Re: [PSES] Kikusui TOS3200 Leakage Current Meter

[Peter Tarver]

Thank you, Nute.

Page 70 of the manual indicates the ability to select a measuring network. 
According to the first paragraph on this page, it's a meter only for voltage 
measurements. Page 71 shows how to select a measurement network when using 
meter mode.

FWIW, I used Networks A, B and G on Page 114 and can see the effects of 
frequency filtering between these networks.

Also FWIW, I have a Simpson 228 and see similar results to meter mode 
measurements, though the levels are below the resolution of the 228 to 
accurately read the result.

Because the EUT is double insulated, the PE is always "faulted." I can't use 
the faceplate outlet for PCC (Protective Conductor Current) measurements, but I 
can for touch current measurements.


Peter Tarver

> -Original Message-
> From: Richard
> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 10:42
>
> Hello Peter:
>
> I downloaded the TOS3200 manual to better
> understand your problem.
>
> When the TOS3200 is in "meter mode," the terminals
> A-B comprise an ammeter (without the body
> impedance network).  This will yield a higher
> current than in the TC (touch current) mode.  I'm
> not sure if A-B can have the body impedance
> network switched in, although this is implied in
> Figure 4-11.
>
> For a two-wire (double-insulated) product, there
> is no earth wire so you cannot use the outlet for
> the measurement.  You must use the A-B terminals.
> The connections to a two-wire product are shown in
> "b" of Figure 4-7.

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Re: [PSES] Kikusui TOS3200 Leakage Current Meter

[Peter Tarver]

Thank you, John.

Agreed, but I have also moved the conductors around, used multiple wire 
routings, multiple power sources, power systems in two buildings, on a ground 
plane (this was happenstance in the second building)...

While the results have minor differences, the effects I'm seeing are always 
there.

I plan to try an isolation transformer, a la 60950-1 to see if there's a 
different response.

I have written to Kikusui and asked them a similar question. I'll report back


Peter Tarver

> -Original Message-
> From: John Woodgate
> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 23:30
>
> Stray capacitances are different in the two modes, but
> probably only affect
> measurements if there are relatively strong high-frequency
> components in the  current.

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Re: [PSES] Interior lighting for large control panels

[Douglas Nix]

Doug,

None of the machinery standards require lighting in the panel, they simply 
permit it where the designer wants to use it, and provide rules for the 
installation should you choose to install it. A risk assessment should be the 
deciding factor, and any customer preferences for the provision of lighting. 
Have a look at the questionnaire provided in the Annexes to IEC 60204-1 for 
development of the electrical system specification - I think you’ll get the 
idea.

--
Doug Nix
d...@mac.com
(519) 729-5704

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all 
we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and 
all there ever will be to know and understand."

Albert Einstein 

> On 20-Apr-17, at 23:42, Doug Powell  wrote:
> 
> All,
> 
> I just finished reviewing older editions of UL 508 (2005) and UL 508A (2003) 
> for any requirements specifically for interior lighting of large cabinets.  
> This would be for cabinets large enough to be a container with personnel 
> doors.  I do see requirements for how to implement "maintenance lighting" if 
> provided but not a requirement specifically stating maintenance lighting 
> "shall be provided". Also, if the latest editions of the UL standards now 
> include sections on risk assessment, I can see how a maintenance person who 
> is inadvertently entrapped (e.g. wind closed the door) would then could 
> become disoriented and egress lighting would be important to mitigate the 
> hazard.  
> 
> Any guidance on mandatory lighting requirements for maintenance is greatly 
> appreciated.
> 
> ​Thanks,  Doug
> 
> ​
> 
> -- 
> 
> Douglas E Powell
> 
> doug...@gmail.com 
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> >
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html 
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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>  can be used for graphics (in 
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
> 
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Re: [PSES] Kikusui TOS3200 Leakage Current Meter

[Brian O'Connell]

Agree with Mr. Woodgate, but there are additional problems. A good reference 
for this is Mr. Perkin's presentations and articles on the subject. Current and 
voltage waveforms in ground and touch Type Tests for switch-mode power supplies 
are very complex; and can vary in amplitude, frequency, crest factor, and duty 
cycle over the range of rated operating conditions, and will seldom be 
sinusoidal.

There is also the issue of multiple parallel current paths for leakage, which 
can be from the test configuration, loads, input reference and impedance, and 
the various influences of the Dark Side.

For touch current, ground current, and the related WV Type Tests, there is no 
commercial test equipment available that can satisfy my requirements. Have 
built several iterations of the basic HBM nodes and signal conditioning over 
the eons that have served me well and identified problems that commercial test 
equipment would probably not reveal.

Brian


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 11:30 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Kikusui TOS3200 Leakage Current Meter

Stray capacitances are different in the two modes, but probably only affect
measurements if there are relatively strong high-frequency components in the
current.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

-Original Message-
From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, 25 April 2017 00:49
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Kikusui TOS3200 Leakage Current Meter

Hello.

I am using a Kikusui TOS3200 to measure touch current for a 61010-1
application.

The product is double-insulated and has accessible USB port connector shells
connected to the secondary circuit reference.

When using the TOS3200 in meter mode (using the two external meter leads), I
obtain different results than if I measure using the faceplate 5-15R outlet
and one external meter lead. For each test, I'm using the same measurement
networks when attempting to correlate the results.

When using the outlet, the meter lead connects to the USB shell.

When in meter mode, I am connecting one lead to the USB connector shell and
one lead to the power conductor of interest.

Has anyone experienced this with either the TOS3200 or other leakage/touch
current meters?

FWIW, the manual does not indicate any special considerations are needed
when using meter mode.

The instrument is in good condition and went through a calibration
verification in AUG2016.

The currents are within "Measurement range setting Range 1," but the meter
is set in auto range mode. I plan some additional experiments using defined
ranges, rather than auto in the next day or so.


Peter Tarver

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Re: [PSES] Kikusui TOS3200 Leakage Current Meter

[Richard Nute]

Hello Peter:

I downloaded the TOS3200 manual to better
understand your problem.

When the TOS3200 is in "meter mode," the terminals
A-B comprise an ammeter (without the body
impedance network).  This will yield a higher
current than in the TC (touch current) mode.  I'm
not sure if A-B can have the body impedance
network switched in, although this is implied in
Figure 4-11.  

For a two-wire (double-insulated) product, there
is no earth wire so you cannot use the outlet for
the measurement.  You must use the A-B terminals.
The connections to a two-wire product are shown in
"b" of Figure 4-7.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
Rich


> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Tarver
> [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 4:49 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Kikusui TOS3200 Leakage Current
Meter
> 
> Hello.
> 
> I am using a Kikusui TOS3200 to measure touch
current for
> a 61010-1 application.
> 
> The product is double-insulated and has
accessible USB port
> connector shells connected to the secondary
circuit
> reference.
> 
> When using the TOS3200 in meter mode (using the
two
> external meter leads), I obtain different
results than if I
> measure using the faceplate 5-15R outlet and one
external
> meter lead. For each test, I'm using the same
measurement
> networks when attempting to correlate the
results.
> 
> When using the outlet, the meter lead connects
to the USB
> shell.
> 
> When in meter mode, I am connecting one lead to
the USB
> connector shell and one lead to the power
conductor of
> interest.
> 
> Has anyone experienced this with either the
TOS3200 or
> other leakage/touch current meters?
> 
> FWIW, the manual does not indicate any special
> considerations are needed when using meter mode.
> 
> The instrument is in good condition and went
through a
> calibration verification in AUG2016.
> 
> The currents are within "Measurement range
setting Range
> 1," but the meter is set in auto range mode. I
plan some
> additional experiments using defined ranges,
rather than
> auto in the next day or so.
> 
> 
> Peter Tarver

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Re: [PSES] Kikusui TOS3200 Leakage Current Meter

[John Woodgate]

Stray capacitances are different in the two modes, but probably only affect
measurements if there are relatively strong high-frequency components in the
current.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

-Original Message-
From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, 25 April 2017 00:49
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Kikusui TOS3200 Leakage Current Meter

Hello.

I am using a Kikusui TOS3200 to measure touch current for a 61010-1
application.

The product is double-insulated and has accessible USB port connector shells
connected to the secondary circuit reference.

When using the TOS3200 in meter mode (using the two external meter leads), I
obtain different results than if I measure using the faceplate 5-15R outlet
and one external meter lead. For each test, I'm using the same measurement
networks when attempting to correlate the results.

When using the outlet, the meter lead connects to the USB shell.

When in meter mode, I am connecting one lead to the USB connector shell and
one lead to the power conductor of interest.

Has anyone experienced this with either the TOS3200 or other leakage/touch
current meters?

FWIW, the manual does not indicate any special considerations are needed
when using meter mode.

The instrument is in good condition and went through a calibration
verification in AUG2016.

The currents are within "Measurement range setting Range 1," but the meter
is set in auto range mode. I plan some additional experiments using defined
ranges, rather than auto in the next day or so.


Peter Tarver

The information contained in this message may be privileged and
confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity to
whom it is addressed or by their designee. If the reader of this message is
not the intended recipient, you are on notice that any distribution of this
message, in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy
any copy of this message!

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