Re: Re-installing org-mode packages due to annoying message

[Alan E. Davis]

Perhaps I'll try it, just for fun.  I'm pretty happy with my layout and
theme, everything, but maybe I could get some ideas.

Thank you,
Alan

On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 7:39 AM Thomas S. Dye  wrote:

> Aloha Alan,
>
> Alan E. Davis  writes:
>
>
> > It is interesting that an old timer like yourself would reach
> > for
> > Spacemacs.  I haven't, mostly because I don't think I need the
> > modal model
> > of Vi.  The keybindings of Emacs or so convenient and
> > intelligent I find
> > them to be enough.  Here's where I might have spent more time in
> > the early
> > days learning the basics better.  One of the things I like about
> > Emacs is
> > that I can dance around a page of text, in a manner that the
> > commercially
> > produced text editors and word processors I know have not dared
> > to
> > implement.  We are locked in to a dumbed down interface in all
> > the software
> > we encounter.  I cannot think of one example just now, but maybe
> > the way
> > one can move back and forth over characters and words.  I never
> > learned Vi,
> > except to be able to edit a simple config file if need be.
> >
> > I know I am over my head, and I have been so for the 30-ish
> > years I have
> > been using Emacs and for the time I have used Org-mode.  It is
> > more than I
> > can do to keep up with the newer complexities that are cropping
> > up.  Yet,
> > just like the plain text files, and the LaTeX source for my one
> > publication, a lexicon of animal names, they live on while
> > documents using
> > the high priced tools are not longer readable or editable.  And
> > through all
> > the changes, my little utilities for editing things that only I
> > could
> > probably care about, and I would not expect anyone to care to
> > learn---they
> > still work today.  I love it!
> >
> FYI, from another old-timer in over his head, Spacemacs has a simple
> option to enable Emacs key bindings.  You don't need to use the modal
> bindings.
>
> hth,
> Tom
>
> --
> Thomas S. Dye
> https://tsdye.online/tsdye
>
>

-- 
  "As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we *should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others* by any invention of ours, and
this we should do freely and generously."   ---Benjamin Franklin

  "This ignorance about the limits of the earth's ability to absorb
   pollutants should be reason enough for caution in the release
   of polluting substances."
   ---Meadows et al.   1972.  Limits to Growth
.
(p. 81)

Re: Re-installing org-mode packages due to annoying message

[Thomas S. Dye]

Aloha Alan,

Alan E. Davis  writes:


It is interesting that an old timer like yourself would reach 
for
Spacemacs.  I haven't, mostly because I don't think I need the 
modal model
of Vi.  The keybindings of Emacs or so convenient and 
intelligent I find
them to be enough.  Here's where I might have spent more time in 
the early
days learning the basics better.  One of the things I like about 
Emacs is
that I can dance around a page of text, in a manner that the 
commercially
produced text editors and word processors I know have not dared 
to
implement.  We are locked in to a dumbed down interface in all 
the software
we encounter.  I cannot think of one example just now, but maybe 
the way
one can move back and forth over characters and words.  I never 
learned Vi,

except to be able to edit a simple config file if need be.

I know I am over my head, and I have been so for the 30-ish 
years I have
been using Emacs and for the time I have used Org-mode.  It is 
more than I
can do to keep up with the newer complexities that are cropping 
up.  Yet,

just like the plain text files, and the LaTeX source for my one
publication, a lexicon of animal names, they live on while 
documents using
the high priced tools are not longer readable or editable.  And 
through all
the changes, my little utilities for editing things that only I 
could
probably care about, and I would not expect anyone to care to 
learn---they

still work today.  I love it!


FYI, from another old-timer in over his head, Spacemacs has a simple option to 
enable Emacs key bindings.  You don't need to use the modal bindings.

hth,
Tom

--
Thomas S. Dye
https://tsdye.online/tsdye

Re: Re-installing org-mode packages due to annoying message

[Alan E. Davis]

Tim:

I appreciate your thoughtful response.  You went to a great deal of
trouble, and answered, I think, most of the important questions I have with
this issue.

I use Arch Linux, and have been installing the AUR emacs-git package.
Sure, I don't need to go beyond the current stable package.  For now, I
do.  I have a few org-mode ancillary packages installed, some I am still
uncertain of, and some of which are more essential.

I have indeed installed some packages and also some code into my init file,
without understanding what they do, because I want to test whether they
will work for my needs.  I plan to steal your initialization for use of
packages, because mine is out of date, and I think this may solve the
problem of the annoying message I refer to.  The message is to the effect
that one needs to install Org-mode from a different repo, because after
version 9.5 (I think) the existing elpa repo will not be updated.  I hope
your simple code will solve that. I may just follow your advice and declare
emac init bankruptcy (If I understand that correctly), and start by copying
over the functions I have written and the configurations I have found
essential.  I have actually done that in the past.

I appreciate that Emacs exists.  I cannot overstate my appreciation for the
work that Richard Stallman and the multitudes of programmers have put into
making this tool and making it better.  I see the need for cleaning out the
garage once in a while, and I understand that Org-mode will be better
served by consolidating the repositories.  I have just not been able to
understand the shop talk, I guess.  Your example is really helpful.

It is interesting that an old timer like yourself would reach for
Spacemacs.  I haven't, mostly because I don't think I need the modal model
of Vi.  The keybindings of Emacs or so convenient and intelligent I find
them to be enough.  Here's where I might have spent more time in the early
days learning the basics better.  One of the things I like about Emacs is
that I can dance around a page of text, in a manner that the commercially
produced text editors and word processors I know have not dared to
implement.  We are locked in to a dumbed down interface in all the software
we encounter.  I cannot think of one example just now, but maybe the way
one can move back and forth over characters and words.  I never learned Vi,
except to be able to edit a simple config file if need be.

I know I am over my head, and I have been so for the 30-ish years I have
been using Emacs and for the time I have used Org-mode.  It is more than I
can do to keep up with the newer complexities that are cropping up.  Yet,
just like the plain text files, and the LaTeX source for my one
publication, a lexicon of animal names, they live on while documents using
the high priced tools are not longer readable or editable.  And through all
the changes, my little utilities for editing things that only I could
probably care about, and I would not expect anyone to care to learn---they
still work today.  I love it!

I appreciate your help.

Alan Davis

On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 2:38 PM Tim Cross  wrote:

>
> "Alan E. Davis"  writes:
>
> > I have just spent an hour trying to figure out what's going on with
> ELPA, GNU ELPA, NONGNU ELPA packages.  I am lost.
> >
> > A plethora of methods exist for installing org-mode and other packages;
> it is unnecessary to list them, even if I could.
> >
> > I've been using Emacs and Org-mode for many years.  I am not interested
> in spending an hour of my time to learn a new way to install
> > something that has been working well for me.  I may not use org-mode
> with the facility of a programmer who can whip off a quick utility
> > in emacs lisp, but I have come to depend on the basic tools as a core of
> my work flow.
> >
> > I have tried "use package",  but I would prefer something
> straightforward, like just list-packages then install.  I don't understand
> how to
> > set up my init file (dot emacs) for various package repos.  It was
> working, that's all I needed.  Now I get a 5 second delay each time I use
> > org-mode.  I cannot seem to find the information I need to fix this.  On
> reddit, on emacs wiki, on this list, I cannot find the magic search
> > term.  I see advice like "the maintainer has written a very clear
> explanation of the issue" but,this very clear explanation does not help
> > me understand what I need to do.
> >
> > I guess I need a formula, but I have cut and pasted two or three
> different things into the top of my .init file.  Perhaps I need to start
> > again, but my .init file has been taking root for nearly 30 years; it's
> burned into my muscle memory.
> >
> > I hope I will never have to write another email like this to get help
> for something that should be simple.  Maybe I will now have to install
> > from git.  I think I am already too far out at sea to abandon the
> packages approach.  I guess it serves me right for stepping off the
> > beach.
> >
>

Re: Re-installing org-mode packages due to annoying message

[Tim Cross]

"Alan E. Davis"  writes:

> I have just spent an hour trying to figure out what's going on with ELPA, GNU 
> ELPA, NONGNU ELPA packages.  I am lost.
>
> A plethora of methods exist for installing org-mode and other packages; it is 
> unnecessary to list them, even if I could.
>
> I've been using Emacs and Org-mode for many years.  I am not interested in 
> spending an hour of my time to learn a new way to install
> something that has been working well for me.  I may not use org-mode with the 
> facility of a programmer who can whip off a quick utility
> in emacs lisp, but I have come to depend on the basic tools as a core of my 
> work flow.
>
> I have tried "use package",  but I would prefer something straightforward, 
> like just list-packages then install.  I don't understand how to
> set up my init file (dot emacs) for various package repos.  It was working, 
> that's all I needed.  Now I get a 5 second delay each time I use
> org-mode.  I cannot seem to find the information I need to fix this.  On 
> reddit, on emacs wiki, on this list, I cannot find the magic search
> term.  I see advice like "the maintainer has written a very clear explanation 
> of the issue" but,this very clear explanation does not help
> me understand what I need to do.
>
> I guess I need a formula, but I have cut and pasted two or three different 
> things into the top of my .init file.  Perhaps I need to start
> again, but my .init file has been taking root for nearly 30 years; it's 
> burned into my muscle memory.
>
> I hope I will never have to write another email like this to get help for 
> something that should be simple.  Maybe I will now have to install
> from git.  I think I am already too far out at sea to abandon the packages 
> approach.  I guess it serves me right for stepping off the
> beach.
>

Hi Alan,

sorry your feeling so frustrated. Unfortunately, in order to be able to
maintain org mode with the limited resources available, it has been
necessary to make some changes and as with most transitions, there can
be some rough bits to get through initially. In the long term, things
should actually be simpler with respect to org mode as there will be
no need to add any repositories to use org mode or the org contgrib
packages as they will be available in the default package.el
configuration (Emacs 28 has both GNU ELPA and the new NONGNU
repositories defined by default). 

It is difficult to provide you with any concrete help as you did not
include some important information in your message. Things which would
help include

- What Emacs version are you using? Emacs comes with org built-in, so if
  your running a reasonably recent version of Emacs, perhaps you don't
  actually need to install org at all?

- Do you use any org mode extensions or add on packages (those which are
  not part of org mode or the org mode contrib packages)?

- Is there a reason you need the latest version of org mode rather than
  just using the version which comes bundled in Emacs? Many people just
  stick with the version which is bundled with Emacs as it is stable and
  requires no additional installation steps.

- What is the annoying message you reference in the subject but failed
  to include in the body of your message? 

The good news is that while there are many different ways of installing
packages, you really don't need any of them except those that come with
Emacs. I don't use straight, eget, or any of the many other package
management solutions for Emacs. I use just package.el and use-package,
which works on top of package.el (it can use straight and other package
managers, but your not required to). This gives you exactly what you
want - M-x list-packages, from where you can just select the packages
you want to install and install them.

I would not advise installing from git. This will likely just make
things even more complicated as then you also need to make sure your
building from the right branch/tag - you don't want to run org from the
head of the main branch as this is the development branch, which is
likely not as stable as you want. 

Assuming you are running the current Emacs stable release (Emacs 27.2),
the only repository you have to add in your init file is the new nongnu
repository. You no longer require the orgmode.org/elpa repository. As
the GNU ELPA repository has been standard in Emacs for the last few
releases, you don't need to add anything in order to get the current org
mode. If you use some of the contrib packages, then you now need to
install the nongnu repository. This repository will be configured by
default for the next Emacs release (Emacs 28), but for versions prior to
that, you need to add https://elpa.nongnu.org/nongnu/ to the package
archives list. I have the following in my init.el file

(require 'package)

(setq package-archives '(("nongnu" . "https://elpa.nongnu.org/nongnu/;)
 ("elpa" . "https://elpa.gnu.org/packages/;)
 

Re-installing org-mode packages due to annoying message

[Alan E. Davis]

I have just spent an hour trying to figure out what's going on with ELPA,
GNU ELPA, NONGNU ELPA packages.  I am lost.

A plethora of methods exist for installing org-mode and other packages; it
is unnecessary to list them, even if I could.

I've been using Emacs and Org-mode for many years.  I am not interested in
spending an hour of my time to learn a new way to install something that
has been working well for me.  I may not use org-mode with the facility of
a programmer who can whip off a quick utility in emacs lisp, but I have
come to depend on the basic tools as a core of my work flow.

I have tried "use package",  but I would prefer something straightforward,
like just list-packages then install.  I don't understand how to set up my
init file (dot emacs) for various package repos.  It was working, that's
all I needed.  Now I get a 5 second delay each time I use org-mode.  I
cannot seem to find the information I need to fix this.  On reddit, on
emacs wiki, on this list, I cannot find the magic search term.  I see
advice like "the maintainer has written a very clear explanation of the
issue" but,this very clear explanation does not help me understand what I
need to do.

I guess I need a formula, but I have cut and pasted two or three different
things into the top of my .init file.  Perhaps I need to start again, but
my .init file has been taking root for nearly 30 years; it's burned into my
muscle memory.

I hope I will never have to write another email like this to get help for
something that should be simple.  Maybe I will now have to install from
git.  I think I am already too far out at sea to abandon the packages
approach.  I guess it serves me right for stepping off the beach.


Alan Davis

-- 
  "As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we *should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others* by any invention of ours, and
this we should do freely and generously."   ---Benjamin Franklin

  "This ignorance about the limits of the earth's ability to absorb
   pollutants should be reason enough for caution in the release
   of polluting substances."
   ---Meadows et al.   1972.  Limits to Growth
.
(p. 81)