Re: [PSES] earthing through PCB traces

[Boštjan Glavič]

Thank you Rich. I will check  if it is possible to check PE trace cross-section.

I also need to consider contact from PE trace to enclosure through pads on PCB 
and screws.

Best regards,
Bostjan



-Original Message-
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 9:12 PM
To: Boštjan Glavič 
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] earthing through PCB traces



Hi Boštjan:


> What is your view to this statement? How should
we fill
> the verdict in the test report in this case with
pass or
> N/A?

I would say the verdict is "pass."  The basis is the paragraph I quoted.  

No matter the standard, the PE circuit must be capable of carrying the fault 
current.  For the unfused side of mains circuits, PE circular conductors must 
have the same cross-sectional area as the mains conductors.  On the load side 
of a fuse, the PE must have a cross-sectional area to carry 110% of the fuse 
current rating.  A PE conductor on a PCB need not have the same cross-sectional 
area as a circular conductor as a flat conductor can dissipate heat better than 
a circular conductor.  If the cross-sectional area of a PCB PE is equal to the 
cross-sectional area of a circular conductor, no test is needed.  If not, a 
test is necessary to show that the PCB can handle the current without 
overheating.  


Best regards,
Rich

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] earthing through PCB traces

[Richard Nute]

> I also know this. However some labs are not in
favor to
> this statement.They interpret it in different
way like this
> is only applicable to internal components of
sub-
> assembly that is IEC 60950-1 or IEC 60065
certified. In
> addition, it is only allowed during transition
period.

As far as I know, the matter has not been
submitted to an interpretation panel.  So, "some
labs" do not make a definitive interpretation that
must be followed by all labs.  

Having sat on TC108 when this matter was decided,
I understand that any construction that met the
requirements of 60065 or 60950-1 was acceptable
under 62368-1.


Rich
  

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] earthing through PCB traces

[Richard Nute]

Hi Boštjan:


> What is your view to this statement? How should
we fill
> the verdict in the test report in this case with
pass or
> N/A?

I would say the verdict is "pass."  The basis is
the paragraph I quoted.  

No matter the standard, the PE circuit must be
capable of carrying the fault current.  For the
unfused side of mains circuits, PE circular
conductors must have the same cross-sectional area
as the mains conductors.  On the load side of a
fuse, the PE must have a cross-sectional area to
carry 110% of the fuse current rating.  A PE
conductor on a PCB need not have the same
cross-sectional area as a circular conductor as a
flat conductor can dissipate heat better than a
circular conductor.  If the cross-sectional area
of a PCB PE is equal to the cross-sectional area
of a circular conductor, no test is needed.  If
not, a test is necessary to show that the PCB can
handle the current without overheating.  


Best regards,
Rich

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Not Our Area Question

[Jim Hulbert]

Article 2 of 2015/863:

Article 2

1.   Member States shall adopt and publish, by 31 December 2016 at the latest, 
the laws, regulations and administrative provisions necessary to comply with 
this Directive. They shall forthwith communicate to the Commission the text of 
those provisions.

They shall apply those provisions from 22 July 2019.


Jim Hulbert




-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] earthing through PCB traces

[John Woodgate]

Actually, that NOTE is very much not permitted by IEC rules. A committee
cannot mandate a future requirement. There absolutely must be a vote of
National Committees at the time. The normal voting processes for a Edition 3
would be sufficient, but it would not be permissible to claim that Edition 3
must delete the concession because Edition 2 forewarned it.

When there are different interpretations, TC108 has to decide on the correct
meaning.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England
We live in exiting times


-Original Message-
From: Boštjan Glavič [mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 7:21 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] earthing through PCB traces

Hi Rich,

I also know this. However some labs are not in favor to this statement.They
interpret it in different way like this is only applicable to internal
components of sub-assembly that is IEC 60950-1 or IEC 60065 certified. In
addition, it is only allowed during transition period.

During last TC 108 meeting there was no real consensus about this topic.
Also there was an issue raised that fire enclosure of some product will fail
requirement of new standard while it was OK for IEC 60950-1 and they will
make a proposal to change the requirement in the standard.

What is your view to this statement? How should we fill the verdict in the
test report in this case with pass or N/A?

Best regards,
Bostjan

> On 28. jun. 2016, at 19.56, Richard Nute  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Boštjan:
> 
> 
> Consider this IEC 62368-1, 4.1.1, paragraph:
> 
> "Components and subassemblies that comply with IEC
> 60950-1 or IEC 60065 are acceptable as part of equipment covered by 
> this standard without further evaluation other than to give 
> consideration to the appropriate use of the component or subassembly 
> in the end-product."
> 
> "NOTE  This paragraph will be deleted in edition 3 of this standard. 
> It is added here to provide a smooth transition from the latest 
> editions of IEC
> 60950-1 and IEC 60065 to this standard."
> 
> Does this help?
> 
> 
> Rich   
> 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

[PSES] Not Our Area Question

[Scott Douglas]

I know this is not the RoHS forum, but I am having trouble with a simple
question and hope someone here can point me in the right direction. Have
not been able to get a clear reading from "RoHS" web sites.

We make ITE/AV equipment, category 3 and 4 in RoHS Directive Annex I.

At what date must our product be compliant with RoHS 2.0 ( the added 4
substances restrictions)? I say immediately on publication of the first
country legislation implementing Directive (EU) 2015/863 or 31 December
2016. One of our factories is arguing that the additional 4 substance
restrictions do not apply to our products until 22 July 2019.

Which of us is correct? (If you feel generous, please cite page, paragraph,
rule where you base your comment on.)

Thank you one and all for your comments.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] earthing through PCB traces

[Boštjan Glavič]

Hi Rich,

I also know this. However some labs are not in favor to this statement.They 
interpret it in different way like this is only applicable to internal 
components of sub-assembly that is IEC 60950-1 or IEC 60065 certified. In 
addition, it is only allowed during transition period.

During last TC 108 meeting there was no real consensus about this topic. Also 
there was an issue raised that fire enclosure of some product will fail 
requirement of new standard while it was OK for IEC 60950-1 and they will make 
a proposal to change the requirement in the standard.

What is your view to this statement? How should we fill the verdict in the test 
report in this case with pass or N/A?

Best regards,
Bostjan

> On 28. jun. 2016, at 19.56, Richard Nute  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Boštjan:
> 
> 
> Consider this IEC 62368-1, 4.1.1, paragraph:
> 
> "Components and subassemblies that comply with IEC
> 60950-1 or IEC 60065 are acceptable as part of
> equipment covered by this standard without further
> evaluation other than to give consideration to the
> appropriate use of the component or subassembly in
> the end-product."
> 
> "NOTE  This paragraph will be deleted in edition 3
> of this standard. It is added here to provide a
> smooth transition from the latest editions of IEC
> 60950-1 and IEC 60065 to this standard."
> 
> Does this help?
> 
> 
> Rich   
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Boštjan Glavič
> [mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si]
>> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2016 11:20 AM
>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> Subject: Re: [PSES] earthing through PCB traces
>> 
>> Dear Ken, Brian,
>> 
>> Thank you for your reply. I know requirement of
> CSA
>> No. 04 and all shelfs are compliant to this
> requirement
>> since US/CAN ND required short-trace test.
> However
>> new standard has a bit different requirement and
> I
>> would like to find rationale for 25A protective
> current
>> rating. Why this solution is not acceptable any
> more.
>> 
>> I really need to be sure before I made a
> non-compliant
>> report to the customer.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> Bostjan
> 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

[John Woodgate]

Hey, my mother programmed in BASIC. Show respect!

At the end of March, IEC told CENELEC that it wasn't happy about the copyright 
status of ENs derived from IEC standards. However, IEC doesn't bother to 
copyright translations into minority languages, so in future we can have 
European standards only in Anglo-Saxon, Welsh, Breton, Swabian, etc.. National 
standards bodies will run compulsory 14-day total immersion courses in the 
appropriate language. But they will be free of charge.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England
We live in exiting times


-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 6:32 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

This was the general sentiment for the same discussion we previously had on 
this, which was memorialized in EDN or ED (do not remember).

Am not certain that many standards are developed with public monies, as the 
ANSI, ISO, and IEC are NGOs, so the EN/UL/CSA/etc adoption of a national 
version of their standards still requires someone to pay the bill. What is not 
understood is that since the vast majority of standards are written by 
volunteers from industry and other concerns, there should be minimal direct 
cost to these documents. Perhaps it is time to look at ANSI's non-profit status.

As most of my engineering colleagues are far more civilized and pragmatic than 
myself, will have to assume that there will be no engineering version of the 
storming  of Bastille in our near future, or any other such 
technoid-revolutionary flashpoint. But what can be done is to appeal to the 
corporate bottom line. Let them influence the system and see what mountains can 
be moved. But am still open to a well-organized IEC insurrection at the steps 
of their Swiss HQ. We can drink good ale and eat burritos while camped out in 
Geneva a la the 'Occupy' movement. And our front-line protestors can hurl 
horrendous insults and biting epitaphs such as "your mother programs in basic", 
or "your computer does not meet class B limits".

Brian

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 9:53 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

Standards produced by tax-payer funded bodies should be free to citizens, 
shouldn't they?

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M 
Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England We live in exiting times


-Original Message-
From: Cortland Richmond [mailto:k...@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 5:27 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

On 6/28/2016 10:59 AM, John Woodgate wrote:
> ny standards publisher that makes it difficult to use their standards 
> qualifies for a Darwin Award. How stupid can you get? (We don't know, 
> we aren't extinct yet.)
Hmm... Can I expect C63 etc. free on the FCC site? No? What a shame...


Cortland Richmond

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

[John Woodgate]

Cervelat.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England
We live in exiting times


-Original Message-
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 6:42 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

burritos in Geneva?  You mean bratwurst?

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] earthing through PCB traces

[Richard Nute]

Hi Boštjan:


Consider this IEC 62368-1, 4.1.1, paragraph:

"Components and subassemblies that comply with IEC
60950-1 or IEC 60065 are acceptable as part of
equipment covered by this standard without further
evaluation other than to give consideration to the
appropriate use of the component or subassembly in
the end-product."

"NOTE  This paragraph will be deleted in edition 3
of this standard. It is added here to provide a
smooth transition from the latest editions of IEC
60950-1 and IEC 60065 to this standard."

Does this help?


Rich   

> -Original Message-
> From: Boštjan Glavič
[mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si]
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2016 11:20 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] earthing through PCB traces
> 
> Dear Ken, Brian,
> 
> Thank you for your reply. I know requirement of
CSA
> No. 04 and all shelfs are compliant to this
requirement
> since US/CAN ND required short-trace test.
However
> new standard has a bit different requirement and
I
> would like to find rationale for 25A protective
current
> rating. Why this solution is not acceptable any
more.
> 
> I really need to be sure before I made a
non-compliant
> report to the customer.
> 
> Best regards,
> Bostjan

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

burritos in Geneva?  You mean bratwurst?

-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 1:32 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

This was the general sentiment for the same discussion we previously had on 
this, which was memorialized in EDN or ED (do not remember).

Am not certain that many standards are developed with public monies, as the 
ANSI, ISO, and IEC are NGOs, so the EN/UL/CSA/etc adoption of a national 
version of their standards still requires someone to pay the bill. What is not 
understood is that since the vast majority of standards are written by 
volunteers from industry and other concerns, there should be minimal direct 
cost to these documents. Perhaps it is time to look at ANSI's non-profit status.

As most of my engineering colleagues are far more civilized and pragmatic than 
myself, will have to assume that there will be no engineering version of the 
storming  of Bastille in our near future, or any other such 
technoid-revolutionary flashpoint. But what can be done is to appeal to the 
corporate bottom line. Let them influence the system and see what mountains can 
be moved. But am still open to a well-organized IEC insurrection at the steps 
of their Swiss HQ. We can drink good ale and eat burritos while camped out in 
Geneva a la the 'Occupy' movement. And our front-line protestors can hurl 
horrendous insults and biting epitaphs such as "your mother programs in basic", 
or "your computer does not meet class B limits".

Brian

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 9:53 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

Standards produced by tax-payer funded bodies should be free to citizens, 
shouldn't they?

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M 
Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England We live in exiting times


-Original Message-
From: Cortland Richmond [mailto:k...@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 5:27 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

On 6/28/2016 10:59 AM, John Woodgate wrote:
> ny standards publisher that makes it difficult to use their standards 
> qualifies for a Darwin Award. How stupid can you get? (We don't know, 
> we aren't extinct yet.)
Hmm... Can I expect C63 etc. free on the FCC site? No? What a shame...


Cortland Richmond

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

[Brian O'Connell]

This was the general sentiment for the same discussion we previously had on 
this, which was memorialized in EDN or ED (do not remember).

Am not certain that many standards are developed with public monies, as the 
ANSI, ISO, and IEC are NGOs, so the EN/UL/CSA/etc adoption of a national 
version of their standards still requires someone to pay the bill. What is not 
understood is that since the vast majority of standards are written by 
volunteers from industry and other concerns, there should be minimal direct 
cost to these documents. Perhaps it is time to look at ANSI's non-profit status.

As most of my engineering colleagues are far more civilized and pragmatic than 
myself, will have to assume that there will be no engineering version of the 
storming  of Bastille in our near future, or any other such 
technoid-revolutionary flashpoint. But what can be done is to appeal to the 
corporate bottom line. Let them influence the system and see what mountains can 
be moved. But am still open to a well-organized IEC insurrection at the steps 
of their Swiss HQ. We can drink good ale and eat burritos while camped out in 
Geneva a la the 'Occupy' movement. And our front-line protestors can hurl 
horrendous insults and biting epitaphs such as "your mother programs in basic", 
or "your computer does not meet class B limits".

Brian

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 9:53 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

Standards produced by tax-payer funded bodies should be free to citizens, 
shouldn't they?

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England
We live in exiting times


-Original Message-
From: Cortland Richmond [mailto:k...@earthlink.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 5:27 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

On 6/28/2016 10:59 AM, John Woodgate wrote:
> ny standards publisher that makes it difficult to use their standards 
> qualifies for a Darwin Award. How stupid can you get? (We don't know, 
> we aren't extinct yet.)
Hmm... Can I expect C63 etc. free on the FCC site? No? What a shame...


Cortland Richmond

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

[John Woodgate]

Standards produced by tax-payer funded bodies should be free to citizens, 
shouldn't they?

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England
We live in exiting times


-Original Message-
From: Cortland Richmond [mailto:k...@earthlink.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 5:27 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

On 6/28/2016 10:59 AM, John Woodgate wrote:
> ny standards publisher that makes it difficult to use their standards 
> qualifies for a Darwin Award. How stupid can you get? (We don't know, 
> we aren't extinct yet.)
Hmm... Can I expect C63 etc. free on the FCC site? No? What a shame...


Cortland Richmond

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

[Cortland Richmond]

On 6/28/2016 10:59 AM, John Woodgate wrote:
ny standards publisher that makes it difficult to use their standards 
qualifies for a Darwin Award. How stupid can you get? (We don't know, 
we aren't extinct yet.)

Hmm... Can I expect C63 etc. free on the FCC site? No? What a shame...


Cortland Richmond

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

[Ted Eckert]

Hello Dan,

IHS is an option.
https://global.ihs.com/

You have the option of buying an individual copy of a standard with a 
single-copy limit or you can build a standards library that allows you to 
purchase PDF copies of standards that can be shared across your organization. 
It’s not the cheapest option out there, but it does offer a lot of flexibility 
in ordering and format for standards.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Dan Roman, N.C.E. [mailto:danp...@verizon.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 6:25 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

All,

The topic of where to buy standards comes up every once in a while on this list 
and usually is based on price or licensing type requirements.  I understand 
that DRM is a necessary evil these days but I am looking for a vendor of 
standards that does not require that software be installed in order to protect 
their standards licensing.   The IT Department where I work is very oppressive 
and refused to install the DRM software for me to use the last standard I 
purchased.  The vendor would not issue a refund but instead sent me a paper 
copy.  They previously provided PDFs that I could read but only print one copy 
of, but they changed their DRM scheme so I can't use them any longer.  I like 
having a searchable PDF.

Any suggestions before I randomly start inquiring with the helpdesks at various 
standards vendors?

--
Dan Roman, N.C.E.
Senior Member, IEEE
IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
mailto:dan.ro...@ieee.org
http://www.ieee-pses.org
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas >
Mike Cantwell >

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher >
David Heald >

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

I buy whatever I can from https://www.evs.ee/shop , 2 licenses so PDF is not 
locked and is allowed t be put on server.

I bought a PDF recently from NFPA and it was not locked, only watermarked.

On occasion I have scanned hardcopy to PDF, then run the OCR scanner on it to 
make it searchable.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 10:59 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

It depends very much on who publishes the standards. For example, many European 
and IEC standards can be obtained from the Estonian Standards body in English 
at attractive prices and a choice of means of delivery. https://www.evs.ee/shop

ITU and ETSI standards are downloadable and free.

Any standards publisher that makes it difficult to use their standards 
qualifies for a Darwin Award. How stupid can you get? (We don't know, we aren't 
extinct yet.)

It's obviously possible to scan even a very large hard-copy document if you 
have access to an automatic scanner. Or you can scan bits of it, as and when 
you need to. Legal issues, yes, but that's because the law is based on what 
King Henry VIII's lawyers thought was a good idea. Will anyone find out? Since 
everyone knows that micro-scale copyright violation for personal (even if 
job-related) purposes is endemic and uncontrollable, it seems unlikely.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates 
Rayleigh England
We live in exiting times

From: Dan Roman, N.C.E. [mailto:danp...@verizon.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 2:25 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

All,

The topic of where to buy standards comes up every once in a while on this list 
and usually is based on price or licensing type requirements.  I understand 
that DRM is a necessary evil these days but I am looking for a vendor of 
standards that does not require that software be installed in order to protect 
their standards licensing.   The IT Department where I work is very oppressive 
and refused to install the DRM software for me to use the last standard I 
purchased.  The vendor would not issue a refund but instead sent me a paper 
copy.  They previously provided PDFs that I could read but only print one copy 
of, but they changed their DRM scheme so I can't use them any longer.  I like 
having a searchable PDF.

Any suggestions before I randomly start inquiring with the helpdesks at various 
standards vendors?

--
Dan Roman, N.C.E.
Senior Member, IEEE
IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
mailto:dan.ro...@ieee.org
http://www.ieee-pses.org
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas >
Mike Cantwell >

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher >
David Heald >
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas >
Mike Cantwell >

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher >
David Heald >

-

This message is from the IEEE 

Re: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

[John Woodgate]

It depends very much on who publishes the standards. For example, many European 
and IEC standards can be obtained from the Estonian Standards body in English 
at attractive prices and a choice of means of delivery. https://www.evs.ee/shop
 
ITU and ETSI standards are downloadable and free.
 
Any standards publisher that makes it difficult to use their standards 
qualifies for a Darwin Award. How stupid can you get? (We don't know, we aren't 
extinct yet.)
 
It's obviously possible to scan even a very large hard-copy document if you 
have access to an automatic scanner. Or you can scan bits of it, as and when 
you need to. Legal issues, yes, but that's because the law is based on what 
King Henry VIII's lawyers thought was a good idea. Will anyone find out? Since 
everyone knows that micro-scale copyright violation for personal (even if 
job-related) purposes is endemic and uncontrollable, it seems unlikely.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
  www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
We live in exiting times
 
From: Dan Roman, N.C.E. [mailto:danp...@verizon.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 2:25 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM
 
All,
 
The topic of where to buy standards comes up every once in a while on this list 
and usually is based on price or licensing type requirements.  I understand 
that DRM is a necessary evil these days but I am looking for a vendor of 
standards that does not require that software be installed in order to protect 
their standards licensing.   The IT Department where I work is very oppressive 
and refused to install the DRM software for me to use the last standard I 
purchased.  The vendor would not issue a refund but instead sent me a paper 
copy.  They previously provided PDFs that I could read but only print one copy 
of, but they changed their DRM scheme so I can't use them any longer.  I like 
having a searchable PDF.
 
Any suggestions before I randomly start inquiring with the helpdesks at various 
standards vendors?
 
-- 
Dan Roman, N.C.E.
Senior Member, IEEE
IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
mailto:dan.ro...@ieee.org
http://www.ieee-pses.org  
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
 >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas  >
Mike Cantwell  > 
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher  >
David Heald  > 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

[PSES] Electronic versions of standards and DRM

[Dan Roman, N.C.E.]

All,The topic of where to buy standards comes up every once in a while on this list and usually is based on price or licensing type requirements.  I understand that DRM is a necessary evil these days but I am looking for a vendor of standards that does not require that software be installed in order to protect their standards licensing.   The IT Department where I work is very oppressive and refused to install the DRM software for me to use the last standard I purchased.  The vendor would not issue a refund but instead sent me a paper copy.  They previously provided PDFs that I could read but only print one copy of, but they changed their DRM scheme so I can't use them any longer.  I like having a searchable PDF.Any suggestions before I randomly start inquiring with the helpdesks at various standards vendors? -- Dan Roman, N.C.E.Senior Member, IEEEIEEE Product Safety Engineering Societymailto:dan.ro...@ieee.orghttp://www.ieee-pses.org
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.


Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org
Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher  j.bac...@ieee.org
David Heald dhe...@gmail.com