EMC certification of off-road vehicle air conditioners, heaters and auxiliary heaters
I am looking for information on applicable directives/standards for EMC certification of air conditioners, booth rooftop and underhood; air conditioner/heaters and auxiliary electric heaters for off-road (eg farm, mining vehicles, boats). All equipments operate on 27.2 VDC or less. I looked at the generic light industrial specs. but they do not apply to battery powered apparatus. EN 55014/55104 are not applicable to devices used exclusively in vehicles. CISPR 12 is referenced in 55014; I do not presently have a copy of CISPR 12, but from its description, it does not seem appropriate. Any thoughts? Doug Frazee Compliance Engineer (410) 266-1793 (410) 266-1853 FAX doug_fra...@atk.com
Re: ERGONOMICS/Color Red Restrictions
UMBDENSTOCK, DON wrote: Does anyone know if there are any formal restrictions to using red colored lights for front panel displays and indicators? Is there a harmonized European standard or regulation or a specific national regulation that requires the restriction of the color red for warning, danger, etc. It seems it may have been a German ergonomic requirement before various standards were harmonized. Can anyone shed some light on this issue? Don Umbdenstock Sensormatic The Bellcore telco standards define RED as a major alarm. This policy was used for telco equipment sold to Europe. FYI, Ten years ago, I brought a product liability lawyer into a company to educate and review from the legal side of things. Good experience. Expensive. His recommendation world-wide was RED = DO NOT TOUCH, STOP, EMERGENCY, SOMETHING'S WRONG, etc... GREEN = GO, EVERYTHING IS FINE, etc... This was the result of a disagreement about the color lens used for an AC ON/OFF switch used anywhere. For the ON/OFF switch, it was decided to use GREEN for power ON. The comments and opinions stated herein are mine alone, and do not reflect those of my employer.
Re: ERGONOMICS/Color Red Restrictions
IEC 73 covers colors of indicator lights and displays. Red is reserved as an emergency or critical safety color. However, some standards (such as IEC 950) allow red indicator lights if there is no confusion as to their meaning. Usually panel indicator lights are labeled so this eliminates the confusion. Patty Elliot TUV Rheinland of N.A. (619) 792-2770 ell...@tuv.com Personal opinions, not corporate At 02:30 PM 1/22/97 -0500, UMBDENSTOCK, DON wrote: Does anyone know if there are any formal restrictions to using red colored lights for front panel displays and indicators? Is there a harmonized European standard or regulation or a specific national regulation that requires the restriction of the color red for warning, danger, etc. It seems it may have been a German ergonomic requirement before various standards were harmonized. Can anyone shed some light on this issue? Don Umbdenstock Sensormatic
ERGONOMICS/Color Red Restrictions
From: V. Gasse, Product Safety Authority.TEL 49-(0)7031-16-6796 IBM Germany, Technical Relations...FAX 49-(0)7031-16-6916 e-mail: ga...@de.ibm.com What has been said about the use of red indicators in Standards like IEC 73 and IEC 950 is correct. Here Red Indicators are allowed, if it is clear that safety is not involved. However, some testhouses in Germany have restricted the use of the color red only to be used as safety indicator, because only if used exclusively in this sense, red is meaningful as a safety relevant indication. This interpretation is based on a German Safety Directive VBG 125. Attempts to achieve harmonisation within other EU countries have been made and are ongoing. Does anyone know if there are any formal restrictions to using red colored lights for front panel displays and indicators? Is there a harmonized European standard or regulation or a specific national regulation that requires the restriction of the color red for warning, danger, etc. It seems it may have been a German ergonomic requirement before various standards were harmonized. Can anyone shed some light on this issue? Don Umbdenstock Sensormatic End of mail text Additional SMTP headers from original mail item follow: Received: from ruebert.ieee.org by E-MAIL.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Wed, 22 Jan 97 16:49:09 EST Received: (from daemon¹localhost) by ruebert.ieee.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA1032 for emc-pstc-list; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 14:39:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: c=US%a=_%p=Sensormatic%l=SENSORMATI/SFLAEXCHAN/00018084¹flgwyex1. ensormatic.com X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-emc-pstc¹majordomo.ieee.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: UMBDENSTOCK, DON UMBDENSTOC¹Sensormatic.com X-Resent-To: Multiple Recipients emc-pstc¹majordomo.ieee.org X-Listname: emc-pstc X-List-Description: Product Safety Tech. Committee, EMC Society X-Info: Help requests to emc-pstc-request¹majordomo.ieee.org X-Info: ÜUnðSubscribe requests to majordomo¹majordomo.ieee.org X-Moderator-Address: emc-pstc-approval¹majordomo.ieee.org Mit freundlichen Gruessen/Best regards, V. Gasse
Re: EU Directive on Measuring Instruments
Richard Woods wo...@sensormatic.com wrote: I understand that there is a directive concerning measuring instruments? Does anyone know the directive number? Does anyone know the scope of the directive? G'Day! I looked up my copy of the May 1996 ...Links between Products, Directives and Standards... and could not find any specific Directive, so either it doesn't exist or it's later than March/April 96. The only Directive listed against Measuring Instruments (mostly analogue type) and Measuring devices (mostly meters) was the LVD and EMC ones. The nearest I got was: 71/316/EEC - Measuring Instruments and methods for metrological Control. This has been amended three times by Directives 72/427/EEC, 83/575/EEC, and 87/355/EEC. Sorry, that's all I could find out... -- Alan Hudson email: hud...@msim.co.uk
Requirements for Brazil
Hello All, Is anyone familiar with EMC and Product Safety requirements in Brazil. Please provide any Standards, government contacts or anything else of relevance. Thanks in Advance. Regards, Jody Leber j...@ltgservices.com http://www.ltgservices.com LTG Services Suite 103 11940 Alpharetta Highway Alpharetta, GA 30201 (770)772-4299 Fax: (770)772-4297
Re[2]: Measuring AC
I suspect (but don't know for sure) that the accuracy of a transformer is the way it performs, relative to it's spec's, rather than relative to its history. That is, a _given_ transformer may be extremely accurate once calibrated, but the _initial_ accuracy may be difficult to predict. Adding some calibration mechanism on each board can be expensive, but if you want a highly accurate reading of line voltage, you may have to do this anyway. Jonathan Malton S-S Technologies, Inc. Kitchener, Ontario, Canada I'm not so arrogant as to suggest that my opinions are corporate policy __ Reply Separator _ Subject: re: Measuring AC Author: Max mkel...@chekov.corp.es.com at mailway List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date:1/22/97 4:10 PM I want to thank everyone for the great information I got in response to my question about measuring AC. One thing I hadn't thought about with my off-the-cuff idea of simply using a voltage divider is the issue of isolating the AC return and the circuit board return. Not isolating these raises a variety of issues that I'm not prepared to deal with. So, I think they need to be isolated. The method suggested by Jonathan Malton strikes me as a really elegant and highly accurate solution to the problem. This involves the use of a voltage controlled oscillator and an optoisolator. Using op-amps for rectifying diodes is also a great idea I think. The problem of providing a separate off-line power supply for the VCO, sort of takes some of the fun out of the idea, but this problem is, nevertheless manageable. I'm also going to review IEC950 and IEC1010 as suggested by Horst Haug. The basic problem with transformers is that it's not possible to get a specification on their accuracy. In talking to Signal Transformer, they give me a verbal specification of +/-2% accuracy (no load). Advanced Components Industries, OTH, provide a verbal specification of +/-10%. The difference might be in the size of the transformers. The Signal transformer is relatively large and relatively expensive. The Advanced Transformer is of the PCB type and is very small (0.6 inches high). The lady at Advanced seems to be very knowledgeable and says that the accuracy is not simply a function of turns ratio, but also depends on the wire and core construction. She claims that they can calculate transformer accuracy simply by looking at the wire and core specifications. Max mkel...@es.com
RE: Regulatory compliance training for students
In addition, I'll bet that if you were to survey the industry, there would be a high percentage of Regulatory Engineers who have Associate Engineering degrees or degrees other than EE. Historically, it has been my observation that product safety is not necessarily a well recognized engineering discipline, and while I enjoy it, several engineers have commented that they would rather do digital or analog design than safety. Just my $0.02 Rick Busche rbus...@es.com -- From: COLON KELLY[SMTP:col...@symbol.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 1997 12:27 PM To:gabriel_...@notesgw.hns.com Cc:emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Regulatory compliance training for students Gabriel- I agree with your position that regulatory work is not done only those with an associate's degree (I personally have a BSEE as do many of my colleagues). It should be noted that even though UL will not grant the title of Project Engineer to someone without a bachelor in engineering, the Project Engineer and the Engineering Associate (one with an associate's degree) will perform the same type of project evaluations. Just my two cents worth. Regards, Kelly Colon Kelly Colon Regulatory Engineer Regulatory Engineering Symbol Technologies, Inc. phone: 516 738 3480 fax: 516 738 3318 e-mail: col...@symbol.com The above opinions are entirely my own!
Fwd: ERGONOMICS/Color Red Restrictions
Don,
I am not sure what industry you are in, but for Industrial Machinery, I know
of two standards addressing the use of red colored indicator lights. Hope
this helps:
EN 60204-1 - Safety of Machinery - Electrical equipment of machines, Part 1,
Table 3: Color for indicator lights and their meanings with respect to
condition of the machine. (Note: I have modified the layout in order to fit
into this email)
Colour: RED
Meaning: Emergency
Explanation: Hazardous condition
Action by operator: Immediate action to deal with hazardous condition (e.g.,
by operating emergency stop)
Examples of application: Pressure/temperature out of safe limits; Voltage
drop; Breakdown; Overtravel of a stop position.
NFPA 79 - Electrical Standard for Industry Machinery, Table 8 - Color coding
for pushbuttons, indicator (pilot) lights, and illuminated pushbuttons:
(Note: I have only included the Red color for indicator (pilot) lights and
again modified the format to fit into this email)
Color: RED
Device Type: Pilot Light
Typical Function: Danger or alarm, abnormal condition requiring immediate
attention
Examples: Indicatoin that a protective device has stopped the machine, e.g.,
overload
By the way, I don't interpret the above color code to be directly applicable
for visual display terminals, although I wouldn't put it pass third parties
to interpret it so.
Regards.
Tin
In a message dated 97-01-22 15:54:58 EST, umbdens...@sensormatic.com
(UMBDENSTOCK, DON) writes:
Does anyone know if there are any formal restrictions to using red
colored lights for front panel displays and indicators?
Is there a harmonized European standard or regulation or a specific
national regulation that requires the restriction of the color red for
warning, danger, etc.
-
Forwarded message:
From: umbdens...@sensormatic.com (UMBDENSTOCK, DON)
Sender: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Reply-to: umbdens...@sensormatic.com (UMBDENSTOCK, DON)
To: emc-p...@ieee.org ('EMC-PSTC Discussion Group')
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: 97-01-22 15:54:58 EST
Does anyone know if there are any formal restrictions to using red
colored lights for front panel displays and indicators?
Is there a harmonized European standard or regulation or a specific
national regulation that requires the restriction of the color red for
warning, danger, etc.
It seems it may have been a German ergonomic requirement before various
standards were harmonized. Can anyone shed some light on this issue?
Don Umbdenstock
Sensormatic
FW: RE: Taiwan EMC update
Sorry, I'm resending this. It seems it didn't go through. ---Original Message--- Hello everyone, the info about Taiwan is very interesting. Can you please also specify re the levels (i.e. do they require class A or class B for ITE)? thanks - Name: moshe valdman E-mail: mvald...@mail.netvision.net.il List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: 01/18/97 Time: 18:40:55 This message was sent by Chameleon - --End of Original Message--
SV: Re: ERGONOMICS/Color Red Restriction
I've experienced that a German GS-certification body did not allow red coloured functional buttons on Information Technology Equipment (ITE) even though IEC950 amd.3 clause 1.7.8.2 allows you to do so. They based their verdict on a descision in an organisation called EK14 (which I'm sure that the GS members could tell you more about). The EK14 descisions should be common practice for all the GS members as far as I know. Lars Hjerpseth Certification Engineer Nemko, Norway lars.hjerps...@nemko.telemax.no The above opinions and experiences are entirely my own and does not reflect any official Nemko opinion ! -- Fra: ell...@tuv.com Til: umbdens...@sensormatic.com; emc-p...@ieee.org Emne: Re: ERGONOMICS/Color Red Restrictions Dato: 23. januar 1997 10:38 Microsoft Mail v3.0 IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note From: ell...@tuv.com To: umbdens...@sensormatic.com emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: ERGONOMICS/Color Red Restrictions List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: 1997-01-23 10:38 Priority: 3 -- IEC 73 covers colors of indicator lights and displays. Red is reserved as an emergency or critical safety color. However, some standards (such as IEC 950) allow red indicator lights if there is no confusion as to their meaning. Usually panel indicator lights are labeled so this eliminates the confusion. Patty Elliot TUV Rheinland of N.A. (619) 792-2770 ell...@tuv.com Personal opinions, not corporate At 02:30 PM 1/22/97 -0500, UMBDENSTOCK, DON wrote: Does anyone know if there are any formal restrictions to using red colored lights for front panel displays and indicators? Is there a harmonized European standard or regulation or a specific national regulation that requires the restriction of the color red for warning, danger, etc. It seems it may have been a German ergonomic requirement before various standards were harmonized. Can anyone shed some light on this issue? Don Umbdenstock Sensormatic
Re: Regulatory compliance training for students
Why is the talk centered around safety? Safety specs are construction and performance. They tell you what to do. No secret there. Emissions specs are performance specs. They say nothing about construction. Only one course I've seen for emi/emc offered at a school was a graduate class one semester. Even still, some things some people call 'fixes' have been 11th hour gasket/ferrite panic fixes as the primary emi control procedure. In fact, starting out in the field of emi/emc, all one can hope for to large extent are 'courses' sponsered by gasket/ferrite people who want you to improperly primary design so that you keep them in business. The comments and opinions stated herein are mine alone, and do not reflect those of my employer.
GTEM Cell Experiences?
EMC Folks, Does anyone use a GTEM Cell for Part 15 EMI testing? If so , would you share your experiences, in particular, bad experiences, problems, etc. The advertising tells all the benefits, but I am wondering about the downside. Thanks very much. -- Mike Donnelly donne...@agcs.comWD7M Standard disclaimer: These are my own words, not the Company's.
Re: Regulatory compliance training for students
cortland.richmond...@ccmailsmtp.ast.com wrote: had to snip some stuff the original question was whether courses in complying with regulations should be offered in college. This is a queston with many parts to it. If it's just safety, then no. If it's emi/emc, then maybe. If it's about just regulations, then no. Isn't this issue more an engineering ethics problem, and a social consequence of our work, than a problem of technical design? I would think this should permeate all engineering. Hopefully we're all ethical. Technical design is the other side of our work. Getting compliance designed in can be much harder than discovering when it is not. Actually, the opposite has been my experience. I must as a compliance engineer make myself a signatory to: printed circuit board layout, system layout, mechanical layout approvals, component approvals. I must also be a signatory for any ECRs that would effect changes to said layouts. Believe me, designing in at the beginning is much easier than finding out in some lab at 2:00AM. I've been on both sides. Alot of the above just cannot be taught in school. Regards, Doug The comments and opinions stated herein are mine alone, and do not reflect those of my employer.
Uncertainty
Rules are rules. Because we let NVLAP into the situation we now have a more ridged and rigorous certification system in the US than in Europe for some applications. If we are not careful how we implement the rules it will only get worse. There are many people in the government who have not been there and done that who want to design a system by which we all must live. Uncertainty is one of the issues. Michael Barge is on the ball and he has a good perspective. As I understand it most of you are applying Uncertainty too broadly. The rules should be applied only as they pertain to the certification requirements. For example, Europe has one application and the USA another. For minimum impact they should not be mixed. In the USA uncertainty only applies to calibration of test instruments and then only if you wish to become a NVLAP approved test lab. If we easily accept it for the entire EMC test protocol, NVLAP will gladly apply it to the entire certification procedure. Before we go off and rant an rave over this net, we should read the rules, understand what they say and know what the limitations are. Please read NIST Technical Note 1297 and note its applicability. It seems only the test labs are preaching accreditation, certification and Uncertainty while most of the producing companies just quietly integrate the testing into the quality process and leave it at that. I have news for the test labs. Trying to create a closed association with licensing and other impedances to block competition only raises the price of service. It does not improve quality of service and the competition will not be reduced. Why make it hard on yourselves? Dave George Unisys Regulatory Compliance
Re: Re[2]: Measuring AC
% % % I suspect (but don't know for sure) that the accuracy of a transformer is % the way it performs, relative to it's spec's, rather than relative to its % history. That is, a _given_ transformer may be extremely accurate once % calibrated, but the _initial_ accuracy may be difficult to predict. Yes, that's my understanding also. A manufacturer, for instance, could, perhaps buy two separate batches of cores (for use with one batch of wire) and all of the voltages from the transformers made with the first batch would be extremely close together and all of the voltages from the transformer made with the second batch would be extremely close together, but the delta between the two different transformer batches could vary by as much as 20%. With 10V transformers, for instance, batch number 1 might result in voltages of 9V +/- .1% (just guessing) and batch number 2 might result in voltages of 11V +/- .1% % Adding % some calibration mechanism on each board can be expensive, but if you want % a highly accurate reading of line voltage, you may have to do this anyway. Yes, I expect that a calibration procedure would result in extremely accurate measurements, but would require measurement of the output of each transformer. % % Jonathan Malton % S-S Technologies, Inc. % Kitchener, Ontario, Canada % % I'm not so arrogant as to suggest that my opinions are corporate policy % % % Max Kelson mkel...@es.com
