with Org keystrokes

- the triggered state might better be a parameter (possibly a customized
  default as "TODO"): otherwise, it would be necessary to go inside the
  drawer to change it


Currently, I am doing all this manually, quite often. I am not sure if a
capture template can offer that. It's on my plan to look after it for
some time, but I didn't do it yet. The tricky part is the cross-link
creation and storage. So, as we are discussion on the topic, I just
share what is on my mind about it :)

I wish it can bring something useful,
Feedbacks are welcome,


Christophe

-- 
--->  mailto:r3vli...@citadels.eu
Once it's perfectly aimed, the flying arrow goes straight to its target.
Thus, don't worry when things go right.
There will be enough time to worry about if they go wrong.
Then, it's time to fire a new arrow towards another direction.
Don't sink.  Adapt yourself !  The archer has to shoot accurately and quickly.
[Words of Erenthar, the bowman ranger] <---

Re: [O] org-depend: dependencies between TODO entries in different files

[Karl Voit]

* Samuel Wales  wrote:
> On 12/12/16, Carsten Dominik  wrote:
>> broadly about what it should be able to do.  Is there specific
>> functionality it also should support, besides the TRIGGER/BLOCKER functions
>> it has right now?
>
> it can make a remote task get scheduled upon doneifying current task?

When I understand
http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/org-depend.html
correctly, this is only possible via chain-siblings-scheduled and
this is not that easy for arbitrary tasks using an ID-property.

I mentioned this as a nice-to-have feature in my previous email.

-- 
mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode:
   > get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs <

https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on github

Re: [O] org-depend: dependencies between TODO entries in different files

[Samuel Wales]

On 12/12/16, Carsten Dominik  wrote:
> broadly about what it should be able to do.  Is there specific
> functionality it also should support, besides the TRIGGER/BLOCKER functions
> it has right now?

it can make a remote task get scheduled upon doneifying current task?

Re: [O] org-depend: dependencies between TODO entries in different files

[Karl Voit]

* Carsten Dominik  wrote:
>
> Dear all,

Hi Carsten,

> Since ord-depend was only proof of concept, we could also think a bit more
> broadly about what it should be able to do.  Is there specific
> functionality it also should support, besides the TRIGGER/BLOCKER functions
> it has right now?

Oh my goodness - free wishes for org-depend? Christmas is rather
early this year! ;-)

OK, let's do some brain storming ...

For reference purposes: http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/org-depend.html

> One issue to deal with is, that in different files, a different set of TODO
> keywords might be active, so if a TRIGGER entry changes a TODO state, and
> that entry lives in a different file, it falls onto the user to make sure
> that the required state is valid in both files.

>From my point of view: due to the fact that the user has to state
the TRIGGER keyword manually, it is up to the user that this makes
any sense. So far, nothing prevents me from typing:

:TRIGGER: foo-bar(INVALIDSTATUS)


> Any ides what is missing or might be useful?

Well, this comes a bit unprepared (I might be able to come up with
more feature possibilities to org-depend when thinking about it) but
I'd say that following workflows would be nice to discuss about:


Being able to specify SCHEDULED-dates *and* next status for
arbitrary IDs.

For example:

** NEXT Asking the client about XY
:PROPERTIES:
:TRIGGER: send-task(NEXT,2016-12-23)
:END:

** Send XY to client
:PROPERTIES:
:ID: send-task
:END:

Well the syntax might be chosen differently. What I want to achieve
is that when changing the "Asking" task to a finished state, the
"Send" task gets a fixed SCHEDULED value and the status NEXT. 

Additional: the two tasks are not necessarily in the same file or
within the same sub-hierarchy. So the «inherit scheduled date»
feature via chain-siblings-scheduled does not work in most cases to
me.


Another one:

** NEXT Asking the client about XY
SCHEDULED: <2016-12-12>
:PROPERTIES:
:TRIGGER: send-task(NEXT,.+3d)
:END:

** Send XY to client
:PROPERTIES:
:ID: send-task
:END:

When the "Asking" task is set to a finished state, the "Send" task
will be scheduled three days in the future and gets the status NEXT.

The usual date-syntax applies here as well: +3d (3 days from maybe
the SCHEDULED(?) date of the "Asking" task), .+3d (3 days from now),
and so forth.


Another one: having the possibility to define "Send" state changes
that rely on the "Asking" state. For example: If I cancel the
"Asking" task, the "Send" state should be cancelled as well because
it makes no sense without the first one.

-- 
mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode:
   > get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs <

https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on github

Re: [O] org-depend: dependencies between TODO entries in different files

[Carsten Dominik]

Dear all,

thanks for your feedback.

Since ord-depend was only proof of concept, we could also think a bit more
broadly about what it should be able to do.  Is there specific
functionality it also should support, besides the TRIGGER/BLOCKER functions
it has right now?

One issue to deal with is, that in different files, a different set of TODO
keywords might be active, so if a TRIGGER entry changes a TODO state, and
that entry lives in a different file, it falls onto the user to make sure
that the required state is valid in both files.

Any ides what is missing or might be useful?

Carsten

On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 12:57 PM, Karl Voit  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> * Christophe Schockaert  wrote:
> >
> > Carsten Dominik writes:
> >
> >> I can take a look at that.  Unless Nicolas already is working on it, of
> >> course.
> >>
> >> [...]  Is anyone besides Karl using it regularly?  I don't want to
> >> break anything by changing it.
>
> Good point.
>
> However, I don't think that there is a situation where
> «ID-dependencies are found in all/agenda files» instead of
> «ID-dependencies are found only within the same file» does break a
> workflow. Using ID-dependencies from another file simply result in
> false behavior in the current situation and not in a different
> behavior.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> > I started to use it a few months ago, and I am using it more and more
> > when I have to gather a bunch of existing actions and give a follow-up
> > for such a subset. Or when I need to refer to a subaction not directly
> > related, before I can go further in a broader project.
>
> I am using it heavily to implement workflows I could not do
> otherwise: TRIGGER and BLOCKER.
>
> For me, org-depend functionality was the reason to begin with
> org-mode in the first place. And it is still one of my top three
> org-mode features. When I show org-depend in my org-mode workshops,
> I still get very positive feedback.
>
> > And thank you Karl for asking !
>
> You're welcome.
>
> --
> mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode:
>> get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs <
>
> https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on
> github
>
>
>

Re: [O] org-depend: dependencies between TODO entries in different files

[Karl Voit]

Hi,

* Christophe Schockaert  wrote:
>
> Carsten Dominik writes:
>
>> I can take a look at that.  Unless Nicolas already is working on it, of
>> course.
>>
>> [...]  Is anyone besides Karl using it regularly?  I don't want to
>> break anything by changing it.

Good point.

However, I don't think that there is a situation where
«ID-dependencies are found in all/agenda files» instead of
«ID-dependencies are found only within the same file» does break a
workflow. Using ID-dependencies from another file simply result in
false behavior in the current situation and not in a different
behavior.

Just my 2 cents.

> I started to use it a few months ago, and I am using it more and more
> when I have to gather a bunch of existing actions and give a follow-up
> for such a subset. Or when I need to refer to a subaction not directly
> related, before I can go further in a broader project.

I am using it heavily to implement workflows I could not do
otherwise: TRIGGER and BLOCKER.

For me, org-depend functionality was the reason to begin with
org-mode in the first place. And it is still one of my top three
org-mode features. When I show org-depend in my org-mode workshops,
I still get very positive feedback.

> And thank you Karl for asking !

You're welcome.

-- 
mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode:
   > get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs <

https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on github

Re: [O] org-depend: dependencies between TODO entries in different files

[Jorge Morais Neto]

On 8 December 2016 at 08:16, Jorge Morais Neto  wrote:
> On 8 December 2016 at 04:44, Carsten Dominik  wrote:
>> One additional point is, of course, that org-depend is not part of the core,
>> but was written as a proof of concept.  Is anyone besides Karl using it
>> regularly?  I don't want to break anything by changing it.
> I use it (in a very small number of entries).
I would like to add that, AFAIK, currently I only use org-depend to depend on
entries in the same Org document.  But someday I will probably want to depend
on entries in a different document.

Regards
-- 
• I am Brazilian.  I hope my English is correct and I welcome corrections.
• Please adopt free formats like PDF, ODF, Org, LaTeX, Opus, WebM and 7z.
• Free (as in free speech) software for Android: https://f-droid.org/

Re: [O] org-depend: dependencies between TODO entries in different files

[Christophe Schockaert]

Carsten Dominik writes:

> Hi,
>
> I can take a look at that.  Unless Nicolas already is working on it, of
> course.
>
> [...]  Is anyone besides Karl using it regularly?  I don't want to
> break anything by changing it.
Hi Carsten,


I started to use it a few months ago, and I am using it more and more
when I have to gather a bunch of existing actions and give a follow-up
for such a subset. Or when I need to refer to a subaction not directly
related, before I can go further in a broader project.

As Karl, I do split dependencies across files, so this would be a nice
improvement.

I considered to give a try for making a change, but I know only very
basic ELisp, and I lack of time to experiment, so I lived with it. I
would be greatful if you would do it for us :)

And thank you Karl for asking !

> Maybe it would, in fact, be better to first look in the local file and
> then try org-id-find.
>
> Carsten
I like that idea.

Thank you for taking care of it (and for creating Org ^^),
Kind Regards,

Christophe

> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Karl Voit  wrote:
>
>> * Nicolas Goaziou  wrote:
>> > Hello,
>>
>> Hello Nicolas,
>>
>> > Karl Voit  writes:
>> >
>> >> Function org-depend-block-todo uses org-find-entry-with-id (from
>> >> org.el) which is using org-find-property which starts with
>> >> (goto-char (point-min)) not jumping to any other org-mode buffer.
>> >>
>> >> Is there a reason behind this design choice?
>> >
>> > What design choice?
>>
>> ... that org-depend is using the current document only.
>>
>> > 1. That `org-find-property' only searches in the current document?
>> >
>> > 2. That `org-depend-block-todo' uses `org-find-entry-with-id' instead of
>> >e.g., `org-id-find'?
>> >
>> > Property API assumes properties are local to the document. When you
>> > search for property "FOO", it means "FOO" in the current buffer, not
>> > "FOO" is some other random Org file somewhere in your hard-disk.
>>
>> Ah, good to know.
>>
>> Is there a document, where someone is able to learn those
>> "meta-patterns" like "Property API assumes properties are local to
>> the document"?
>>
>> > ID property is special for that matter.
>>
>> Clearly, when you take a look at "id:example-id".
>>
>> > Whenever Org sets such a property, it updates a location database
>> > (which means ID properties shouldn't be changed "manually").
>>
>> Being curious: since I only set IDs manually (by typing them into
>> the PROPERTIES drawer by myself), do I have to take care of
>> "updating some database"?
>>
>> > So, ID property can efficiently be used to refer to remote
>> > documents.
>>
>> ... which I find ultimately useful to get a "personal wiki".
>>
>> > As a consequence, it may be useful to use `org-id-find' and
>> > fall-back to `org-find-property' in `org-depend-block-todo'.
>> >
>> >> Who is the current maintainer of org-depend.el? Carsten ist
>> >> listed as author in the header.
>> >
>> > I guess nobody. Do you want to take care of it?
>>
>> Trust me: with my very limited knowledge of Elisp and Org-mode
>> internals, you do not want to see a commit from my side that is
>> something other than a typo fix or documentation. ;-)
>>
>> Can you do us the favour?
>>
>> Thanks for your insight!
>>
>> --
>> mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode:
>>> get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs <
>>
>> https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on
>> github
>>
>>
>>


-- 
--->  mailto:r3vli...@citadels.eu
Once it's perfectly aimed, the flying arrow goes straight to its target.
Thus, don't worry when things go right.
There will be enough time to worry about if they go wrong.
Then, it's time to fire a new arrow towards another direction.
Don't sink.  Adapt yourself !  The archer has to shoot accurately and quickly.
[Words of Erenthar, the bowman ranger] <---

Re: [O] org-depend: dependencies between TODO entries in different files

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Carsten Dominik  writes:

> I can take a look at that.  Unless Nicolas already is working on it, of
> course.

It's somewhere on my (rather large) TODO list, but I'm not currently
working on it.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: [O] org-depend: dependencies between TODO entries in different files

[Samuel Loury]

Jorge Morais Neto  writes:

> On 8 December 2016 at 04:44, Carsten Dominik  wrote:
>> One additional point is, of course, that org-depend is not part of the core,
>> but was written as a proof of concept.  Is anyone besides Karl using it
>> regularly?  I don't want to break anything by changing it.
> I use it (in a very small number of entries).

Me too. but I don't mind it to break.

-- 
Konubinix
GPG Key: 7439106A
Fingerprint: 5993 BE7A DA65 E2D9 06CE  5C36 75D2 3CED 7439 106A

Re: [O] org-depend: dependencies between TODO entries in different files

[Jorge Morais Neto]

On 8 December 2016 at 04:44, Carsten Dominik  wrote:
> One additional point is, of course, that org-depend is not part of the core,
> but was written as a proof of concept.  Is anyone besides Karl using it
> regularly?  I don't want to break anything by changing it.
I use it (in a very small number of entries).

Regards
-- 
• I am Brazilian.  I hope my English is correct and I welcome corrections.
• Please adopt free formats like PDF, ODF, Org, LaTeX, Opus, WebM and 7z.
• Free (as in free speech) software for Android: https://f-droid.org/

Re: [O] org-depend: dependencies between TODO entries in different files

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi,

I can take a look at that.  Unless Nicolas already is working on it, of
course.

One additional point is, of course, that org-depend is not part of the
core, but was written as a proof of concept.  Is anyone besides Karl using
it regularly?  I don't want to break anything by changing it.  Maybe it
would, in fact, be better to first look in the local file and then try
org-id-find.

Carsten

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Karl Voit  wrote:

> * Nicolas Goaziou  wrote:
> > Hello,
>
> Hello Nicolas,
>
> > Karl Voit  writes:
> >
> >> Function org-depend-block-todo uses org-find-entry-with-id (from
> >> org.el) which is using org-find-property which starts with
> >> (goto-char (point-min)) not jumping to any other org-mode buffer.
> >>
> >> Is there a reason behind this design choice?
> >
> > What design choice?
>
> ... that org-depend is using the current document only.
>
> > 1. That `org-find-property' only searches in the current document?
> >
> > 2. That `org-depend-block-todo' uses `org-find-entry-with-id' instead of
> >e.g., `org-id-find'?
> >
> > Property API assumes properties are local to the document. When you
> > search for property "FOO", it means "FOO" in the current buffer, not
> > "FOO" is some other random Org file somewhere in your hard-disk.
>
> Ah, good to know.
>
> Is there a document, where someone is able to learn those
> "meta-patterns" like "Property API assumes properties are local to
> the document"?
>
> > ID property is special for that matter.
>
> Clearly, when you take a look at "id:example-id".
>
> > Whenever Org sets such a property, it updates a location database
> > (which means ID properties shouldn't be changed "manually").
>
> Being curious: since I only set IDs manually (by typing them into
> the PROPERTIES drawer by myself), do I have to take care of
> "updating some database"?
>
> > So, ID property can efficiently be used to refer to remote
> > documents.
>
> ... which I find ultimately useful to get a "personal wiki".
>
> > As a consequence, it may be useful to use `org-id-find' and
> > fall-back to `org-find-property' in `org-depend-block-todo'.
> >
> >> Who is the current maintainer of org-depend.el? Carsten ist
> >> listed as author in the header.
> >
> > I guess nobody. Do you want to take care of it?
>
> Trust me: with my very limited knowledge of Elisp and Org-mode
> internals, you do not want to see a commit from my side that is
> something other than a typo fix or documentation. ;-)
>
> Can you do us the favour?
>
> Thanks for your insight!
>
> --
> mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode:
>> get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs <
>
> https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on
> github
>
>
>

Re: [O] org-depend: dependencies between TODO entries in different files

[Karl Voit]

* Nicolas Goaziou  wrote:
> Hello,

Hello Nicolas,

> Karl Voit  writes:
>
>> Function org-depend-block-todo uses org-find-entry-with-id (from
>> org.el) which is using org-find-property which starts with
>> (goto-char (point-min)) not jumping to any other org-mode buffer.
>>
>> Is there a reason behind this design choice?
>
> What design choice?

... that org-depend is using the current document only.

> 1. That `org-find-property' only searches in the current document?
>
> 2. That `org-depend-block-todo' uses `org-find-entry-with-id' instead of
>e.g., `org-id-find'?
>
> Property API assumes properties are local to the document. When you
> search for property "FOO", it means "FOO" in the current buffer, not
> "FOO" is some other random Org file somewhere in your hard-disk.

Ah, good to know.

Is there a document, where someone is able to learn those
"meta-patterns" like "Property API assumes properties are local to
the document"?

> ID property is special for that matter. 

Clearly, when you take a look at "id:example-id".

> Whenever Org sets such a property, it updates a location database
> (which means ID properties shouldn't be changed "manually"). 

Being curious: since I only set IDs manually (by typing them into
the PROPERTIES drawer by myself), do I have to take care of
"updating some database"?

> So, ID property can efficiently be used to refer to remote
> documents.

... which I find ultimately useful to get a "personal wiki".

> As a consequence, it may be useful to use `org-id-find' and
> fall-back to `org-find-property' in `org-depend-block-todo'.
>
>> Who is the current maintainer of org-depend.el? Carsten ist
>> listed as author in the header.
>
> I guess nobody. Do you want to take care of it?

Trust me: with my very limited knowledge of Elisp and Org-mode
internals, you do not want to see a commit from my side that is
something other than a typo fix or documentation. ;-)

Can you do us the favour?

Thanks for your insight!

-- 
mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode:
   > get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs <

https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on github

Re: [O] org-depend: dependencies between TODO entries in different files

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Karl Voit  writes:

> On [1] LinuxFag asked why org-depend.el does not work with
> dependencies of headings in different Org-mode files. This is also a
> very annoying limitation to me since I have many Org-mode files in
> my org-agenda-files and I also don't want to limit myself to use
> dependencies within a single file only.
>
> I analyzed my situation in the code:
>
> Org-mode version 8.3.4 (release_8.3.4-33-gd522fc) 
> org-depend.el Version: 0.08
>
> Function org-depend-block-todo uses org-find-entry-with-id (from
> org.el) which is using org-find-property which starts with
> (goto-char (point-min)) not jumping to any other org-mode buffer.
>
>
> Is there a reason behind this design choice?

What design choice?

1. That `org-find-property' only searches in the current document?

2. That `org-depend-block-todo' uses `org-find-entry-with-id' instead of
   e.g., `org-id-find'?

Property API assumes properties are local to the document. When you
search for property "FOO", it means "FOO" in the current buffer, not
"FOO" is some other random Org file somewhere in your hard-disk.

ID property is special for that matter. Whenever Org sets such
a property, it updates a location database (which means ID properties
shouldn't be changed "manually"). So, ID property can efficiently be
used to refer to remote documents.

As a consequence, it may be useful to use `org-id-find' and fall-back to
`org-find-property' in `org-depend-block-todo'.

> Who is the current maintainer of org-depend.el? Carsten ist listed
> as author in the header.

I guess nobody. Do you want to take care of it?


Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou