[PSES] NRTL Marks on Industrial Pump Assemblies

[Richard Georgerian]

Hi Brian,

 

If no one has yet suggested it, would it be possible to send the same type of 
motor to the customer site? Use the same wiring from the building to connect to 
the motor and perform the lock rotor test. If the motor passes, then the motor 
that is already connected would most likely pass. In this way, the customer’s 
motor would not be damaged or degraded.

 

Thank-you,

 

…Richard Georgerian

HID Global

Compliance Engineer

 

From: Brian Kunde  
Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2022 9:46 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NRTL Marks on Industrial Pump Assemblies

 

To all. Thanks for the many comments and advice. They were most helpful.

 

Our NRTL inspector is focusing on the AC Mains driving the motor as a potential 
hazardous circuit. They want the Pump Assembly, or just the motor, to have UL 
and CSA for sales in North America. Our NRTL inspector says that evaluating 
motors in the field (Field Evaluation) is difficult for it would require a 
locked rotor test which would be impossible to do in the field and be 
potentially destructive to the motor. So these markings on the motor are 
required. 

 

We are in the process of disassembling the pump to see if the motor has these 
markings, but it is being difficult to disassemble. Still working on it.  The 
Pump Manufacturers are being unresponsive or very slow to respond to our 
requests.  

 

With the current part shortage problems, we are having a difficult time finding 
a supplier that has a product to sell us. And amongst those, we are having this 
compliance issue.  R is frustrated, rightfully so, and is seeking help from 
our Compliance Engineering Department.  

 

Is there a test or tests that can be done in the field that would make this 
pump assembly acceptable to the AHJ? Ultimately, we will want a pump assembly 
with the Safety Marking clearly visible from the outside so there are no issues 
in the field with AHJs, but for now we will take whatever will get the product 
shipping.  

 

 Thanks.

The Other Brian

 

On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 9:53 AM mailto:lauren.cr...@lamresearch.com> > wrote:

Brian, 

 

I’m curious if your NRTL has made it clear for what topic the pump needs 
certification? There are many energy efficiency criteria being applied to 
industrial components of various kinds these days. I cannot bring them all to 
mind quickly, but water circulators are certainly a possibility, as well as 3 
phase induction motors. Energy efficiency compliance generally cannot be judged 
at the incorporated level. 

 

Best Regards, 

-Lauren

 

From: Brian Kunde mailto:bkundew...@gmail.com> > 
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2022 2:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: [PSES] NRTL Marks on Industrial Pump Assemblies

 


 

External Email: Do NOT reply, click on links, or open attachments unless you 
recognize the sender and know the content is safe. If you believe this email 
may be unsafe, please click on the “Report Phishing” button on the top right of 
Outlook.

 

I am confused and frustrated.  We have an industrial product that includes a 
small water recirculation tank which includes a motor/pump assembly that is 
powered by 230V/360V/460Vac 3-phase.  Our NRTL inspectors says this pump 
assembly must have UL, CSA, or equivalent. Here is a website that shows the 
type of assembly we are looking for: 

 

https://www.graymills.com/fm-series.html 

 

 

The trouble is, Graymills, Granger, Dayton, etc. doesn't provide NRTL markings 
on the pumps that meet our functional requirements.  They all say that most of 
their customers do not require these marks so they only offer a few models that 
do.  

 

How can this be? Am I missing something?  Some say that manufacturers can get 
the pumps approved as part of a certification of the entire machine, but how 
can the pump be evaluated by a system integrator who doesn't manufacture the 
pump, nor has any constructional information?  Wouldn't it HAVE to be done by 
the motor manufacturer?  

 

I keep asking our NRTL Field Inspector if he would accept such a product and 
the answer is no.  Our CSA inspector also says no; it must have CSA or 
equivalent on the motor and/or motor/pump assembly.  

 

Any suggestions?  

 

Thanks,

The Other Brian

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and 

Re: [PSES] NRTL Marks on Industrial Pump Assemblies

[Brian Kunde]

To all. Thanks for the many comments and advice. They were most helpful.

Our NRTL inspector is focusing on the AC Mains driving the motor as a
potential hazardous circuit. They want the Pump Assembly, or just the
motor, to have UL and CSA for sales in North America. Our NRTL inspector
says that evaluating motors in the field (Field Evaluation) is difficult
for it would require a locked rotor test which would be impossible to do in
the field and be potentially destructive to the motor. So these markings on
the motor are required.

We are in the process of disassembling the pump to see if the motor has
these markings, but it is being difficult to disassemble. Still working on
it.  The Pump Manufacturers are being unresponsive or very slow to respond
to our requests.

With the current part shortage problems, we are having a difficult time
finding a supplier that has a product to sell us. And amongst those, we are
having this compliance issue.  R is frustrated, rightfully so, and is
seeking help from our Compliance Engineering Department.

Is there a test or tests that can be done in the field that would make this
pump assembly acceptable to the AHJ? Ultimately, we will want a pump
assembly with the Safety Marking clearly visible from the outside so there
are no issues in the field with AHJs, but for now we will take whatever
will get the product shipping.

 Thanks.
The Other Brian

On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 9:53 AM  wrote:

> Brian,
>
>
>
> I’m curious if your NRTL has made it clear for what topic the pump needs
> certification? There are many energy efficiency criteria being applied to
> industrial components of various kinds these days. I cannot bring them all
> to mind quickly, but water circulators are certainly a possibility, as well
> as 3 phase induction motors. Energy efficiency compliance generally cannot
> be judged at the incorporated level.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> -Lauren
>
>
>
> *From:* Brian Kunde 
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 30, 2022 2:01 PM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [PSES] NRTL Marks on Industrial Pump Assemblies
>
>
>
>
>
> *External Email:* Do NOT reply, click on links, or open attachments
> *unless* you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. If you
> believe this email may be unsafe, please click on the “Report Phishing”
> button on the top right of Outlook.
>
>
>
> I am confused and frustrated.  We have an industrial product that includes
> a small water recirculation tank which includes a motor/pump assembly that
> is powered by 230V/360V/460Vac 3-phase.  Our NRTL inspectors says this pump
> assembly must have UL, CSA, or equivalent. Here is a website that shows the
> type of assembly we are looking for:
>
>
>
> https://www.graymills.com/fm-series.html
> 
>
>
>
> The trouble is, Graymills, Granger, Dayton, etc. doesn't provide NRTL
> markings on the pumps that meet our functional requirements.  They all say
> that most of their customers do not require these marks so they only offer
> a few models that do.
>
>
>
> How can this be? Am I missing something?  Some say that manufacturers can
> get the pumps approved as part of a certification of the entire machine,
> but how can the pump be evaluated by a system integrator who doesn't
> manufacture the pump, nor has any constructional information?  Wouldn't it
> HAVE to be done by the motor manufacturer?
>
>
>
> I keep asking our NRTL Field Inspector if he would accept such a product
> and the answer is no.  Our CSA inspector also says no; it must have CSA or
> equivalent on the motor and/or motor/pump assembly.
>
>
>
> Any suggestions?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> The Other Brian
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> 

Re: [PSES] Harmonics test requirement for Japan

[T.Sato]

On Thu, 7 Jul 2022 14:19:34 +,
  "Paasche, Dieter"  wrote:

> Is there a requirement to test harmonics in Japan to obtain VCCI on an ITE 
> equipment.
> There is a JIS C 61000-3-2 standard, but it is required by VCCI?

No, it it not required by VCCI.

Compliance with JIS C 61000-3-2 is strongly recommended by the
Ministry, and manufactures usually treat the standard as if it is
a mandatory requirement.

> If yes, I assume it is been tested to Japanese voltage.

Yes.

Regards,
Tom

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 
_
To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: 
https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1

[PSES] Harmonics test requirement for Japan

[Paasche, Dieter]

Hi,

Is there a requirement to test harmonics in Japan to obtain VCCI on an ITE 
equipment. There is a JIS C 61000-3-2 standard, but it is required by VCCI? If 
yes, I assume it is been tested to Japanese voltage.

Sincerely,


[img]

Dieter Paasche
Senior Product Developer
Electrical / EMC Compliance

dieter.paas...@christedigital.com
Work: (519) 744-8005 Ext. 7211
www.christiedigital.com
[cid:image002.png@01D891EB.0B65E980]

809 Wellington St. N.
Kitchener, Ontario
N2G 4Y7 Canada
[cid:image003.png@01D891EB.0B65E980] 
[cid:image004.png@01D891EB.0B65E980]   
[cid:image005.png@01D891EB.0B65E980] 
  
[cid:image006.png@01D891EB.0B65E980] 
  
[cid:image007.png@01D891EB.0B65E980] 



This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is confidential.  Any 
unauthorized use, distribution or disclosure is prohibited.  If you have 
received this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail 
or telephone and delete it and any attachments from your computer system and 
records.


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 
_
To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: 
https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1

Re: [PSES] NRTL Marks on Industrial Pump Assemblies

[John Allen]

Brian,

Your only real option is to test it.  Either you do it or the mfgr does.
If you do, how do you know if it’ll pass.  If it does pass you’ll be required 
to prove the critical components during your quarterly inspections.   How will 
you manage that?  I would recommend a split inspection. Either way, you’ll need 
cooperation from the supplier.

If it doesn’t pass, will you be able to influence design changes?

There’s a reason the mfg’r isn’t getting it certified - either money or it 
won’t pass.  If the later you’ll be looking for another supplier or if your 
volume is enough maybe they’ll get it into compliance.

I hope that helps.

Best Regards and Be Safe,

John

John Allen
President & CEO
Product Safety Consulting, Inc
www.productsafetyinc.com

On Jul 7, 2022, at 8:53 AM, Lauren Crane 
<1afd08519f18-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:



[EXTERNAL EMAIL] DO NOT CLICK links or attachments unless you recognize the 
sender and know the content is safe.
Brian,

I’m curious if your NRTL has made it clear for what topic the pump needs 
certification? There are many energy efficiency criteria being applied to 
industrial components of various kinds these days. I cannot bring them all to 
mind quickly, but water circulators are certainly a possibility, as well as 3 
phase induction motors. Energy efficiency compliance generally cannot be judged 
at the incorporated level.

Best Regards,
-Lauren

From: Brian Kunde 
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2022 2:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] NRTL Marks on Industrial Pump Assemblies



External Email: Do NOT reply, click on links, or open attachments unless you 
recognize the sender and know the content is safe. If you believe this email 
may be unsafe, please click on the “Report Phishing” button on the top right of 
Outlook.


I am confused and frustrated.  We have an industrial product that includes a 
small water recirculation tank which includes a motor/pump assembly that is 
powered by 230V/360V/460Vac 3-phase.  Our NRTL inspectors says this pump 
assembly must have UL, CSA, or equivalent. Here is a website that shows the 
type of assembly we are looking for:

https://www.graymills.com/fm-series.html

The trouble is, Graymills, Granger, Dayton, etc. doesn't provide NRTL markings 
on the pumps that meet our functional requirements.  They all say that most of 
their customers do not require these marks so they only offer a few models that 
do.

How can this be? Am I missing something?  Some say that manufacturers can get 
the pumps approved as part of a certification of the entire machine, but how 
can the pump be evaluated by a system integrator who doesn't manufacture the 
pump, nor has any constructional information?  Wouldn't it HAVE to be done by 
the motor manufacturer?

I keep asking our NRTL Field Inspector if he would accept such a product and 
the answer is no.  Our CSA inspector also says no; it must have CSA or 
equivalent on the motor and/or motor/pump assembly.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
The Other Brian
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Website: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 

Re: [PSES] NRTL Marks on Industrial Pump Assemblies

[Lauren Crane]

Brian,

I'm curious if your NRTL has made it clear for what topic the pump needs 
certification? There are many energy efficiency criteria being applied to 
industrial components of various kinds these days. I cannot bring them all to 
mind quickly, but water circulators are certainly a possibility, as well as 3 
phase induction motors. Energy efficiency compliance generally cannot be judged 
at the incorporated level.

Best Regards,
-Lauren

From: Brian Kunde 
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2022 2:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] NRTL Marks on Industrial Pump Assemblies



External Email: Do NOT reply, click on links, or open attachments unless you 
recognize the sender and know the content is safe. If you believe this email 
may be unsafe, please click on the "Report Phishing" button on the top right of 
Outlook.


I am confused and frustrated.  We have an industrial product that includes a 
small water recirculation tank which includes a motor/pump assembly that is 
powered by 230V/360V/460Vac 3-phase.  Our NRTL inspectors says this pump 
assembly must have UL, CSA, or equivalent. Here is a website that shows the 
type of assembly we are looking for:

https://www.graymills.com/fm-series.html

The trouble is, Graymills, Granger, Dayton, etc. doesn't provide NRTL markings 
on the pumps that meet our functional requirements.  They all say that most of 
their customers do not require these marks so they only offer a few models that 
do.

How can this be? Am I missing something?  Some say that manufacturers can get 
the pumps approved as part of a certification of the entire machine, but how 
can the pump be evaluated by a system integrator who doesn't manufacture the 
pump, nor has any constructional information?  Wouldn't it HAVE to be done by 
the motor manufacturer?

I keep asking our NRTL Field Inspector if he would accept such a product and 
the answer is no.  Our CSA inspector also says no; it must have CSA or 
equivalent on the motor and/or motor/pump assembly.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
The Other Brian
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Website: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>



To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: 
https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1

LAM RESEARCH CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any 

Re: [PSES] 2022 Blue Guide has been published

[Lauren Crane]

Thanks very much, Doug. The guide is certainly looking more formal this edition.

Best Regards,
-Lauren

From: Kealey, Doug <1230523daaa3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 5, 2022 6:25 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] 2022 Blue Guide has been published



External Email: Do NOT reply, click on links, or open attachments unless you 
recognize the sender and know the content is safe. If you believe this email 
may be unsafe, please click on the "Report Phishing" button on the top right of 
Outlook.


Hi All,
The 2022 Blue Guide can be downloaded at 
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A52022XC0629%2804%29=1657056593355
 (originally was going to be called the 2020 Blue Guide)

Best regards,
Doug




CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the sole use of 
the intended recipient(s) and contain information that may be Garmin 
confidential and/or Garmin legally privileged. If you have received this email 
in error, please notify the sender by reply email and delete the message. Any 
disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this communication (including 
attachments) by someone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. Thank 
you.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Website: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>



To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: 
https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1

LAM RESEARCH CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any 
documents, files, or previous e-mail messages attached to it, (collectively, 
"E-mail Transmission") may be subject to one or more of the following based on 
the associated sensitivity level: E-mail Transmission (i) contains confidential 
information, (ii) is prohibited from distribution outside of Lam, and/or (iii) 
is intended solely for and restricted to the specified recipient(s). If you are 
not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the 
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, 
distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this 
message is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in 
error, please