Car Audio Amplifiers

1999-05-06 Thread Brian Greaney 
To All;

Does anyone out there know what EU Directives, EMC and Safety standards
would apply to a Audio Amplifier intended to be used in an automobile?

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Brian A. Greaney
Senior Engineer
NEMKO Compliance West
(619) 755-5525 x206
bgrea...@nemkocw.com


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RE: Precompliance Testing

1999-05-06 Thread Robert Bonsen 
Hi folks,

The company mentioned, SARA, builds what they call a distributed RF
analyzer named CASSPER. They have been working on it for a while now,
demoed it at a couple of shows, and to the best of my knowledge the system
started to ship recently. In the data sheets I analyzed, mention was made
of background noise cancellation techniques by using two time and frequency
synchronized receivers, one configured as the "normal" receiver and one as
a reference receiver. The time and frequency sync between the two receivers
allows for coherent simultaneous measurements of the reference signal and
the measuring signal, hence allowing the system to dynamically reduce the
noise level in the measurement. So far the data sheets... By the way, this
noise cancellation technique will not work on ordinary receivers and
spectrum analyzers because the time/frequency synchronization, which cannot
be achieved with "ordinary" equipment, is essential.

In theory this works great, but as with all noise/spurious signal
cancellation techniques (common in the RCS and antenna measurement world)
using a variety of mathematical principles, there will be practical
limitations. Also, one of the drawbacks is that you are required to
purchase another receiver for this technique to work. And of course this
type of receiver with noise cancellation technique is not the kind of
device the standards have made provisions for, so the question is if the
data will ever be acceptable for compliance measurements per the standards.

CASSPER is a very interesting device, very useful for a wide variety of RF
applications. I would like to get my hands on one soon to tinker with it
and find out exactly what its potential is. The company mentions as
applications pre-compliance regulatory testing and EUT debugging, but as
indicated it is not usable for compliance testing (yet?). 

Reference: http://www.sara.com/cassper

Regards,
-Robert

Robert Bonsen
Principal Consultant
Orion Scientific
email: rbon...@orionscientific.com
URL:   http://www.orionscientific.com
phone: (512) 347 7393; FAX: (512) 328 9240


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FW: ETS 300 328

1999-05-06 Thread UMBDENSTOCK, DON 
Senton GmbH is a test lab in Germany that is certified for ETS 300328
testing.  Contact Johann Roidt at 

Senton GmbH
EMI/EMC Test Center
Aeussere Fruehlingsstrasse 45
D - 94315 Straubing
Germany

49 - 9421/5522 13

j.ro...@senton.de


Hope this helps.

Don Umbdenstock
Sensormatic



> > --
> > From:   DVVENTL Lizette de Vries-Vente[SMTP:dvve...@mail.sabs.co.za]
> > Reply To:   DVVENTL Lizette de Vries-Vente
> > Sent:   Thursday, May 06, 1999 10:47 AM
> > To: emc-p...@ieee.org
> > Subject:ETS 300 328
> > 
> > Hi Group
> > 
> > I have a client who needs to have ETS 300 328 type approval testing
> done. 
> >  It is some kind of tag that uses 2.4 or 5.8 GHz RX frequencies.  The
> lab 
> > also needs to be accredited for this specification by the national 
> > accreditation body of the country.
> > 
> > Can anybody make suggestions for European or US labs.  
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Lizette de Vries-Venter
> > SENIOR ENGINEER
> > Division of Electronics and Appliances
> > SABS
> > 
> > Tel : +27 12 428 6990
> > Fax : +27 12 428 6523
> > Email : dvve...@sabs.co.za
> > 
> > 
> > -
> > This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list.
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> > jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or
> > roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
> > 
> 
> 
> 

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RE: Take my Shield Room, Please!

1999-05-06 Thread Flinders, Randall 
The shield room in question has been promised to Desmond Frasier of Rhein 
Tech Labs.  Should Mr. Frasier decide not to take the shield room, I will 
contact those of you who also expressed interest in it.

--
Sincerely,

Randall T. Flinders
EMC Engineer
Emulex Network Systems
V: (714) 513-8012
F: (714) 513-8265
randall.flind...@emulex.com
__   __
__\ /__
__/ \__
E  M  U  L  E  X

Chairman
Orange County Chapter
IEEE EMC Society
r.flind...@ieee.org



--
From:   Flinders, Randall
Sent:   Wednesday, May 05, 1999 4:57 PM
To: 'emc-pstc'
Subject:Take my Shield Room, Please!

Greetings Compliance Professionals!

We happen to have a shield room we recently dismantled available to anyone 
who wants to come pick the thing up.  It is a single-walled, steel room 
with a standard size door.  The measurements of the chamber are 8 feet high 
by 12 feet wide by 16 feet long.  It is designed in such a way that it 
would need substantial modifications if you were to try and hang absorbers 
on the ceiling and/or walls.  The manufacturer of the chamber is unknown. 
 It is currently dismantled and stacked on a pallet in our shipping area.

Anyone interested in acquiring the chamber should contact me at the phone 
number / e-mail shown below.
--
Sincerely,

Randall T. Flinders
EMC Engineer
Emulex Network Systems
V: (714) 513-8012
F: (714) 513-8265
randall.flind...@emulex.com
__   __
__\ /__
__/ \__
E  M  U  L  E  X

Chairman
Orange County Chapter
IEEE EMC Society
r.flind...@ieee.org


<>

RE: Precompliance Testing

1999-05-06 Thread Flinders, Randall 
Sara will be demonstrating the Ambient Canceling System at the next Meeting 
of the Orange County Chapter of the IEEE EMC Society.   The date of the 
meeting will be June 24th, and the meeting will be held at Emulex 
Corporation in Costa Mesa.  Anyone interested in attending the 
demonstration should contact me at the phone number and/or e-mail shown 
below.
--
Sincerely,

Randall T. Flinders
EMC Engineer
Emulex Network Systems
V: (714) 513-8012
F: (714) 513-8265
randall.flind...@emulex.com
__   __
__\ /__
__/ \__
E  M  U  L  E  X

Chairman
Orange County Chapter
IEEE EMC Society
r.flind...@ieee.org



--
From:   Gorodetsky, Vitaly
Sent:   Thursday, May 06, 1999 9:06 AM
To: 'Aschenberg, Mat'; Gorodetsky, Vitaly; 'Flinders, Randall'; 'Hans 
Mellberg'; 'emc-pstc'
Cc: 'pparh...@sara.com'
Subject:RE: Precompliance Testing

It is simple and elegant patent pending solution  (Cassper Div. of SARA has
filed for patent). Contact Dr. Parviz Parhami of SARA :  pparh...@sara.com

> -Original Message-
> From: Aschenberg, Mat [SMTP:matt.aschenb...@echostar.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 8:31 AM
> To:   'Gorodetsky, Vitaly'; 'Flinders, Randall'; 'Hans Mellberg';
> 'emc-pstc'
> Subject:  RE: Precompliance Testing
>
> What would that method be?
> Mat
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From:   Gorodetsky, Vitaly [SMTP:vgorodet...@canoga.com]
> > Sent:   Wednesday, May 05, 1999 6:22 PM
> > To: 'Flinders, Randall'; 'Hans Mellberg'; 'emc-pstc'
> > Subject:RE: Precompliance Testing
> >
> > In stationary case, such as OATS, there's a relatively inexpensive way
> of
> > automatic cancelling ambients out .
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From:   randall.flind...@emulex.com
> > [SMTP:randall.flind...@emulex.com]
> > Sent:   Wednesday, May 05, 1999 12:23 PM
> > To: 'Hans Mellberg'; 'emc-pstc'
> > Subject:RE: Precompliance Testing
> >
> > I second that opinion.  My experience shows SEVERE ambient issues
> > with rooftop sites.
> > --
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Randall T. Flinders
> > EMC Engineer
> > Emulex Network Systems
> > V: (714) 513-8012
> > F: (714) 513-8265
> > randall.flind...@emulex.com
> > __   __
> > __\ /__
> > __/ \__
> > E  M  U  L  E  X
> >
> > Chairman
> > Orange County Chapter
> > IEEE EMC Society
> > r.flind...@ieee.org
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > From:   Hans Mellberg
> > Sent:   Wednesday, May 05, 1999 7:59 AM
> > To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; bogda...@pacbell.net;
> > Gary McInturff
> > Cc: 'Brent DeWitt'; Allen Tudor; emc-p...@ieee.org
> > Subject:Re: Precompliance Testing
> >
> >
> >
> > Before you put a rooftop OATS, (assuming you are not located
> > in Easter
> > Island or the Caribean Islands!) you are going to deal with
> > substantially higher ambient signals. It so happens that
> > when you need
> > a stronger signal, a common practice is to raise the
> > antenna! I have
> > battled those problems twice in my past and I would not
> > reccomend
> > rooftop OATS anymore.
> >
> >
> > --- bogda...@pacbell.net wrote:
> > > May I add a note of caution:
> > > It may be worthwhile to check the permissible
> > > loading of the roof, especially
> > > when you are in the Southwest where roofs are mostly
> > > for shade and a few drops
> > > of rain. I guess that you don't want to appear
> > > suddenly in the conference room
> > > below
> > > Bogdan.
> > >
> > > Gary McInturff wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'll agree with Brent, and others, the headaches
> > > of a metal room or the
> > > > metal studs et al, in a building are going to make
> > > you pull your hair out.
> > > > But there is an alternative to the parking lot.
> > > You may want to consider the
> > > > roof. The ground reference can be put up there as
> > > well, especially if you
> > > > are doing pre-compliance stuff. You don't have to
> > > give up parking space -
> > > > which is sure to irate somebody. The roof gets a
> > > little hot, but that only
> > > > gives you the opportunity to work in your cutoffs,
> > > and showing up to a
> > > > meeting with the suits dressed like this is always
> > > good for a laugh!
> > > > Gary
> > snip
> >
> > ===
> > Best Regards
> > Hans Mellberg
> > EMC Consultant
> > _
>

RE: Precompliance Testing

1999-05-06 Thread Gorodetsky, Vitaly 
I discussed the idea of two channel configuration fiber-optic-based
(critical trait: no additional rad. emissions) system with Dr. Parviz
Parhami of Cassper Div. of SARA, Inc.  I  learned later that SARA has filed
for a patent (it is patent pending).  The original system was developed for
some DoD applications.  It is inexpensive and rather elegant solution
considering availability of hardware from SARA. 
One of two antennas sould be positioned at, say, 10m (or 30m, as required)
from an EUT and the second antenna is placed at the predetermined distance
from the first, such that the emissions from the EUT would be relatively
negligible.  The rest, differential data processing, is obvious.  There are
some metrological issues to be resolved. 

For details, contact Dr. Parviz Parhami, e-mail: pparh...@sara.com.
Best Regards   

> -Original Message-
> From: ed.pr...@cubic.com [SMTP:ed.pr...@cubic.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 10:00 AM
> To:   Gorodetsky, Vitaly; 'emc-pstc'
> Subject:  RE: Precompliance Testing
> 
> Vitaly:
> 
> Could you describe your ideas about inexpensive OATS automatic ambient
> cancellation?
> 
> 
>   From: "Gorodetsky, Vitaly" 
>   Subject: RE: Precompliance Testing
>   Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:22:12 -0700 
>   To: "'Flinders, Randall'" , 'Hans Mellberg'
> , 'emc-pstc' 
> 
> 
> > In stationary case, such as OATS, there's a relatively inexpensive way
> of
> > automatic cancelling ambients out .
> 
> 
> --
> Ed Price
> ed.pr...@cubic.com
> Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab
> Cubic Defense Systems
> San Diego, CA.  USA
> 619-505-2780
> Date: 05/06/1999
> Time: 08:59:57
> Military & Avionics EMC Services Our Specialty
> Also Environmental / Metrology / Reliability
> --
> 

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Re: EMC Books

1999-05-06 Thread bma 
Jon,

I just visited your book store. Very pertinent comments on each book 
although brief. The first three books should be listed "must read" for EMC 
engineers. Suggestion for the book of "Printed Circuit Board Design 
Techniques for EMC Compliance", Mark I. Montrose, 1996: The newest edition 
seems to be 1998? The new edition added much more materials on Signal 
Integrity.

Barry
-
Original Text
From: "Jon D. Curtis" , on 5/6/99 8:02 AM:
Hi Ron,

I've posted reveiws of a number of EMC books at 
www.conformity.com/book_store.html

Disclosure: I also sell the books there.

ron_pick...@hypercom.com wrote:

>  To all,
>
>  I am interested in knowing (and maybe others are, too) about the really 
good
>  EMC books that are out and about. They may be practical, theoretical or
>  anywhere in between. Areas of interest are, but are not limited to PWBs,
>  backplanes and systems with considerations for design, troubleshooting, 
and
>  noise reduction.
>
>  For those having such handy references up on their shelves or just 
knowing of
>  any, please feel free to reply. Replies may be either posted on this 
forum or
>  sent to me privately. Either way, I will post the summary of results 
once the
>  responses die off.
>
>  BTW, I already know about a few books and will include those in the 
summary.
>
>  This list of EMC references will likely be a valuable asset to any EMC
>  professional, particularly those new to the game. Who knows, maybe we 
all might
>  benefit from such a list.
>
>  OK, let me have it/them.
>
>  Best regards,
>  Ron Pickard
>  ron_pick...@hypercom.com
>
> -
> This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list.
> To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org
> with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the
> quotes).  For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com,
> jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or
> roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).



--
Jon D. Curtis, PE

Curtis-Straus LLC j...@curtis-straus.com
Laboratory for EMC, Safety, NEBS, SEMI-S2 and Telecom
527 Great Roadvoice (978) 486-8880
Littleton, MA 01460   fax   (978) 486-8828
http://www.curtis-straus.com



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RE: Precompliance Testing

1999-05-06 Thread ed . price 
Vitaly:

Could you describe your ideas about inexpensive OATS automatic ambient 
cancellation?


  From: "Gorodetsky, Vitaly" 
  Subject: RE: Precompliance Testing
  Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:22:12 -0700 
  To: "'Flinders, Randall'" , 'Hans Mellberg' 
, 'emc-pstc' 


> In stationary case, such as OATS, there's a relatively inexpensive way of
> automatic cancelling ambients out .


--
Ed Price
ed.pr...@cubic.com
Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab
Cubic Defense Systems
San Diego, CA.  USA
619-505-2780
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: 05/06/1999
Time: 08:59:57
Military & Avionics EMC Services Our Specialty
Also Environmental / Metrology / Reliability
--



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RE: Precompliance Testing

1999-05-06 Thread Gorodetsky, Vitaly 
It is simple and elegant patent pending solution  (Cassper Div. of SARA has
filed for patent). Contact Dr. Parviz Parhami of SARA :  pparh...@sara.com 

> -Original Message-
> From: Aschenberg, Mat [SMTP:matt.aschenb...@echostar.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 8:31 AM
> To:   'Gorodetsky, Vitaly'; 'Flinders, Randall'; 'Hans Mellberg';
> 'emc-pstc'
> Subject:  RE: Precompliance Testing
> 
> What would that method be? 
> Mat
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From:   Gorodetsky, Vitaly [SMTP:vgorodet...@canoga.com]
> > Sent:   Wednesday, May 05, 1999 6:22 PM
> > To: 'Flinders, Randall'; 'Hans Mellberg'; 'emc-pstc'
> > Subject:RE: Precompliance Testing
> > 
> > In stationary case, such as OATS, there's a relatively inexpensive way
> of
> > automatic cancelling ambients out .
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From:   randall.flind...@emulex.com
> > [SMTP:randall.flind...@emulex.com]
> > Sent:   Wednesday, May 05, 1999 12:23 PM
> > To: 'Hans Mellberg'; 'emc-pstc'
> > Subject:RE: Precompliance Testing
> > 
> > I second that opinion.  My experience shows SEVERE ambient issues
> > with rooftop sites.
> > -- 
> > Sincerely,
> > 
> > Randall T. Flinders
> > EMC Engineer
> > Emulex Network Systems
> > V: (714) 513-8012
> > F: (714) 513-8265
> > randall.flind...@emulex.com
> > __   __
> > __\ /__
> > __/ \__
> > E  M  U  L  E  X
> > 
> > Chairman
> > Orange County Chapter
> > IEEE EMC Society
> > r.flind...@ieee.org
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > From:   Hans Mellberg
> > Sent:   Wednesday, May 05, 1999 7:59 AM
> > To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; bogda...@pacbell.net;
> > Gary McInturff
> > Cc: 'Brent DeWitt'; Allen Tudor; emc-p...@ieee.org
> > Subject:Re: Precompliance Testing
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Before you put a rooftop OATS, (assuming you are not located
> > in Easter
> > Island or the Caribean Islands!) you are going to deal with
> > substantially higher ambient signals. It so happens that
> > when you need
> > a stronger signal, a common practice is to raise the
> > antenna! I have
> > battled those problems twice in my past and I would not
> > reccomend
> > rooftop OATS anymore.
> > 
> > 
> > --- bogda...@pacbell.net wrote:
> > > May I add a note of caution:
> > > It may be worthwhile to check the permissible
> > > loading of the roof, especially
> > > when you are in the Southwest where roofs are mostly
> > > for shade and a few drops
> > > of rain. I guess that you don't want to appear
> > > suddenly in the conference room
> > > below
> > > Bogdan.
> > > 
> > > Gary McInturff wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I'll agree with Brent, and others, the headaches
> > > of a metal room or the
> > > > metal studs et al, in a building are going to make
> > > you pull your hair out.
> > > > But there is an alternative to the parking lot.
> > > You may want to consider the
> > > > roof. The ground reference can be put up there as
> > > well, especially if you
> > > > are doing pre-compliance stuff. You don't have to
> > > give up parking space -
> > > > which is sure to irate somebody. The roof gets a
> > > little hot, but that only
> > > > gives you the opportunity to work in your cutoffs,
> > > and showing up to a
> > > > meeting with the suits dressed like this is always
> > > good for a laugh!
> > > > Gary
> > snip
> > 
> > ===
> > Best Regards
> > Hans Mellberg
> > EMC Consultant
> > _
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> > 
> > 
> > -
> > This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list.
> > To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org
> > with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the
> > quotes).  For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com,
> > jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or
> > roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
> > 

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r

RE: EMC Resources on the web

1999-05-06 Thread Knighten, James L 
Randall,

For a starter, check out the following URL:

http://www.emclab.umr.edu/  

Jim

Dr. Jim Knightene-mail: jlknigh...@ieee.org
 
Senior Consulting Engineer
NCR
17095 Via del Campo
San Diego, CA 92127 http://www.ncr.com  
Tel: 619-485-2537
Fax: 619-485-3788


-Original Message-
From:   randall.flind...@emulex.com
[SMTP:randall.flind...@emulex.com]
Sent:   Wednesday, May 05, 1999 5:00 PM
To: 'emc-pstc'
Subject:EMC Resources on the web

Hello!  Greetings from Orange County!

I am interested in compiling a list of valuable EMC related
resources available on the web.  If you kind guys and gals out there could
address them to me, I will compile the results and post them for the group
all at once.

Thanks!
-- 
Sincerely,

Randall T. Flinders
EMC Engineer
Emulex Network Systems
V: (714) 513-8012
F: (714) 513-8265
randall.flind...@emulex.com
__   __
__\ /__
__/ \__
E  M  U  L  E  X

Chairman
Orange County Chapter
IEEE EMC Society
r.flind...@ieee.org



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RE: Precompliance Testing

1999-05-06 Thread Aschenberg, Mat 
What would that method be? 
Mat

> -Original Message-
> From: Gorodetsky, Vitaly [SMTP:vgorodet...@canoga.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 6:22 PM
> To:   'Flinders, Randall'; 'Hans Mellberg'; 'emc-pstc'
> Subject:  RE: Precompliance Testing
> 
> In stationary case, such as OATS, there's a relatively inexpensive way of
> automatic cancelling ambients out .
> 
>   -Original Message-
>   From:   randall.flind...@emulex.com
> [SMTP:randall.flind...@emulex.com]
>   Sent:   Wednesday, May 05, 1999 12:23 PM
>   To: 'Hans Mellberg'; 'emc-pstc'
>   Subject:RE: Precompliance Testing
> 
>   I second that opinion.  My experience shows SEVERE ambient issues
> with rooftop sites.
>   -- 
>   Sincerely,
> 
>   Randall T. Flinders
>   EMC Engineer
>   Emulex Network Systems
>   V: (714) 513-8012
>   F: (714) 513-8265
>   randall.flind...@emulex.com
>   __   __
>   __\ /__
>   __/ \__
>   E  M  U  L  E  X
> 
>   Chairman
>   Orange County Chapter
>   IEEE EMC Society
>   r.flind...@ieee.org
> 
> 
> 
>   --
>   From:   Hans Mellberg
>   Sent:   Wednesday, May 05, 1999 7:59 AM
>   To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; bogda...@pacbell.net;
> Gary McInturff
>   Cc: 'Brent DeWitt'; Allen Tudor; emc-p...@ieee.org
>   Subject:Re: Precompliance Testing
> 
> 
> 
>   Before you put a rooftop OATS, (assuming you are not located
> in Easter
>   Island or the Caribean Islands!) you are going to deal with
>   substantially higher ambient signals. It so happens that
> when you need
>   a stronger signal, a common practice is to raise the
> antenna! I have
>   battled those problems twice in my past and I would not
> reccomend
>   rooftop OATS anymore.
> 
> 
>   --- bogda...@pacbell.net wrote:
>   > May I add a note of caution:
>   > It may be worthwhile to check the permissible
>   > loading of the roof, especially
>   > when you are in the Southwest where roofs are mostly
>   > for shade and a few drops
>   > of rain. I guess that you don't want to appear
>   > suddenly in the conference room
>   > below
>   > Bogdan.
>   > 
>   > Gary McInturff wrote:
>   > 
>   > > I'll agree with Brent, and others, the headaches
>   > of a metal room or the
>   > > metal studs et al, in a building are going to make
>   > you pull your hair out.
>   > > But there is an alternative to the parking lot.
>   > You may want to consider the
>   > > roof. The ground reference can be put up there as
>   > well, especially if you
>   > > are doing pre-compliance stuff. You don't have to
>   > give up parking space -
>   > > which is sure to irate somebody. The roof gets a
>   > little hot, but that only
>   > > gives you the opportunity to work in your cutoffs,
>   > and showing up to a
>   > > meeting with the suits dressed like this is always
>   > good for a laugh!
>   > > Gary
>   snip
> 
>   ===
>   Best Regards
>   Hans Mellberg
>   EMC Consultant
>   _
>   Do You Yahoo!?
>   Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 
>   -
>   This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list.
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>   roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
> 

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Re: Characterizing a screen room

1999-05-06 Thread Cortland Richmond 
A reverberant chamber CAN be made to do service for precompliance; we did
at a former employer. However, one must rely on experience and trickery.

If you see a bump, move the antenna sideways a few feet. A reverberant
chamber will have few peaks more than 6 dB above the actual value, but many
deep, deep nulls, so you should move the antenna anyway. Test close; 1
meter. We ended up doing the testing with the operator inside the chamber,
which was convenient for rotating manual tables, and using an older HP
141-T mainframe analyzer as the digital ones required modification to make
them quiet enough. However, an 8590 only took a screen over the CRT and
refurbishing the existing gasket by turning it around.

We had to draw lines on the table for cable routing. Moving them away from
the "standard" placement caused large difference in radiated fields. but
this is PRE compliance, not the real thing. By using a standard cable set
and routing, we were able to do good "delta" testing with results that
proved out on later certification.

A few cones or tiles strategically placed can _reduce_ though not eliminate
resonances in the area of interest and this is always a help in reproducing
readings. Just don't move the cones after you get them set up.


Cortland

== Original Message Follows 

 >> Date:  05-May-99 08:52:12  MsgID: 1068-2224  ToID: 72146,373
From:  Patrick Lawler >INTERNET:plaw...@west.net
Subj:  Re: Characterizing a screen room
Chrg:  $0.00   Imp: Norm   Sens: StdReceipt: NoParts: 1


Thanks for the responses, everyone.

I was probably misleading when I used the phrase 'characterize a screen
room'.
It sounds too much like 'calibrate'.
I was (and still am) pessimistic that we can any get decent information
from a
screen room.  I was hoping to at least figure out a way to mark frequencies
where the room was unreliable.  Enough said.

In light of comments made (especially the one below that mentions 20dB
variations), it sounds like pre-scans to _discover_ problem spots are
invalid
as well.
- If you saw a bump, it may be a reflection/resonance.
- If you saw a quiet area of spectrum, it may be a null.

It sounds like the process should be:
1) Discover frequencies by going to an OATS and doing a valid scan.
2) Put the same test setup in the screen room, and move it around until you
saw
the same relative amplitudes (ignore the absolute amplitudes). Mark the
location of that exact test setup!
3) Work on the unit to reduce the relative amplitudes.

BTW, I am going to try measurements in the parking lot.  If a screen room
isn't
purchased, there should be lots of money available for lounge chairs and
sun
screen (I live in Southern California).

On Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:14:38 -0500, Patrick Lawler 
wrote:
>At 04:21 PM 4/27/99 GMT, Robert Bonsen 
wrote:
>>My company is planning to purchase a screen room for radiated emissions
>>precompliance testing.
>>
>>I'm aware that reflections can cause resonances and drastically influence
>>readings.  What kind of testing could I do to characterize the room
(aside
>>from simple experience)?
>>
>The simple answer would be this: don't even try. You're much better off
>using the company parking lot to do pre-compliance radiated emissions
>testing. For conducted emissions/immunity, and to a certain extent
radiated
>immunity, a shielded room is great. But not for RE. 
>
>The reason for this is the reflections/resonances you get from the walls
>and the ceiling. You can get higher than 20 dB ripples on your
measurements
>in an untreated (no absorber materials on walls/ceiling) shielded room.
And
>these ripples are not very repeatable, they will change considerably with
>position (eg, moving your antenna or EUT less than an inch may result in
>field variations of much more than 10 dB). Because of these huge
>variations, testing cannot help you characterize your room and take these
>reflections into account in your emissions measurements.
>
>If you absolutely need to use a shielded room, try lining it with absorber
>materials. Even a few absorbers are better than none at all. Or try using
>another type of pre-compliance device like a GTEM or something similar.
>Another alternative would be to turn the shielded room into a mode-stir
>chamber. By rotating the properly designed mode stirrer, you will even out
>the variations which will result in fairly usable, repeatable numbers. The
>size of the room determines the usable frequency range.

--
Patrick Lawler
plaw...@west.net

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Re: EMC Resources on the web

1999-05-06 Thread Lou Gnecco 
Randall:

Please be sure to include our web site:
http://www.tempest-inc.com



and specially our EMC SUPPLIERS DIRECTORY:

http://www.tempest-inc.com/suppliers.htm

Listing in our directory is absolutely free, so it is a very
complete one. We would like to build it up into the most complete &
definitive EMC directory in the world. 
We set up this site as a service to our clients, who are always
asking "where can I get conductive gaskets,"  " who makes microwave
absorbing material" etc. This used to require us to do some research and
then write a letter. Now we just say "Check our suppliers directory."

Lou



At 05:00 PM 5/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Hello!  Greetings from Orange County!
>
>I am interested in compiling a list of valuable EMC related resources 
>available on the web.  If you kind guys and gals out there could address 
>them to me, I will compile the results and post them for the group all at 
>once.
>
>Thanks!
>--
>Sincerely,
>
>Randall T. Flinders
>EMC Engineer
>Emulex Network Systems
>V: (714) 513-8012
>F: (714) 513-8265
>randall.flind...@emulex.com
>__   __
>__\ /__
>__/ \__
>E  M  U  L  E  X
>
>Chairman
>Orange County Chapter
>IEEE EMC Society
>r.flind...@ieee.org
>
>
>Attachment Converted: C:\NETEMP\EMCResou
>


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ETS 300 328

1999-05-06 Thread DVVENTL Lizette de Vries-Vente 
Hi Group

I have a client who needs to have ETS 300 328 type approval testing done. 
 It is some kind of tag that uses 2.4 or 5.8 GHz RX frequencies.  The lab 
also needs to be accredited for this specification by the national 
accreditation body of the country.

Can anybody make suggestions for European or US labs.  

Thanks,
Lizette de Vries-Venter
SENIOR ENGINEER
Division of Electronics and Appliances
SABS

Tel : +27 12 428 6990
Fax : +27 12 428 6523
Email : dvve...@sabs.co.za


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Re: EMC Books

1999-05-06 Thread Jon D. Curtis 
Hi Ron,

I've posted reveiws of a number of EMC books at 
www.conformity.com/book_store.html

Disclosure: I also sell the books there.

ron_pick...@hypercom.com wrote:

>  To all,
>
>  I am interested in knowing (and maybe others are, too) about the really good
>  EMC books that are out and about. They may be practical, theoretical or
>  anywhere in between. Areas of interest are, but are not limited to PWBs,
>  backplanes and systems with considerations for design, troubleshooting, and
>  noise reduction.
>
>  For those having such handy references up on their shelves or just knowing of
>  any, please feel free to reply. Replies may be either posted on this forum or
>  sent to me privately. Either way, I will post the summary of results once the
>  responses die off.
>
>  BTW, I already know about a few books and will include those in the summary.
>
>  This list of EMC references will likely be a valuable asset to any EMC
>  professional, particularly those new to the game. Who knows, maybe we all 
> might
>  benefit from such a list.
>
>  OK, let me have it/them.
>
>  Best regards,
>  Ron Pickard
>  ron_pick...@hypercom.com
>
> -
> This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list.
> To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org
> with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the
> quotes).  For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com,
> jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or
> roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).



--
Jon D. Curtis, PE

Curtis-Straus LLC j...@curtis-straus.com
Laboratory for EMC, Safety, NEBS, SEMI-S2 and Telecom
527 Great Roadvoice (978) 486-8880
Littleton, MA 01460   fax   (978) 486-8828
http://www.curtis-straus.com



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RE: Precompliance Testing

1999-05-06 Thread WOODS, RICHARD 
"Please elaborate", as 7 of 9 would say.

--
From:  Gorodetsky, Vitaly [SMTP:vgorodet...@canoga.com]
Sent:  Wednesday, May 05, 1999 8:22 PM
To:  'Flinders, Randall'; 'Hans Mellberg'; 'emc-pstc'
Subject:  RE: Precompliance Testing

In stationary case, such as OATS, there's a relatively
inexpensive way of automatic cancelling ambients out .

-Original Message-
From:   randall.flind...@emulex.com
[SMTP:randall.flind...@emulex.com]
Sent:   Wednesday, May 05, 1999 12:23 PM
To: 'Hans Mellberg'; 'emc-pstc'
Subject:RE: Precompliance Testing

I second that opinion.  My experience shows SEVERE
ambient issues with rooftop sites.
-- 
Sincerely,

Randall T. Flinders
EMC Engineer
Emulex Network Systems
V: (714) 513-8012
F: (714) 513-8265
randall.flind...@emulex.com
__   __
__\ /__
__/ \__
E  M  U  L  E  X

Chairman
Orange County Chapter
IEEE EMC Society
r.flind...@ieee.org



--
From:   Hans Mellberg
Sent:   Wednesday, May 05, 1999 7:59 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org;
bogda...@pacbell.net; Gary McInturff
Cc: 'Brent DeWitt'; Allen Tudor;
emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject:Re: Precompliance Testing



Before you put a rooftop OATS, (assuming you
are not located in Easter
Island or the Caribean Islands!) you are
going to deal with
substantially higher ambient signals. It so
happens that when you need
a stronger signal, a common practice is to
raise the antenna! I have
battled those problems twice in my past and
I would not reccomend
rooftop OATS anymore.


--- bogda...@pacbell.net wrote:
> May I add a note of caution:
> It may be worthwhile to check the
permissible
> loading of the roof, especially
> when you are in the Southwest where roofs
are mostly
> for shade and a few drops
> of rain. I guess that you don't want to
appear
> suddenly in the conference room
> below
> Bogdan.
> 
> Gary McInturff wrote:
> 
> > I'll agree with Brent, and others, the
headaches
> of a metal room or the
> > metal studs et al, in a building are
going to make
> you pull your hair out.
> > But there is an alternative to the
parking lot.
> You may want to consider the
> > roof. The ground reference can be put up
there as
> well, especially if you
> > are doing pre-compliance stuff. You
don't have to
> give up parking space -
> > which is sure to irate somebody. The
roof gets a
> little hot, but that only
> > gives you the opportunity to work in
your cutoffs,
> and showing up to a
> > meeting with the suits dressed like this
is always
> good for a laugh!
> > Gary
snip

===
Best Regards
Hans Mellberg
EMC Consultant

_
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at
http://mail.yahoo.com


-

RE: EMC Books

1999-05-06 Thread Edward O'Toole ITS/CA-Box 
A very good book is from Henry W. Ott
Noise Reduction Techniques in Electronic Systems

-Original Message-
From: ron_pick...@hypercom.com [mailto:ron_pick...@hypercom.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 9:43 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: EMC Books


 To all,

 I am interested in knowing (and maybe others are, too) about the 
really good
 EMC books that are out and about. They may be practical, theoretical 
or
 anywhere in between. Areas of interest are, but are not limited to 
PWBs,
 backplanes and systems with considerations for design, 
troubleshooting, and
 noise reduction.

 For those having such handy references up on their shelves or just 
knowing of
 any, please feel free to reply. Replies may be either posted on this 
forum or
 sent to me privately. Either way, I will post the summary of results 
once the
 responses die off.

 BTW, I already know about a few books and will include those in the 
summary.

 This list of EMC references will likely be a valuable asset to any 
EMC
 professional, particularly those new to the game. Who knows, maybe we 
all might
 benefit from such a list.

 OK, let me have it/them.

 Best regards,
 Ron Pickard
 ron_pick...@hypercom.com


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<>

Re[2]: EMC Resources on the web

1999-05-06 Thread Chris Olliffe 
 The following two sites provide a lot of very useful info
 
 
 links page:-
 http://www.emisoft.co.uk/special/links/alpha.htm
 You can simply search for country or type of equipment ! 
 
 Infobase - on-line:-
 http://www.emisoft.co.uk/infobase/infobase.htm
 Useful list of specifications.
 


__ Reply Separator _
Subject: Re: EMC Resources on the web 
Author:  "Alan E Hutley"  at INTERNET
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date:5/6/99 7:35 AM


Hi Randall
Check out our web site www.emc-journal.co.uk 
Cheers
Alan Hutley
- Original Message -
From: Flinders, Randall  
To: 'emc-pstc' 
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 01:00
Subject: EMC Resources on the web
 
 
> Hello!  Greetings from Orange County! 
>
> I am interested in compiling a list of valuable EMC related 
resources
> available on the web.  If you kind guys and gals out there 
could address
> them to me, I will compile the results and post them for the 
group all at
> once.
>
> Thanks!
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Randall T. Flinders
> EMC Engineer
> Emulex Network Systems
> V: (714) 513-8012
> F: (714) 513-8265
> randall.flind...@emulex.com
> __   __
> __\ /__
> __/ \__
> E  M  U  L  E  X
>
> Chairman
> Orange County Chapter
> IEEE EMC Society
> r.flind...@ieee.org
>
>
 
 
 
 
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roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
 
 


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Re: EMC Resources on the web

1999-05-06 Thread Bill Lyons 
Randall,

In message <01be9718.c3615de0.randall.flind...@emulex.com> you said:

> I am interested in compiling a list of valuable EMC related resources 
> available on the web.  If you kind guys and gals out there could address 
> them to me, I will compile the results and post them for the group all at 
> once.

There is a listing at section 1.5 of the sci.engr.electrical.compliance 
("s.e.e.c") FAQ which may be helpful.  The next issue will be posted to 
the newsgroup 15 May (with my usual pointer announcement to EMC-PSTC).  
The current (36th) issue is available per the sig. below.  

Please feel free to use this information.  In turn, if your listing 
reveals resources I haven't covered, perhaps I may be permitted to add 
them to the FAQ?

Regards,

Bill.

-- 
Bill Lyons - b...@lyons.demon.co.uk / w.ly...@ieee.org
Maintainer of the sci.engr.electrical.compliance FAQ, archived at: 
HTML:  http://world.std.com/~techbook/compliance_faq.html 
ASCII: http://www.lyons.demon.co.uk/seecfaq1.txt, seecfaq2.txt 


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RE: LFM test rig

1999-05-06 Thread James, Chris 
If you just need the flow over the unit then get a good length of tube
(air conditioning duct, round / square or rect in section) large enough
to take your unit with space around it, a variable speed desk fan and a
hot wire or mechanical (vaned) anemometer* (air velocity measuring
instrument).

Place unit in middle of tube, the fan at one end and if a hot wire
anemometer then place thru a drilled hole in the duct positioned well
down stream of unit, if a vaned type then probably just have to place at
end of duct (but a little way in).

The duct will need to be fairly long (wrt the UUT) to reduce turbulence
effects. Knowing the air velocity, and cross sectional area of the duct
you can calculate the volume flow rate. If you stick thermocouples in
the duct before and after the UUT you could get a rough calculation of
dissipation too, (depending on the flow rates involved).

*Anemometers:
http://rswww.com
188-1125  Pitot tube,Digitron,AF200,anemometer  
188-1119  Anemometer,kit,Digitron,AF200  

or hire one or borrow one from your local friendly heating and
ventilation/ process extract company.

Chris

-Original Message-
From: Dan Mitchell [mailto:dmitch...@eoscorp.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 12:50 AM
To: 'emc-pstc'
Subject: LFM test rig


My company produces AC to DC Power Supplies.  I have been directed to
make 
a quick and dirty test rig that will allow me to put a predetermined 
airflow in LFM over the unit.  Does anyone know of a website that
describes 
something like this or have had experience building such a test rig and 
would be willing to share their expertise.


Daniel W. Mitchell
Product Safety Associate Engineer
EOS Corp.

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Re: EMC Resources on the web

1999-05-06 Thread Alan E Hutley 
Hi Randall
Check out our web site www.emc-journal.co.uk
Cheers
Alan Hutley
- Original Message -
From: Flinders, Randall 
To: 'emc-pstc' 
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 01:00
Subject: EMC Resources on the web


> Hello!  Greetings from Orange County!
>
> I am interested in compiling a list of valuable EMC related
resources
> available on the web.  If you kind guys and gals out there
could address
> them to me, I will compile the results and post them for the
group all at
> once.
>
> Thanks!
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Randall T. Flinders
> EMC Engineer
> Emulex Network Systems
> V: (714) 513-8012
> F: (714) 513-8265
> randall.flind...@emulex.com
> __   __
> __\ /__
> __/ \__
> E  M  U  L  E  X
>
> Chairman
> Orange County Chapter
> IEEE EMC Society
> r.flind...@ieee.org
>
>




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RE: Precompliance Testing

1999-05-06 Thread Lou Gnecco 
Jim,
the noun for one who shleps is also "shlep" 

I don't know why, but as one who grew up in new york city, i can assure you
that this is so. that is why you wont find "shlepper"

maybe for the same reason that the plural for "bagel" is also "bagel"

1 bagel,  2 bagel, N bagel ( lim as n-> infinity)

why does this come under precompliance testing? because we'll all agree that
the certification process is a shlep.


Lou


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RE: Precompliance Testing

1999-05-06 Thread Gorodetsky, Vitaly 
In stationary case, such as OATS, there's a relatively inexpensive way of
automatic cancelling ambients out .

> -Original Message-
> From: randall.flind...@emulex.com [SMTP:randall.flind...@emulex.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 12:23 PM
> To:   'Hans Mellberg'; 'emc-pstc'
> Subject:  RE: Precompliance Testing
> 
> I second that opinion.  My experience shows SEVERE ambient issues with
> rooftop sites.
> -- 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Randall T. Flinders
> EMC Engineer
> Emulex Network Systems
> V: (714) 513-8012
> F: (714) 513-8265
> randall.flind...@emulex.com
> __   __
> __\ /__
> __/ \__
> E  M  U  L  E  X
> 
> Chairman
> Orange County Chapter
> IEEE EMC Society
> r.flind...@ieee.org
> 
> 
> 
>   --
>   From:   Hans Mellberg
>   Sent:   Wednesday, May 05, 1999 7:59 AM
>   To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; bogda...@pacbell.net; Gary
> McInturff
>   Cc: 'Brent DeWitt'; Allen Tudor; emc-p...@ieee.org
>   Subject:Re: Precompliance Testing
> 
> 
> 
>   Before you put a rooftop OATS, (assuming you are not located in
> Easter
>   Island or the Caribean Islands!) you are going to deal with
>   substantially higher ambient signals. It so happens that when you
> need
>   a stronger signal, a common practice is to raise the antenna! I have
>   battled those problems twice in my past and I would not reccomend
>   rooftop OATS anymore.
> 
> 
>   --- bogda...@pacbell.net wrote:
>   > May I add a note of caution:
>   > It may be worthwhile to check the permissible
>   > loading of the roof, especially
>   > when you are in the Southwest where roofs are mostly
>   > for shade and a few drops
>   > of rain. I guess that you don't want to appear
>   > suddenly in the conference room
>   > below
>   > Bogdan.
>   > 
>   > Gary McInturff wrote:
>   > 
>   > > I'll agree with Brent, and others, the headaches
>   > of a metal room or the
>   > > metal studs et al, in a building are going to make
>   > you pull your hair out.
>   > > But there is an alternative to the parking lot.
>   > You may want to consider the
>   > > roof. The ground reference can be put up there as
>   > well, especially if you
>   > > are doing pre-compliance stuff. You don't have to
>   > give up parking space -
>   > > which is sure to irate somebody. The roof gets a
>   > little hot, but that only
>   > > gives you the opportunity to work in your cutoffs,
>   > and showing up to a
>   > > meeting with the suits dressed like this is always
>   > good for a laugh!
>   > > Gary
>   snip
> 
>   ===
>   Best Regards
>   Hans Mellberg
>   EMC Consultant
>   _
>   Do You Yahoo!?
>   Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 
>   -
>   This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list.
>   To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org
>   with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the
>   quotes).  For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com,
>   jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or
>   roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
> 
<>

EMC Resources on the web

1999-05-06 Thread Flinders, Randall 
Hello!  Greetings from Orange County!

I am interested in compiling a list of valuable EMC related resources 
available on the web.  If you kind guys and gals out there could address 
them to me, I will compile the results and post them for the group all at 
once.

Thanks!
--
Sincerely,

Randall T. Flinders
EMC Engineer
Emulex Network Systems
V: (714) 513-8012
F: (714) 513-8265
randall.flind...@emulex.com
__   __
__\ /__
__/ \__
E  M  U  L  E  X

Chairman
Orange County Chapter
IEEE EMC Society
r.flind...@ieee.org

<>

Take my Shield Room, Please!

1999-05-06 Thread Flinders, Randall 
Greetings Compliance Professionals!

We happen to have a shield room we recently dismantled available to anyone 
who wants to come pick the thing up.  It is a single-walled, steel room 
with a standard size door.  The measurements of the chamber are 8 feet high 
by 12 feet wide by 16 feet long.  It is designed in such a way that it 
would need substantial modifications if you were to try and hang absorbers 
on the ceiling and/or walls.  The manufacturer of the chamber is unknown. 
 It is currently dismantled and stacked on a pallet in our shipping area.

Anyone interested in acquiring the chamber should contact me at the phone 
number / e-mail shown below.
--
Sincerely,

Randall T. Flinders
EMC Engineer
Emulex Network Systems
V: (714) 513-8012
F: (714) 513-8265
randall.flind...@emulex.com
__   __
__\ /__
__/ \__
E  M  U  L  E  X

Chairman
Orange County Chapter
IEEE EMC Society
r.flind...@ieee.org

<>

RE: Precompliance Testing

1999-05-06 Thread Lou Gnecco 
It's always a good idea to get a spectrum analyzer & some antennas and do a
site survey  before you build either the OATS or the shielded room. Knowing
what the ambients are in advance can save you a lot of trouble and money in
both cases. 
It makes sense, but hardly anyone does it. why? because they tend to
think of the shielded room as part of the "build out" i.e. as office space,
instead of as what it really is: an electronic instrument. like an antenna.

Lou 




At 12:22 PM 5/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
>I second that opinion.  My experience shows SEVERE ambient issues with
rooftop sites.
>-- 
>Sincerely,
>
>Randall T. Flinders
>EMC Engineer
>Emulex Network Systems
>V: (714) 513-8012
>F: (714) 513-8265
>randall.flind...@emulex.com
>__   __
>__\ /__
>__/ \__
>E  M  U  L  E  X
>
>Chairman
>Orange County Chapter
>IEEE EMC Society
>r.flind...@ieee.org
>
>
>
>--
>From:  Hans Mellberg
>Sent:  Wednesday, May 05, 1999 7:59 AM
>To:emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; bogda...@pacbell.net; Gary McInturff
>Cc:'Brent DeWitt'; Allen Tudor; emc-p...@ieee.org
>Subject:   Re: Precompliance Testing
>
>
>
>Before you put a rooftop OATS, (assuming you are not located in Easter
>Island or the Caribean Islands!) you are going to deal with
>substantially higher ambient signals. It so happens that when you need
>a stronger signal, a common practice is to raise the antenna! I have
>battled those problems twice in my past and I would not reccomend
>rooftop OATS anymore.
>
>
>--- bogda...@pacbell.net wrote:
>> May I add a note of caution:
>> It may be worthwhile to check the permissible
>> loading of the roof, especially
>> when you are in the Southwest where roofs are mostly
>> for shade and a few drops
>> of rain. I guess that you don't want to appear
>> suddenly in the conference room
>> below
>> Bogdan.
>> 
>> Gary McInturff wrote:
>> 
>> > I'll agree with Brent, and others, the headaches
>> of a metal room or the
>> > metal studs et al, in a building are going to make
>> you pull your hair out.
>> > But there is an alternative to the parking lot.
>> You may want to consider the
>> > roof. The ground reference can be put up there as
>> well, especially if you
>> > are doing pre-compliance stuff. You don't have to
>> give up parking space -
>> > which is sure to irate somebody. The roof gets a
>> little hot, but that only
>> > gives you the opportunity to work in your cutoffs,
>> and showing up to a
>> > meeting with the suits dressed like this is always
>> good for a laugh!
>> > Gary
>snip
>
>===
>Best Regards
>Hans Mellberg
>EMC Consultant
>_
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>-
>This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list.
>To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org
>with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the
>quotes).  For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com,
>jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or
>roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
>
>Attachment Converted: C:\NETEMP\REPrecom
>


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