Re: [PSES] Climatic conditions for ESD testing

2021-07-29 Thread Ghery S. Pettit 
860 mbar is 25.3958 inches of Hg.  Atmospheric pressure (in the range we care 
about) falls at about 1 inch of Hg per 1000 feet.  Thus, if standard 
atmospheric pressure is 29.92 inches of Hg, this would equate to about 4525 
feet altitude.  That’s “feet”, not “meters”.  Even Denver would be too high for 
a lab to qualify to test ESD to IEC 61000-4-2.  

 

From: John Woodgate  
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2021 10:26 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Climatic conditions for ESD testing

 

That explains it: they want to be able to do the tests in La Paz. (;-)

==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk  
Rayleigh, Essex UK
Istae nunc praetereunt nisi non ubicumque




On 2021-07-29 17:49, Charlie Blackham wrote:

EN 61000-4-2 specifies a minimum air pressure of 860 mbar but, 

1.  920 mbar is the centre of a cat 5 hurricane at sea level
2.  860 mbar is about 4500m above sea level

 

Hardly the most rigorous set of criteria ever written into a standard 

 

Best regards

Charlie

 

Charlie Blackham

Sulis Consultants Ltd

Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317

Web:   https://sulisconsultants.com/ 

Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

 

 

 

  _  


  

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Re: [PSES] Climatic conditions for ESD testing

2021-07-29 Thread Pete Perkins 
John, Thanx for your response.  If true: 

 

   It's foolish at best and irresponsible in the worst case to
demand control when all the technical expertise lies within the IEC on this
subject, not the ISO.  

 

   Politics at its worst in action (we see such all the time,
unfortunately).  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, ORe  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer

  www.researchgate.net search
my name

  p.perk...@ieee.org

 

 

Entropy ain't what it used to be

 

From: John Woodgate  
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2021 10:22 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Climatic conditions for ESD testing

 

They did it because the motor industry wants to have all its standards in
ISO (obviously they have thousands of mechanical standards), not IEC, and
wants full control over them.


==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk  
Rayleigh, Essex UK
Istae nunc praetereunt nisi non ubicumque




On 2021-07-29 17:32, Pete Perkins wrote:

Specifically for this case; why did the committee write another standard
that seems to cover the same ground as a base standard IEC 61000-4-2?  Wot's
the rationale for this additional standard?  

 

  _  


  

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Re: [PSES] Climatic conditions for ESD testing

2021-07-29 Thread Pete Perkins 
Charlie, et al,  If the requirements are tied to the physics then they 
should be reasonable.  

A couple of papers popped up in a google search.  Here’s one.  

 

Content from this work may be used under the terms of the Creative Commons 
Attribution 3.0 licence. Any further distribution
of this work must maintain attribution to the author(s) and the title of the 
work, journal citation and DOI.
Published under licence by IOP Publishing LtdElectrostatics 2019 and 
Dielectrics 2019
IOP Conf. Series: Journal of Physics: Conf. Series 1322 (2019) 012010
IOP Publishing
doi:10.1088/1742-6596/1322/1/012010
1
A kinetic model for the electrostatic spark discharge
in atmospheric-pressure air
A Ohsawa
Electrical Safety Research Group, National Institute of Occupational Safety and 
Health,
Japan (JNIOSH), 1-4-6 Umezono, Kiyose, Tokyo 204-0024, Japan
E-mail: ohs...@s.jniosh.johas.go.jp
Abstract. This paper presents a 0-D kinetic model of electrostatic spark 
discharges consisting
of the time-dependent Boltzmann equation of electrons, a discharge-circuit 
equation, and heavy
particles’ kinetic equations to investigate the energy-transfer mechanisms from 
the electrostatic
energy given to the energy of gases by the spark discharge. In this report, the 
model is applied
to the discharges in atmospheric-pressure air under optimum conditions 
corresponding for the
minimum ignition energies of the typical flammable gases, hydrogen, ethylene 
and propane, in
three types of explosion groups for gases.

 

   Altho the article focuses on flammable gases it discusses it 
relative to air which is the basis for ESD arcs of interest in other 
situations.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, ORe  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer

  www.researchgate.net search my 
name

  p.perk...@ieee.org

 

 

Entropy ain’t what it used to be

 

From: Charlie Blackham  
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2021 9:50 AM
To: Pete Perkins ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Climatic conditions for ESD testing

 

EN 61000-4-2 specifies a minimum air pressure of 860 mbar but, 

*   920 mbar is the centre of a cat 5 hurricane at sea level
*   860 mbar is about 4500m above sea level

 

Hardly the most rigorous set of criteria ever written into a standard 

 

Best regards

Charlie

 

Charlie Blackham

Sulis Consultants Ltd

Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317

Web:   https://sulisconsultants.com/ 

Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

 

From: Pete Perkins <0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org 
 > 
Sent: 29 July 2021 17:32
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: Re: [PSES] Climatic conditions for ESD testing

 

John, You need to address your question to the committee that is 
responsible for the standard you are questioning.  

 

   Remember that the standards writing business is a BOGSAT process 
(Bunch Of Guys Sitting Around a Table).  Most of the participants are there 
because they know something about the subject (subject expert matter delegates) 
or they have some issue that they either want addressed or want to have it 
excluded from the standard (latter is usually not disclosed until deep into the 
discussion).  If the leader can come up with a comprehensive outline as to the 
subjects to be addressed then the process will be more comprehensive; if not it 
will be less organized.  

   Specifically for this case; why did the committee write another 
standard that seems to cover the same ground as a base standard IEC 61000-4-2?  
Wot’s the rationale for this additional standard?  

 

   Standards writing is not a scientific endeavor (even tho it uses 
scientific principles, such as you pointed out); It’s like sausage making – but 
don’t go into the kitchen if you aren’t ready to be involved in making the 
sausage…

   If you have strong feelings about the completeness of the 
product level standard perhaps you should be on the committee and straighten it 
out.  Don’t just grumble, get involved.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, ORe  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer

www.researchgate.net   search my 
name

p.perk...@ieee.org  

 

 

Entropy ain’t what it used to be

 

From: John Flavin mailto:jfla...@vermeer.com> > 
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2021 5:39 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: [PSES] Climatic conditions for ESD testing

 

IEC 61000-4-2 specifies

Re: [PSES] Climatic conditions for ESD testing

2021-07-29 Thread John Woodgate 

That explains it: they want to be able to do the tests in La Paz. (;-)

==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
Istae nunc praetereunt nisi non ubicumque



On 2021-07-29 17:49, Charlie Blackham wrote:


EN 61000-4-2 specifies a minimum air pressure of 860 mbar but,

  * 920 mbar is the centre of a cat 5 hurricane at sea level
  * 860 mbar is about 4500m above sea level

Hardly the most rigorous set of criteria ever written into a standard 

Best regards

Charlie**

**

*Charlie Blackham*

*Sulis Consultants Ltd*

*Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317*

*Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/  *

Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247





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Re: [PSES] Climatic conditions for ESD testing

2021-07-29 Thread John Woodgate 
They did it because the motor industry wants to have all its standards 
in ISO (obviously they have thousands of mechanical standards), not IEC, 
and wants full control over them.


==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
Istae nunc praetereunt nisi non ubicumque



On 2021-07-29 17:32, Pete Perkins wrote:
Specifically for this case; why did the committee write another 
standard that seems to cover the same ground as a base standard IEC 
61000-4-2? Wot’s the rationale for this additional standard? 



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Re: [PSES] Climatic conditions for ESD testing

2021-07-29 Thread Charlie Blackham 
EN 61000-4-2 specifies a minimum air pressure of 860 mbar but,

  *   920 mbar is the centre of a cat 5 hurricane at sea level
  *   860 mbar is about 4500m above sea level

Hardly the most rigorous set of criteria ever written into a standard 

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: Pete Perkins <0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>
Sent: 29 July 2021 17:32
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Climatic conditions for ESD testing

John, You need to address your question to the committee that is 
responsible for the standard you are questioning.

   Remember that the standards writing business is a BOGSAT process 
(Bunch Of Guys Sitting Around a Table).  Most of the participants are there 
because they know something about the subject (subject expert matter delegates) 
or they have some issue that they either want addressed or want to have it 
excluded from the standard (latter is usually not disclosed until deep into the 
discussion).  If the leader can come up with a comprehensive outline as to the 
subjects to be addressed then the process will be more comprehensive; if not it 
will be less organized.
   Specifically for this case; why did the committee write another 
standard that seems to cover the same ground as a base standard IEC 61000-4-2?  
Wot’s the rationale for this additional standard?

   Standards writing is not a scientific endeavor (even tho it uses 
scientific principles, such as you pointed out); It’s like sausage making – but 
don’t go into the kitchen if you aren’t ready to be involved in making the 
sausage…
   If you have strong feelings about the completeness of the 
product level standard perhaps you should be on the committee and straighten it 
out.  Don’t just grumble, get involved.

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 1067
Albany, ORe  97321-0413

503/452-1201

IEEE Life Fellow
IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer
www.researchgate.net search my name
p.perk...@ieee.org


Entropy ain’t what it used to be

From: John Flavin mailto:jfla...@vermeer.com>>
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2021 5:39 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Climatic conditions for ESD testing

IEC 61000-4-2 specifies climatic conditions for air discharge, including 
barometric pressure. ISO 10605 (ESD for road vehicles) is silent about 
barometric pressure.
As I remember, air pressure influences the reproducibility of air discharges, 
which I assume is why IEC 61000-4-2 specifies limit on it. (ISO 10605:2008 even 
says this in Annex E.)

So, if it’s important, why is this not specified in ISO 10605?


[cid:image001.jpg@01D784A1.D2CB5120]
John Flavin
Senior EMC Engineer
1860 Vermeer Road East | Pella, IA USA 50219
O: 641-621-8958
jfla...@vermeer.com
vermeer.com


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Re: [PSES] Climatic conditions for ESD testing

2021-07-29 Thread Pete Perkins 
John, You need to address your question to the committee that is
responsible for the standard you are questioning.  

 

   Remember that the standards writing business is a BOGSAT
process (Bunch Of Guys Sitting Around a Table).  Most of the participants
are there because they know something about the subject (subject expert
matter delegates) or they have some issue that they either want addressed or
want to have it excluded from the standard (latter is usually not disclosed
until deep into the discussion).  If the leader can come up with a
comprehensive outline as to the subjects to be addressed then the process
will be more comprehensive; if not it will be less organized.  

   Specifically for this case; why did the committee write
another standard that seems to cover the same ground as a base standard IEC
61000-4-2?  Wot's the rationale for this additional standard?  

 

   Standards writing is not a scientific endeavor (even tho it
uses scientific principles, such as you pointed out); It's like sausage
making - but don't go into the kitchen if you aren't ready to be involved in
making the sausage.

   If you have strong feelings about the completeness of the
product level standard perhaps you should be on the committee and straighten
it out.  Don't just grumble, get involved.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, ORe  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer

  www.researchgate.net search
my name

  p.perk...@ieee.org

 

 

Entropy ain't what it used to be

 

From: John Flavin  
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2021 5:39 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Climatic conditions for ESD testing

 

IEC 61000-4-2 specifies climatic conditions for air discharge, including
barometric pressure. ISO 10605 (ESD for road vehicles) is silent about
barometric pressure.

As I remember, air pressure influences the reproducibility of air
discharges, which I assume is why IEC 61000-4-2 specifies limit on it. (ISO
10605:2008 even says this in Annex E.)

 

So, if it's important, why is this not specified in ISO 10605?

 

 




John Flavin

Senior EMC Engineer

1860 Vermeer Road East | Pella, IA USA 50219

O: 641-621-8958

jfla...@vermeer.com  

 
 vermeer.com

 

 

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[PSES] Climatic conditions for ESD testing

2021-07-29 Thread John Flavin 
IEC 61000-4-2 specifies climatic conditions for air discharge, including 
barometric pressure. ISO 10605 (ESD for road vehicles) is silent about 
barometric pressure.
As I remember, air pressure influences the reproducibility of air discharges, 
which I assume is why IEC 61000-4-2 specifies limit on it. (ISO 10605:2008 even 
says this in Annex E.)

So, if it's important, why is this not specified in ISO 10605?


[cid:image001.jpg@01D7844A.B7DFE8F0]
John Flavin
Senior EMC Engineer
1860 Vermeer Road East | Pella, IA USA 50219
O: 641-621-8958
jfla...@vermeer.com
vermeer.com



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Re: [PSES] [External] [PSES] Job opening for a Lead EMC Engineer at Honeywell Minneapolis

2021-07-29 Thread Jones, Richard 
Seems the link I added was an internal link, and didn't work making it hard to 
find.
Instead go to the careers site and just search for the following: 

Careers.honeywell.com

The job title is: "Lead Systems Engineer"

Location is: "Minneapolis"

Goodluck

Rich

-Original Message-
From: Jones, Richard <158e9dcd0d5e-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 5:40 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] [PSES] Job opening for a Lead EMC Engineer at Honeywell 
Minneapolis

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CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
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Hi Everyone

We're looking for a Lead EMC Engineer in Minneapolis, if interested please look 
at the job description at the link below

https://careers.honeywell.com/i/us/en/job/req294960/Lead-Systems-Engineer

Thanks

Rich

Richard Jones
Sr Engineering Manager Electronic Test
Honeywell| Aerospace| ES-ET
 Unity Drive
Mississauga, ON
Canada L5L 3S6

T: +1 (905) 608 6334
C: +1 (416) 729 8109

richard.a.jo...@honeywell.com

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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: