Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] ESD testing - Contact Mode to plated metal surfaces? - Thanks

[Sykes, Bob]

Thanks to all who replied publicly and privately to my question on ESD to metal 
surfaces with non-paint coatings.  It seems everyone agrees to treat them the 
same as paint.

As Brian points out, the Standard I'm looking at (BS EN 61000-4-2:2009) is a 
bit fuzzy using the term "paint" then switching to "coating".

So now I'm just left with a rhetorical question.  Has anyone heard such a 
declaration from a manufacturer?  In my decades of EMC work, I have not.

Thanks again,
Bob


From: Brian Kunde 
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2023 9:45 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] ESD testing - Contact Mode to plated metal 
surfaces?

The standard I have says this in section 8. 3. 2: "In the case of painted 
surfaces covering a conducting substrate, the following procedure shall be 
adopted: If the coating is not declared to be an insulating coating by the 
equipment manufacturer,

The standard I have says this in section 8.3.2:

"In the case of painted surfaces covering a conducting substrate, the following 
procedure shall be adopted:

If the coating is not declared to be an insulating coating by the equipment 
manufacturer, then the pointed tip of the generator shall penetrate the coating 
so as to make contact with the conducting substrate. Coating declared as 
insulating by the manufacturer shall only be submitted to the air discharge. 
The contact discharge test shall not be applied to such surfaces.

In the case of air discharges, the ESD generator shall approach the EUT as fast 
as possible until contact between the electrode and the EUT is made (without 
causing mechanical damage). After each discharge, the ESD generator (discharge 
electrode) shall be removed from the EUT. The generator is then retriggered for 
a new single discharge. This procedure shall be repeated until the discharges 
are completed. In the case of an air discharge test, the discharge switch, 
which is used for contact discharge, shall be closed."

The standard probably should not call out "painted" but worded in a way that 
would include all types of coatings.  Maybe the newer versions of the standard 
clarifies this.

The Other Brian

On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 9:13 PM Brent DeWitt 
mailto:bdew...@ix.netcom.com>> wrote:
I believe the language said something like: "the contact discharge tip shall be 
applied to any coating not expressly declared as insulative"

Could be wrong though.

Brent DeWitt
Milford, MA
On 9/18/2023 7:39 PM, Ken Wyatt wrote:
Always had the impression the sharp end of the CD tip was designed to punch 
through any coated metal.
Kenneth Wyatt
Woodland Park, CO
Sent from my iPhone.


On Sep 18, 2023, at 09:48, Sykes, Bob 
 wrote:

Worldly Experts,

I have a question regarding the suitability of contact mode ESD testing to 
plated metal surfaces.  I understand the wording in IEC 61000-4-2 regarding 
painted and bare metal.  Does the same logic used for painted metal surfaces 
also apply to other coatings (anodized, plated, passivated etc.)?  These are 
not addressed in the Standard.

adTHANKSvance,
Bob Sykes




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[PSES] seeing postings

[Ralph McDiarmid]

I see that I had to set something up on the list server so that I can see my
own postings.

 


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Re: [PSES] EMI filtering for 600V AC mains system

[Ralph McDiarmid]

Circuit simulation (Pspice or similar) would allow you to find highest
working voltage on each capacitor under normal and under single-fault
conditions including component tolerances and line voltage variation.  In
this country, a nominal 347/600V service has voltage variation limits of
550V to 625V measured phase-to-phase.   X2 type capacitors rated 400Vac
should be suitable in your applications, but you need to do the analysis and
maybe do a few tests.

Ralph 

From: Boštjan Glavič  
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 8:01 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMI filtering for 600V AC mains system

Dear safety experts

I hope there is someone who can help me on below topic.


Customer is designing 600V rectifier for datacentres. Mains voltage in
datacentre will be 600Vac, delta system (no neutral), OVCII with 4000V
transients. Product will be certified according IEC 62368-1.

They are designing input EMI filter with X caps. They plan to use so call Y
filter (with artificial neutral point not being connected). Question is what
kind of X caps they need to use and what kind of rating.

Question is raised since clause 5.5.2 is not so clear in below paragraph (do
we need to apply in this case or not)

Under single fault conditions, if a capacitor or RC unit consists of more
than one capacitor, the voltage on each of the remaining individual
capacitors shall not exceed the voltage rating of the relevant individual
capacitors. 


If customer is using X1 capacitor rated min. 350V on the positions CX1-CX3
is such configuration acceptable or not? If not, why not.





Thank you for your support.

Best regards,
Bostjan
SIQ Ljubljana

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[PSES] test message only

[Ralph McDiarmid]

 


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Re: [PSES] Reliability/Fault analysis tools?

[Ralph McDiarmid]

Brian, 

As a good starting point, I recommend reading the following:

UL991 :  Safety-Related Controls Employing Solid-State Devices

CSA C22.2 No. 0.8 : Safety Functions Incorporating Electronic Technology

There is functional safety analysis software available, but some may have a
hefty price tag.

Ralph

From: Brian Gregory  
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2023 3:38 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Reliability/Fault analysis tools?

 
 EV Chargers getting more and more complicated
 
For our controls investigations, hardware failures need to be assessed.  One
of the safety standards calls out MIL-STD-217, which has got to be nearly as
old as my Dad.   Looking for more up to date, modern and computer-based
processes and procedures.
 
thanks all!
 
Colorado Brian 

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Re: [PSES] 50Hz Product and the EMC Directive

[Charlie Blackham]

Scott

If you read the Guide to the EMC Directive, specifically section 1.4.4 
Inherently benign equipment you will find multiple references to certain 
product categories being exempt only if they are “without active electronic 
parts or active components;”

A transistor is an active component.

So whilst you are very likely to have no EMC emissions or immunity issues, I 
would not be able to write an argument that exempts your product from the 
Directive.

You EMC assessment against Harmonised Standards does not mandate testing 
against all aspects of them, but I would imagine that at least some radiated 
and conducted emissions would be diligent.

In the absence of a product standard, the Generic Standards, EN 61000-6-x are 
the appropriate route and the ones you should assess against and list on the 
DoC.

As an aside, a Notified Body cannot state that a product is inside or outside 
the scope of the Directive as that is outside of their remit under the 
Directive and their accreditation.

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: Scott Douglas 
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 2:35 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] 50Hz Product and the EMC Directive

Hello List Experts,

We have a product that operates at line frequency (50 or 60 Hz). It is a power 
conditioner which includes filtering, surge suppression, and extreme voltage 
shut down. It is purely analog and contains nothing more complex than 
transistors.

We believe the EU EMC Directive does not apply to the product because it does 
not operate any higher than 60 Hz and cannot generate EMI whether radiated or 
conducted.

From EU Directive 2014/30/EU, Article 2 (2 (d)):


2. This Directive shall not apply to:


(d) equipment the inherent nature of the physical characteristics of which is 
such that:


(i) it is incapable of generating or contributing to electromagnetic emissions 
which exceed a level allowing radio and telecommunication equipment and other 
equipment to operate as intended; and
(ii) it operates without unacceptable degradation in the presence of the 
electromagnetic disturbance normally consequent upon its intended use;


I am not aware of any EMI standards that cover this type of product, most 
conducted EMI starts at 9kHz or 150 kHz, and radiated EMI typically starts at 
30 MHz.

There is an inspector in an EU country that believes the EMC Directive does 
apply. Their letter makes these statements:

The EU Declaration of Conformity (DoC) is incorrect or incomplete (Article 15; 
Annex IV; etc. of EU Directive 2014/30/EU).

A conformity assessment procedure seems to be incomplete (Article 14) to 
demonstrate that the apparatus meets the essential requirements set out in 
Article 6 and Annex I of EU Directive 2014/30/EU. EU Directive 2014/30/EU is 
missing.

Our DofC does not list the EMC Directive, specifically because we think it does 
not apply. It also does not list any EMI/EMC standards as we find none that 
apply.
Is there a Harmonized Standard that would cover this type of product for the 
EMC Directive?
Is it normal to list a directive in a DofC if that directive does not apply?
How does one convince the inspector that the directive does not apply?
 Looking forward to any and all comments.
Scott


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Re: [PSES] 50Hz Product and the EMC Directive

[Ralph McDiarmid]

The phrase, “as to ensure that”, implies some testing would be needed for both 
emissions and immunity.  The directive doesn’t insist on testing, but to meet 
the “essential requirements” testing would seem the only way to reinforce a 
claim of compliance. 

Ralph McDiarmid
(Vancouver)

From: mailto:bart.de.gee...@telenet.be  
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 7:00 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] 50Hz Product and the EMC Directive

Hi Scott,

The directive also states:

ANNEX I
ESSENTIAL REQUIREMENTS
1.   General requirements
Equipment shall be so designed and manufactured, having regard to the state of 
the art, as to ensure that:
(a)
the electromagnetic disturbance generated does not exceed the level above which 
radio and telecommunications equipment or other equipment cannot operate as 
intended;

(b)
it has a level of immunity to the electromagnetic disturbance to be expected in 
its intended use which allows it to operate without unacceptable degradation of 
its intended use.


⇨ Besides the ‘emission’ part of the test there is also the ‘immunity’ related 
aspect of it.  (You can do electrostatic discharge, EFT, surge and other 
tests).   (and I do not see a reason why products not containing active 
oscillators would be excluded from immunity testing). 
⇨ Although your product might not contain an active oscillator, I have seen 
products that only contained a few passive components, but where the 
manufacturer still succeeded to make an active oscillator (unwantedly) that 
exceeded the legal limits by more than 30 dB.  



Greetings,
Bart

From: Scott Douglas  
Sent: woensdag 27 september 2023 15:35
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] 50Hz Product and the EMC Directive

Hello List Experts,

We have a product that operates at line frequency (50 or 60 Hz). It is a power 
conditioner which includes filtering, surge suppression, and extreme voltage 
shut down. It is purely analog and contains nothing more complex than 
transistors.

We believe the EU EMC Directive does not apply to the product because it does 
not operate any higher than 60 Hz and cannot generate EMI whether radiated or 
conducted. 

>From EU Directive 2014/30/EU, Article 2 (2 (d)):

2. This Directive shall not apply to:
(d) equipment the inherent nature of the physical characteristics of which is 
such that:
(i) it is incapable of generating or contributing to electromagnetic emissions 
which exceed a level allowing radio and telecommunication equipment and other 
equipment to operate as intended; and
(ii) it operates without unacceptable degradation in the presence of the 
electromagnetic disturbance normally consequent upon its intended use;
I am not aware of any EMI standards that cover this type of product, most 
conducted EMI starts at 9kHz or 150 kHz, and radiated EMI typically starts at 
30 MHz. 

There is an inspector in an EU country that believes the EMC Directive does 
apply. Their letter makes these statements:

The EU Declaration of Conformity (DoC) is incorrect or incomplete (Article 15; 
Annex IV; etc. of EU Directive 2014/30/EU).

A conformity assessment procedure seems to be incomplete (Article 14) to 
demonstrate that the apparatus meets the essential requirements set out in 
Article 6 and Annex I of EU Directive 2014/30/EU. EU Directive 2014/30/EU is 
missing.

Our DofC does not list the EMC Directive, specifically because we think it does 
not apply. It also does not list any EMI/EMC standards as we find none that 
apply.
Is there a Harmonized Standard that would cover this type of product for the 
EMC Directive?
Is it normal to list a directive in a DofC if that directive does not apply? 
How does one convince the inspector that the directive does not apply?
 Looking forward to any and all comments.
Scott

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Re: [PSES] 50Hz Product and the EMC Directive

[Chas Grasso]

Isn't this one of the product compliance conditions that a Notified Body
can issue a judgement?
They *should* cast in your favor.

On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 7:35 AM Scott Douglas  wrote:

> * This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
> sdouglas...@gmail.com  *
> --
>
> Hello List Experts,
>
> We have a product that operates at line frequency (50 or 60 Hz). It is a
> power conditioner which includes filtering, surge suppression, and extreme
> voltage shut down. It is purely analog and contains nothing more complex
> than transistors.
>
> We believe the EU EMC Directive does not apply to the product because it
> does not operate any higher than 60 Hz and cannot generate EMI whether
> radiated or conducted.
>
> From EU Directive 2014/30/EU, Article 2 (2 (d)):
>
>
> 2. This Directive shall not apply to:
>
> (d) equipment the inherent nature of the physical characteristics of which
> is such that:
>
> (i) it is incapable of generating or contributing to electromagnetic
> emissions which exceed a level allowing radio and telecommunication
> equipment and other equipment to operate as intended; and
> (ii) it operates without unacceptable degradation in the presence of the
> electromagnetic disturbance normally consequent upon its intended use;
>
> I am not aware of any EMI standards that cover this type of product, most
> conducted EMI starts at 9kHz or 150 kHz, and radiated EMI typically starts
> at 30 MHz.
>
> There is an inspector in an EU country that believes the EMC Directive
> does apply. Their letter makes these statements:
>
> The EU Declaration of Conformity (DoC) is incorrect or incomplete (Article
> 15; Annex IV; etc. of EU Directive 2014/30/EU).
>
> A conformity assessment procedure seems to be incomplete (Article 14) to
> demonstrate that the apparatus meets the essential requirements set out in
> Article 6 and Annex I of EU Directive 2014/30/EU. EU Directive 2014/30/EU
> is missing.
>
>
> Our DofC does not list the EMC Directive, specifically because we think it
> does not apply. It also does not list any EMI/EMC standards as we find none
> that apply.
>
> Is there a Harmonized Standard that would cover this type of product for
> the EMC Directive?
>
> Is it normal to list a directive in a DofC if that directive does not
> apply?
>
> How does one convince the inspector that the directive does not apply?
>
>  Looking forward to any and all comments.
>
> Scott
> --
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All
> emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/
> 
>
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> 
> Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe)
> 
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> 
>
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> Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org
>
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> --
>
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> 
>


-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(w) 303-706-5467

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

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Re: [PSES] 50Hz Product and the EMC Directive

[Ralph McDiarmid]

The phrase, “as to ensure that”, implies some testing would be needed for both 
emissions and immunity.  The directive doesn’t insist on testing, but in order 
to meet the “essential requirements” testing would seem the only way to 
reinforce a claim of compliance. 

 

From: bart.de.gee...@telenet.be  
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 7:00 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] 50Hz Product and the EMC Directive

 

Hi Scott,

 

The directive also states:

 

ANNEX I

ESSENTIAL REQUIREMENTS

1.   General requirements

Equipment shall be so designed and manufactured, having regard to the state of 
the art, as to ensure that:


(a)

the electromagnetic disturbance generated does not exceed the level above which 
radio and telecommunications equipment or other equipment cannot operate as 
intended;

 


(b)

it has a level of immunity to the electromagnetic disturbance to be expected in 
its intended use which allows it to operate without unacceptable degradation of 
its intended use.

 

 

*   Besides the ‘emission’ part of the test there is also the ‘immunity’ 
related aspect of it.  (You can do electrostatic discharge, EFT, surge and 
other tests).   (and I do not see a reason why products not containing active 
oscillators would be excluded from immunity testing). 
*   Although your product might not contain an active oscillator, I have 
seen products that only contained a few passive components, but where the 
manufacturer still succeeded to make an active oscillator (unwantedly) that 
exceeded the legal limits by more than 30 dB.  

 

 

 

Greetings,

Bart

 

From: Scott Douglas mailto:sdouglas...@gmail.com> > 
Sent: woensdag 27 september 2023 15:35
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: [PSES] 50Hz Product and the EMC Directive

 

Hello List Experts,

We have a product that operates at line frequency (50 or 60 Hz). It is a power 
conditioner which includes filtering, surge suppression, and extreme voltage 
shut down. It is purely analog and contains nothing more complex than 
transistors.

We believe the EU EMC Directive does not apply to the product because it does 
not operate any higher than 60 Hz and cannot generate EMI whether radiated or 
conducted. 

>From EU Directive 2014/30/EU, Article 2 (2 (d)):

 

2. This Directive shall not apply to:



(d) equipment the inherent nature of the physical characteristics of which is 
such that:



(i) it is incapable of generating or contributing to electromagnetic emissions 
which exceed a level allowing radio and telecommunication equipment and other 
equipment to operate as intended; and
(ii) it operates without unacceptable degradation in the presence of the 
electromagnetic disturbance normally consequent upon its intended use;



I am not aware of any EMI standards that cover this type of product, most 
conducted EMI starts at 9kHz or 150 kHz, and radiated EMI typically starts at 
30 MHz. 

There is an inspector in an EU country that believes the EMC Directive does 
apply. Their letter makes these statements:

The EU Declaration of Conformity (DoC) is incorrect or incomplete (Article 15; 
Annex IV; etc. of EU Directive 2014/30/EU).

A conformity assessment procedure seems to be incomplete (Article 14) to 
demonstrate that the apparatus meets the essential requirements set out in 
Article 6 and Annex I of EU Directive 2014/30/EU. EU Directive 2014/30/EU is 
missing.


Our DofC does not list the EMC Directive, specifically because we think it does 
not apply. It also does not list any EMI/EMC standards as we find none that 
apply.

Is there a Harmonized Standard that would cover this type of product for the 
EMC Directive?

Is it normal to list a directive in a DofC if that directive does not apply? 

How does one convince the inspector that the directive does not apply?

 Looking forward to any and all comments.

Scott

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 =1 

 

Re: [PSES] 50Hz Product and the EMC Directive

[bart . de . geeter]

Hi Scott,

 

The directive also states:

 

ANNEX I

ESSENTIAL REQUIREMENTS

1.   General requirements

Equipment shall be so designed and manufactured, having regard to the state of 
the art, as to ensure that:


(a)

the electromagnetic disturbance generated does not exceed the level above which 
radio and telecommunications equipment or other equipment cannot operate as 
intended;

 


(b)

it has a level of immunity to the electromagnetic disturbance to be expected in 
its intended use which allows it to operate without unacceptable degradation of 
its intended use.

 

 

*   Besides the ‘emission’ part of the test there is also the ‘immunity’ 
related aspect of it.  (You can do electrostatic discharge, EFT, surge and 
other tests).   (and I do not see a reason why products not containing active 
oscillators would be excluded from immunity testing). 
*   Although your product might not contain an active oscillator, I have 
seen products that only contained a few passive components, but where the 
manufacturer still succeeded to make an active oscillator (unwantedly) that 
exceeded the legal limits by more than 30 dB.  

 

 

 

Greetings,

Bart

 

From: Scott Douglas  
Sent: woensdag 27 september 2023 15:35
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] 50Hz Product and the EMC Directive

 

Hello List Experts,

We have a product that operates at line frequency (50 or 60 Hz). It is a power 
conditioner which includes filtering, surge suppression, and extreme voltage 
shut down. It is purely analog and contains nothing more complex than 
transistors.

We believe the EU EMC Directive does not apply to the product because it does 
not operate any higher than 60 Hz and cannot generate EMI whether radiated or 
conducted. 

>From EU Directive 2014/30/EU, Article 2 (2 (d)):





2. This Directive shall not apply to:




(d) equipment the inherent nature of the physical characteristics of which is 
such that:




(i) it is incapable of generating or contributing to electromagnetic emissions 
which exceed a level allowing radio and telecommunication equipment and other 
equipment to operate as intended; and
(ii) it operates without unacceptable degradation in the presence of the 
electromagnetic disturbance normally consequent upon its intended use;




I am not aware of any EMI standards that cover this type of product, most 
conducted EMI starts at 9kHz or 150 kHz, and radiated EMI typically starts at 
30 MHz. 

There is an inspector in an EU country that believes the EMC Directive does 
apply. Their letter makes these statements:

The EU Declaration of Conformity (DoC) is incorrect or incomplete (Article 15; 
Annex IV; etc. of EU Directive 2014/30/EU).

A conformity assessment procedure seems to be incomplete (Article 14) to 
demonstrate that the apparatus meets the essential requirements set out in 
Article 6 and Annex I of EU Directive 2014/30/EU. EU Directive 2014/30/EU is 
missing.


Our DofC does not list the EMC Directive, specifically because we think it does 
not apply. It also does not list any EMI/EMC standards as we find none that 
apply.

Is there a Harmonized Standard that would cover this type of product for the 
EMC Directive?

Is it normal to list a directive in a DofC if that directive does not apply? 

How does one convince the inspector that the directive does not apply?

 Looking forward to any and all comments.

Scott

  _  

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All 
emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)  
List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net  
Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org   

For policy questions, send mail to:
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 =1 


-

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unsubscribe)
List rules: 

[PSES] 50Hz Product and the EMC Directive

[Scott Douglas]

Hello List Experts,

We have a product that operates at line frequency (50 or 60 Hz). It is a 
power conditioner which includes filtering, surge suppression, and 
extreme voltage shut down. It is purely analog and contains nothing more 
complex than transistors.


We believe the EU EMC Directive does not apply to the product because it 
does not operate any higher than 60 Hz and cannot generate EMI whether 
radiated or conducted.


FromEU Directive 2014/30/EU, Article 2 (2 (d)):


2. This Directive shall not apply to:

(d) equipment the inherent nature of the physical characteristics of 
which is such that:


(i) it is incapable of generating or contributing to electromagnetic 
emissions which exceed a level allowing radio and telecommunication 
equipment and other equipment to operate as intended; and
(ii) it operates without unacceptable degradation in the presence of the 
electromagnetic disturbance normally consequent upon its intended use;


I am not aware of any EMI standards that cover this type of product, 
most conducted EMI starts at 9kHz or 150 kHz, and radiated EMI typically 
starts at 30 MHz.


There is an inspector in an EU country that believes the EMC Directive 
does apply. Their letter makes these statements:


The EU Declaration of Conformity (DoC) is incorrect or incomplete 
(Article 15; Annex IV; etc. of EU Directive 2014/30/EU).


A conformity assessment procedure seems to be incomplete (Article 14) to 
demonstrate that the apparatus meets the essential requirements set out 
in Article 6 and Annex I of EU Directive 2014/30/EU. EU Directive 
2014/30/EU is missing.



Our DofC does not list the EMC Directive, specifically because we think 
it does not apply. It also does not list any EMI/EMC standards as we 
find none that apply.


Is there a Harmonized Standard that would cover this type of product for 
the EMC Directive?


Is it normal to list a directive in a DofC if that directive does not 
apply?


How does one convince the inspector that the directive does not apply?

 Looking forward to any and all comments.

Scott

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/

Website:  https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/
Instructions:  https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net
Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
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