[PSES] SV: Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse

[Amund Westin]

I'll try to describe.

Unfortunately, I can't include pictures or plots.

 

 

Product: Indoor Climate Central

*   3-phase 400V/16A system (L3,L2,L1,N,PE)
*   2 pcs 1-phase fans 500W (L1-N, L3-N)
*   1 pcs touch panel / control module (L3-N) -> separate modul
*   Heating elements 2x2200W (L1,L2,L3)

 

 

3 pcs Schaffner FN2030-10-06 inserted on the power lines to the fans and
touch panel / control module.

>From the 3-phase inlet terminals and to the filter positions for the fans,
the internal cable lengths are approximate 1 meter. 

The cable length from the terminals and to the touch panel / control module
is appox. 2 meters.

A 3-phace Schaffner filter (right by the terminals blocks), is considered to
solve the conducted emission problem, but it is much more expensive than 3 x
1-phase filters.

 

Initial measurements (no filters) showed noise around 3MHz (62dBuV QP and
44dBuV AVG).

In addition, several spikes as 375kHz, 500kHz, 625kHz . with the measured
values at 625kHz like 52dBuV peak, 51dBuV QP and 47dBuV AVG.

With all filters inserted, the levels at 3MHz increase by 4-5 dB.

 

Comparing measurements as no filters vs. filters to the fans only, the
spectrum looks almost equal, when measuring at the N-phase.

It seams that N-phase noise is higher than L1, L2, and L3 noise.

 

Is the grounding good enough through the EUT and where the filters are
connected?

Do the long cable lengths (1-2 meters) pick up noise?

The separate module, what about that ground connection to the main part?

Correct type of filter?

 

..

 

BR

Amund

 

 

 

 

 

 

-Opprinnelig melding-

Fra: Amund Westin 

Sendt: 28. juni 2020 10:59

Til: EMC PSTC 

Emne: Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse

 

 

A 3-phase product has three internal AC driven devices.

The product fails on Conducted emission. When connecting AC filters to each
internal AC driven devices, the emission gets even worse.

 

Any clue about this phenomena? Is it some kind of impedance mismatch which
derate the filters performance?

 

BR

Amund


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[PSES] Wireless Self-Generated EMI Webinar - July 16, 2020

[Ken Wyatt]

Hi All, just a short note, I’ll be presenting a webinar on self-generated EMI 
for wireless and IoT products this coming July 16, 2020.

There will be two presentations; one for the U.S and EU and one for APAC. We’ll 
discuss why it affects cellular and other wireless modules, how to characterize 
the issue and several mitigations for reducing the on-board EMI.

More information and registration may be found here: 
http://www.emc-seminars.com/page6/Schedule.html 
 

Cheers, Ken

___

I'm here to help you succeed! Feel free to call or email with any questions 
related to EMC or EMI troubleshooting - at no obligation. I'm always happy to 
help!

Kenneth Wyatt
Wyatt Technical Services LLC
56 Aspen Dr.
Woodland Park, CO 80863

Phone: (719) 310-5418

Web Site  | Blog 
The EMC Blog (EDN) 
Subscribe to Newsletter 
Connect with me on LinkedIn 

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Re: [PSES] Currency requirements for FCC Part 15/ISED transmitter test reports

[michaeld]

Hi all,

 

As per RSS-GEN (ISED Canada):

 

For equipment certification, the test report shall not be dated more than 12
months before the application for equipment certification is submitted.  The
tests within the test report may have been conducted more than 12 months
before this date but must remain valid with the applicable requirements.  In
addition, the test report shall include the test laboratory company number
assigned by ISED or the Conformity Assessment Body Identifier (CABID).

 

 

Thanks,

 

Michael.

 

 

Michael Derby 

Senior Regulatory Engineer 

Director 

ACB Europe 

 

Certification Resource for the Wireless Industry 

Web: www.acbcert.com 

  

e-mail:  micha...@acbcert.com 

Mobile phone:   (+44) 7939 880829   (UK area code) 

Corporate office phone: USA:   (+1) 703 847 4700 

 

This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential and
exempt from disclosure under applicable law.

 

 

 

 

From: Paasche, Dieter  
Sent: 29 June 2020 20:37
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Currency requirements for FCC Part 15/ISED transmitter
test reports

 

As far as I know  in Canada and for ISED it is OK provided that you product
complies to the latest version (issue) of the standard. 

 

Sincerely, 

 

Dieter Paasche

Senior Product Developer, Electrical

CHRISTIE

809 Wellington Street North

Kitchener, ON N2G 4Y7

Phone: 519-744-8005 ext.7211

  www.christiedigital.com

 

This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is confidential.  Any
unauthorized use, distribution or disclosure is prohibited.  If you have
received this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender by reply
e-mail or telephone and delete it and any attachments from your computer
system and records.

 

From: Dennis Ward <0dbeaa892a40-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org
 > 
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 3:11 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: Re: [PSES] Currency requirements for FCC Part 15/ISED transmitter
test reports

 

You are correct in that the actual FCC rules do not prescribe how long a
test report is good for.  What you will find however, is that the FCC will
generally require attestations from the grantee that any report older than
one year still reflects the accuracy of the test results for the device.

Test reports as old as three years or more have been accepted by the FCC as
long as the attestations are provided.  These attestation must generally
come from the grantee, not the test lab.  These attestations will generally
include attestations that the device has not changed in any way that affects
the emissions characteristics of the device.

 

As you stated, ISED is different and will not accept test reports after a
certain time has elapsed.

 

Thanks 

 


Dennis Ward
Senior Reviewing Engineer
PCTEST Engineering Laboratory, LLC.
7185 Oakland Mills Road
Columbia, MD  21045
1 410 290 6652)

  dennis.w...@pctest.com |
 www.pctest.com |
 www.element.com 

This communication and any attachment contain information from PCTEST
Engineering Laboratory, LLC. and is intended for the exclusive use of the
recipient(s) named above.

 

From: Sykes, Bob mailto:bob.sy...@gilbarco.com> > 
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 11:53 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: [PSES] Currency requirements for FCC Part 15/ISED transmitter test
reports

 

CAUTION:This email originated from outside of Element Materials Technology.
DO NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and
know the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if you are in any
doubt about this email.

 

Worldly Experts,

 

I seem to recall that exists some sort of shelf life limitation on re-using
FCC/ISED test reports for subsequent new Certifications.  I am unable to
find documentation of this in the FCC Rules or KBDs.  Perhaps this is just
for Canada?  (I have a little more difficulty searching ISED) Or perhaps I
was dreaming.  Can anyone shed some light?

 

adTHANKSvance,

Bob Sykes

 

  _  

Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If
you are not the in

Re: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.

[Paasche, Dieter]

Hi,

There is one exception in the FCC part 15 standard, but the way you are 
presenting the problem it looks to me that you cannot apply, as you might not 
comply with the requirements of 15.5. I put it here anyways.

§15.23   Home-built devices.
(a) Equipment authorization is not required for devices that are not marketed, 
are not constructed from a kit, and are built in quantities of five or less for 
personal use.
(b) It is recognized that the individual builder of home-built equipment may 
not possess the means to perform the measurements for determining compliance 
with the regulations. In this case, the builder is expected to employ good 
engineering practices to meet the specified technical standards to the greatest 
extent practicable. The provisions of §15.5 apply to this equipment.

§15.5   General conditions of operation.
(a) Persons operating intentional or unintentional radiators shall not be 
deemed to have any vested or recognizable right to continued use of any given 
frequency by virtue of prior registration or certification of equipment, or, 
for power line carrier systems, on the basis of prior notification of use 
pursuant to §90.35(g) of this chapter.
(b) Operation of an intentional, unintentional, or incidental radiator is 
subject to the conditions that no harmful interference is caused and that 
interference must be accepted that may be caused by the operation of an 
authorized radio station, by another intentional or unintentional radiator, by 
industrial, scientific and medical (ISM) equipment, or by an incidental 
radiator.
(c) The operator of a radio frequency device shall be required to cease 
operating the device upon notification by a Commission representative that the 
device is causing harmful interference. Operation shall not resume until the 
condition causing the harmful interference has been corrected.
(d) Intentional radiators that produce Class B emissions (damped wave) are 
prohibited.



Sincerely,

Dieter Paasche
Senior Product Developer, Electrical
CHRISTIE
809 Wellington Street North
Kitchener, ON N2G 4Y7
Phone: 519-744-8005 ext.7211
www.christiedigital.com

This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is confidential.  Any 
unauthorized use, distribution or disclosure is prohibited.  If you have 
received this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail 
or telephone and delete it and any attachments from your computer system and 
records.

From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 1:36 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.

Thank you!

From: Dennis Ward mailto:dennis.w...@pctest.com>>
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 11:29 AM
To: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com>>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.


 This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: 
dennis.w...@pctest.com
Simple answer, NO it cannot be used.
In fact, it cannot even be used within the companies premises without being 
certified.  Any part 15 intentional radiator, no matter where used, be it on a 
company’s premises or anywhere, must be certified.  The only exceptions to this 
are found in CFR 47 2.805.

In some instances, some try to use the idea that if a wifi device is used by 
the government, it does not require certification.  This too is not correct.  
While government frequencies are not under the authority of the FCC, devices 
using non-government frequencies necessarily fall under the authority of the 
FCC.  Thus, any government agency using a device such as a wifi transmitter 
must use certified wifi devices, or must have their specific wifi device 
certified in order to be used.

Thanks

[cid:image001.png@01D64E2B.A6EBF490]
Dennis Ward
Senior Reviewing Engineer
PCTEST Engineering Laboratory, LLC.
7185 Oakland Mills Road
Columbia, MD  21045
1 410 290 6652)

dennis.w...@pctest.com | 
www.pctest.com
 | 
www.element.com

This communication and any attachment contain information from PCTEST 
Engineering Laboratory, LLC. and is intended for the exclusive use of the 
recipient(s) named above.

From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com>>
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 10:14 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.OR

Re: [PSES] Currency requirements for FCC Part 15/ISED transmitter test reports

[Paasche, Dieter]

As far as I know  in Canada and for ISED it is OK provided that you product 
complies to the latest version (issue) of the standard.

Sincerely,

Dieter Paasche
Senior Product Developer, Electrical
CHRISTIE
809 Wellington Street North
Kitchener, ON N2G 4Y7
Phone: 519-744-8005 ext.7211
www.christiedigital.com

This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is confidential.  Any 
unauthorized use, distribution or disclosure is prohibited.  If you have 
received this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail 
or telephone and delete it and any attachments from your computer system and 
records.

From: Dennis Ward <0dbeaa892a40-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 3:11 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Currency requirements for FCC Part 15/ISED transmitter test 
reports

You are correct in that the actual FCC rules do not prescribe how long a test 
report is good for.  What you will find however, is that the FCC will generally 
require attestations from the grantee that any report older than one year still 
reflects the accuracy of the test results for the device.
Test reports as old as three years or more have been accepted by the FCC as 
long as the attestations are provided.  These attestation must generally come 
from the grantee, not the test lab.  These attestations will generally include 
attestations that the device has not changed in any way that affects the 
emissions characteristics of the device.

As you stated, ISED is different and will not accept test reports after a 
certain time has elapsed.

Thanks

[cid:image001.png@01D64E2B.172F62B0]
Dennis Ward
Senior Reviewing Engineer
PCTEST Engineering Laboratory, LLC.
7185 Oakland Mills Road
Columbia, MD  21045
1 410 290 6652)

dennis.w...@pctest.com | 
www.pctest.com
 | 
www.element.com

This communication and any attachment contain information from PCTEST 
Engineering Laboratory, LLC. and is intended for the exclusive use of the 
recipient(s) named above.

From: Sykes, Bob mailto:bob.sy...@gilbarco.com>>
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 11:53 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Currency requirements for FCC Part 15/ISED transmitter test 
reports


CAUTION:This email originated from outside of Element Materials Technology. DO 
NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know 
the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if you are in any doubt 
about this email.

Worldly Experts,

I seem to recall that exists some sort of shelf life limitation on re-using 
FCC/ISED test reports for subsequent new Certifications.  I am unable to find 
documentation of this in the FCC Rules or KBDs.  Perhaps this is just for 
Canada?  (I have a little more difficulty searching ISED) Or perhaps I was 
dreaming.  Can anyone shed some light?

adTHANKSvance,
Bob Sykes



Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you 
are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the 
sender and delete this message.
-


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/

Re: [PSES] Currency requirements for FCC Part 15/ISED transmitter test reports

[Dennis Ward]

You are correct in that the actual FCC rules do not prescribe how long a test 
report is good for.  What you will find however, is that the FCC will generally 
require attestations from the grantee that any report older than one year still 
reflects the accuracy of the test results for the device.
Test reports as old as three years or more have been accepted by the FCC as 
long as the attestations are provided.  These attestation must generally come 
from the grantee, not the test lab.  These attestations will generally include 
attestations that the device has not changed in any way that affects the 
emissions characteristics of the device.

As you stated, ISED is different and will not accept test reports after a 
certain time has elapsed.

Thanks

[cid:image002.png@01D64E0E.6688D340]
Dennis Ward
Senior Reviewing Engineer
PCTEST Engineering Laboratory, LLC.
7185 Oakland Mills Road
Columbia, MD  21045
1 410 290 6652)

dennis.w...@pctest.com | 
www.pctest.com | 
www.element.com

This communication and any attachment contain information from PCTEST 
Engineering Laboratory, LLC. and is intended for the exclusive use of the 
recipient(s) named above.

From: Sykes, Bob 
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 11:53 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Currency requirements for FCC Part 15/ISED transmitter test 
reports


CAUTION:This email originated from outside of Element Materials Technology. DO 
NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know 
the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if you are in any doubt 
about this email.

Worldly Experts,

I seem to recall that exists some sort of shelf life limitation on re-using 
FCC/ISED test reports for subsequent new Certifications.  I am unable to find 
documentation of this in the FCC Rules or KBDs.  Perhaps this is just for 
Canada?  (I have a little more difficulty searching ISED) Or perhaps I was 
dreaming.  Can anyone shed some light?

adTHANKSvance,
Bob Sykes



Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you 
are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the 
sender and delete this message.
-


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[PSES] Currency requirements for FCC Part 15/ISED transmitter test reports

[Sykes, Bob]

Worldly Experts,

I seem to recall that exists some sort of shelf life limitation on re-using 
FCC/ISED test reports for subsequent new Certifications.  I am unable to find 
documentation of this in the FCC Rules or KBDs.  Perhaps this is just for 
Canada?  (I have a little more difficulty searching ISED) Or perhaps I was 
dreaming.  Can anyone shed some light?

adTHANKSvance,
Bob Sykes



Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you 
are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the 
sender and delete this message.

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http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
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Re: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.

[Grasso, Charles [Outlook]]

Thank you!

From: Dennis Ward 
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 11:29 AM
To: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] ; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.


 This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: 
dennis.w...@pctest.com
Simple answer, NO it cannot be used.
In fact, it cannot even be used within the companies premises without being 
certified.  Any part 15 intentional radiator, no matter where used, be it on a 
company’s premises or anywhere, must be certified.  The only exceptions to this 
are found in CFR 47 2.805.

In some instances, some try to use the idea that if a wifi device is used by 
the government, it does not require certification.  This too is not correct.  
While government frequencies are not under the authority of the FCC, devices 
using non-government frequencies necessarily fall under the authority of the 
FCC.  Thus, any government agency using a device such as a wifi transmitter 
must use certified wifi devices, or must have their specific wifi device 
certified in order to be used.

Thanks

[cid:image001.png@01D64E09.798A3060]
Dennis Ward
Senior Reviewing Engineer
PCTEST Engineering Laboratory, LLC.
7185 Oakland Mills Road
Columbia, MD  21045
1 410 290 6652)

dennis.w...@pctest.com | 
www.pctest.com | 
www.element.com

This communication and any attachment contain information from PCTEST 
Engineering Laboratory, LLC. and is intended for the exclusive use of the 
recipient(s) named above.

From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com>>
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 10:14 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.


CAUTION:This email originated from outside of Element Materials Technology. DO 
NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know 
the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if you are in any doubt 
about this email.
Hello all,

Thanks for the followup questions! You all of course realize I am asking for a 
friend 😊

I am referring to the WiFi radios in the US market. So for example if company A 
designs a piece
of test gear with WiFi radios (this question could also apply to 
RF4CE/Bluetooth etc) can
that piece of test gear be used outside of company A’s premises without 
certified radios?


[Working From Home]
Charles Grasso
Dish Technologies
(c) 303-204-2974
(h) 303-317-5530
(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com
(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com



From: micha...@acbcert.com 
mailto:micha...@acbcert.com>>
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 10:37 AM
To: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com>>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.


 This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: 
micha...@acbcert.com
Hi Charles,

Any idea which country you’re thinking about?   USA?   Canada?   EU?   Japan?

In all the cases I can think of, I agree that  “err, what?  No!”  is the 
correct answer.


Michael.


From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com>>
Sent: 29 June 2020 17:28
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.

Hello EMC standards gurus!!!

I am being told  that the use of uncertified radios (think WIFi)  in the field 
is permitted
as long as there are no commercial transactions involved.

This makes no sense to me. Am I wrong?

[Working From Home]
Charles Grasso
Dish Technologies
(c) 303-204-2974
(h) 303-317-5530
(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com
(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>
-
---

Re: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.

[Dennis Ward]

Simple answer, NO it cannot be used.
In fact, it cannot even be used within the companies premises without being 
certified.  Any part 15 intentional radiator, no matter where used, be it on a 
company’s premises or anywhere, must be certified.  The only exceptions to this 
are found in CFR 47 2.805.

In some instances, some try to use the idea that if a wifi device is used by 
the government, it does not require certification.  This too is not correct.  
While government frequencies are not under the authority of the FCC, devices 
using non-government frequencies necessarily fall under the authority of the 
FCC.  Thus, any government agency using a device such as a wifi transmitter 
must use certified wifi devices, or must have their specific wifi device 
certified in order to be used.

Thanks

[cid:image001.png@01D64E00.1BF92E50]
Dennis Ward
Senior Reviewing Engineer
PCTEST Engineering Laboratory, LLC.
7185 Oakland Mills Road
Columbia, MD  21045
1 410 290 6652)

dennis.w...@pctest.com | 
www.pctest.com | 
www.element.com

This communication and any attachment contain information from PCTEST 
Engineering Laboratory, LLC. and is intended for the exclusive use of the 
recipient(s) named above.

From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 10:14 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.


CAUTION:This email originated from outside of Element Materials Technology. DO 
NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know 
the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if you are in any doubt 
about this email.
Hello all,

Thanks for the followup questions! You all of course realize I am asking for a 
friend 😊

I am referring to the WiFi radios in the US market. So for example if company A 
designs a piece
of test gear with WiFi radios (this question could also apply to 
RF4CE/Bluetooth etc) can
that piece of test gear be used outside of company A’s premises without 
certified radios?


[Working From Home]
Charles Grasso
Dish Technologies
(c) 303-204-2974
(h) 303-317-5530
(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com
(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com



From: micha...@acbcert.com 
mailto:micha...@acbcert.com>>
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 10:37 AM
To: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com>>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.


 This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: 
micha...@acbcert.com
Hi Charles,

Any idea which country you’re thinking about?   USA?   Canada?   EU?   Japan?

In all the cases I can think of, I agree that  “err, what?  No!”  is the 
correct answer.


Michael.


From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com>>
Sent: 29 June 2020 17:28
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.

Hello EMC standards gurus!!!

I am being told  that the use of uncertified radios (think WIFi)  in the field 
is permitted
as long as there are no commercial transactions involved.

This makes no sense to me. Am I wrong?

[Working From Home]
Charles Grasso
Dish Technologies
(c) 303-204-2974
(h) 303-317-5530
(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com
(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

-


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http://product-compli

Re: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.

[Bill Stumpf]

Charles,
For your answer please refer to FCC 47 CRF Part 2 (see section I): 
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp=&SID=7062fb7892b0ce0fd3b2af0524fc6308&mc=true&n=pt47.1.2&r=PART&ty=HTML


Bill Stumpf – Lab/Technical manager
D.L.S. Electronic Systems, Inc.
Genoa City, WI 53128 (USA)



From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 12:14 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.

Hello all,

Thanks for the followup questions! You all of course realize I am asking for a 
friend 😊

I am referring to the WiFi radios in the US market. So for example if company A 
designs a piece
of test gear with WiFi radios (this question could also apply to 
RF4CE/Bluetooth etc) can
that piece of test gear be used outside of company A’s premises without 
certified radios?


[Working From Home]
Charles Grasso
Dish Technologies
(c) 303-204-2974
(h) 303-317-5530
(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com
(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com



From: micha...@acbcert.com 
mailto:micha...@acbcert.com>>
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 10:37 AM
To: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com>>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.


 This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: 
micha...@acbcert.com
Hi Charles,

Any idea which country you’re thinking about?   USA?   Canada?   EU?   Japan?

In all the cases I can think of, I agree that  “err, what?  No!”  is the 
correct answer.


Michael.


From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com>>
Sent: 29 June 2020 17:28
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.

Hello EMC standards gurus!!!

I am being told  that the use of uncertified radios (think WIFi)  in the field 
is permitted
as long as there are no commercial transactions involved.

This makes no sense to me. Am I wrong?

[Working From Home]
Charles Grasso
Dish Technologies
(c) 303-204-2974
(h) 303-317-5530
(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com
(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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-


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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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Re: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.

[Grasso, Charles [Outlook]]

Hello all,

Thanks for the followup questions! You all of course realize I am asking for a 
friend 😊

I am referring to the WiFi radios in the US market. So for example if company A 
designs a piece
of test gear with WiFi radios (this question could also apply to 
RF4CE/Bluetooth etc) can
that piece of test gear be used outside of company A’s premises without 
certified radios?


[Working From Home]
Charles Grasso
Dish Technologies
(c) 303-204-2974
(h) 303-317-5530
(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com
(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com



From: micha...@acbcert.com 
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 10:37 AM
To: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] ; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.


 This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: 
micha...@acbcert.com
Hi Charles,

Any idea which country you’re thinking about?   USA?   Canada?   EU?   Japan?

In all the cases I can think of, I agree that  “err, what?  No!”  is the 
correct answer.


Michael.


From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com>>
Sent: 29 June 2020 17:28
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.

Hello EMC standards gurus!!!

I am being told  that the use of uncertified radios (think WIFi)  in the field 
is permitted
as long as there are no commercial transactions involved.

This makes no sense to me. Am I wrong?

[Working From Home]
Charles Grasso
Dish Technologies
(c) 303-204-2974
(h) 303-317-5530
(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com
(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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Re: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.

[Dennis Ward]

Not knowing what area of the world you are speaking about, I can only say that 
for the US, NO wifi device can be sold or used without being certified.  It 
does not matter in what field it is being used, it is a part 15 intentional 
radiator and requires certification.  If the people who are telling you 
otherwise, do not listen to them as they are wrong.
Thanks

[cid:image002.png@01D64DFC.02BA27E0]
Dennis Ward
Senior Reviewing Engineer
PCTEST Engineering Laboratory, LLC.
7185 Oakland Mills Road
Columbia, MD  21045
1 410 290 6652)

dennis.w...@pctest.com | 
www.pctest.com | 
www.element.com

This communication and any attachment contain information from PCTEST 
Engineering Laboratory, LLC. and is intended for the exclusive use of the 
recipient(s) named above.

From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] 
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 9:28 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.


CAUTION:This email originated from outside of Element Materials Technology. DO 
NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know 
the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if you are in any doubt 
about this email.
Hello EMC standards gurus!!!

I am being told  that the use of uncertified radios (think WIFi)  in the field 
is permitted
as long as there are no commercial transactions involved.

This makes no sense to me. Am I wrong?

[Working From Home]
Charles Grasso
Dish Technologies
(c) 303-204-2974
(h) 303-317-5530
(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com
(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

-


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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Re: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.

[IBM Ken]

Hi Charles!
For a US audience at least, this sounds like a conflation of two disparate
concepts:

1) Radios offered for commercial sale generally require type acceptance but
Amateur radio operators can use equipment which is not type-accepted (ie
homebrewed)
2) There are certain services which are only authorized for noncommercial
use (Citizens Band for example)

Maybe what the speaker meant was; in the context of some coworkers who use
business band radios out in the field, they can also talk to each other
over FRS, as long as they keep those conversations personal in nature (not
related to their work).  In that sense the speaker is correct (they just
used the wrong terminology)- you can use CB/FRS radios to talk
'non-business' topics, even with your co-workers. You can't generally use
non-type accepted radios though, unless you happen to be an amateur who
homebrewed one and are using it within the rest of the Part 97
requirements...

-Ken A.

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 12:27 PM Grasso, Charles [Outlook] <
charles.gra...@dish.com> wrote:

> Hello EMC standards gurus!!!
>
>
>
> I am being told  that the use of uncertified radios (think WIFi)  in the
> field is permitted
> as long as there are no commercial transactions involved.
>
>
>
> This makes no sense to me. Am I wrong?
>
>
>
> [Working From Home]
>
> Charles Grasso
>
> Dish Technologies
>
> (c) 303-204-2974
>
> (h) 303-317-5530
>
> (e ) charles.gra...@dish.com
>
> (e2) chasgra...@gmail.com
>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
>

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Re: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.

[michaeld]

Hi Charles,

 

Any idea which country you're thinking about?   USA?   Canada?   EU?
Japan?

 

In all the cases I can think of, I agree that  "err, what?  No!"  is the
correct answer.

 

 

Michael.

 

 

From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook]  
Sent: 29 June 2020 17:28
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.

 

Hello EMC standards gurus!!!

 

I am being told  that the use of uncertified radios (think WIFi)  in the
field is permitted 
as long as there are no commercial transactions involved.

 

This makes no sense to me. Am I wrong?

 

[Working From Home]

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

(c) 303-204-2974

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com  

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com  

 

-


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mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

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[PSES] Question regarding use of un certified radios.

[Grasso, Charles [Outlook]]

Hello EMC standards gurus!!!

I am being told  that the use of uncertified radios (think WIFi)  in the field 
is permitted
as long as there are no commercial transactions involved.

This makes no sense to me. Am I wrong?

[Working From Home]
Charles Grasso
Dish Technologies
(c) 303-204-2974
(h) 303-317-5530
(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com
(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com


-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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Re: [PSES] Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse

[Grasso, Charles [Outlook]]

Hi – This IS an interesting problem!

My question: Is the 3 –phase configures as a delta or a wye configuration?
Also – What is the AC device (power supply/motors etc..)


[Working From Home]
Charles Grasso
Crackpot Theorist
Dish Technologies
(c) 303-204-2974
(h) 303-317-5530
(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com
(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com


From: Patrick 
Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 9:50 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse


 This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: 
owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org
Hi Amund

This sounds like a very interesting problem.  Likely many people will have 
advice.  Maybe get lucky and someone will have had this exact same problem.

I'd like to help if I can.  Do you have more information on the failure?  What 
test standard and test method did you use?  How much over the limit?  What 
filters were used and how were they connected?

It could be an installation of good filters, but not wired for the emission 
type.  Also could be wrong filter type for problem?

Very interesting.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 2:58 AM Amund Westin 
mailto:am...@westin-emission.no>> wrote:
A 3-phase product has three internal AC driven devices.
The product fails on Conducted emission. When connecting AC filters to
each internal AC driven devices, the emission gets even worse.

Any clue about this phenomena? Is it some kind of impedance mismatch
which derate the filters performance?

BR
Amund

-

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Re: [PSES] Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse

[Wiseman, Joshua]

I dealt with three phase a little bit at a previous employer. A couple items 
that become important is whether it's a balanced load on all three lines and if 
you're using a neutral conductor or not. We had options for with and without 
neutral.

Typically, we power the controls and single phase motors off of L1 and N or L1 
and L2 depending if we have a neutral. This often-caused higher currents on L1 
and if there was a neutral you could see higher leakage currents on it.

Often our loads on L2 and L3 were three phase motors so filtering was not 
always needed, so we would use a filter on L1-N or L1-L2 for the controls. In 
rare cases where electronics/controls were used on other lines there would be a 
filter on those as well.

For products with resistive heating elements we did our best to balance the 
load on each line.

This never seemed to be a problem for us.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman 
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics



-Original Message-
From: Cortland Richmond  
Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 1:50 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action



It's three phase -- and you'll need a three-phase filter sharing one return 
winding rather than three single phase filters.

IMHO.


Cortland Richmond


-Original Message-
>From: Amund Westin 
>Sent: Jun 28, 2020 4:58 AM
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Subject: [PSES] Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse
>
>A 3-phase product has three internal AC driven devices.
>The product fails on Conducted emission. When connecting AC filters to 
>each internal AC driven devices, the emission gets even worse.
>
>Any clue about this phenomena? Is it some kind of impedance mismatch 
>which derate the filters performance?
>
>BR
>Amund
>
>-
>
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