Re: [PSES] Alternative coupling for Surge Test - Higher current products
Andre, The standard 61000-4-5: 2006 says that decoupling networks are required to provide sufficient decoupling impedance to the surge wave so that the specified wave may be applied on the lines under test. With this alternative test method, I don't think you can say that you are decoupling the surge wave from the ac mains as intended by the standard. I think you have legitimate doubts on the alternative method. The alternative method certainly applies a surge to the product, but I think you would have a difficult time arguing that you have tested according to the standard. There are CDNs on the market. My lab has a 100A CDN. Jim James L. Knighten, Ph.D. [cid:image001.png@01D48C81.281C2530] 17095 Via Del Campo San Diego, CA 92127 858-485-2537 From: Andre Gomes Videira Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2018 2:10 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Alternative coupling for Surge Test - Higher current products [External Email] Dear all, We have some products with a current higher than the Surge test CDN from many labs in our region can withstand. So, we found a lab that does an alternate Surge test. Instead of connecting the product to the CDN, they connect it directly to the power supply. In the output of the CDN, in each phase, a 10uF capacitor is placed, and it goes directly to the product power supply. This way, the current does not go through the CDN, and the Surge noise couples directly to the product. We have some doubts on this method, since: 1. It changes the output CDN surge impedance, what can lead to some changes in the noise waveform 2. Since I am coupling directly to the supply, the noise voltage could be divided by going to the product and to the supply in parallel What are your thoughts on this? Is this a valid test method? Thank you all. Best regards, André Gomes Videira Laboratório de Ensaios e Certificações Telefone: + 55 47 3276-7613 | Skype: agvideira WEG Drives & Controls - Automação Ltda. www.weg.net Clique aqui <http://disclaimer.weg.net/> caso você não seja o destinatário deste email, ou desejar conhecer nossa política de privacidade. Click here <http://disclaimer.weg.net/> if you are not the intended recipient, or in case you want to know our privacy policy. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] RES: [Possible SPAM] Re: [PSES] Alternative coupling for Surge Test - Higher current products
Look at hiring? Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2018-12-05 11:18, Andre Gomes Videira wrote: Dear Sato, Thank you. Yes, the standard suggests a method for currents over 200A. However, we are speaking of a current of about 70A, in which the lab does not have a CDN. André Gomes Videira Laboratório de Ensaios e Certificações Telefone: + 55 47 3276-7613 | Skype: agvideira WEG Drives & Controls - Automação Ltda. www.weg.net - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] RES: [Possible SPAM] Re: [PSES] Alternative coupling for Surge Test - Higher current products
Dear Sato, Thank you. Yes, the standard suggests a method for currents over 200A. However, we are speaking of a current of about 70A, in which the lab does not have a CDN. André Gomes Videira Laboratório de Ensaios e Certificações Telefone: + 55 47 3276-7613 | Skype: agvideira WEG Drives & Controls - Automação Ltda. www.weg.net -Mensagem original- De: T.Sato [mailto:vef00...@nifty.com] Enviada em: quarta-feira, 5 de dezembro de 2018 08:27 Para: Andre Gomes Videira Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Assunto: [Possible SPAM] Re: [PSES] Alternative coupling for Surge Test - Higher current products Prioridade: Baixa On Wed, 5 Dec 2018 10:10:22 +, Andre Gomes Videira wrote: > We have some products with a current higher than the Surge test CDN from many > labs in our region can withstand. > So, we found a lab that does an alternate Surge test. > > Instead of connecting the product to the CDN, they connect it directly to the > power supply. > In the output of the CDN, in each phase, a 10uF capacitor is placed, and it > goes directly to the product power supply. > This way, the current does not go through the CDN, and the Surge noise > couples directly to the product. > > We have some doubts on this method, since: > > 1) It changes the output CDN surge impedance, what can lead to some > changes in the noise waveform > > 2) Since I am coupling directly to the supply, the noise voltage could > be divided by going to the product and to the supply in parallel > > What are your thoughts on this? Is this a valid test method? FYI, IEC 61000-4-5:2014 Annex H (informative), "Coupling/decoupling surges to lines rated above 200 A", suggests an alternative method which use a long supply cable as the decoupling network. Regards, Tom -- Tomonori Sato URL: http://t-sato.in.coocan.jp Clique http://disclaimer.weg.net/; target=_blank>aqui caso voc no seja o destinatrio deste email, ou desejar conhecer nossa poltica de privacidade. Click http://disclaimer.weg.net/; target=_blank>here if you are not the intended recipient, or in case you want to know our privacy policy. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Alternative coupling for Surge Test - Higher current products
On Wed, 5 Dec 2018 10:10:22 +, Andre Gomes Videira wrote: > We have some products with a current higher than the Surge test CDN from many > labs in our region can withstand. > So, we found a lab that does an alternate Surge test. > > Instead of connecting the product to the CDN, they connect it directly to the > power supply. > In the output of the CDN, in each phase, a 10uF capacitor is placed, and it > goes directly to the product power supply. > This way, the current does not go through the CDN, and the Surge noise > couples directly to the product. > > We have some doubts on this method, since: > > 1) It changes the output CDN surge impedance, what can lead to some > changes in the noise waveform > > 2) Since I am coupling directly to the supply, the noise voltage could > be divided by going to the product and to the supply in parallel > > What are your thoughts on this? Is this a valid test method? FYI, IEC 61000-4-5:2014 Annex H (informative), "Coupling/decoupling surges to lines rated above 200 A", suggests an alternative method which use a long supply cable as the decoupling network. Regards, Tom -- Tomonori Sato URL: http://t-sato.in.coocan.jp - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] Alternative coupling for Surge Test - Higher current products
Dear all, We have some products with a current higher than the Surge test CDN from many labs in our region can withstand. So, we found a lab that does an alternate Surge test. Instead of connecting the product to the CDN, they connect it directly to the power supply. In the output of the CDN, in each phase, a 10uF capacitor is placed, and it goes directly to the product power supply. This way, the current does not go through the CDN, and the Surge noise couples directly to the product. We have some doubts on this method, since: 1) It changes the output CDN surge impedance, what can lead to some changes in the noise waveform 2) Since I am coupling directly to the supply, the noise voltage could be divided by going to the product and to the supply in parallel What are your thoughts on this? Is this a valid test method? Thank you all. Best regards, André Gomes Videira Laboratório de Ensaios e Certificações Telefone: + 55 47 3276-7613 | Skype: agvideira WEG Drives & Controls - Automação Ltda. www.weg.net Clique http://disclaimer.weg.net/; target=_blank>aqui caso voc no seja o destinatrio deste email, ou desejar conhecer nossa poltica de privacidade. Click http://disclaimer.weg.net/; target=_blank>here if you are not the intended recipient, or in case you want to know our privacy policy. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
