Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen]

 I think that VFD ensure that the magnetic forces in the motor remain the same.
Magnetic forces are 1:1 related to motor current.
This way a substantial amount of torque remains available at each frequency
The key is simply keeping the drive voltage linearly related to the frequency,
so as the motor current remains at its rated value 

Regards,

Ing. Gert Gremmen
Approvals manager



+ ce marking of electrical/electronic equipment
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-Original Message-
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday 27 September 2016 14:58
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

I will raise another question to stir the pot and solicit comments from the 
motor experts.  We use AC motors driven from VFDs which by definition vary the 
frequency to the motors.  There are many different ways an application may run. 
 It may use the VFD simply to provide some control of motor 
acceleration/deceleration/braking.  It may use the VFD to run the motor a 
various continuous speeds or varying speeds during operation.  The VFD could be 
used to insure the rated input frequency is applied to the motor under 
continuous operation independent of the input power frequency.
How do we get from a motor with a fixed frequency rating on its nameplate to 
proper operation with a VFD in the various applications it could be operated 
in?  There are recommendations to use VFD rated motors but from what I have 
seen they are still rated at fixed frequency.

-Dave


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 8:27 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Thanks to all for the good advice. It was more helpful than you can imagine.

The Other Brian

-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 1:37 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

How components are used cannot be controlled by manufacturer, so your due 
diligence is to ship each unit with conditions of acceptability and 
install/operate instructions that are scoped per the standards that would apply 
to the component and to the end-use equipment. Carefully control what is on 
your website and what your sales peoples say to customer.

If a buyer or designer asks you about a use not within the nameplate ratings or 
instructions, the legally correct response is the unit has been assessed for 
use at the following operating conditions... blah.

There are other things that can be said or done, but your risk increases. Do 
not offer 'probably will' advice unless you have empirical test data supporting 
those operating conditions; and never admit that you have test data for 
operations outside of the unit's ratings.

Brian


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 7:39 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Dear experts,

Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that are rated 
"60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ power?  I believe 
the motors will run a little slower which will not affect the function of the 
product, but is there a safety issue with this?  The motors are thermally, 
overload, and short circuit protected.  They are "intermittent use" and not 
likely to overheat.

As a rule, we only market and sell such products to countries with 60hz power. 
However, a North America company might purchase one and ship it to one of their 
international locations with 50hz power without our knowledge. Do we need to be 
concerned about this?

Of 

Re: [PSES] Counterfeit tracking

[Brian O'Connell]

There have been some consistency problems with this service, probably from 
usage of direct CSS url links and/or my stupid brute-force script, so my 
simple-minded approach is to have my crawler run the login(which has changed 
several times), then resolve the href-tagged links, then go from there to each 
notification page. Could be done manually, but all hail the power of 
beautifulsoup.

Have not used for very long time, but so far does seem to be a decent source of 
global regulatory information.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: Kortas, Jamison [mailto:jamison.kor...@ecolab.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 4:23 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Counterfeit tracking

Hopefully - I am doing this right - this is my first post.

I recently found Notify U.S. 
https://tsapps.nist.gov/notifyus/data/home/home.cfm  which is run by the NIST 
in the Dept. Of Commerce and it notifies me of anything published by the WTO an 
others. You can filter it by field of interest and country. It is quite 
informative and free.

Here are the "fields of interest":

65  Agriculture
 49  Aircraft and Space Vehicle Engineering
 71  Chemical Technology
 93  Civil Engineering
 61  Clothing Industry
 CA  Conformity Assessment Procedures
 91  Construction Materials and Building
 97  Domestic and Commercial Equipment. Entertainment. Sports
 29  Electrical Engineering
 31  Electronics
 27  Energy and Heat Transfer Engineering
 13  Environment. Health Protection. Safety
 23  Fluid Systems and Components for General Use
Measurement of fluid flow, see 17.120
 67  Food Technology
 01  Generalities. Terminology. Standardization. Documentation
 81  Glass and Ceramics Industries
 11  Health Care Technology
 37  Image Technology
 35  Information Technology. Office Machines
 25  Manufacturing Engineering
This field includes standards for general use
 53  Materials Handling Equipment
 07  Mathematics. Natural Sciences
 21  Mechanical Systems and Components for General Use
 77  Metallurgy
 95  Military Engineering
 73  Mining and Minerals
 55  Packaging and Distribution of Goods
 87  Paint and Colour Industries
 85  Paper Technology
 75  Petroleum and Related Technologies
 17  Physical Metrology and Measurement. Physical Phenomena
 39  Precision Mechanics. Jewellery
 45  Railway Engineering
 43  Road Vehicle Engineering
 83  Rubber and Plastics Industries
 47  Shipbuilding and Marine Structures
 03  Sociology. Services. Company Organization and Management. Administration. 
Transport
 33  Telecommunications. Audio and Video Engineering
 19  Testing
This field includes standards for general use only
Analytical chemistry, see 71.040
 59  Textile and Leather Technology
 79  Wood Technology

Thanks,

-Jamison

-Original Message-
From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 2:53 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Counterfeit tracking

Thanks, I'll check out DuckDuckGo, it sounds like it may have possibilities.  

I have looked at rss aggregators in the past.  It's kind of hard to find one 
that consolidates similar postings in multiple locations.  This also may be 
worth another look.

All the best. Doug. 


  Original Message
From: oconne...@tamuracorp.com
Sent: September 27, 2016 1:39 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Reply-to: oconne...@tamuracorp.com
Subject: Re: [PSES] Counterfeit tracking

Distill will monitor selected pages, but is not very selective. And indiscrete 
browser plugins are not good for a corporate computer. You still need something 
to traverse the web and find new/alternate regulatory information. Related - 
there are commercial aggregation services for compliance engineers for $$$. And 
as for 'keywords' much of the SEO gaming will not allow a simplistic parsing 
for words or phrases to return reliable data sets.

Prefer the API for DuckDuckGo (duckduckgo.com/api) for search and url 
traversals, and if you wanna play code monkey, relatively easy to write 
'focused' crawlers that feed into parsers. My stuff is based on the common 
Python libs BeautifulSoup and scrapy. But this type of solution is useless to 
those not having a basic understanding of the insanity buried in a site's 
html/css/xml stuff.

The most common 'off-the-shelf' solutions, where there is no desire to code 
monkey, are to simply set up your mail client to suck on selected RSS feeds, or 
use some other feed aggregator. Many sites used the recently discontinued Yahoo 
Pipes, so there may be blinky data streams for some pages for a few more weeks.

Make life easier? As my gunny used to say, "life is supposed to be hard, and 
then you die..."

Brian


From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 10:43 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Counterfeit tracking

Hi all,

I suspect there are many compliance engineers that do what I do.  Once in a 
while I skim the various public notices web pages for the major certifying 

Re: [PSES] Counterfeit tracking

[Kortas, Jamison]

Hopefully - I am doing this right - this is my first post.

I recently found Notify U.S. 
https://tsapps.nist.gov/notifyus/data/home/home.cfm  which is run by the NIST 
in the Dept. Of Commerce and it notifies me of anything published by the WTO an 
others. You can filter it by field of interest and country. It is quite 
informative and free.

Here are the "fields of interest":

65  Agriculture
 49  Aircraft and Space Vehicle Engineering
 71  Chemical Technology
 93  Civil Engineering
 61  Clothing Industry
 CA  Conformity Assessment Procedures
 91  Construction Materials and Building
 97  Domestic and Commercial Equipment. Entertainment. Sports
 29  Electrical Engineering
 31  Electronics
 27  Energy and Heat Transfer Engineering
 13  Environment. Health Protection. Safety
 23  Fluid Systems and Components for General Use
Measurement of fluid flow, see 17.120
 67  Food Technology
 01  Generalities. Terminology. Standardization. Documentation
 81  Glass and Ceramics Industries
 11  Health Care Technology
 37  Image Technology
 35  Information Technology. Office Machines
 25  Manufacturing Engineering
This field includes standards for general use
 53  Materials Handling Equipment
 07  Mathematics. Natural Sciences
 21  Mechanical Systems and Components for General Use
 77  Metallurgy
 95  Military Engineering
 73  Mining and Minerals
 55  Packaging and Distribution of Goods
 87  Paint and Colour Industries
 85  Paper Technology
 75  Petroleum and Related Technologies
 17  Physical Metrology and Measurement. Physical Phenomena
 39  Precision Mechanics. Jewellery
 45  Railway Engineering
 43  Road Vehicle Engineering
 83  Rubber and Plastics Industries
 47  Shipbuilding and Marine Structures
 03  Sociology. Services. Company Organization and Management. Administration. 
Transport
 33  Telecommunications. Audio and Video Engineering
 19  Testing
This field includes standards for general use only
Analytical chemistry, see 71.040
 59  Textile and Leather Technology
 79  Wood Technology

Thanks,

-Jamison

-Original Message-
From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 2:53 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Counterfeit tracking

Thanks, I'll check out DuckDuckGo, it sounds like it may have possibilities.  

I have looked at rss aggregators in the past.  It's kind of hard to find one 
that consolidates similar postings in multiple locations.  This also may be 
worth another look.

All the best. Doug. 


  Original Message
From: oconne...@tamuracorp.com
Sent: September 27, 2016 1:39 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Reply-to: oconne...@tamuracorp.com
Subject: Re: [PSES] Counterfeit tracking

Distill will monitor selected pages, but is not very selective. And indiscrete 
browser plugins are not good for a corporate computer. You still need something 
to traverse the web and find new/alternate regulatory information. Related - 
there are commercial aggregation services for compliance engineers for $$$. And 
as for 'keywords' much of the SEO gaming will not allow a simplistic parsing 
for words or phrases to return reliable data sets.

Prefer the API for DuckDuckGo (duckduckgo.com/api) for search and url 
traversals, and if you wanna play code monkey, relatively easy to write 
'focused' crawlers that feed into parsers. My stuff is based on the common 
Python libs BeautifulSoup and scrapy. But this type of solution is useless to 
those not having a basic understanding of the insanity buried in a site's 
html/css/xml stuff.

The most common 'off-the-shelf' solutions, where there is no desire to code 
monkey, are to simply set up your mail client to suck on selected RSS feeds, or 
use some other feed aggregator. Many sites used the recently discontinued Yahoo 
Pipes, so there may be blinky data streams for some pages for a few more weeks.

Make life easier? As my gunny used to say, "life is supposed to be hard, and 
then you die..."

Brian


From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 10:43 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Counterfeit tracking

Hi all,

I suspect there are many compliance engineers that do what I do.  Once in a 
while I skim the various public notices web pages for the major certifying 
agencies to see if there is anything i should be aware of, although I am not 
very diligent about this.  I did find a collection of public notice pages and 
setup my web browser do the checking with the Distil app 
(https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__distill.io_=DQIDaQ=clRTYxLjfWTYQkksq4Trqw=SuXR4v_cWDGps50Ob7OgG3eGvjdtolb5h84QBM8NxmY=7QAVK8sQSuPDqZwUcSTjAhEEXqD8m4YKi7S5zSYVhac=sWEdW2ZS04aEuGoUxN2Npy5aUuh8R3jyR_oMV_YwIfM=
 ).  Alternatively if something suspicious shows up, a quick Google search with 
a few well conditioned keywords will sometimes bear fruit.

I was wondering if there are any resources available that provide a keyword 
searchable digest of all these diverse sources.  It 

Re: [PSES] Counterfeit tracking

[Doug Powell]

Thanks, I'll check out DuckDuckGo, it sounds like it may have possibilities.  

I have looked at rss aggregators in the past.  It's kind of hard to find one 
that consolidates similar postings in multiple locations.  This also may be 
worth another look.

All the best. Doug. 


  Original Message  
From: oconne...@tamuracorp.com
Sent: September 27, 2016 1:39 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Reply-to: oconne...@tamuracorp.com
Subject: Re: [PSES] Counterfeit tracking

Distill will monitor selected pages, but is not very selective. And indiscrete 
browser plugins are not good for a corporate computer. You still need something 
to traverse the web and find new/alternate regulatory information. Related - 
there are commercial aggregation services for compliance engineers for $$$. And 
as for 'keywords' much of the SEO gaming will not allow a simplistic parsing 
for words or phrases to return reliable data sets.

Prefer the API for DuckDuckGo (duckduckgo.com/api) for search and url 
traversals, and if you wanna play code monkey, relatively easy to write 
'focused' crawlers that feed into parsers. My stuff is based on the common 
Python libs BeautifulSoup and scrapy. But this type of solution is useless to 
those not having a basic understanding of the insanity buried in a site's 
html/css/xml stuff.

The most common 'off-the-shelf' solutions, where there is no desire to code 
monkey, are to simply set up your mail client to suck on selected RSS feeds, or 
use some other feed aggregator. Many sites used the recently discontinued Yahoo 
Pipes, so there may be blinky data streams for some pages for a few more weeks.

Make life easier? As my gunny used to say, "life is supposed to be hard, and 
then you die..."

Brian


From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 10:43 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Counterfeit tracking

Hi all,

I suspect there are many compliance engineers that do what I do.  Once in a 
while I skim the various public notices web pages for the major certifying 
agencies to see if there is anything i should be aware of, although I am not 
very diligent about this.  I did find a collection of public notice pages and 
setup my web browser do the checking with the Distil app (https://distill.io/). 
 Alternatively if something suspicious shows up, a quick Google search with a 
few well conditioned keywords will sometimes bear fruit.

I was wondering if there are any resources available that provide a keyword 
searchable digest of all these diverse sources.  It would make life easier.

Thanks,  Doug

-- 

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Counterfeit tracking

[Brian O'Connell]

Distill will monitor selected pages, but is not very selective. And indiscrete 
browser plugins are not good for a corporate computer. You still need something 
to traverse the web and find new/alternate regulatory information. Related - 
there are commercial aggregation services for compliance engineers for $$$. And 
as for 'keywords' much of the SEO gaming will not allow a simplistic parsing 
for words or phrases to return reliable data sets.

Prefer the API for DuckDuckGo (duckduckgo.com/api) for search and url 
traversals, and if you wanna play code monkey, relatively easy to write 
'focused' crawlers that feed into parsers. My stuff is based on the common 
Python libs BeautifulSoup and scrapy. But this type of solution is useless to 
those not having a basic understanding of the insanity buried in a site's 
html/css/xml stuff.

The most common 'off-the-shelf' solutions, where there is no desire to code 
monkey, are to simply set up your mail client to suck on selected RSS feeds, or 
use some other feed aggregator. Many sites used the recently discontinued Yahoo 
Pipes, so there may be blinky data streams for some pages for a few more weeks.

Make life easier? As my gunny used to say, "life is supposed to be hard, and 
then you die..."

Brian


From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 10:43 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Counterfeit tracking

Hi all,

I suspect there are many compliance engineers that do what I do.  Once in a 
while I skim the various public notices web pages for the major certifying 
agencies to see if there is anything i should be aware of, although I am not 
very diligent about this.  I did find a collection of public notice pages and 
setup my web browser do the checking with the Distil app (https://distill.io/). 
 Alternatively if something suspicious shows up, a quick Google search with a 
few well conditioned keywords will sometimes bear fruit.

I was wondering if there are any resources available that provide a keyword 
searchable digest of all these diverse sources.  It would make life easier.

Thanks,  Doug

-- 

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[Ted Eckert]

It's slightly off topic, but I thought I would share this 
sign from the days when you 
didn't want somebody to try to run their 25 Hz motor on a 60 Hz circuit.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 11:03 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries


Pleased to see the 3 Amigo's... er,  3 Brian's working thru 
this issue.  :>)

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org

From: Brian Gregory [mailto:brian_greg...@netzero.net]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 9:23 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries


The third Brian opines:   do what O'Connel says, then do a few tests, too!
Adjust load ratings for 50 Hz if necessary...

Brian Gregory
720-450-4933


-- Original Message --
From: "Brian O'Connell" 
>
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 17:36:38 +

How components are used cannot be controlled by manufacturer, so your due 
diligence is to ship each unit with conditions of acceptability and 
install/operate instructions that are scoped per the standards that would apply 
to the component and to the end-use equipment. Carefully control what is on 
your website and what your sales peoples say to customer.

If a buyer or designer asks you about a use not within the nameplate ratings or 
instructions, the legally correct response is the unit has been assessed for 
use at the following operating conditions... blah.

There are other things that can be said or done, but your risk increases. Do 
not offer 'probably will' advice unless you have empirical test data supporting 
those operating conditions; and never admit that you have test data for 
operations outside of the unit's ratings.

Brian


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 7:39 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Dear experts,

Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that are rated 
"60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ power?  I believe 
the motors will run a little slower which will not affect the function of the 
product, but is there a safety issue with this?  The motors are thermally, 
overload, and short circuit protected.  They are "intermittent use" and not 
likely to overheat.

As a rule, we only market and sell such products to countries with 60hz power. 
However, a North America company might purchase one and ship it to one of their 
international locations with 50hz power without our knowledge. Do we need to be 
concerned about this?

Of course, this fact has our sales force wondering if it is OK to market and 
sell 60hz motor driven products in countries with 50hz.  I really don't know. I 
cannot see a safety issue but one can say that the motor would be used in a way 
it is not intended to be used resulting in a higher risk if something did 
happening.

Any opinions on this?

Thanks,
The Other Brian




LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas >
Mike Cantwell >

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  >
David Heald: >

-

Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[Pete Perkins]

 

Pleased to see the 3 Amigo's. er,  3 Brian's working thru
this issue.  :>)

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

  p.perk...@ieee.org

 

From: Brian Gregory [mailto:brian_greg...@netzero.net] 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 9:23 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

 

 

The third Brian opines:   do what O'Connel says, then do a few tests, too!

Adjust load ratings for 50 Hz if necessary...

 

Brian Gregory
720-450-4933



-- Original Message --
From: "Brian O'Connell"  >
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 17:36:38 +

How components are used cannot be controlled by manufacturer, so your due
diligence is to ship each unit with conditions of acceptability and
install/operate instructions that are scoped per the standards that would
apply to the component and to the end-use equipment. Carefully control what
is on your website and what your sales peoples say to customer. 

If a buyer or designer asks you about a use not within the nameplate ratings
or instructions, the legally correct response is the unit has been assessed
for use at the following operating conditions... blah.

There are other things that can be said or done, but your risk increases. Do
not offer 'probably will' advice unless you have empirical test data
supporting those operating conditions; and never admit that you have test
data for operations outside of the unit's ratings.

Brian


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 7:39 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Dear experts,

Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that are
rated "60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ power?  I
believe the motors will run a little slower which will not affect the
function of the product, but is there a safety issue with this?  The motors
are thermally, overload, and short circuit protected.  They are
"intermittent use" and not likely to overheat.

As a rule, we only market and sell such products to countries with 60hz
power. However, a North America company might purchase one and ship it to
one of their international locations with 50hz power without our knowledge.
Do we need to be concerned about this?

Of course, this fact has our sales force wondering if it is OK to market and
sell 60hz motor driven products in countries with 50hz.  I really don't
know. I cannot see a safety issue but one can say that the motor would be
used in a way it is not intended to be used resulting in a higher risk if
something did happening.

Any opinions on this?

Thanks,
The Other Brian




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information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this
by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

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 >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Instructions:  

[PSES] Counterfeit tracking

[Doug Powell]

Hi all,

I suspect there are many compliance engineers that do what I do.  Once in a
while I skim the various public notices web pages for the major certifying
agencies to see if there is anything i should be aware of, although I am
not very diligent about this.  I did find a collection of public notice
pages and setup my web browser do the checking with the Distil app (
https://distill.io/).  Alternatively if something suspicious shows up, a
quick Google search with a few well conditioned keywords will sometimes
bear fruit.

I was wondering if there are any resources available that provide a keyword
searchable digest of all these diverse sources.  It would make life easier.

Thanks,  Doug



-- 

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

I will raise another question to stir the pot and solicit comments from the 
motor experts.  We use AC motors driven from VFDs which by definition vary the 
frequency to the motors.  There are many different ways an application may run. 
 It may use the VFD simply to provide some control of motor 
acceleration/deceleration/braking.  It may use the VFD to run the motor a 
various continuous speeds or varying speeds during operation.  The VFD could be 
used to insure the rated input frequency is applied to the motor under 
continuous operation independent of the input power frequency.
How do we get from a motor with a fixed frequency rating on its nameplate to 
proper operation with a VFD in the various applications it could be operated 
in?  There are recommendations to use VFD rated motors but from what I have 
seen they are still rated at fixed frequency.

-Dave


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 8:27 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Thanks to all for the good advice. It was more helpful than you can imagine.

The Other Brian

-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 1:37 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

How components are used cannot be controlled by manufacturer, so your due 
diligence is to ship each unit with conditions of acceptability and 
install/operate instructions that are scoped per the standards that would apply 
to the component and to the end-use equipment. Carefully control what is on 
your website and what your sales peoples say to customer.

If a buyer or designer asks you about a use not within the nameplate ratings or 
instructions, the legally correct response is the unit has been assessed for 
use at the following operating conditions... blah.

There are other things that can be said or done, but your risk increases. Do 
not offer 'probably will' advice unless you have empirical test data supporting 
those operating conditions; and never admit that you have test data for 
operations outside of the unit's ratings.

Brian


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 7:39 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Dear experts,

Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that are rated 
"60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ power?  I believe 
the motors will run a little slower which will not affect the function of the 
product, but is there a safety issue with this?  The motors are thermally, 
overload, and short circuit protected.  They are "intermittent use" and not 
likely to overheat.

As a rule, we only market and sell such products to countries with 60hz power. 
However, a North America company might purchase one and ship it to one of their 
international locations with 50hz power without our knowledge. Do we need to be 
concerned about this?

Of course, this fact has our sales force wondering if it is OK to market and 
sell 60hz motor driven products in countries with 50hz.  I really don't know. I 
cannot see a safety issue but one can say that the motor would be used in a way 
it is not intended to be used resulting in a higher risk if something did 
happening.

Any opinions on this?

Thanks,
The Other Brian




LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:

Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[Kunde, Brian]

Thanks to all for the good advice. It was more helpful than you can imagine.

The Other Brian

-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 1:37 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

How components are used cannot be controlled by manufacturer, so your due 
diligence is to ship each unit with conditions of acceptability and 
install/operate instructions that are scoped per the standards that would apply 
to the component and to the end-use equipment. Carefully control what is on 
your website and what your sales peoples say to customer.

If a buyer or designer asks you about a use not within the nameplate ratings or 
instructions, the legally correct response is the unit has been assessed for 
use at the following operating conditions... blah.

There are other things that can be said or done, but your risk increases. Do 
not offer 'probably will' advice unless you have empirical test data supporting 
those operating conditions; and never admit that you have test data for 
operations outside of the unit's ratings.

Brian


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 7:39 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Dear experts,

Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that are rated 
"60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ power?  I believe 
the motors will run a little slower which will not affect the function of the 
product, but is there a safety issue with this?  The motors are thermally, 
overload, and short circuit protected.  They are "intermittent use" and not 
likely to overheat.

As a rule, we only market and sell such products to countries with 60hz power. 
However, a North America company might purchase one and ship it to one of their 
international locations with 50hz power without our knowledge. Do we need to be 
concerned about this?

Of course, this fact has our sales force wondering if it is OK to market and 
sell 60hz motor driven products in countries with 50hz.  I really don't know. I 
cannot see a safety issue but one can say that the motor would be used in a way 
it is not intended to be used resulting in a higher risk if something did 
happening.

Any opinions on this?

Thanks,
The Other Brian




LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 


LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

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All 

Re: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

[ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen]

By applying a 60 Hz motor to 50 Hz you (your customer) violates one of the 
principles of building machines. The principle is that safe machines are built 
using safe components. The latter cannot be guaranteed anymore, so the machine 
is unsafe. Full stop. This is the agency way of safety thinking.

Let me try a slightly  non-conventional approach to product safety:

An electric motor (in terms of risk) is nothing else but a long copper wire and 
some iron, that in some mysterious way converts electrical hazards into 
mechanical hazards and thermal hazards. The mechanical hazards seem to reduce 
(slower speed), so I see no principal problem here. The electrical hazards are 
not principally different at 50 Hz .  What remains is a thermal hazard. 
Inductances in 60 Hz motors are lower than 50 Hz motors, so currents rise 
(120%), and so thermal copper dissipation. At 50 Hz eddy current related losses 
are lower, but the increased magnetisation might compensate for that.
In  the end, risks seem only thermal related. Adding a supplemental non 
auto-resetting temperature protection may provide the (additional safety 
protection layer) thermal safety your customers need. 

Although not really hazard related, you should also consider the increased 
start-up current.

Any 

Regards,

Ing. Gert Gremmen
Approvals manager



+ ce marking of electrical/electronic equipment
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-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Monday 26 September 2016 16:39
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Using 60hz motors in 50hz countries

Dear experts,

Can AC brushless motors (in this case 230V~ 3-phase 3hp motors) that are rated 
"60HZ" be used in products going to countries that have 50HZ power?  I believe 
the motors will run a little slower which will not affect the function of the 
product, but is there a safety issue with this?  The motors are thermally, 
overload, and short circuit protected.  They are "intermittent use" and not 
likely to overheat.

As a rule, we only market and sell such products to countries with 60hz power. 
However, a North America company might purchase one and ship it to one of their 
international locations with 50hz power without our knowledge. Do we need to be 
concerned about this?

Of course, this fact has our sales force wondering if it is OK to market and 
sell 60hz motor driven products in countries with 50hz.  I really don't know. I 
cannot see a safety issue but one can say that the motor would be used in a way 
it is not intended to be used resulting in a higher risk if something did 
happening.

Any opinions on this?

Thanks,
The Other Brian




LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: