RE: Keytek EMC Pro company contact
Brian -- Let me know what you need and if I can't help, I'll put you in touch with someone who can... We certainly do still sell and maintain the EMCPro product line, as well as ECAT and MiniZap. We've had some issues with the Thermo Fisher web site, and I'm going to forward your frustrations on to the people who manage it. On the positive side, thanks for the input - You can reach me at the email below, and you can also try my home office number, which is 603 595 6420. Michael Hopkins Thermo Fisher Scientific One Lowell Research Center Lowell, MA 01852 Tel: +1 978 275 0800 ext. 334 Fax: +1 978 275 0850 mobile: +1 603 765 3736 michael.hopk...@thermofisher.com From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Brian O'Connell Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 5:15 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Keytek EMC Pro company contact Good People, I am having great difficulty finding a technical sales contact for Thermo Scientific (the company that bought the Keytek EMCPro system). The phone numbers on the web site do not seem to be good, the URLs for requesting quotes do not seem to point to valid email addresses, and none of the general support numbers (where no human will answer-voice mail only) will respond to my messages. Has Thermo Scientific abandoned the EMCPro series instruments ? Can someone supply a known valid contact ? Thanks very much, Brian - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Protective Earthing
In message 5f5a140eb5cb094bb4d2c477c8c4ad99aa9...@sjc1amfpew04.am.sanm.corp, dated Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Tarver, Peter peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com writes: Well, then, by all means, those who insisted that 'earth' be used, instead of 'ground,' in the writing of all these IEC safety standards, needs to get in step with the rest of the world, instead of trying to make the world conform to their terminology. In fact, IEC allows the use of either British or US English, but only one in each standard, no mixing. I don't know of any special ruling regarding 'ground' - there is nothing like that in Directives Part 2, which is where it would be. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Protective Earthing
Even my kids know what grounded means. They don't get to use the phone or TV for the next three life times... John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk wrote: In message 5f5a140eb5cb094bb4d2c477c8c4ad99aa9...@sjc1amfpew04.am.sanm.corp, dated Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Tarver, Peter writes: If the product is deployed internationally, protective earth should be used. I'm not aware of anyone in the US or Canada who would misunderstand this term, if were not called 'ground.' Very likely, but 'ground' is also used all over the world by technicians whose first language is not English but who learned technical terms from American books. They are the ones who may well be confused by 'earth'. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - Bill You can say what you want about the South, but you never hear of anyone retiring and moving North!!! _ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http //mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ Try it now. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Keytek EMC Pro company contact
Good People, I am having great difficulty finding a technical sales contact for Thermo Scientific (the company that bought the Keytek EMCPro system). The phone numbers on the web site do not seem to be good, the URLs for requesting quotes do not seem to point to valid email addresses, and none of the general support numbers (where no human will answer-voice mail only) will respond to my messages. Has Thermo Scientific abandoned the EMCPro series instruments ? Can someone supply a known valid contact ? Thanks very much, Brian - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Protective Earthing
I have run into a few instances of problems. One was when I was at a union site that required a specific contractor even for work that didn't require a licensed electrician. I asked for an equipment rack to be earthed and I got a strange look. When I said grounded' the electrician looked happier and then knew what to do. I had a colleague who was monitoring the installation of equipment at an automotive assembly plant near Toronto. My colleague was asked about the earth connection and had to explain that it meant grounding. The first case was confusion over verbal instructions and the second was in regards to written instructions. This hasn't happened to me often, but it has happened. I rather stick with the term Earth and be done with it. I just seem to keep running into knuckle draggers who are given tasks beyond their comprehension. Ted Eckert American Power Conversion/MGE http://www.apc.com/ The items contained in this e-mail reflect the personal opinions of the writer and are only provided for the assistance of the reader. The writer is not speaking in an official capacity for APC-MGE or Schneider Electric. The speaker does not represent APC-MGE's or Schneider Electric's official position on any matter. Tarver, Peter peter.tarver@san mina-sci.com To Sent by: emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org cc Subject 02/29/2008 03:50 RE: Protective Earthing PM From: Ted Eckert Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:45 PM However, I have worked with electrical contractors who's staff only knows the term Grounded. Can you offer a context for this, Ted? For instance, you told the contractor's staff, be certain to earth that box. Or were they reading a manual? Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE ptar...@ieee.org CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail message and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail message, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any prints thereof. ABSENT AN EXPRESS STATEMENT TO THE CONTRARY HEREINABOVE, THIS E-MAIL IS NOT INTENDED AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR A WRITING. Notwithstanding the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act or the applicability of any other law of similar substance and effect, absent an express statement to the contrary hereinabove, this e-mail message its contents, and any attachments hereto are not intended to represent an offer or acceptance to enter into a contract and are not otherwise intended to bind the sender, Sanmina-SCI Corporation (or any of its subsidiaries), or any other person or entity. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas
RE: Protective Earthing
From: Ted Eckert Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:45 PM However, I have worked with electrical contractors who's staff only knows the term Grounded. Can you offer a context for this, Ted? For instance, you told the contractor's staff, be certain to earth that box. Or were they reading a manual? Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE ptar...@ieee.org CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail message and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail message, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any prints thereof. ABSENT AN EXPRESS STATEMENT TO THE CONTRARY HEREINABOVE, THIS E-MAIL IS NOT INTENDED AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR A WRITING. Notwithstanding the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act or the applicability of any other law of similar substance and effect, absent an express statement to the contrary hereinabove, this e-mail message its contents, and any attachments hereto are not intended to represent an offer or acceptance to enter into a contract and are not otherwise intended to bind the sender, Sanmina-SCI Corporation (or any of its subsidiaries), or any other person or entity. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Protective Earthing
From: John Woodgate Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 1:10 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Protective Earthing Tarver, Peter writes: I'm not aware of anyone in the US or Canada who would misunderstand this term, if were not called 'ground.' Very likely, but 'ground' is also used all over the world by technicians whose first language is not English but who learned technical terms from American books. They are the ones who may well be confused by 'earth'. Well, then, by all means, those who insisted that 'earth' be used, instead of 'ground,' in the writing of all these IEC safety standards, needs to get in step with the rest of the world, instead of trying to make the world conform to their terminology. =8O I doubt that this will really be a problem. Manuals typically include photos or drawings or stick figures with arrows to indicate motion that make context clear enough. Those that don't read the manuals, as suggested may occur, won't have the conflict in any case. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE ptar...@ieee.org CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail message and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail message, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any prints thereof. ABSENT AN EXPRESS STATEMENT TO THE CONTRARY HEREINABOVE, THIS E-MAIL IS NOT INTENDED AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR A WRITING. Notwithstanding the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act or the applicability of any other law of similar substance and effect, absent an express statement to the contrary hereinabove, this e-mail message its contents, and any attachments hereto are not intended to represent an offer or acceptance to enter into a contract and are not otherwise intended to bind the sender, Sanmina-SCI Corporation (or any of its subsidiaries), or any other person or entity. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Protective Earthing
In message 5f5a140eb5cb094bb4d2c477c8c4ad99aa9...@sjc1amfpew04.am.sanm.corp, dated Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Tarver, Peter peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com writes: If the product is deployed internationally, protective earth should be used. I'm not aware of anyone in the US or Canada who would misunderstand this term, if were not called 'ground.' Very likely, but 'ground' is also used all over the world by technicians whose first language is not English but who learned technical terms from American books. They are the ones who may well be confused by 'earth'. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Protective Earthing
I can combine the automotive reference and the reference to people who shouldn't be in the industry based on their lack of knowledge. At one time I worked for a company where one of our electrical technician was using our arc welder to fix a loose heat shield over his car's catalytic converter. Our lab manager told the technician to make sure he was on a good ground for the welding. The technician, who was lying under the car at the time, responded I am lying on the ground; how much closer can I get. Back on topic, I can state that American's understanding of Earth vs. Ground depends on their background. In my office, everybody is going to know what Earthed means. However, I have worked with electrical contractors who's staff only knows the term Grounded. The terminology used may need to be tailored to the intended audience in the United States. On the other hand, if the person doesn't know the meaning of Earthed, they probably are not the type who is going to read the manual anyway. Ted Eckert American Power Conversion/MGE http://www.apc.com/ The items contained in this e-mail reflect the personal opinions of the writer and are only provided for the assistance of the reader. The writer is not speaking in an official capacity for APC-MGE or Schneider Electric. The speaker does not represent APC-MGE's or Schneider Electric's official position on any matter. Tarver, Peter peter.tarver@san mina-sci.com To Sent by: emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org cc Subject 02/29/2008 02:16 RE: Protective Earthing PM From: John Merrill Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 8:44 AM I have a case where some want to substitute the word Ground for Protective Earth in product manuals. The products are marked with IEC 5019a protective Earthing symbol and I have no trouble proving the requirements for that. It's in the manual where references to Wire Size of Protective Earthing conductor etc that some here want to change this to Ground. From the IEV 60050-195 the term ground is a Local US term and the manual has worldwide distribution in four languages. This is almost a nonissue, regardless of any alleged confusion for a circuit reference, which seems very unlikely to occur. If the product is deployed internationally, protective earth should be used. I'm not aware of anyone in the US or Canada who would misunderstand this term, if were not called 'ground.' If they do exist, they probably shouldn't be working on the equipment in the first place. If we're going to rely on the NEC and CEC, these refer to this as the equipment grounding conductor, to differentiate it from the grounded supply conductor (neutral), rather than just as 'ground.' OT Tidbit: The first place I encountered the term 'earth' in an electrical context, was related to an automobile (an 1970 MG B), in describing the chassis circuit reference as negatively earthed. The car didn't have a drag chain and used the traditional nonconductive tires (oops, 'tyres'), so I expect there was no such thing as a 'earthed' part on the whole thing. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE ptar...@ieee.org CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail message and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail message, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any prints thereof. ABSENT AN EXPRESS STATEMENT TO THE CONTRARY HEREINABOVE, THIS E-MAIL IS NOT INTENDED AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR A WRITING. Notwithstanding the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act or the applicability of any other law of similar substance and effect, absent an express statement to the contrary hereinabove, this e-mail message
RE: Protective Earthing
From: John Merrill Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 8:44 AM I have a case where some want to substitute the word Ground for Protective Earth in product manuals. The products are marked with IEC 5019a protective Earthing symbol and I have no trouble proving the requirements for that. It's in the manual where references to Wire Size of Protective Earthing conductor etc that some here want to change this to Ground. From the IEV 60050-195 the term ground is a Local US term and the manual has worldwide distribution in four languages. This is almost a nonissue, regardless of any alleged confusion for a circuit reference, which seems very unlikely to occur. If the product is deployed internationally, protective earth should be used. I'm not aware of anyone in the US or Canada who would misunderstand this term, if were not called 'ground.' If they do exist, they probably shouldn't be working on the equipment in the first place. If we're going to rely on the NEC and CEC, these refer to this as the equipment grounding conductor, to differentiate it from the grounded supply conductor (neutral), rather than just as 'ground.' OT Tidbit: The first place I encountered the term 'earth' in an electrical context, was related to an automobile (an 1970 MG B), in describing the chassis circuit reference as negatively earthed. The car didn't have a drag chain and used the traditional nonconductive tires (oops, 'tyres'), so I expect there was no such thing as a 'earthed' part on the whole thing. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE ptar...@ieee.org CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail message and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail message, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any prints thereof. ABSENT AN EXPRESS STATEMENT TO THE CONTRARY HEREINABOVE, THIS E-MAIL IS NOT INTENDED AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR A WRITING. Notwithstanding the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act or the applicability of any other law of similar substance and effect, absent an express statement to the contrary hereinabove, this e-mail message its contents, and any attachments hereto are not intended to represent an offer or acceptance to enter into a contract and are not otherwise intended to bind the sender, Sanmina-SCI Corporation (or any of its subsidiaries), or any other person or entity. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Protective Earthing
In message of3aadd483.b7c7dc50-on862573fe.00672874-862573fe.00682...@apcc.com, dated Fri, 29 Feb 2008, ted.eck...@apcc.com writes: Have you considered defining Ground or Earth in your manual so that the English language readers clearly understand to what you are referencing? That's OK for experts, but not for the junior technicians who can't read English very well. 'Earth/ground' works for them. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Protective Earthing
I agree with John Woodgate that you may be best off using dual nomenclature. NFPA 70, the National Electrical Code, uses Ground and not Earth. The Canadian Electrical Code is the same. Neither defines Earth and both use it to refer to the dirt and rock beneath a structure, not an equipotential reference normally connected to the earth. I can also look at IEC 60950-1. Clause 1.2.13.10 defines Protective Earthing Conductor, but there is also a note for this clause which states In some countries, the term 'grounding conductor' is used instead of 'protective earthing conductor'. This note is not universal in IEC standards as I can not find the word ground anywhere in IEC 60335. Have you considered defining Ground or Earth in your manual so that the English language readers clearly understand to what you are referencing? The NEC defines Ground as A conducting connection, whether intentional or accidental, between an electrical circuit or equipment and the earth or to some conducting body that serves in place of the earth. This may be the place to start for a definition. Ted Eckert American Power Conversion/MGE http://www.apc.com/ The items contained in this e-mail reflect the personal opinions of the writer and are only provided for the assistance of the reader. The writer is not speaking in an official capacity for APC-MGE or Schneider Electric. The speaker does not represent APC-MGE's or Schneider Electric's official position on any matter. John Woodgate jmw@jmwa.demon.c o.uk To Sent by: emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org cc Subject 02/29/2008 11:09 Re: Protective Earthing AM In message OF991E870B.BC390323-ON852573FE.005AED36-852573FE.005BEAFD@US.Schneider-E lectric.com, dated Fri, 29 Feb 2008, john.merr...@us.schneider-electric.com writes: I have a case where some want to substitute the word Ground for Protective Earth in product manuals. The products are marked with IEC 5019a protective Earthing symbol and I have no trouble proving the requirements for that. It's in the manual where references to Wire Size of Protective Earthing conductor etc that some here want to change this to Ground. From the IEV 60050-195 the term ground is a Local US term and the manual has worldwide distribution in four languages. Any suggestions on where to find good arguments against doing this? The best argument is that it is not 'either ...or...'. Only the English language is affected: I don't think there are similar variants in other languages. So the simplest solution is to print 'earth/ground' wherever necessary. Some people whose first language is not English have learned 'earth' and others have learned 'ground'. Since you have only four languages, there will be such people reading the English. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the
Re: Protective Earthing
In message OF991E870B.BC390323-ON852573FE.005AED36-852573FE.005BEAFD@US.Schneider-E lectric.com, dated Fri, 29 Feb 2008, john.merr...@us.schneider-electric.com writes: I have a case where some want to substitute the word Ground for Protective Earth in product manuals. The products are marked with IEC 5019a protective Earthing symbol and I have no trouble proving the requirements for that. It's in the manual where references to Wire Size of Protective Earthing conductor etc that some here want to change this to Ground. From the IEV 60050-195 the term ground is a Local US term and the manual has worldwide distribution in four languages. Any suggestions on where to find good arguments against doing this? The best argument is that it is not 'either ...or...'. Only the English language is affected: I don't think there are similar variants in other languages. So the simplest solution is to print 'earth/ground' wherever necessary. Some people whose first language is not English have learned 'earth' and others have learned 'ground'. Since you have only four languages, there will be such people reading the English. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Protective Earthing
You mean an argument other than the danger of confusion between the US use of ground to refer to logic reference and signal return versus protective earth? From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of john.merr...@us.schneider-electric.com Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 10:44 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Protective Earthing I have a case where some want to substitute the word Ground for Protective Earth in product manuals. The products are marked with IEC 5019a protective Earthing symbol and I have no trouble proving the requirements for that. It's in the manual where references to Wire Size of Protective Earthing conductor etc that some here want to change this to Ground. From the IEV 60050-195 the term ground is a Local US term and the manual has worldwide distribution in four languages. Any suggestions on where to find good arguments against doing this? Thanks in advance. John Merrill Product Safety Engineer Schneider Automation inc. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
re: Japan High Pressure Gas Safety Law
Cliff, Try: http://dom.semi.org/web/wFiles.nsf Lookup/High_Pressure_Gas_e/$file/High_Pressure_Gas_e.pdf Best Regards, Brian R. SMith SIMCOM International Holdings, Inc. brsm...@esimcom.com Tel: +1 (770) 730-9980 Fax: +1 (770) 730-9976 http://www.esimcom.com/ This Email is covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. Sections 2510-2521 and is legally privileged. The information contained in this Email is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distributions or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify SIMCOM by telephone +1 (770) 730-9980 and kindly destroy the original message. _ From: Clif Brick cbr...@petsafe.net Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 11:59 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Japan High Pressure Gas Safety Law Greetings, I know I'm reaching here, but does anyone have an english copy of the Japanese High Pressure Gas Safety Law? I am most interested in the most recent technical requirements, which come into force in 2008. Much appreciated Best regards, Clif Clifton Brick Product Safety and Regulatory Manager Radio Systems Corporation 10427 Electric Ave Knoxville, TN 37932 Phone 865-218-1557 Fax 865-671-6855 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Japan High Pressure Gas Safety Law
Greetings, I know I'm reaching here, but does anyone have an english copy of the Japanese High Pressure Gas Safety Law? I am most interested in the most recent technical requirements, which come into force in 2008. Much appreciated Best regards, Clif Clifton Brick Product Safety and Regulatory Manager Radio Systems Corporation 10427 Electric Ave Knoxville, TN 37932 Phone 865-218-1557 Fax 865-671-6855 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Field Testing
In message FCA549BE3ECF9D4CB8CB8576837EA4892B6C@ZEUS.cetest.local, dated Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Gert Gremmen administra...@ce-test.info writes: So John, don't worry, one is allowed to design a new product end switch it on!! I did try to make clear that this was the case; that the extension of the definition stopped short of idiocy. Until someone says : it's a product now !! We are gonna sell it ! let's go field testing !! I do not believe in asking the authorities. They will simply say no. Not always. At least, not in all countries. But for trade shows , but that's another subject. Well John, products do cross EC borders without ce-mark every day. Yes, they do, but in some cases that is legal, in others it is not legal. As a test house we do frequently receive PRODUCTS from our USA and WW customers without problems (or do you think that ce-test is that famous that customs understand !! ??!!@) Samples for compliance testing, if so described on the paperwork, do not have to be CE-marked. But the question was about 'field testing', and in that case, they may have to be marked, depending on exactly what 'field testing' means. If the manufacturer's staff carry out the tests, no CE mark. If the products are distributed to others, (not test-houses) for testing, then CE marking is, in my opinion, necessary, because that is 'taking into service', but not 'placing on the market' since there is no 'offer'. I base that on the ruling that locomotives and train stock are not 'placed on the market' because they are supplied under a 1:1 contract between a manufacturer and a specific operator. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Field Testing
In message 3c6137471f17424280d9b2ceaefd7f853b6...@usmafrexmb01.bose.com, dated Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Tyra, John john_t...@bose.com writes: I thought this document had a pretty good definition of Placing on the market on page 19.. http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/newapproach/legislation/guide/document/1 999_1282_en.pdf This is a very helpful link. I would encourage people to download this very big Guide; it answers a lot of questions. After reading this again I think field testing would be considered Placing on the Market but I am sure our EU colleagues could answer this more definitively. I'm not sure why you draw that conclusion. The text says: QUOTE Placing on the market is the initial action of making a product available for the first time on the Community market, with a view to distribution or use in the Community. Making available can be either for payment or free of charge. ENDQUOTE I didn't interpret 'field testing' as involving selling or giving away the product. If it does, then compliance and CE marking are essential. Then we have: QUOTE Putting into service takes place at the moment of first use within the Community by the end user. However, the need to ensure, in the framework of market surveillance, that products are in compliance with the provisions of the directives when being put into service is limited. ENDQUOTE This is the definition I gave, without the 'hard cases' extension, which puts a wide interpretation on 'end user' - that it is anyone who operates the product after it has been manufactured. There is also a great deal of uncertainty about the implications of the second sentence. The Guide applies to all Directives, and we might agree that it is reasonable not to be too worried about the odd product that isn't EMC-compliant but causes no problems. But what about safety standards? Shouldn't it be essential that all products are compliant? -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Protective Earthing
I have a case where some want to substitute the word Ground for Protective Earth in product manuals. The products are marked with IEC 5019a protective Earthing symbol and I have no trouble proving the requirements for that. It's in the manual where references to Wire Size of Protective Earthing conductor etc that some here want to change this to Ground. From the IEV 60050-195 the term ground is a Local US term and the manual has worldwide distribution in four languages. Any suggestions on where to find good arguments against doing this? Thanks in advance. John Merrill Product Safety Engineer Schneider Automation inc. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Field Testing
The below may not be complete, and not even represent the full EMC or LOW voltage directive opinions, (and they are different too). It's how I handle them everyday. Do you need field testing so soon ? If you want to answer that, you First must decide of field testing is absolutely necessary with a product that may not (or may) comply. Why should you want to expose (future) customers with a product that may include hazards to them or the spectrum. EMC or Safety testing may imply future functional restrictions, making the value of field testing less valuable. Placed onto the market is almost every action where a piece of equipment is made available to anyone else but the manufacturer. As John said sell or give away. put into service definitely means switching a product on the first time (that is from the directive) within the EC territory. Both statements refer to a PRODUCT. It is the manufacturer that defines if a product is a product or not. A product is a defined entity that autonomously provides a function to an end user. This excludes unfinished equipment but does not necessary exclude field samples. Before a new design becomes a product, it may of course temporarily be NO PRODUCT. This is where design happens. This is where compliance testing happens. So John, don't worry, one is allowed to design a new product end switch it on!! Until someone says : it's a product now !! We are gonna sell it ! let's go field testing !! I do not believe in asking the authorities. They will simply say no. But for trade shows , but that's another subject. Well John, products do cross EC borders without ce-mark every day. As a test house we do frequently receive PRODUCTS from our USA and WW customers without problems (or do you think that ce-test is that famous that customs understand !! ??!!@) Gert Gremmen ce-test, qualified testing bv Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens John Woodgate Verzonden: vrijdag 29 februari 2008 16:06 Aan: emc-p...@ieee.org Onderwerp: Re: Field Testing In message of4c222d7f.6e1294ce-on862573fe.004d10eb-862573fe.004d7...@mmm.com, dated Fri, 29 Feb 2008, rehel...@mmm.com writes: What are the European rules governing the use of non-CE marked equipment and field testing? Not allowed? It isn't specifically prohibited, as such, but . What are the definitions of placed on the market and put into service? I can't seem to find a clear definition. The clearest are in the Directive itself, for sufficiently obscure values of 'clear'. 'Placed on the market' is reasonably obvious - it involves an open offer to sell or give away. That doesn't apply to field test samples, of course. 'Taken into service' is more difficult. Originally, it meant 'the first use for the product's intended purpose', but some 'hard cases' (such as manufacturer's own-built test equipment) seem to have extended the meaning almost to 'the first time the product is powered up', in which case you couldn't even legally power it up to test it for compliance! So it does stop short of 'the first time it's powered up', but exactly where is not clear. In another aspect, the CE mark is what gets the product across national borders and into the EU in the first place. So without one, it can't legally enter. If you want to do field testing in a particular EU country, and want to be strictly legal, you could ask the authorities for permission. Or could you do the testing at an EMC test site? -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com
Compliance Engineer Job Opening
We have a job opening for a Compliance Engineer in Shelton, CT. The job is mostly EMC testing and working with the product development teams to resolve EMC issues. The job also involves some Product Safety testing. If you are interested in this position, please visit us on-line at www.pb.com/careers and select search jobs and enter 70809 in the keyword search. Jim Hulbert, Group Leader/Principal Engineer Compliance Engineering Competitive Analysis. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Field Testing
Bob, I thought this document had a pretty good definition of Placing on the market on page 19.. http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/newapproach/legislation/guide/document/19 99_1282_en.pdf After reading this again I think field testing would be considered Placing on the Market but I am sure our EU colleagues could answer this more definitively. Hope this helps. Regards, John Tyra Manager Product Safety Bose Corporation The Mountain, MS-450 Framingham, MA 01701-9168 Phone: 508-766-1502 Fax: 508-766-1145 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of rehel...@mmm.com Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 9:06 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Field Testing What are the European rules governing the use of non-CE marked equipment and field testing? Not allowed? What are the definitions of placed on the market and put into service? I can't seem to find a clear definition. Thanks, Bob Heller 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: assistance - Lithium-ion custom batteries
Denis, When they become available, I will send you Brazil and Japan's requirements Denis Ryskamp denis_rysk...@trimble.com wrote: Peter Would you have access to an English translation of the proposed amendment that is under consideration? Regards, Denis Ryskamp _ From: peter merguerian [mailto:pmerguerian2...@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 3:26 AM To: Denis Ryskamp; Ron Pickard, RPQ; Gartman, Richard Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: assistance - Lithium-ion custom batteries These are still under discussion. Will inform the group when the requirements become effective Denis Ryskamp denis_rysk...@trimble.com wrote: Watch for a proposed amendment to Japan DENAN that will require PSE for some Li-ion batteries. To affect batteries with energy density greater than or equal to 400 watts per liter. November 2008 has been indicated as target date for implementation. Heard that a Draft of the ordinance and the technical requirements are now in public comment phase. Unfortunately, have been unable to obtain more information of the proposed amendment. Regards, Denis Ryskamp Environmental Compliance Manager Trimble Dayton 5475 Kellenburger Road Dayton, Ohio 45424 *: 01-937-245-5539 *: http://us.f347.mail.yahoo.com/ym/denis_rysk...@trimble.com denis_rysk...@trimble.com _ From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ron Pickard, RPQ Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 10:09 AM To: 'Gartman, Richard' Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: assistance - Lithium-ion custom batteries Richard, Lithium batteries, categorized as hazardous materials and based on lithium content, are subject to a host of transportation safety regulations imposed by at least the IATA, ICAO, IMDG, UN (ST/SG/AC.10/11/Rev.4) and US DOT (49CFR Parts 171,172,173 175). In the US, there are product safety requirements imposed by UL and other NRTLs, which may include formal Recognition or Listing. In the EU, directive 91/157/EEC and its successor 2006/66/EC will likely apply. I would suggest that the battery manufacturer make this documentation available to you. Otherwise, TI (partnering with the manufacturer) will need to acquire it. I hope this helps. Best regards, Ron Pickard RPQ Consulting 7372 West Luke Avenue Glendale, AZ 85303 +623.512-3451 tel, +623.848-9033 fax rpick...@rpqconsulting.com www.rpqconsulting.com http://www.rpqconsulting.com/ From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Gartman, Richard Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 8:39 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: assistance - Lithium-ion custom batteries EMC-PSTC, We are looking at purchasing custom made lithium ion batteries (2700 milli amp hr size) from a manufacturer in China. What should I be looking for regarding product safety and certifications? These batteries could go to US, Europe and Australia. Regards W. Richard Gartman, MS, CSP Product Stewardship Manager Texas Instruments, Education Technology 7800 Banner Drive, Dallas, Tx 75251 Office: 972-917-1636 Email: rgart...@ti.com Fax: 972-917-0668 URL: www.education.ti.com Please consider the environment before printing this email. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules:
Re: Field Testing
In message of4c222d7f.6e1294ce-on862573fe.004d10eb-862573fe.004d7...@mmm.com, dated Fri, 29 Feb 2008, rehel...@mmm.com writes: What are the European rules governing the use of non-CE marked equipment and field testing? Not allowed? It isn't specifically prohibited, as such, but . What are the definitions of placed on the market and put into service? I can't seem to find a clear definition. The clearest are in the Directive itself, for sufficiently obscure values of 'clear'. 'Placed on the market' is reasonably obvious - it involves an open offer to sell or give away. That doesn't apply to field test samples, of course. 'Taken into service' is more difficult. Originally, it meant 'the first use for the product's intended purpose', but some 'hard cases' (such as manufacturer's own-built test equipment) seem to have extended the meaning almost to 'the first time the product is powered up', in which case you couldn't even legally power it up to test it for compliance! So it does stop short of 'the first time it's powered up', but exactly where is not clear. In another aspect, the CE mark is what gets the product across national borders and into the EU in the first place. So without one, it can't legally enter. If you want to do field testing in a particular EU country, and want to be strictly legal, you could ask the authorities for permission. Or could you do the testing at an EMC test site? -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: WEEE question
In message 35c6d51874342f46ae14c5814c5cf2df12a...@esealmw109.eemea.ericsson.se, dated Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Anders Svensson B anders.b.svens...@ericsson.com writes: Does a power supply also need to be marked (crossed-out wheeled bin) according to the requirements in the WEEE directive then its a part of a product that is within the scope of the WEEE directive? If you have any sort of label on the product, it may be very easy to add the symbol, much easier than trying to decide whether it's compulsory or not. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Field Testing
What are the European rules governing the use of non-CE marked equipment and field testing? Not allowed? What are the definitions of placed on the market and put into service? I can't seem to find a clear definition. Thanks, Bob Heller 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: WEEE question
Anders – depends, is the supply an integral fixed part of the obligated product (no mark needed), or a pluggable but integrated custom part of the obligated product (mark not needed) or an external wall wart type supply (mark needed). _ From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Anders Svensson B Sent: 29 February 2008 11:37 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: WEEE question Hi group, Does a power supply also need to be marked (crossed-out wheeled bin) according to the requirements in the WEEE directive then its a part of a product that is within the scope of the WEEE directive? (Maybe this question is out of scope for this group but I try because I have hard to inteprep the WEEE directive) Thanks for your help! /Anders - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc _ This message (including any attachments) may contain confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose. If you are not the intended recipient, delete this message. If you are not the intended recipient, disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action based on this message is strictly prohibited. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: UK distributor for Werlatone RF Couplers
I believe Melcom Electronics Limited is Werlatone's UK distributor.
http://www.melcom.co.uk/
Ted Eckert
American Power Conversion/MGE
http://www.apc.com/
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is not speaking in an official capacity for APC-MGE or Schneider Electric.
The speaker does not represent APC-MGE's or Schneider Electric's official
position on any matter.
Price, Andrew
(SELEX GALILEO,
UK) To
andrew.p.price@s emc-p...@ieee.org
elex-sas.com cc
Sent by:
emc-p...@ieee.org Subject
UK distributor for Werlatone RF
Couplers
02/29/2008 02:04
AM
Hi all,
Can anyone help I am looking for the UK distributor for Werlatone RF
Couplers?
Regards
Andy
Andrew P. Price
Principle Hardware Engineer, EMC Specialist
SELEX GALILEO, Sensors Airborne Systems
Christopher Martin Road
Basildon
Essex SS14 3EL
Mail Ref : K160
( Tel Direct : +44 (0)1268 887271
( Tel EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
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P Please consider the environment before printing this email.
SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems Limited
Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex
SS14 3EL
A company registered in England Wales. Company no. 02426132
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RE: assistance - Lithium-ion custom batteries
Peter Would you have access to an English translation of the proposed amendment that is under consideration? Regards, Denis Ryskamp _ From: peter merguerian [mailto:pmerguerian2...@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 3:26 AM To: Denis Ryskamp; Ron Pickard, RPQ; Gartman, Richard Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: assistance - Lithium-ion custom batteries These are still under discussion. Will inform the group when the requirements become effective Denis Ryskamp denis_rysk...@trimble.com wrote: Watch for a proposed amendment to Japan DENAN that will require PSE for some Li-ion batteries. To affect batteries with energy density greater than or equal to 400 watts per liter. November 2008 has been indicated as target date for implementation. Heard that a Draft of the ordinance and the technical requirements are now in public comment phase. Unfortunately, have been unable to obtain more information of the proposed amendment. Regards, Denis Ryskamp Environmental Compliance Manager Trimble Dayton 5475 Kellenburger Road Dayton, Ohio 45424 *: 01-937-245-5539 *: http://us.f347.mail.yahoo.com/ym/denis_rysk...@trimble.com denis_rysk...@trimble.com _ From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ron Pickard, RPQ Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 10:09 AM To: 'Gartman, Richard' Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: assistance - Lithium-ion custom batteries Richard, Lithium batteries, categorized as hazardous materials and based on lithium content, are subject to a host of transportation safety regulations imposed by at least the IATA, ICAO, IMDG, UN (ST/SG/AC.10/11/Rev.4) and US DOT (49CFR Parts 171,172,173 175). In the US, there are product safety requirements imposed by UL and other NRTLs, which may include formal Recognition or Listing. In the EU, directive 91/157/EEC and its successor 2006/66/EC will likely apply. I would suggest that the battery manufacturer make this documentation available to you. Otherwise, TI (partnering with the manufacturer) will need to acquire it. I hope this helps. Best regards, Ron Pickard RPQ Consulting 7372 West Luke Avenue Glendale, AZ 85303 +623.512-3451 tel, +623.848-9033 fax rpick...@rpqconsulting.com www.rpqconsulting.com http://www.rpqconsulting.com/ From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Gartman, Richard Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 8:39 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: assistance - Lithium-ion custom batteries EMC-PSTC, We are looking at purchasing custom made lithium ion batteries (2700 milli amp hr size) from a manufacturer in China. What should I be looking for regarding product safety and certifications? These batteries could go to US, Europe and Australia. Regards W. Richard Gartman, MS, CSP Product Stewardship Manager Texas Instruments, Education Technology 7800 Banner Drive, Dallas, Tx 75251 Office: 972-917-1636 Email: rgart...@ti.com Fax: 972-917-0668 URL: www.education.ti.com Please consider the environment before printing this email. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to
WEEE question
Hi group, Does a power supply also need to be marked (crossed-out wheeled bin) according to the requirements in the WEEE directive then its a part of a product that is within the scope of the WEEE directive? (Maybe this question is out of scope for this group but I try because I have hard to inteprep the WEEE directive) Thanks for your help! /Anders - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Free Space Antenna Factor
Thanks for pointing that out. Not too often we get mentioned together :-D What you say is true of course, but my opinion is still that in practical EMI measurements with typical EMI antennas a free-space AF is the best choice whether you measure from 3m or 10m distance. Ari Honkala -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ext Ken Javor Sent: 29. helmikuuta 2008 10:12 To: Untitled Subject: Re: Free Space Antenna Factor Mr. Honkala violates the fundamental rule of physics annunciated by Albert Einstein: Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. While the antenna factor is by definition the ratio of voltage delivered at the antenna terminal relative to illuminating electric field, it is the nature of the illuminating electric field itself which is different between three, ten, thirty meters and free space. Free space implies a plane wave illumination, the other separations more or less approximate free space illumination according to frequency and antenna geometry, because antenna factor is measured using two identical antennas a fixed distance apart. The three, ten or thirty meter antenna factor approaches the free space factor when the antenna physical size is small with respect to separation, making it look like the point source radiator of a plane wave. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: ari.honk...@nsn.com Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:59:58 +0200 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Conversation: Free Space Antenna Factor Subject: RE: Free Space Antenna Factor Back to basics: Antenna factor is merely the ratio of E-field strength and the voltage in antenna terminals. Therefore it is not related to any distance from source. It is related to distance from ground plane, but the free-space AF gives a practical average value that is usable when a single figure is used in emission test. Determination of AF in different ways means different errors in it. Ari -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ext John Woodgate Sent: 29. helmikuuta 2008 9:44 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Free Space Antenna Factor In message e2ceff6b0970a840bb7597dc31bec33003100...@esebe107.noe.nokia.co m, dated Fri, 29 Feb 2008, ari.honk...@nsn.com writes: read the appendix 3 of the NPL paper. They state that free-space antenna factor is appropriate for 3 m measurements. What is the context? I think it's a surprising statement if it is said to be applicable to all possible designs of antenna. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher:
Re: UK distributor for Werlatone RF Couplers
In message baaffc88eeb3c541b27f567064251ef903039...@desmdswms202.des.grplnk.net, dated Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Price, Andrew (SELEX GALILEO, UK) andrew.p.pr...@selex-sas.com writes: Can anyone help I am looking for the UK distributor for Werlatone RF Couplers? There may not be one. I found a New York distributor and an Australian, but no UK/Europe one. I suggest you ask them. They do speak a sort of English. (;-) http://www.werlatone.com/ -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: assistance - Lithium-ion custom batteries
These are still under discussion. Will inform the group when the requirements become effective Denis Ryskamp denis_rysk...@trimble.com wrote: Watch for a proposed amendment to Japan DENAN that will require PSE for some Li-ion batteries. To affect batteries with energy density greater than or equal to 400 watts per liter. November 2008 has been indicated as target date for implementation. Heard that a Draft of the ordinance and the technical requirements are now in public comment phase. Unfortunately, have been unable to obtain more information of the proposed amendment. Regards, Denis Ryskamp Environmental Compliance Manager Trimble Dayton 5475 Kellenburger Road Dayton, Ohio 45424 *: 01-937-245-5539 *: http://us.f347.mail.yahoo.com/ym/denis_rysk...@trimble.com denis_rysk...@trimble.com _ From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ron Pickard, RPQ Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 10:09 AM To: 'Gartman, Richard' Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: assistance - Lithium-ion custom batteries Richard, Lithium batteries, categorized as hazardous materials and based on lithium content, are subject to a host of transportation safety regulations imposed by at least the IATA, ICAO, IMDG, UN (ST/SG/AC.10/11/Rev.4) and US DOT (49CFR Parts 171,172,173 175). In the US, there are product safety requirements imposed by UL and other NRTLs, which may include formal Recognition or Listing. In the EU, directive 91/157/EEC and its successor 2006/66/EC will likely apply. I would suggest that the battery manufacturer make this documentation available to you. Otherwise, TI (partnering with the manufacturer) will need to acquire it. I hope this helps. Best regards, Ron Pickard RPQ Consulting 7372 West Luke Avenue Glendale, AZ 85303 +623.512-3451 tel, +623.848-9033 fax rpick...@rpqconsulting.com www.rpqconsulting.com http://www.rpqconsulting.com/ From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Gartman, Richard Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 8:39 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: assistance - Lithium-ion custom batteries EMC-PSTC, We are looking at purchasing custom made lithium ion batteries (2700 milli amp hr size) from a manufacturer in China. What should I be looking for regarding product safety and certifications? These batteries could go to US, Europe and Australia. Regards W. Richard Gartman, MS, CSP Product Stewardship Manager Texas Instruments, Education Technology 7800 Banner Drive, Dallas, Tx 75251 Office: 972-917-1636 Email: rgart...@ti.com Fax: 972-917-0668 URL: www.education.ti.com Please consider the environment before printing this email. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc _ Looking for last minute shopping deals? http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http //tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping Find them fast
Re: Free Space Antenna Factor
In message e2ceff6b0970a840bb7597dc31bec33003100...@esebe107.noe.nokia.com, dated Fri, 29 Feb 2008, ari.honk...@nsn.com writes: Antenna factor is merely the ratio of E-field strength and the voltage in antenna terminals. Therefore it is not related to any distance from source. But it IS dependent on the characteristics of any objects in the field. At 3 m, an object has more effect than at 10 m, of course. If measured as a receiving antenna, it's not dependent on source distance if the source is very small. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Free Space Antenna Factor
Mr. Honkala violates the fundamental rule of physics annunciated by Albert Einstein: Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. While the antenna factor is by definition the ratio of voltage delivered at the antenna terminal relative to illuminating electric field, it is the nature of the illuminating electric field itself which is different between three, ten, thirty meters and free space. Free space implies a plane wave illumination, the other separations more or less approximate free space illumination according to frequency and antenna geometry, because antenna factor is measured using two identical antennas a fixed distance apart. The three, ten or thirty meter antenna factor approaches the free space factor when the antenna physical size is small with respect to separation, making it look like the point source radiator of a plane wave. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: ari.honk...@nsn.com Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:59:58 +0200 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Conversation: Free Space Antenna Factor Subject: RE: Free Space Antenna Factor Back to basics: Antenna factor is merely the ratio of E-field strength and the voltage in antenna terminals. Therefore it is not related to any distance from source. It is related to distance from ground plane, but the free-space AF gives a practical average value that is usable when a single figure is used in emission test. Determination of AF in different ways means different errors in it. Ari -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ext John Woodgate Sent: 29. helmikuuta 2008 9:44 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Free Space Antenna Factor In message e2ceff6b0970a840bb7597dc31bec33003100...@esebe107.noe.nokia.co m, dated Fri, 29 Feb 2008, ari.honk...@nsn.com writes: read the appendix 3 of the NPL paper. They state that free-space antenna factor is appropriate for 3 m measurements. What is the context? I think it's a surprising statement if it is said to be applicable to all possible designs of antenna. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
UK distributor for Werlatone RF Couplers
Hi all, Can anyone help I am looking for the UK distributor for Werlatone RF Couplers? Regards Andy Andrew P. Price Principle Hardware Engineer, EMC Specialist SELEX GALILEO, Sensors Airborne Systems Christopher Martin Road Basildon Essex SS14 3EL Mail Ref : K160 ( Tel Direct : +44 (0)1268 887271 ( Tel EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308 )Mobile: +44 (0)7985 416289 * E-mail : andrew.p.pr...@selex-sas.com P Please consider the environment before printing this email. SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems Limited Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex SS14 3EL A company registered in England Wales. Company no. 02426132 This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Free Space Antenna Factor
Back to basics: Antenna factor is merely the ratio of E-field strength and the voltage in antenna terminals. Therefore it is not related to any distance from source. It is related to distance from ground plane, but the free-space AF gives a practical average value that is usable when a single figure is used in emission test. Determination of AF in different ways means different errors in it. Ari -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ext John Woodgate Sent: 29. helmikuuta 2008 9:44 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Free Space Antenna Factor In message e2ceff6b0970a840bb7597dc31bec33003100...@esebe107.noe.nokia.co m, dated Fri, 29 Feb 2008, ari.honk...@nsn.com writes: read the appendix 3 of the NPL paper. They state that free-space antenna factor is appropriate for 3 m measurements. What is the context? I think it's a surprising statement if it is said to be applicable to all possible designs of antenna. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Free Space Antenna Factor
In message e2ceff6b0970a840bb7597dc31bec33003100...@esebe107.noe.nokia.com, dated Fri, 29 Feb 2008, ari.honk...@nsn.com writes: read the appendix 3 of the NPL paper. They state that free-space antenna factor is appropriate for 3 m measurements. What is the context? I think it's a surprising statement if it is said to be applicable to all possible designs of antenna. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Free Space Antenna Factor
In message c3ece0f6.1198d%ken.ja...@emccompliance.com, dated Thu, 28 Feb 2008, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com writes: If you have two different serial numbers of the same model antenna, and the antenna factors one to the next vary as much as shown below, then either the antenna quality control is very poor, or (much) more likely the antenna calibration tolerances are just that bad (OATS-to-OATS NSA can vary 8 dB, right?). Agreed. I would have thought that a free space antenna factor would be more like 30 meters, especially at 30 MHz, but I?m not an expert on that. I would agree. Obviously it depends on how accurate you want to be, but 10 m seems too close unless the antenna is very small, when it will anyway have a high antenna factor at 30 MHz. But if the comparison is valid, meaning your colleague?s ten meter antenna factor should correlate to your free space factor, then just use your colleague?s three meter numbers and be done with it. Yes: the uncertainty of your measurements for other reasons is likely to be quite a lot greater than the difference between the 10 m and 3 m numbers. You will gain nothing by paying for a three meter calibration of your antenna, aside from appeasing some accreditor whose understanding is limited to checking calibration stickers and record books. Too true. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Free Space Antenna Factor
In message 2a93eb060802281828j44085e5dt7db5e969b971...@mail.gmail.com, dated Thu, 28 Feb 2008, Grace Lin graceli...@gmail.com writes: The antenna vendor told me to use the free space antenna factors, then compare limit to 10-meter limits. Change vendor! What he is doing is to ignore the 2 dB or so difference in the antenna factors by setting the limit at 3 m 10 dB lower than the standard does. If you do that, your product will, of course, never be caught in violation, but will be up to nearly 10 dB over-tested. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Free Space Antenna Factor
Grace, read the appendix 3 of the NPL paper. They state that free-space antenna factor is appropriate for 3 m measurements. This is what we also use as it minimises the uncertainties from height scanning. Note that the free-space AF should not be used if you check your site NSA; there you need height-specific antenna factors. Regards, Ari Honkala _ From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ext Grace Lin Sent: 29. helmikuuta 2008 4:29 To: Luke Turnbull Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Free Space Antenna Factor Dear John, Ken, Luke and others, Thank you so much for your comments. I printed out the document from the link Luke provided. I ran out of time in the office to read it. Please allow me to explain my question more detail. One of antennas I purchased came with free space antenna factors. According to ANSI C63.5: 2006, free space antenna factors are done at 10-meter distance. I will perform radiated emission measurement at 3-meter. Should I use the free space antenna factors without any calculation? Or, is there any equation to convert free space antenna factors for measurement distance other than 10-meter? The antenna vendor told me to use the free space antenna factors, then compare limit to 10-meter limits. I am not convinced to do so as this will have about 10 dB difference. To confirm my concern, I had a friend, who works at a well-known commercial lab and has the same model of the antenna, fax me his antenna factors at 3m and 10m. I list some data below for your reference. Free space antenna factors are from my antenna. 3m and 10m data are horizontal polarization. 30MHz-19.6 (3m), 18.7 (10m), 17.8 (free space) 40MHz-14.2 (3m), 13.7 (10m), 11.9 (free space) 50MHz-9.9 (3m), 9.1 (10m), 7.3 (free space) 60MHz-6.8 (3m), 7.1 (10m), 5.45 (free space) 70MHz-7.2 (3m), 7.3 (10m), 5.2 (free space) 80MHz-8.7 (3m), 7.4 (10m), 6.5 (free space) 90MHz-10.2 (3m), 9.4 (10m), 8.75 (free space) 100MHz-11.8 (3m), 11.3 (10m), 10.5 (free space) 200MHz-10.9 (3m), 10.3 (10m), 9 (free space) 300MHz-14.5 (3m), 13.2 (10m), 13 (free space) 400MHz-17.1 (3m), 16.2 (10m), 15.9 (free space) 500MHz-18.6 (3m), 17.5 (10m), 17.25 (free space) 600MHz-19.9 (3m), 18.6 (10m), 18.5 (free space) 700MHz-20.2 (3m), 18.8 (10m), 19.18 (free space) 800MHz-21.3 (3m), 19.9 (10m), 19.6 (free space) 900MHz-22.2 (3m), 20.8 (10m), 20.35 (free space) 1000MHz-22.9 (3m), 20.9 (10m), 20.9 (free space) From the above data, I don't find any difference between 3m and 10m close to 10 dB. Thank you and look forward to your help. Best regards, Grace On 2/28/08, Luke Turnbull luke.turnb...@trw.com wrote: Grace, Have a look at the following guide from NPL, Page 41. (Sorry, you have to give them your name and address to download it). The correction is because the actual receiving element of a log-periodic may vary in distance between about 2.5 and 3.5m. The correction gives the field that would be at 3m distance from the product. http://publications.npl.co.uk/npl_web/pdf/mgpg4.pdf Good Luck, Luke Turnbull Grace Lin graceli...@gmail.com 27 February 2008 18:48 Dear Members, Could someone please teach me how to scale free space antenna factors for my 3-meter distance measurement? One antenna vendor told me that I could scale free space antenna factors. I couldn't reach this vendor at the moment. Thank you and look forward to hearing from you. Best regards, Grace - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Conekt is a trading division of TRW Limited Registered in England, No. 872948 Registered Office Address: Stratford Road, Solihull B90 4AX - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com
summer intern
Hi All, Is anyone looking for a Summer intern in Electrical Engineering? If so, my daughter is finishing up her Junior year in Electrical Engineering this June and is looking for a position. Her resume is at: http://www.dsmith.org/DDSmith/DDS_Resume2008.pdf She has two years part time experience working in this field. Please contact her directly (couple of ways are included in the resume) if you have a position open. Doug -- ___ _ Doug Smith \ / ) P.O. Box 1457 = Los Gatos, CA 95031-1457 _ / \ / \ _ TEL/FAX: 408-356-4186/358-3799 / /\ \ ] / /\ \ Mobile: 408-858-4528 | q-( ) | o |Email: d...@dsmith.org \ _ /]\ _ / Website: http://www.dsmith.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Free Space Antenna Factor
The second sentence of the first paragraph below is unclear. I meant to say there was as much difference between your free space antenna factor and the colleague’s ten meter factors as between the three and ten meter factors. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 _ From: Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:06:46 -0600 To: Untitled emc-p...@ieee.org Conversation: Free Space Antenna Factor Subject: Re: Free Space Antenna Factor I think the antenna factor data confirmed Mr. Woodgate’s assessment of your antenna salesperson. From a practical point-of-view, I would say that since there is as much difference on average between your free space antenna factors and the ten meter antenna factor of your colleague’s antenna, go ahead and use his three meter antenna factors and don’t sweat the details. I am really interested in Mr. Woodgate’s response to the following assertion, upon which the previous statement was based. If you have two different serial numbers of the same model antenna, and the antenna factors one to the next vary as much as shown below, then either the antenna quality control is very poor, or (much) more likely the antenna calibration tolerances are just that bad (OATS-to-OATS NSA can vary 8 dB, right?). I would have thought that a free space antenna factor would be more like 30 meters, especially at 30 MHz, but I’m not an expert on that. But if the comparison is valid, meaning your colleague’s ten meter antenna factor should correlate to your free space factor, then just use your colleague’s three meter numbers and be done with it. You will gain nothing by paying for a three meter calibration of your antenna, aside from appeasing some accreditor whose understanding is limited to checking calibration stickers and record books. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 _ From: Grace Lin graceli...@gmail.com List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 21:28:45 -0500 To: Luke Turnbull luke.turnb...@trw.com Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Free Space Antenna Factor Dear John, Ken, Luke and others, Thank you so much for your comments. I printed out the document from the link Luke provided. I ran out of time in the office to read it. Please allow me to explain my question more detail. One of antennas I purchased came with free space antenna factors. According to ANSI C63.5: 2006, free space antenna factors are done at 10-meter distance. I will perform radiated emission measurement at 3-meter. Should I use the free space antenna factors without any calculation? Or, is there any equation to convert free space antenna factors for measurement distance other than 10-meter? The antenna vendor told me to use the free space antenna factors, then compare limit to 10-meter limits. I am not convinced to do so as this will have about 10 dB difference. To confirm my concern, I had a friend, who works at a well-known commercial lab and has the same model of the antenna, fax me his antenna factors at 3m and 10m. I list some data below for your reference. Free space antenna factors are from my antenna. 3m and 10m data are horizontal polarization. 30MHz-19.6 (3m), 18.7 (10m), 17.8 (free space) 40MHz-14.2 (3m), 13.7 (10m), 11.9 (free space) 50MHz-9.9 (3m), 9.1 (10m), 7.3 (free space) 60MHz-6.8 (3m), 7.1 (10m), 5.45 (free space) 70MHz-7.2 (3m), 7.3 (10m), 5.2 (free space) 80MHz-8.7 (3m), 7.4 (10m), 6.5 (free space) 90MHz-10.2 (3m), 9.4 (10m), 8.75 (free space) 100MHz-11.8 (3m), 11.3 (10m), 10.5 (free space) 200MHz-10.9 (3m), 10.3 (10m), 9 (free space) 300MHz-14.5 (3m), 13.2 (10m), 13 (free space) 400MHz-17.1 (3m), 16.2 (10m), 15.9 (free space) 500MHz-18.6 (3m), 17.5 (10m), 17.25 (free space) 600MHz-19.9 (3m), 18.6 (10m), 18.5 (free space) 700MHz-20.2 (3m), 18.8 (10m), 19.18 (free space) 800MHz-21.3 (3m), 19.9 (10m), 19.6 (free space) 900MHz-22.2 (3m), 20.8 (10m), 20.35 (free space) 1000MHz-22.9 (3m), 20.9 (10m), 20.9 (free space) From the above data, I don't find any difference between 3m and 10m close to 10 dB. Thank you and look forward to your help. Best regards, Grace On 2/28/08, Luke Turnbull luke.turnb...@trw.com wrote: Grace, Have a look at the following guide from NPL, Page 41. (Sorry, you have to give them your name and address to download it). The correction is because the actual receiving element of a log-periodic may vary in distance between about 2.5 and 3.5m. The correction gives the field that would be at 3m distance from the product. http://publications.npl.co.uk/npl_web/pdf/mgpg4.pdf Good Luck, Luke Turnbull Grace Lin graceli...@gmail.com 27 February 2008 18:48 Dear Members, Could someone please teach me how to scale free space antenna factors for my 3-meter distance measurement? One antenna vendor told me that I could scale free space antenna factors. I couldn't reach this vendor at the moment. Thank you and look forward to
Re: Free Space Antenna Factor
I think the antenna factor data confirmed Mr. Woodgate’s assessment of your antenna salesperson. From a practical point-of-view, I would say that since there is as much difference on average between your free space antenna factors and the ten meter antenna factor of your colleague’s antenna, go ahead and use his three meter antenna factors and don’t sweat the details. I am really interested in Mr. Woodgate’s response to the following assertion, upon which the previous statement was based. If you have two different serial numbers of the same model antenna, and the antenna factors one to the next vary as much as shown below, then either the antenna quality control is very poor, or (much) more likely the antenna calibration tolerances are just that bad (OATS-to-OATS NSA can vary 8 dB, right?). I would have thought that a free space antenna factor would be more like 30 meters, especially at 30 MHz, but I’m not an expert on that. But if the comparison is valid, meaning your colleague’s ten meter antenna factor should correlate to your free space factor, then just use your colleague’s three meter numbers and be done with it. You will gain nothing by paying for a three meter calibration of your antenna, aside from appeasing some accreditor whose understanding is limited to checking calibration stickers and record books. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 _ From: Grace Lin graceli...@gmail.com List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 21:28:45 -0500 To: Luke Turnbull luke.turnb...@trw.com Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Free Space Antenna Factor Dear John, Ken, Luke and others, Thank you so much for your comments. I printed out the document from the link Luke provided. I ran out of time in the office to read it. Please allow me to explain my question more detail. One of antennas I purchased came with free space antenna factors. According to ANSI C63.5: 2006, free space antenna factors are done at 10-meter distance. I will perform radiated emission measurement at 3-meter. Should I use the free space antenna factors without any calculation? Or, is there any equation to convert free space antenna factors for measurement distance other than 10-meter? The antenna vendor told me to use the free space antenna factors, then compare limit to 10-meter limits. I am not convinced to do so as this will have about 10 dB difference. To confirm my concern, I had a friend, who works at a well-known commercial lab and has the same model of the antenna, fax me his antenna factors at 3m and 10m. I list some data below for your reference. Free space antenna factors are from my antenna. 3m and 10m data are horizontal polarization. 30MHz-19.6 (3m), 18.7 (10m), 17.8 (free space) 40MHz-14.2 (3m), 13.7 (10m), 11.9 (free space) 50MHz-9.9 (3m), 9.1 (10m), 7.3 (free space) 60MHz-6.8 (3m), 7.1 (10m), 5.45 (free space) 70MHz-7.2 (3m), 7.3 (10m), 5.2 (free space) 80MHz-8.7 (3m), 7.4 (10m), 6.5 (free space) 90MHz-10.2 (3m), 9.4 (10m), 8.75 (free space) 100MHz-11.8 (3m), 11.3 (10m), 10.5 (free space) 200MHz-10.9 (3m), 10.3 (10m), 9 (free space) 300MHz-14.5 (3m), 13.2 (10m), 13 (free space) 400MHz-17.1 (3m), 16.2 (10m), 15.9 (free space) 500MHz-18.6 (3m), 17.5 (10m), 17.25 (free space) 600MHz-19.9 (3m), 18.6 (10m), 18.5 (free space) 700MHz-20.2 (3m), 18.8 (10m), 19.18 (free space) 800MHz-21.3 (3m), 19.9 (10m), 19.6 (free space) 900MHz-22.2 (3m), 20.8 (10m), 20.35 (free space) 1000MHz-22.9 (3m), 20.9 (10m), 20.9 (free space) From the above data, I don't find any difference between 3m and 10m close to 10 dB. Thank you and look forward to your help. Best regards, Grace On 2/28/08, Luke Turnbull luke.turnb...@trw.com wrote: Grace, Have a look at the following guide from NPL, Page 41. (Sorry, you have to give them your name and address to download it). The correction is because the actual receiving element of a log-periodic may vary in distance between about 2.5 and 3.5m. The correction gives the field that would be at 3m distance from the product. http://publications.npl.co.uk/npl_web/pdf/mgpg4.pdf Good Luck, Luke Turnbull Grace Lin graceli...@gmail.com 27 February 2008 18:48 Dear Members, Could someone please teach me how to scale free space antenna factors for my 3-meter distance measurement? One antenna vendor told me that I could scale free space antenna factors. I couldn't reach this vendor at the moment. Thank you and look forward to hearing from you. Best regards, Grace - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike
