[PSES] Fw: Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?

2024-04-10 Thread Brian Gregory 
  Just finished some testing at an accredited lab.  For an accredited report, 
they run QPs on all measurements whose peak are w/in 6 dB of the limit.  I 
don't know if that's their rule, or by the regulations.  FYI Colorado Brian
-- Forwarded Message --
From: Bill Owsley <00f5a03f18eb-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2024 06:19:10 +


 It reads like there are two limits, peak and QP.  Go over either one and by 
how many and by how much over, does not matter.  it is a fail and fix it.
Otherwise, the lab should be recording the 6 points of each P and QP for 12 
points, well,  let the slide if all points are below the QP limit and graph 
shows that.
Now to get lab to show a continuous graph for radiated emissions might be a 
problem.
Easier to get a new lab !
Some cheap labs will fake a continuous plot by connecting the highest dots.  
Run from them !
Long details on the experience that I got.


 On Friday, April 5, 2024 at 03:33:01 PM EDT, Stultz, Mark 
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:  Hello PSES brain 
trust,
When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies should be 
quasi-peaked? 
CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states:
Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in 
logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the 
six highest disturbances shall be recorded.
 
We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the limit, 
even if that is more than six points.
I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, regardless of 
how many peak measurements are above the limit.
Any thoughts are appreciated.
 
Thanks,
Mark
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Re: [PSES] I would like to hear your thoughts please

2024-04-10 Thread Lfresearch 
Sorry for the late reply, but I did feel the need to express strong disagreement with some statements here.Lets take there first one: how will you know which is worst case if you don’t test. Seriously? I would answer this by saying that an EMC engineer with any proficiency can make an educated decision as to what would be the worst case, further, if one can’t do that you shouldn’t probably be in EMC Engineering. Is the old saying from school days “ You should have an idea of the answer before doing the problem “ no longer stressed in school!The back reference to Boeing is utter BS, sorry Gert, but as someone who contracts for Boeing I take a very strong exception to that ridiculous statement. There is absolutely NO correlation between a poor quality subcontractor and the EMC performance of an EUT. It may be true for airbus, but leave my Boeing alone please.Back to the problem at hand, and serious answers only please.At what point(s) does one draw the line eliminating the need for testing similar designs.Thanks in advance,Derek Walton.On Apr 6, 2024, at 7:55 AM, Gert Gremmen F4LDP  wrote:

  

  
  
Dear All,

Within the framework of the EMCD, all configurations shall be
conform, so if you choose to actually test, 
all configurations shall be part of the test. The subject of worse
case is a "miroir d'alouette"... how will you ever know which
is worst case without carrying out the test ? A pre-scan is
informative but the radiated emission test contains already a
pre-scan (peak) for the final QP-measurement.  We already require a
EMC risk analysis which is a kind of pre-scan too. How many
pre-pre-prescans will we need to be sure ?
"to repeat some (which?) test to make sure nothing was
broken" it's another discipline, but that is how Boeing lost a
door in flight. And that  is not a unregulated sector without
thorough quality scans (understatement), and still it happens.
Imagine the costs and effort for Boeing to rebuild their reputation
? Didn't we all learned the exponential graph of EMC costs versus
development time ?
If you need proof (for authorities, or for yourself), nothing can
replace the actual test. 

Gert Gremmen

On 6-4-2024 0:47, Lfresearch wrote:


  Hi folks,

I would like to advise a client at where to draw the line on what needs testing. I would like to solicit opinions besides my own. Otherwise it’s the fox urging the chicken coop…

So a manufacturer that makes a product of which there will be several variants. All use the same board, but have different sections of circuits populated. This may require slightly different code to run on the same uP in each case.

So.. The burning question is can we perform and analysis that postulates a worse case hardware/software combination and test just one configuration? Or, do we have to do every combination?

Or, are there some guidelines about where we draw the line of what to test and what can be claimed as similarity?

Off list responses are welcome too.

Thanks,

Derek Walton
LFResearch/SSCLabs.

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-- 
Independent Expert on CE marking 
EMC Consultant
Electrical Safety Consultant
  


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BEGIN:VCARD
FN:Gert Gremmen
N:Gremmen;Gert;;;
ADR:;;1261 Route de

Re: [PSES] RFID testing per AIM 7351731

2024-04-10 Thread doug emcesd.com 
Try NTS Fremont or Intertek.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: AOL MAIL 
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2024 7:57:03 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: [PSES] RFID testing per AIM 7351731

Hi folks,

May I get recommendations for EMC lab in Bay Area (or West Coast) which is 
certified for testing RFID per AIM 7351731?

Appreciate any advice.

Thank you,
Eugene Peyzner

Fresenius Medical care


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Re: [PSES] German Required on Product Label to Match China and Nordic for (GS) ?

2024-04-10 Thread John Woodgate 

Clause F.1 of 62368-1 says:

/Unless symbols are used, safety related equipment marking, instructions 
and instructional

safeguards shall be in a language accepted in the respective countries./

No doubt Germany expects German.

On 2024-04-10 17:10, Charlie Blackham wrote:


Rick

I’m not expert on GS certification but Low Voltage Directive Article 6 
required safety instructions to be in a suitable language


7. Manufacturers shall ensure that the electrical equipment is 
accompanied by instructions and safety information in a language which 
can be easily understood by consumers and other end-users, as 
determined by the Member State concerned. Such instructions and safety 
information, as well as any labelling, shall be clear, understandable 
and intelligible.


There’s a similar requirement in RED article 10 and I’m not sure 
whether this document has been published for other Directives, but 
ADCO RED have published “National language requirements of the 
national implementation of the Radio Equipment Directive (RED 
2014/53/EU)” , https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/46453


Best regards

Charlie**

**

*Charlie Blackham*

*Sulis Consultants Ltd*

*Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317*

*Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/ *

Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

*From:*Rick Linford 
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 10, 2024 3:53 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* [PSES] German Required on Product Label to Match China and 
Nordic for (GS) ?


Dear EMC-PSTC Pros,

Specific to ITE IEC 62368-1 type standards and German GS 
certification. (many power supplies and ITE product carry GS mark)


Is German language required on products to match the text of other 
countries requirement to obtain German GS?


And (not or) add a statement that non-German text is not important to 
Germany?


China elevation and humidity waring is written into law and is very 
clear. Is there an equivalent German law and or specific German text?


仅适用于海拔2000米以下地区安全使用

仅适用于在非热带气候条件下安全使用

Nordic countries grounded plug warning, is specific to national 
differences in IEC 62368-1. I cannot find German equivalent in IEC 
62368-1:2014, is it there?


Apparaten skall anslutas till jordat uttag.

Apparatet må tilkoples jordet stikkontakt.

Laite on liitettävä suojamaadoituskoskettimilla varustettuun pistorasiaan.

Standard does state to provide safety information and instruction in 
language of use and there is German law it must be in German. This has 
been the case for decades.


A recent GS certification was held up until compliance with adding 
text.  They are marking other countries requirements de facto German 
GS requirement. Already aware German GS is not a legal requirement and 
there many GS issuers. I would have expected PSTC to be lit up 
already, if this was a requirement applied to every manufacturer of 
ITE and AV with GS. Starts now, I guess.


I am representing myself. I am not asking for any past, current or 
future employer.


Linford@IEEE



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Re: [PSES] German Required on Product Label to Match China and Nordic for (GS) ?

2024-04-10 Thread Charlie Blackham 
Rick

I’m not expert on GS certification but Low Voltage Directive Article 6 required 
safety instructions to be in a suitable language

7. Manufacturers shall ensure that the electrical equipment is accompanied by 
instructions and safety information in a language which can be easily 
understood by consumers and other end-users, as determined by the Member State 
concerned. Such instructions and safety information, as well as any labelling, 
shall be clear, understandable and intelligible.

There’s a similar requirement in RED article 10 and I’m not sure whether this 
document has been published for other Directives, but ADCO RED have published 
“National language requirements of the national implementation of the Radio 
Equipment Directive (RED 2014/53/EU)” , 
https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/46453

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: Rick Linford 
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2024 3:53 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] German Required on Product Label to Match China and Nordic for 
(GS) ?

Dear EMC-PSTC Pros,

Specific to ITE IEC 62368-1 type standards and German GS certification. (many 
power supplies and ITE product carry GS mark)
Is German language required on products to match the text of other countries 
requirement to obtain German GS?
And (not or) add a statement that non-German text is not important to Germany?

China elevation and humidity waring is written into law and is very clear. Is 
there an equivalent German law and or specific German text?
仅适用于海拔2000米以下地区安全使用
仅适用于在非热带气候条件下安全使用

Nordic countries grounded plug warning, is specific to national differences in 
IEC 62368-1. I cannot find German equivalent in IEC 62368-1:2014, is it there?
Apparaten skall anslutas till jordat uttag.
Apparatet må tilkoples jordet stikkontakt.
Laite on liitettävä suojamaadoituskoskettimilla varustettuun pistorasiaan.

Standard does state to provide safety information and instruction in language 
of use and there is German law it must be in German. This has been the case for 
decades.

A recent GS certification was held up until compliance with adding text.  They 
are marking other countries requirements de facto German GS requirement. 
Already aware German GS is not a legal requirement and there many GS issuers. I 
would have expected PSTC to be lit up already, if this was a requirement 
applied to every manufacturer of ITE and AV with GS. Starts now, I guess.

I am representing myself. I am not asking for any past, current or future 
employer.
Linford@IEEE


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[PSES] RFID testing per AIM 7351731

2024-04-10 Thread AOL MAIL 
Hi folks,
May I get recommendations for EMC lab in Bay Area (or West Coast) which is 
certified for testing RFID per AIM 7351731? 
Appreciate any advice.
Thank you,Eugene Peyzner
Fresenius Medical care

-

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[PSES] German Required on Product Label to Match China and Nordic for (GS) ?

2024-04-10 Thread Rick Linford 
Dear EMC-PSTC Pros,



Specific to ITE IEC 62368-1 type standards and German GS certification.
(many power supplies and ITE product carry GS mark)

Is German language required on products to match the text of other
countries requirement to obtain German GS?

And (not or) add a statement that non-German text is not important to
Germany?



China elevation and humidity waring is written into law and is very clear.
Is there an equivalent German law and or specific German text?

仅适用于海拔2000米以下地区安全使用

仅适用于在非热带气候条件下安全使用



Nordic countries grounded plug warning, is specific to national differences
in IEC 62368-1. I cannot find German equivalent in IEC 62368-1:2014, is it
there?

Apparaten skall anslutas till jordat uttag.

Apparatet må tilkoples jordet stikkontakt.

Laite on liitettävä suojamaadoituskoskettimilla varustettuun pistorasiaan.



Standard does state to provide safety information and instruction in
language of use and there is German law it must be in German. This has been
the case for decades.



A recent GS certification was held up until compliance with adding text.
They are marking other countries requirements de facto German GS
requirement. Already aware German GS is not a legal requirement and there
many GS issuers. I would have expected PSTC to be lit up already, if this
was a requirement applied to every manufacturer of ITE and AV with GS.
Starts now, I guess.


I am representing myself. I am not asking for any past, current or future
employer.
Linford@IEEE

-

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