Re: [PSES] Ambient temperature

[Peter Tarver]

Date sent:  Wed, 2 Mar 2016 15:55:06 -0800
Send reply to:  ri...@ieee.org
> I've used a 5-sided cube inside the chamber to create a
> draft-free environment for performing flammability tests.


> Rich

This technique works well for heating tests on lab 
benches as well and quickens thermal equilibrium. Open 
face of the cube toward the benchtop. Especially nice 
in drafty or heavily air conditioned areas.

Peter Tarver

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Re: [PSES] Ambient temperature

[Richard Nute]

I've used a 5-sided cube inside the chamber to create a draft-free environment 
for performing flammability tests.  The open side faces the front so you can 
see the equipment.  The test flame is quite still.  I would believe this would 
also work for temperature measurements.


Rich





> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Tarver
> [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 1:21 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Ambient temperature
> 
> Alternatively, assuming the typical wire rack shelving in the
> chamber and
> a relatively small EUT, free air flow can be limited by
> placing three wire
> rack shelves onto adjacent levels that are out of the main air
> circulation
> pattern in the chamber and placing pieces of cardboard or
> corrugated
> fiberboard onto the two outer shelves, with the EUT on the
> center of the
> middle shelf. Place a thermocouple 25mm to 50 mm above
> the EUT to provide
> an ambient temperature measurement.
> 
> Never rely on the environmental chamber's controls or
> internal
> thermocouples for internal ambient air temperature
> measurement. They will
> rarely give the temperature at the location the EUT is placed.
> 
> If the EUT is large the environmental chamber needs to be
> much larger than
> the EUT, as indicated by others.
> 
> 
> Peter Tarver
> 

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Re: [PSES] Ambient temperature

[Pete Perkins]

Scott, et al,

From your comment & Brian's analysis, which makes sense, you should
now add a test corner (as best you can fit one in) inside the temperature
chamber to copy the conditions that are normally used outside the chamber.
Then the results obtained are the proper, comparable results since you have
duplicated the usual test conditions in your temperature controlled
environment.  

:>) br, Pete
 
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427
 
503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.org
 
_ _ _ _ _

Brian,

I also suspect the forced air circulation may help the heat dissipation.
This variation will affect the result.  When we conduct temperature rise at
room temperature, we will place the sample inside the test corner and block
the airflow directly from the top to the sample.  It seems when we use
temperature chamber for other ambient temperature, the repeatability is
quite challenge.

Regards,

Scott

> On 2 Mar, 2016, at 10:10 pm, Kunde, Brian <brian_ku...@lecotc.com> wrote:
> 
> How windy is it inside your chamber? Ours has large fans to circulate the
air. Air moving across the surface of your EUT will pull the heat out lowing
the external measurements. I really don't know how to get around this other
than to turn off the fans to let the air go stagnant around the EUT. This
would be worst case.
> 
> For fun, when you are doing thermals outside a chamber, once your external
temps stabilize, turn on a fan and blow it at your EUT. The moving air will
cause the external temps to drop.  The EUT heats up the air around itself
cause a higher reading on external temps. If you blow away this warm air the
external reading will lower.
> 
> The Other Brian
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 8:37 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Ambient temperature
> 
> We would like to verify the temperature rise at 40 degC ambient
temperature.  The sample under test was placed in a temperature chamber set
at 40 degC.  The internal temperatures were close but the external
temperatures were marked different and even lower than the room temperature
without using temperature chamber.  Is there any standard method to create
ambient temperature to have a repeatable testing conditions?
> 
> Thanks and regards,
> 
> Scott
> 
> -
> 
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by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
> 
> -
> 
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> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discus

Re: [PSES] Ambient temperature

[Peter Tarver]

Alternatively, assuming the typical wire rack shelving in the chamber and
a relatively small EUT, free air flow can be limited by placing three wire
rack shelves onto adjacent levels that are out of the main air circulation
pattern in the chamber and placing pieces of cardboard or corrugated
fiberboard onto the two outer shelves, with the EUT on the center of the
middle shelf. Place a thermocouple 25mm to 50 mm above the EUT to provide
an ambient temperature measurement.

Never rely on the environmental chamber's controls or internal
thermocouples for internal ambient air temperature measurement. They will
rarely give the temperature at the location the EUT is placed.

If the EUT is large the environmental chamber needs to be much larger than
the EUT, as indicated by others.


Peter Tarver

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Re: [PSES] Ambient temperature

[B Rowland]

Scott;

Since I am not sure about what, exactly, you are testing, I'll just make a 
couple of 'open' comments.

If you need a surface temperature of 40ºC on your DUT, then you should use a 
fan, inside your temp chamber, to achieve, as much as possible, an isothermal 
environment, which will, in the end, give a 40ºC surface temperature on your DUT

Conversely, if you need to test your DUT, which depends on convection flow for 
cooling, you can use a fan to achieve the isothermal state inside the chamber, 
and then turn the fan off to allow convective flow… there is always a problem 
with stratification, or with convective air currents, in the chamber, during 
the test.

For convection cooling conditions, the chamber must be quite large, relative to 
the DUT, to enable 'free air' conditions.

All for now,

Barry Rowland
München


On  02/03/2016, at 16:09 PM, Doug Nix <d...@ieee.org> wrote:

> All,
> 
> The idea that "moving air is cooling air” is incorrect. This is only true if 
> there is a temperature difference between the airstream and the hot object. 
> If the the air stream and the object are at the same temperature, no cooling 
> will occur. If the airstream is hotter than the object, then heating will 
> occur.
> 
> Doug Nix
> 
>> On 2-Mar-16, at 10:06, Scott Xe <scott...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Brian,
>> 
>> I also suspect the forced air circulation may help the heat dissipation.  
>> This variation will affect the result.  When we conduct temperature rise at 
>> room temperature, we will place the sample inside the test corner and block 
>> the airflow directly from the top to the sample.  It seems when we use 
>> temperature chamber for other ambient temperature, the repeatability is 
>> quite challenge.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Scott
>> 
>>> On 2 Mar, 2016, at 10:10 pm, Kunde, Brian <brian_ku...@lecotc.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> How windy is it inside your chamber? Ours has large fans to circulate the 
>>> air. Air moving across the surface of your EUT will pull the heat out 
>>> lowing the external measurements. I really don't know how to get around 
>>> this other than to turn off the fans to let the air go stagnant around the 
>>> EUT. This would be worst case.
>>> 
>>> For fun, when you are doing thermals outside a chamber, once your external 
>>> temps stabilize, turn on a fan and blow it at your EUT. The moving air will 
>>> cause the external temps to drop.  The EUT heats up the air around itself 
>>> cause a higher reading on external temps. If you blow away this warm air 
>>> the external reading will lower.
>>> 
>>> The Other Brian
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 8:37 AM
>>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>> Subject: [PSES] Ambient temperature
>>> 
>>> We would like to verify the temperature rise at 40 degC ambient 
>>> temperature.  The sample under test was placed in a temperature chamber set 
>>> at 40 degC.  The internal temperatures were close but the external 
>>> temperatures were marked different and even lower than the room temperature 
>>> without using temperature chamber.  Is there any standard method to create 
>>> ambient temperature to have a repeatable testing conditions?
>>> 
>>> Thanks and regards,
>>> 
>>> Scott
>>> 
>>> -
>>> 
>>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
>>> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>>> <emc-p...@ieee.org>
>>> 
>>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>>> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>>> 
>>> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
>>> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in 
>>> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>>> 
>>> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>>> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
>>> unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>>> 
>>> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>>> Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org>
>>> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org>
>>> 
>>> For policy questions, send mail to:
>>> Jim Bacher:  <j.bac...@ieee.org>
>>> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>
>>

Re: [PSES] Ambient temperature

[Elliott Martinson]

Similarly (probably obvious), if the external temperature is higher than the 
EUT, when the air is stagnant, you end up with a layer of cooler air around the 
EUT. Increasing the flow of (hotter) air will remove this layer of cooler air 
and raise the external temperature.

-Elliott

-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 8:11 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Ambient temperature

How windy is it inside your chamber? Ours has large fans to circulate the air. 
Air moving across the surface of your EUT will pull the heat out lowing the 
external measurements. I really don't know how to get around this other than to 
turn off the fans to let the air go stagnant around the EUT. This would be 
worst case.

For fun, when you are doing thermals outside a chamber, once your external 
temps stabilize, turn on a fan and blow it at your EUT. The moving air will 
cause the external temps to drop.  The EUT heats up the air around itself cause 
a higher reading on external temps. If you blow away this warm air the external 
reading will lower.

The Other Brian

-Original Message-
From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 8:37 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Ambient temperature

We would like to verify the temperature rise at 40 degC ambient temperature.  
The sample under test was placed in a temperature chamber set at 40 degC.  The 
internal temperatures were close but the external temperatures were marked 
different and even lower than the room temperature without using temperature 
chamber.  Is there any standard method to create ambient temperature to have a 
repeatable testing conditions?

Thanks and regards,

Scott

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Re: [PSES] Ambient temperature

[Doug Nix]

All,

The idea that "moving air is cooling air” is incorrect. This is only true if 
there is a temperature difference between the airstream and the hot object. If 
the the air stream and the object are at the same temperature, no cooling will 
occur. If the airstream is hotter than the object, then heating will occur.

Doug Nix

> On 2-Mar-16, at 10:06, Scott Xe <scott...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Brian,
> 
> I also suspect the forced air circulation may help the heat dissipation.  
> This variation will affect the result.  When we conduct temperature rise at 
> room temperature, we will place the sample inside the test corner and block 
> the airflow directly from the top to the sample.  It seems when we use 
> temperature chamber for other ambient temperature, the repeatability is quite 
> challenge.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Scott
> 
>> On 2 Mar, 2016, at 10:10 pm, Kunde, Brian <brian_ku...@lecotc.com> wrote:
>> 
>> How windy is it inside your chamber? Ours has large fans to circulate the 
>> air. Air moving across the surface of your EUT will pull the heat out lowing 
>> the external measurements. I really don't know how to get around this other 
>> than to turn off the fans to let the air go stagnant around the EUT. This 
>> would be worst case.
>> 
>> For fun, when you are doing thermals outside a chamber, once your external 
>> temps stabilize, turn on a fan and blow it at your EUT. The moving air will 
>> cause the external temps to drop.  The EUT heats up the air around itself 
>> cause a higher reading on external temps. If you blow away this warm air the 
>> external reading will lower.
>> 
>> The Other Brian
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 8:37 AM
>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> Subject: [PSES] Ambient temperature
>> 
>> We would like to verify the temperature rise at 40 degC ambient temperature. 
>>  The sample under test was placed in a temperature chamber set at 40 degC.  
>> The internal temperatures were close but the external temperatures were 
>> marked different and even lower than the room temperature without using 
>> temperature chamber.  Is there any standard method to create ambient 
>> temperature to have a repeatable testing conditions?
>> 
>> Thanks and regards,
>> 
>> Scott
>> 
>> -
>> 
>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
>> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>> <emc-p...@ieee.org>
>> 
>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>> 
>> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
>> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in 
>> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>> 
>> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
>> unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>> 
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>> Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org>
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>> 
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>> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>
>> 
>> 
>> LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
>> information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this 
>> by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
>> 
>> -
>> 
>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
>> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>> <emc-p...@ieee.org>
>> 
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>> well-used formats), large files, etc.
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Re: [PSES] Ambient temperature

[Scott Xe]

Brian,

I also suspect the forced air circulation may help the heat dissipation.  This 
variation will affect the result.  When we conduct temperature rise at room 
temperature, we will place the sample inside the test corner and block the 
airflow directly from the top to the sample.  It seems when we use temperature 
chamber for other ambient temperature, the repeatability is quite challenge.

Regards,

Scott

> On 2 Mar, 2016, at 10:10 pm, Kunde, Brian <brian_ku...@lecotc.com> wrote:
> 
> How windy is it inside your chamber? Ours has large fans to circulate the 
> air. Air moving across the surface of your EUT will pull the heat out lowing 
> the external measurements. I really don't know how to get around this other 
> than to turn off the fans to let the air go stagnant around the EUT. This 
> would be worst case.
> 
> For fun, when you are doing thermals outside a chamber, once your external 
> temps stabilize, turn on a fan and blow it at your EUT. The moving air will 
> cause the external temps to drop.  The EUT heats up the air around itself 
> cause a higher reading on external temps. If you blow away this warm air the 
> external reading will lower.
> 
> The Other Brian
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 8:37 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Ambient temperature
> 
> We would like to verify the temperature rise at 40 degC ambient temperature.  
> The sample under test was placed in a temperature chamber set at 40 degC.  
> The internal temperatures were close but the external temperatures were 
> marked different and even lower than the room temperature without using 
> temperature chamber.  Is there any standard method to create ambient 
> temperature to have a repeatable testing conditions?
> 
> Thanks and regards,
> 
> Scott
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> <emc-p...@ieee.org>
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> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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> formats), large files, etc.
> 
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> 
> 
> LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
> information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
> mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
> 
> -
> 
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> <emc-p...@ieee.org>
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> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Re: [PSES] Ambient temperature

[Kunde, Brian]

How windy is it inside your chamber? Ours has large fans to circulate the air. 
Air moving across the surface of your EUT will pull the heat out lowing the 
external measurements. I really don't know how to get around this other than to 
turn off the fans to let the air go stagnant around the EUT. This would be 
worst case.

For fun, when you are doing thermals outside a chamber, once your external 
temps stabilize, turn on a fan and blow it at your EUT. The moving air will 
cause the external temps to drop.  The EUT heats up the air around itself cause 
a higher reading on external temps. If you blow away this warm air the external 
reading will lower.

The Other Brian

-Original Message-
From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 8:37 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Ambient temperature

We would like to verify the temperature rise at 40 degC ambient temperature.  
The sample under test was placed in a temperature chamber set at 40 degC.  The 
internal temperatures were close but the external temperatures were marked 
different and even lower than the room temperature without using temperature 
chamber.  Is there any standard method to create ambient temperature to have a 
repeatable testing conditions?

Thanks and regards,

Scott

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[PSES] Ambient temperature

[Scott Xe]

We would like to verify the temperature rise at 40 degC ambient temperature.  
The sample under test was placed in a temperature chamber set at 40 degC.  The 
internal temperatures were close but the external temperatures were marked 
different and even lower than the room temperature without using temperature 
chamber.  Is there any standard method to create ambient temperature to have a 
repeatable testing conditions?

Thanks and regards,

Scott

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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