Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Brian,

It is called out in the IEC 60335 standards. I don’t recall if it is in -1 or 
the -2s.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

[cid:image001.png@01D69806.2DDD1E60]

From: Brian Kunde 
Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2020 11:30 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


When do you know if a product needs to be tested to these standards or not?  
What requires this testing?  Is there a criteria that can be used?  Does the 
SCOPE of these standards make it clear if and when the standards need to be 
applied to a product?   We have had customers request it but most electronic 
equipment doesn't put out enough magnetic or electromagnetic fields to even 
make it onto the graph?  Seems like a waste of time for most electronics unless 
they incorporate high current or high power RF transmitters.

Brian

On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 2:18 AM Charlie Blackham 
mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com>> wrote:
Scott

There no “solid guidance”

EN 50663:2017 is a much more recent standard and makes reference to both EN 
62311:2008 and EN 62479:2010 for assessment, but does not allow use of EN 62479 
table B.1 for using higher transmit powers for values of Pmax

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: 
https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: Scott Xe mailto:scott...@gmail.com>>
Sent: 30 September 2020 14:53
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

I notice EN 62311 is commonly used for electrical appliances.  For AV/ITE 
products, there are 3 standards: EN 50633, EN 62311 and EN 62479 to be used.  
Is there any solid guidance to select the correct standard for the product 
category?

Thanks and regards,

Scott
-


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Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

[Charlie Blackham]

Brian

It’s required by Annex I of the LVD:



2. Protection against hazards arising from the electrical equipment

Measures of a technical nature shall be laid down in accordance with point 1, 
in order to ensure that:
(b) temperatures, arcs or radiation which would cause a danger, are not 
produced;

And clarified by § 55 of the LVD Guide

Under CE marking, the Directive gives the requirement, a Harmonised Standard 
just provides one way of demonstrating compliance with that requirement

CENELEC TC106X is the relevant standards committee, and there are LVD 
Harmonised standards for non-radio equipment such as EN 62233:2008 for 
Household Appliances and EN 62493:2010 for lighting equipment

Also, it should be remembered that ISM equipment such as Welding Equipment can 
generate very high levels of RF energy

That said, a quick back of an envelope calculation:

The EMC class B limit below 1 GHz averages at around 45 dBuV/m at 3m, which 
equates to a transmitter at approximately -50 dBm or 10 pW.

To keep the maths simple and using a RBW of 100 kHz for the emissions 
measurement: a power density of 10 pW/100kHz is 0.1 mW/GHz, so a device that 
emitted “unintentional” EMC at the Class B limit continuously from 30 MHz to 1 
GHz, would only be radiating approx 0.1 mW against a safe limit of 20 mW/10g of 
tissue (2W/kg)

So, you do need to consider EMF for any product under the LVD, but you might 
decide that EMC compliance was one way of showing that your product did not 
generate dangerous amounts of electromagnetic field

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: Brian Kunde 
Sent: 01 October 2020 16:30
To: Charlie Blackham 
Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

When do you know if a product needs to be tested to these standards or not?  
What requires this testing?  Is there a criteria that can be used?  Does the 
SCOPE of these standards make it clear if and when the standards need to be 
applied to a product?   We have had customers request it but most electronic 
equipment doesn't put out enough magnetic or electromagnetic fields to even 
make it onto the graph?  Seems like a waste of time for most electronics unless 
they incorporate high current or high power RF transmitters.

Brian

On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 2:18 AM Charlie Blackham 
mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com>> wrote:
Scott

There no “solid guidance”

EN 50663:2017 is a much more recent standard and makes reference to both EN 
62311:2008 and EN 62479:2010 for assessment, but does not allow use of EN 62479 
table B.1 for using higher transmit powers for values of Pmax

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: Scott Xe mailto:scott...@gmail.com>>
Sent: 30 September 2020 14:53
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

I notice EN 62311 is commonly used for electrical appliances.  For AV/ITE 
products, there are 3 standards: EN 50633, EN 62311 and EN 62479 to be used.  
Is there any solid guidance to select the correct standard for the product 
category?

Thanks and regards,

Scott
-


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Re: [PSES] Low Voltage Products and EN 62368-1 and -3

[Charlie Blackham]

Bernd

>So you may either create your own exhaustive risk analysis for your products, 
>or claim compliance with the applicable product safety standard EN 62368-1, to 
>demonstrate that your complete product does not present a risk and complies 
>with the safety objectives of the LVD

A Risk assessment is required whether or not a Harmonised Standard is used
Just because a Standard is Harmonised, it does not mean that it will always 
cover the risks of a product that you have chosen to assess against it.
This is explained in more detail in § 61 of the LVD Guide, 
https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/31221 :

The technical documentation shall include an adequate analysis and assessment 
of the risk(s). In this respect, the Blue Guide presupposes a good evaluation 
of the risks of the product and a match between the risks analyses and risks 
covered by the standards. But the fact that harmonised standards are chosen to 
address the product risks, does not mean that a previous risk assessment of the 
product is not necessary.

A HS may well cover all this risks presented by a product, but it cannot be 
assumed – in part because standards always lag the development of new 
technologies and new applications.

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: Dürrer Bernd 
Sent: 30 September 2020 08:35
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] AW: [PSES] Low Voltage Products and EN 62368-1 and -3

Hi Scott,

please note that Annex III of the EU LVD requires a risk analysis as part of 
the technical documentation 
(https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32014L0035=EN#d1e32-370-1).
 So you may either create your own exhaustive risk analysis for your products, 
or claim compliance with the applicable product safety standard EN 62368-1, to 
demonstrate that your complete product does not present a risk and complies 
with the safety objectives of the LVD. If your products include a wireless 
interface or other radio function, it is in the scope of the RED which does not 
have a minimum voltage limit in Article 3, 1(a) 
(https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32014L0053=EN#d1e975-62-1).
 Therefore, for equipment powered by extra-low voltage the RED requires 
compliance with the safety objectives of the LVD and the applicable product 
safety standards.

Kind regards,

Bernd

Von: Scott Douglas mailto:sdouglas...@gmail.com>>
Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. September 2020 22:52
An: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Betreff: [PSES] Low Voltage Products and EN 62368-1 and -3

Esteemed colleagues,

Question on EN 62368-1 and -3 related to low voltage products.

Products are ITE equipment with power requirement of 5v or 12v DC and less than 
4 amps, sometimes they are powered by PoE. We ship some of these products with 
an external power supply 120/230 V~ input and 5 or 12 VDC output. The EPS 
always have full certifications to normal safety standards including 62368-1. 
Other times we do not include an EPS with the product.

One of our factories is trying to tell us that under IEC/EN 62368-1 or -3, our 
products are required to have safety certifications, that having just the EPS 
certified to 62368-1 is not enough.

We have always said that since these are low voltage products (even the PoE 
ones) that safety certifications are not required for the products themselves.

Has something changed where these type products are now required to have safety 
approvals for the EU or US/Canada markets? Or since they are not directly 
connected to the AC Mains, they do not need safety approvals?

Looking for someone to either confirm my sanity or teach me a new lesson. All 
comments welcome.

Scott

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Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

[lauren . crane]

Hi Rich,

This may fall into ‘anecdotal’ but I recall CRT televisions could store charge. 
I can’t recall if this was in an intentional capacitor, or capacitance inherent 
in the tube, etc.

As a very practical, first hand experience matter, I used to work on small ion 
implanters (essentially linear accelerators) that had a terminal elevated to 
several hundred thousand volts DC relative to ground. The votage –elevated 
section stored charge from the operation (i.e., accidental capacitor), and we 
had to be careful to discharge it before servicing. The cables that ran from an 
AC isolation transformer to the elevated voltage terminal were particularly 
tricky as they had to be covered with a semiconducting insulation. Those cables 
had to be touched along the whole length with a grounding stick to discharge.

I would say any device that has voltages above about 3000 kVDC could store 
charge.

Best Regards,
-Lauren

From: Richard Nute 
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 5:04 PM
To: TEH EHS Crane, Lauren 
Cc: emc-pstc@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge



Hi Lauren:

Thanks, but I recognize that many standards include such requirements.  I am 
looking for instances (other than the pins of a power plug) where such 
requirements must be invoked.

Stay safe!
Rich


From: lauren.cr...@us.tel.com 
mailto:lauren.cr...@us.tel.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 2:52 PM
To: ri...@ieee.org
Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

Hi Rich,

Discharge requirements are already in some electrical safety standards. Not at 
my desk so recall is poor, but likely 61010 or even NFPA 79 have something 
about caps with stored energy above x joules have to discharge within N seconds 
of power off...

Cheers,
-Lauren
Sent from my mobile phone - please excuse typos, brevity, etc.

On Sep 29, 2020, at 4:27 PM, Richard Nute 
mailto:ri...@ieee.org>> wrote:


I am interested in knowing what constructions, situations, and products where a 
capacitive discharge into a body could take place.

I am aware of the X and Y capacitors discharge at the prongs of a power plug.  
I don’t immediately know of other situations or products that might discharge a 
capacitor into a body.

I would appreciate descriptions of such discharges into a body, not conjecture. 
 Preferably, normal conditions and some single-fault conditions.

Do we need to include capacitive discharge requirements in the safety standards?

Stay safe!

Rich


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[PSES] Test requirement for Grille Cloth in UL/IEC/EN 62368-1.

[Chuck August-McDowell]

Greetings,

Would any list member have a comment on a test requirement for Grille Cloth in 
UL/IEC/EN 62368-1 ?
My word search finds no mention of "Grille Cloth"

In the past UL 60065 wanted a tablet test performed on cloth.
"Grille covering material, cloth, and reticulated foam"

The part is to be supported so that its thinnest outside solid surface is in a 
horizontal position. A tablet comprised of
hexamethylene-tetramine (C6H12N4) having a burning time of at least 100 s, is 
to be placed on the thinnest section of the part.
The tablet is then to be ignited with a match applied to the top of the tablet. 
The tablet is to be permitted to burn until it is
completely consumed or until it burns through the part and falls to the surface 
below. The test is concluded when the part
ceases to flame or glow. When all burning and glowing ceases, the part shall 
not have burned further than 5 cm from the center
of the tablet.

Thank you in advance for reply's.

Chuck


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Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

[Brian Kunde]

When do you know if a product needs to be tested to these standards or
not?  What requires this testing?  Is there a criteria that can be used?
Does the SCOPE of these standards make it clear if and when the standards
need to be applied to a product?   We have had customers request it
but most electronic equipment doesn't put out enough magnetic or
electromagnetic fields to even make it onto the graph?  Seems like a waste
of time for most electronics unless they incorporate high current or high
power RF transmitters.

Brian

On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 2:18 AM Charlie Blackham <
char...@sulisconsultants.com> wrote:

> Scott
>
>
>
> There no “solid guidance”
>
>
>
> EN 50663:2017 is a much more recent standard and makes reference to both
> EN 62311:2008 and EN 62479:2010 for assessment, but does not allow use of
> EN 62479 table B.1 for using higher transmit powers for values of Pmax
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
> *Charlie Blackham*
>
> *Sulis Consultants Ltd*
>
> *Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317*
>
> *Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/  *
>
> Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247
>
>
>
> *From:* Scott Xe 
> *Sent:* 30 September 2020 14:53
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [PSES] EMF harmonised standards
>
>
>
> I notice EN 62311 is commonly used for electrical appliances.  For AV/ITE
> products, there are 3 standards: EN 50633, EN 62311 and EN 62479 to be
> used.  Is there any solid guidance to select the correct standard for the
> product category?
>
>
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
>
>
> Scott
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
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>
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> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
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> emc-p...@ieee.org
>
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>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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>
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>

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Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

[Charlie Blackham]

Scott

There no “solid guidance”

EN 50663:2017 is a much more recent standard and makes reference to both EN 
62311:2008 and EN 62479:2010 for assessment, but does not allow use of EN 62479 
table B.1 for using higher transmit powers for values of Pmax

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: Scott Xe 
Sent: 30 September 2020 14:53
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

I notice EN 62311 is commonly used for electrical appliances.  For AV/ITE 
products, there are 3 standards: EN 50633, EN 62311 and EN 62479 to be used.  
Is there any solid guidance to select the correct standard for the product 
category?

Thanks and regards,

Scott
-


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