Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1
Thanks Ted for your comprehensive reply. As I said in my earlier replies if the IR measured touch temperatures are near the test limits then thermocouples should be used to provide a more accurate measurement. Regards Philip Sevenson Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows From: Ted Eckert<mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com> Sent: 22 September 2021 18:27 To: Philip Stevenson<mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1 Hi Philip, I would like to see progress towards the acceptance of infrared thermography for certification. However, I can see some potential issues. * I haven’t seen software for many IR cameras that does good data logging. I work on some products that have cyclical temperature changes. There are situations where I need to see a graph of touch temperature over time before I can make an assessment, particularly when I’m just trying to determine if temperatures have stabilized. * I don’t know how well IR thermography will work when there are different materials. I have a product that has metal, plastic, fabric and glass in close proximity. I believe that the variety of materials might increase the uncertainty of measurement for an IR camera. This isn’t an issue if taken into account, but it might be a challenge where touch temperatures are close to the limit. * It’s becoming more common to find IR camera calibration services, but “more common” doesn’t mean cheap or easy. I think the technology has reached a point where IR cameras could be used for testing, but I would want to see internationally accepted procedures before I would consider it. I’m sure that there are experts in the field who could help. I use IR cameras to find hot spots for my testing, and they have been invaluable, particularly where the hottest points change depending on the mode of operation. Ted Eckert The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: Philip Stevenson Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 10:02 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1 Thank Rich for your reply. That is my view as well. I use thermocouples for temperature rise measurements. Regards Philip Stevenson Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows From: Richard Nute<mailto:ri...@ieee.org> Sent: 22 September 2021 17:57 To: 'Philip Stevenson'<mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: RE: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1 Hi Phillip: As far as I know, 62368-1 does not specify the method for measuring touch temperatures. Be aware that certification houses usually measure touch (and all other) temperatures with a thermocouple. Stay safe, and best regards, Rich From: Philip Stevenson mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 7:42 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1 Dear List Members I am looking for advice of whether the use of an Infra Red (IR) Digital Thermometer is suitable for performing Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1. Provided that factors for the different surface materials are applied to the temperature measurements? If you prefer to reply to me directly instead of vis the listing please do so at pw...@hotmail.co.uk<mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>. Thanks in advance for your help. Regards Philip Stevenson - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C45cecf94beab4865931e08d97deac6b0%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637679270106628527%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000=nb9CkoRt6Oo13wV1V4rWq3JhC0iz0Yi2bld9cD3mEYI%3D=0> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C45cecf94beab4865931e08d97
Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1
Hi Philip, I would like to see progress towards the acceptance of infrared thermography for certification. However, I can see some potential issues. * I haven't seen software for many IR cameras that does good data logging. I work on some products that have cyclical temperature changes. There are situations where I need to see a graph of touch temperature over time before I can make an assessment, particularly when I'm just trying to determine if temperatures have stabilized. * I don't know how well IR thermography will work when there are different materials. I have a product that has metal, plastic, fabric and glass in close proximity. I believe that the variety of materials might increase the uncertainty of measurement for an IR camera. This isn't an issue if taken into account, but it might be a challenge where touch temperatures are close to the limit. * It's becoming more common to find IR camera calibration services, but "more common" doesn't mean cheap or easy. I think the technology has reached a point where IR cameras could be used for testing, but I would want to see internationally accepted procedures before I would consider it. I'm sure that there are experts in the field who could help. I use IR cameras to find hot spots for my testing, and they have been invaluable, particularly where the hottest points change depending on the mode of operation. Ted Eckert The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: Philip Stevenson Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 10:02 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1 Thank Rich for your reply. That is my view as well. I use thermocouples for temperature rise measurements. Regards Philip Stevenson Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows From: Richard Nute<mailto:ri...@ieee.org> Sent: 22 September 2021 17:57 To: 'Philip Stevenson'<mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: RE: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1 Hi Phillip: As far as I know, 62368-1 does not specify the method for measuring touch temperatures. Be aware that certification houses usually measure touch (and all other) temperatures with a thermocouple. Stay safe, and best regards, Rich From: Philip Stevenson mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 7:42 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: [PSES] Suitable Test equipment for Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1 Dear List Members I am looking for advice of whether the use of an Infra Red (IR) Digital Thermometer is suitable for performing Touch temperature Testing in accordance with EN 62368-1. Provided that factors for the different surface materials are applied to the temperature measurements? If you prefer to reply to me directly instead of vis the listing please do so at pw...@hotmail.co.uk<mailto:pw...@hotmail.co.uk>. Thanks in advance for your help. Regards Philip Stevenson - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C45cecf94beab4865931e08d97deac6b0%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637679270106628527%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000=nb9CkoRt6Oo13wV1V4rWq3JhC0iz0Yi2bld9cD3mEYI%3D=0> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C45cecf94beab4865931e08d97deac6b0%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637679270106638521%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000=bzH07fMrbqImLweF%2Fmg4kHzA53jXC52S9QAy%2BEfxayg%3D=0> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C45cecf94beab4865931e08d97deac6b0%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637679270106648510%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000=yhIp8qClLfpoZG%2FMcluIhibE9
