Re: [PSES] ELP devices in Japan

[T.Sato]

On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 21:34:17 +,
  MARIO DE ARANZETA  wrote:

> I've read information on several websites about extremely low power devices 
> for Japan.  The fundamental limit being 500uV/m@3m for frequencies below 322 
> MHz.  Does anyone know if this is a Q-P or Average.Also what is the limit for 
> harmonics?

It is slightly complex.

For example in 30 MHz to 1 GHz range, measure the emission with QP, PK with RBW 
= 100 kHz,
and PK with RBW = 1 MHz, and

  o PK(1MHz) - PK(100kHz) <= 3 dB --- use QP value
  o 3 dB < PK(1MHz) - PK(100kHz) <= 7 dB --- use PK(1 MHz) value
  o 7 dB < PK(1MHz) - PK(100kHz) --- use PK(1MHz) value + 5 dB
  
No special limit for harmonics, and same limit (500 uV/m for f < 322 MHz,
35 uV/m for 322 MHz <= f <= 10 MHz, ...) can apply.

Regards,
Tom

-- 
Tomonori Sato  
URL: http://t-sato.in.coocan.jp

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[PSES] ELP devices in Japan

[MARIO DE ARANZETA]

I've read information on several websites about extremely low power devices for 
Japan.  The fundamental limit being 500uV/m@3m for frequencies below 322 MHz.  
Does anyone know if this is a Q-P or Average.Also what is the limit for 
harmonics?
Thanks to all in advance,Mario de Aranzeta

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Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

[Richard Nute]

 

 

Hi Brian:

 

Be careful that the customers’ requests are not just asking by rote.

 

Way back when, we had customers asking about UV emissions from a crt.  Most 
glass is a good attenuator of UV, but the asking (non-technical) customers were 
asking because someone in their company asked them to ask.  These customers 
were satisfied with a non-technical answer that said that no UV came through 
the glass rather than a measure of the UV.  

 

Perhaps your customers are of this sort?  Perhaps a simple answer as you said 
in your message will satisfy your customers.  If not, they will come back to 
you with a request for data.  

 

Good luck, and stay safe!

Rich

 

 

From: Brian Kunde  
Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2020 8:30 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

 

When do you know if a product needs to be tested to these standards or not?  
What requires this testing?  Is there a criteria that can be used?  Does the 
SCOPE of these standards make it clear if and when the standards need to be 
applied to a product?   We have had customers request it but most electronic 
equipment doesn't put out enough magnetic or electromagnetic fields to even 
make it onto the graph?  Seems like a waste of time for most electronics unless 
they incorporate high current or high power RF transmitters.  

 

Brian

 


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Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Thanks for the correction. Haven’t used the standard in a few years.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

[cid:image001.png@01D698BC.81B0A780]

From: Dan Roman <0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Friday, October 2, 2020 10:58 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


EN 62233 is called out in the EN version of 60335-1, but not in the IEC 
version.  So it is an EU deviation only I believe.

Dan

From: Wiseman, Joshua [mailto:joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2020 3:19 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

Brian,

It is called out in the IEC 60335 standards. I don’t recall if it is in -1 or 
the -2s.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

[cid:image001.png@01D698BC.81B0A780]

From: Brian Kunde mailto:bkundew...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2020 11:30 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


When do you know if a product needs to be tested to these standards or not?  
What requires this testing?  Is there a criteria that can be used?  Does the 
SCOPE of these standards make it clear if and when the standards need to be 
applied to a product?   We have had customers request it but most electronic 
equipment doesn't put out enough magnetic or electromagnetic fields to even 
make it onto the graph?  Seems like a waste of time for most electronics unless 
they incorporate high current or high power RF transmitters.

Brian

On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 2:18 AM Charlie Blackham 
mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com>> wrote:
Scott

There no “solid guidance”

EN 50663:2017 is a much more recent standard and makes reference to both EN 
62311:2008 and EN 62479:2010 for assessment, but does not allow use of EN 62479 
table B.1 for using higher transmit powers for values of Pmax

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: 
https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: Scott Xe mailto:scott...@gmail.com>>
Sent: 30 September 2020 14:53
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

I notice EN 62311 is commonly used for electrical appliances.  For AV/ITE 
products, there are 3 standards: EN 50633, EN 62311 and EN 62479 to be used.  
Is there any solid guidance to select the correct standard for the product 
category?

Thanks and regards,

Scott
-


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

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 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

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Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 

Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

[Ken Shadoff]

I believe that Clause 4.1 of EN 62479:2010 specifically states route A can be 
considers as inherently compliant for ITE that do not contain radio 
transmitters.

From Ken Shadoff

> On Oct 2, 2020, at 9:56 AM, Dan Roman 
> <0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> So a Class B emissions report, provided the product is not an intentional 
> radiator I guess, would be enough for due diligence to show compliance.  Put 
> a note to that effect referencing the Class B report and it appears to me you 
> should be good to go.
>  
> Dan
>  
> From: Charlie Blackham [mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2020 3:00 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards
>  
> Brian
>  
> It’s required by Annex I of the LVD:
>  
> 2. Protection against hazards arising from the electrical equipment
> Measures of a technical nature shall be laid down in accordance with point 1, 
> in order to ensure that:
> (b) temperatures, arcs or radiation which would cause a danger, are not 
> produced;
>  
> And clarified by § 55 of the LVD Guide
>  
> Under CE marking, the Directive gives the requirement, a Harmonised Standard 
> just provides one way of demonstrating compliance with that requirement
>  
> CENELEC TC106X is the relevant standards committee, and there are LVD 
> Harmonised standards for non-radio equipment such as EN 62233:2008 for 
> Household Appliances and EN 62493:2010 for lighting equipment
>  
> Also, it should be remembered that ISM equipment such as Welding Equipment 
> can generate very high levels of RF energy
>  
> That said, a quick back of an envelope calculation:
>  
> The EMC class B limit below 1 GHz averages at around 45 dBuV/m at 3m, which 
> equates to a transmitter at approximately -50 dBm or 10 pW.
>  
> To keep the maths simple and using a RBW of 100 kHz for the emissions 
> measurement: a power density of 10 pW/100kHz is 0.1 mW/GHz, so a device that 
> emitted “unintentional” EMC at the Class B limit continuously from 30 MHz to 
> 1 GHz, would only be radiating approx 0.1 mW against a safe limit of 20 
> mW/10g of tissue (2W/kg)
>  
> So, you do need to consider EMF for any product under the LVD, but you might 
> decide that EMC compliance was one way of showing that your product did not 
> generate dangerous amounts of electromagnetic field
>  
> Best regards
> Charlie
>  
> Charlie Blackham
> Sulis Consultants Ltd
> Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
> Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/
> Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247
>  
> From: Brian Kunde  
> Sent: 01 October 2020 16:30
> To: Charlie Blackham 
> Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
> Subject: Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards
>  
> When do you know if a product needs to be tested to these standards or not?  
> What requires this testing?  Is there a criteria that can be used?  Does the 
> SCOPE of these standards make it clear if and when the standards need to be 
> applied to a product?   We have had customers request it but most electronic 
> equipment doesn't put out enough magnetic or electromagnetic fields to even 
> make it onto the graph?  Seems like a waste of time for most electronics 
> unless they incorporate high current or high power RF transmitters.  
>  
> Brian
>  
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 2:18 AM Charlie Blackham 
>  wrote:
> Scott
>  
> There no “solid guidance”
>  
> EN 50663:2017 is a much more recent standard and makes reference to both EN 
> 62311:2008 and EN 62479:2010 for assessment, but does not allow use of EN 
> 62479 table B.1 for using higher transmit powers for values of Pmax
>  
> Best regards
> Charlie
>  
> Charlie Blackham
> Sulis Consultants Ltd
> Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
> Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/
> Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247
>  
> From: Scott Xe  
> Sent: 30 September 2020 14:53
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards
>  
> I notice EN 62311 is commonly used for electrical appliances.  For AV/ITE 
> products, there are 3 standards: EN 50633, EN 62311 and EN 62479 to be used.  
> Is there any solid guidance to select the correct standard for the product 
> category?
>  
> Thanks and regards,
>  
> Scott
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
> unsubscribe)
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> 

Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

[Dan Roman]

EN 62233 is called out in the EN version of 60335-1, but not in the IEC 
version.  So it is an EU deviation only I believe.

 

Dan

 

From: Wiseman, Joshua [mailto:joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com] 
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2020 3:19 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

 

Brian,

 

It is called out in the IEC 60335 standards. I don’t recall if it is in -1 or 
the -2s.

 

Josh

 

Joshua Wiseman 

Systems Engineering

Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC

Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

 



 

From: Brian Kunde mailto:bkundew...@gmail.com> > 
Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2020 11:30 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

 

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action

 

When do you know if a product needs to be tested to these standards or not?  
What requires this testing?  Is there a criteria that can be used?  Does the 
SCOPE of these standards make it clear if and when the standards need to be 
applied to a product?   We have had customers request it but most electronic 
equipment doesn't put out enough magnetic or electromagnetic fields to even 
make it onto the graph?  Seems like a waste of time for most electronics unless 
they incorporate high current or high power RF transmitters.   

 

Brian

 

On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 2:18 AM Charlie Blackham  
wrote:

Scott

 

There no “solid guidance”

 

EN 50663:2017 is a much more recent standard and makes reference to both EN 
62311:2008 and EN 62479:2010 for assessment, but does not allow use of EN 62479 
table B.1 for using higher transmit powers for values of Pmax

 

Best regards

Charlie

 

Charlie Blackham

Sulis Consultants Ltd

Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317

Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/ 

  

Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

 

From: Scott Xe mailto:scott...@gmail.com> > 
Sent: 30 September 2020 14:53
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

 

I notice EN 62311 is commonly used for electrical appliances.  For AV/ITE 
products, there are 3 standards: EN 50633, EN 62311 and EN 62479 to be used.  
Is there any solid guidance to select the correct standard for the product 
category?

 

Thanks and regards,

 

Scott

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html 

 

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 

  can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

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Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 

 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

  

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> >
Mike Cantwell 

Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

[Dan Roman]

So a Class B emissions report, provided the product is not an intentional 
radiator I guess, would be enough for due diligence to show compliance.  Put a 
note to that effect referencing the Class B report and it appears to me you 
should be good to go.

 

Dan

 

From: Charlie Blackham [mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com] 
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2020 3:00 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

 

Brian

 

It’s required by Annex I of the LVD:

 

2. Protection against hazards arising from the electrical equipment 

Measures of a technical nature shall be laid down in accordance with point 1, 
in order to ensure that: 

(b) temperatures, arcs or radiation which would cause a danger, are not 
produced;

 

And clarified by § 55 of the LVD Guide

 

Under CE marking, the Directive gives the requirement, a Harmonised Standard 
just provides one way of demonstrating compliance with that requirement

 

CENELEC TC106X is the relevant standards committee, and there are LVD 
Harmonised standards for non-radio equipment such as EN 62233:2008 for 
Household Appliances and EN 62493:2010 for lighting equipment

 

Also, it should be remembered that ISM equipment such as Welding Equipment can 
generate very high levels of RF energy

 

That said, a quick back of an envelope calculation:

 

The EMC class B limit below 1 GHz averages at around 45 dBuV/m at 3m, which 
equates to a transmitter at approximately -50 dBm or 10 pW.

 

To keep the maths simple and using a RBW of 100 kHz for the emissions 
measurement: a power density of 10 pW/100kHz is 0.1 mW/GHz, so a device that 
emitted “unintentional” EMC at the Class B limit continuously from 30 MHz to 1 
GHz, would only be radiating approx 0.1 mW against a safe limit of 20 mW/10g of 
tissue (2W/kg)

 

So, you do need to consider EMF for any product under the LVD, but you might 
decide that EMC compliance was one way of showing that your product did not 
generate dangerous amounts of electromagnetic field

 

Best regards

Charlie

 

Charlie Blackham

Sulis Consultants Ltd

Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317

Web:   https://sulisconsultants.com/ 

Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

 

From: Brian Kunde mailto:bkundew...@gmail.com> > 
Sent: 01 October 2020 16:30
To: Charlie Blackham mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com> >
Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org  
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

 

When do you know if a product needs to be tested to these standards or not?  
What requires this testing?  Is there a criteria that can be used?  Does the 
SCOPE of these standards make it clear if and when the standards need to be 
applied to a product?   We have had customers request it but most electronic 
equipment doesn't put out enough magnetic or electromagnetic fields to even 
make it onto the graph?  Seems like a waste of time for most electronics unless 
they incorporate high current or high power RF transmitters.  

 

Brian

 

On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 2:18 AM Charlie Blackham < 
 char...@sulisconsultants.com> wrote:

Scott

 

There no “solid guidance”

 

EN 50663:2017 is a much more recent standard and makes reference to both EN 
62311:2008 and EN 62479:2010 for assessment, but does not allow use of EN 62479 
table B.1 for using higher transmit powers for values of Pmax

 

Best regards

Charlie

 

Charlie Blackham

Sulis Consultants Ltd

Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317

Web:   https://sulisconsultants.com/ 

Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

 

From: Scott Xe mailto:scott...@gmail.com> > 
Sent: 30 September 2020 14:53
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

 

I notice EN 62311 is commonly used for electrical appliances.  For AV/ITE 
products, there are 3 standards: EN 50633, EN 62311 and EN 62479 to be used.  
Is there any solid guidance to select the correct standard for the product 
category?

 

Thanks and regards,

 

Scott

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < 
 emc-p...@ieee.org>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:  
 http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at  
 http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website:   http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:   
http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: