Re: [PSES] SV: [PSES] User manual by accompanying documents or via affixed QR

[John Woodgate]

No. I don't see so many EU documents as others here do, and it is very 
difficult, as you know, to find a document when you don't know a 
document title to look for. I am remembering information posted here 
quite a long time ago.


On 2023-08-13 17:56, Amund Westin wrote:


Yes, I was thinking that a short paper guide would help. URL link is 
important as you say, and QR are actually for advanced mobile users.


Have you seen this issue been discussed in “Blue Guide” or other EU 
documents?


*Fra:*John Woodgate
*Sendt:* 13. august 2023 18:43
*Til:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Emne:* Re: [PSES] User manual by accompanying documents or via affixed QR

I believe that in Europe, it is not allowed. Current practice seems to 
be to include with the product a short  'User Guide' or similar, which 
includes the safety information required by the relevant safety 
standard, and the DOC(s), together with a text link of the URL of the 
full User Manual. You could include a QR code in addition, but not 
instead of the text link, because about 15 % of people don't have a 
smart phone or don't know much about using it for anything but calls, 
text messages and the camera.


On 2023-08-13 16:57, Amund Westin wrote:

To avoid a lot of paper use, it is possible to leave a short
instruction with the product to enter a web site or use affixed QR
code (on product) to get access to the User manual and other
relevant documentation?

Should such a symbol Link
https://www.iso.org/obp/ui#iso:grs:7000:3500  also be attached
when using QR code?

Best regards

Amund



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[PSES] SV: [PSES] User manual by accompanying documents or via affixed QR

[Amund Westin]

Yes, I was thinking that a short paper guide would help. URL link is important 
as you say, and QR are actually for advanced mobile users.

 

Have you seen this issue been discussed in “Blue Guide” or other EU documents?

 

 

 

 

Fra: John Woodgate 
Sendt: 13. august 2023 18:43
Til: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Emne: Re: [PSES] User manual by accompanying documents or via affixed QR

 

I believe that in Europe, it is not allowed. Current practice seems to be to 
include with the product a short  'User Guide' or similar, which includes the 
safety information required by the relevant safety standard, and the DOC(s), 
together with a text link of the URL of the full User Manual. You could include 
a QR code in addition, but not instead of the text link, because about 15 % of 
people don't have a smart phone or don't know much about using it for anything 
but calls, text messages and the camera.

On 2023-08-13 16:57, Amund Westin wrote:

To avoid a lot of paper use, it is possible to leave a short instruction with 
the product to enter a web site or use affixed QR code (on product) to get 
access to the User manual and other relevant documentation?

Should such a symbol Link https://www.iso.org/obp/ui#iso:grs:7000:3500  also be 
attached when using QR code?

 

Best regards 

Amund

 

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Re: [PSES] User manual by accompanying documents or via affixed QR

[John Woodgate]

I believe that in Europe, it is not allowed. Current practice seems to 
be to include with the product a short  'User Guide' or similar, which 
includes the safety information required by the relevant safety 
standard, and the DOC(s), together with a text link of the URL of the 
full User Manual. You could include a QR code in addition, but not 
instead of the text link, because about 15 % of people don't have a 
smart phone or don't know much about using it for anything but calls, 
text messages and the camera.


On 2023-08-13 16:57, Amund Westin wrote:


To avoid a lot of paper use, it is possible to leave a short 
instruction with the product to enter a web site or use affixed QR 
code (on product) to get access to the User manual and other relevant 
documentation?


Should such a symbol Link https://www.iso.org/obp/ui#iso:grs:7000:3500 
 also be attached when using QR code?


Best regards

Amund



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Re: [PSES] SV: [PSES] User manual by accompanying documents or via affixed QR

[Chris]

 Amund,We at Tarana Wireless started using QR code to get access to latest user 
guide info to install and other relevant info.No issues so far with this 
process in place.Christopher

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 09:01:41 AM PDT, Amund Westin 
 wrote:  
 
 
Can’t find info about this in the Blue Guide

Fra: Amund Westin 
Sendt: 13. august 2023 17:57
Til: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Emne: [PSES] User manual by accompanying documents or via affixed QR

  

To avoid a lot of paper use, it is possible to leave a short instruction with 
the product to enter a web site or use affixed QR code (on product) to get 
access to the User manual and other relevant documentation?

Should such a symbol Link https://www.iso.org/obp/ui#iso:grs:7000:3500  also be 
attached when using QR code?

  

Best regards 

Amund

  

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[PSES] SV: [PSES] User manual by accompanying documents or via affixed QR

[Amund Westin]

Can’t find info about this in the Blue Guide

 

 

 

Fra: Amund Westin 
Sendt: 13. august 2023 17:57
Til: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Emne: [PSES] User manual by accompanying documents or via affixed QR

 

To avoid a lot of paper use, it is possible to leave a short instruction with 
the product to enter a web site or use affixed QR code (on product) to get 
access to the User manual and other relevant documentation?

Should such a symbol Link https://www.iso.org/obp/ui#iso:grs:7000:3500  also be 
attached when using QR code?

 

Best regards 

Amund

 

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Re: [PSES] thoughts on ESD test lab problems

[John Woodgate]

I really hope not. See my story 'How to lose half a million dollars':

/April 2 2014
From: Compliance (JH)
To: MJ54 Team Leader (BB)
Subject: MJ54 tests
Not good news. Model for testing (MFT) failed several EMC tests, and 
there are safety issues as well. Details in a following message. Can we 
discuss?

May 30 2014
From: BB
To: JH
Subject: MJ54 tests
cc: Manager, R&D
I regret the delay in our discussion due to our incompatible schedules.
Your proposals for MJ54 are simply unacceptable; a $5 on-cost and a 
redesign of the PC board and enclosure to accommodate the larger EMI 
filter compromise both the costing and the time-scale already submitted 
to Marketing and approved. In addition, the bandwidth reserve of stage 1 
has been reduced to such an extent that conformity with specification 
cannot be assured in production.

July 31 2014
From: Manager, Compliance
To: Manager, R&D
Subject: MJ54
After investigation, I confirm that the measures requested by JH are 
fully justified and essential. I also consider it most regrettable that 
both JH and BB are under suspension as a result of an altercation 
admittedly instigated by BB.

September 29 2014
From: VP Marketing
To: VP R&D
cc: President
Subject: MJ54
The increased cost and revised time-scale that you have submitted make 
the product unviable. In addition, our original request to include BGQQ 
compatibility if possible, which you declined to fulfil, is no longer an 
option. Acme and two other competitors now have products with full BGQQ 
compatibility at prices 10% lower than your original costing indicated.


/


On 2023-08-13 16:47, Ralph McDiarmid wrote:
I wonder why industry is spending so much on EMC compliance.  Is it 
because the development teams are leaving this work to the final phase 
of the design, where changes are expensive and schedules slip ? 


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[PSES] User manual by accompanying documents or via affixed QR

[Amund Westin]

To avoid a lot of paper use, it is possible to leave a short instruction with 
the product to enter a web site or use affixed QR code (on product) to get 
access to the User manual and other relevant documentation?

Should such a symbol Link https://www.iso.org/obp/ui#iso:grs:7000:3500  also be 
attached when using QR code?

 

Best regards 

Amund

 


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Re: [PSES] thoughts on ESD test lab problems

[Ralph McDiarmid]

I wonder why industry is spending so much on EMC compliance.  Is it because the 
development teams are leaving this work to the final phase of the design, where 
changes are expensive and schedules slip ?  

 

Ralph 

 

From: doug emcesd.com  
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2023 8:57 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] thoughts on ESD test lab problems

 

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. But in the case of ESD testing, IEC 
61000-4-2 is not a very good standard. We knew this in 1996 where work done by 
myself and others showed  that the waveform needs to have a di/dt spec to rule 
out the uncontrolled high frequency ringing many simulators generate that bear 
no connection to reality. This should be a reasonable simple design to do as 
one simulator already has no high frequency ringing on its current waveform.

 

In addition, we now know these same simulators have uncontrolled radiation as 
well that does not reflect what equipment is subjected to in the field.

 

All the work on the waveform was done about 30 years ago and should be in the 
IEC records.

 

All this causes companies to spend hundreds of millions of dollars (my estimate 
from familiarity with my client’s designs) per year in delayed product 
introductions, and to a small extent engineering costs. The costs to redesign 
simulators would be a tiny fraction of what the current costs to industry are 
in only one year.

 

Doug Smith

Sent from my iPhone

IPhone: 408-858-4528

Office: 702-570-6108

Email: d...@dsmith.org  

Website: http://dsmith.org

  _  

From: Brent DeWitt mailto:bdew...@ix.netcom.com> >
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2023 5:05:40 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG   
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> >
Subject: Re: [PSES] thoughts on ESD test lab problems 

 

I suspect that folks who have been directly involved with air-discharge ESD can 
appreciate it's inherent, operator influenced, uncertainly.

Having run both internal and third party EMC test labs, I recognize that few 
things are done "perfectly" (whatever "perfect" is), but I've always considered 
it my responsibility to catch the errors and correct them before they influence 
my customers outcome.

The larger the lab, the more likely it is that the experience of the tester 
will vary.  I am not saying that the customer show bear the brunt of that, the 
lab should have test review processes in place to mitigate it.

Had to pitch in.

Brent DeWitt

On 8/12/2023 1:47 PM, John Mcbain wrote:

The basic question is, "How good is good enough?" 

Risk standards for product safety address that question to some extent, but it 
applies to every lab measurement, whether the applicable standards (or 
regulations) consider it or not.




Best regards, 

John McBain

 

 

On Sat, Aug 12, 2023 at 2:26 AM John Woodgate mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk> > wrote:

But crossing t's and dotting i's is exactly what is required by competence 
standards, including the several ISO 170XX series. Furthermore, standards 
specify performance of test equipment, if possible, and only if that is not 
possible, they specify design. If that is not possible, they specify 
construction, and indeed many CISPR and other standards specify test set-ups 
with elaborate drawings.

EMC testing is DIFFICULT. It does involve extensive experience and it is 
costly. Management systems are/should be in place to catch errors. Daily and 
weekly verifications are required. In many cases, running tests on a known 
sample are OK, but that's dodgy for ESD, because repeated testing WILL cause 
damage.

On 2023-08-12 03:25, Ken Javor wrote:

No way am I jumping in the middle of this debate, but it is extremely useful in 
another way.

 

A few observations:

 

ESD is by its very nature a chaotic event (air discharge more so than contact).

 

It is not entirely surprising that someone who has spent decades working on 
something would find examples of non-idealities in the work of technicians 
doing rote work following canned test procedures.  A test facility isn’t going 
to make a profit employing a septuagenarian devoted to crossing every “t” and 
dotting every “i.”  (Written by someone pushing that age bracket pretty hard).

 

IFF (if and only if) Mr. Smith’s observations are correct, that is an 
indictment of the test requirement/method. That is, it is the responsibility of 
the standards committees to write these such that they can be adequately 
performed by the average test facility and personnel. If it takes someone with 
five decades of experience, and they must spend an inordinate amount of time 
($$$) to get it right, then the standard is a failure. 

 

-- 

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

 

From: "doug emcesd.com