Re: [PSES] Carbon Monoxide - Death Value

[ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen]

Ted, (and all other safety friends)

IMHO older cars detoriating to the level of CO coming in, will also let the 
driving wind
leak in to an amount  that CO is not a real problem anymore. ;<))

Highest risk is where ventilation is modified to recirculating, (to prevent 
pollution coming in (!!) or to boost the airco) and a small leak -whatever the 
reason- of CO happens. 

I think we should not interfere with intentional poisoning ; candidates might 
otherwise choose much dangerous alternatives to CO (dangerous to others of 
course !).

Current common CO detectors for home use  need replacement every 7 years, so 
the risk that a detector does not detect what it is intended for is not 
imaginary.

Maybe you US citizen can get Trump to write a presidential Order to stop CO ? 
And the Europeans might create a CO-directive ?


Regards,

Ing. Gert Gremmen
Approvals manager



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-Original Message-
From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Thursday 16 February 2017 21:49
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Carbon Monoxide - Death Value

I see two problems with the proposed alarm system.

First, the most common reason for accidental carbon monoxide intrusion into the 
passenger compartment is poor maintenance on an older vehicle. The exhaust 
system needs to be compromised somewhere under the vehicle and there typically 
need to be holes in the floor boards letting the carbon monoxide enter. Rust is 
the most common culprit, but it can also be other types of damage. If a car has 
been allowed to deteriorate to this point, would a carbon monoxide alarm system 
still be functioning properly? The sensors would likely need regular 
maintenance or replacement. It seems possible that many of the detection 
systems would no longer be operating properly by the time a vehicle is old 
enough for the risk to have increased.

Second, the number of vehicles on the road is high enough that even a small 
number of false-positives would completely outweigh the number of real alarms. 
There are 300,000,000 vehicles in the United States. If only 0.01% experience a 
false failure, that is still 30,000 false failures. What happens if a driver is 
going down the highway when the alarm goes off? It wouldn't take many drivers 
panicking before accidental deaths due to reactions to false failures exceeded 
the number of potential lives saved from real alarms. Even if the system just 
automatically rolls down a window, some drivers may not recognize that this is 
the alarm response. They may become fixated on trying to get the window to 
close again without noticing that traffic ahead of them has stopped. 

In some locations in the United States, there is a mandatory safety inspection 
to renew your car's registration. I'm not stating one way or another whether 
this is a good option. However, these inspections do look for exhaust leaks, 
faulty brakes and other safety issues. I lived in Missouri for 20 years and I 
found the inspections to be a hassle. At the time, I saw a lot of cars on the 
road that didn't look safe to me and I thought that the inspections were 
probably ineffective. I moved to Washington 9 years ago and I quickly learned I 
was mistaken. In Washington, I am amazed by the number of cars I see on the 
road with faulty headlights, broken taillights and even no brake lights. Those 
are just the visible safety issues. I can't tell how many have faulty exhaust 
systems that leak carbon monoxide into the passenger cabin.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:07 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES]

Re: [PSES] Carbon Monoxide - Death Value

[IBM Ken]

Hi Bob;
In perspective (40,000 Americans died on the road in crashes last year) it
sounds like engineering efforts might be better spent making vehicular
traffic safer.

Driving while interacting with technology seems to be an increasing problem
that could be addressed with some effort (and legislation; only because
allowing personal choice does not seem to be working).

-Ken

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Robert Johnson 
wrote:

> Ken,
>
> If the horn is continuously blowing in triplets, it is likely to prevent
> even intentional CO poisoning.
>
> There is no need to disable the car and risk traffic dangers. Time is not
> crucial, just blowing the horn is enough and may notify people at a
> distance like in a house.
>
> The numbers could use some fine tuning but close enough to make a point.
> For example the average CO deaths (439) are from 1999-2004 (Public Health
> Rep.  2012
> Sep-Oct;127(5):486-96) and percentage from automobiles 21-69% (Public
> Health Rep.  2011
> Mar-Apr;126(2):240-50). Maybe vehicle count should include trucks. I
> suspect manufacturers could make a dashboard mod for under $1.
>
> This really is introducing three questions:
> Should vehicles (or heating systems) have built in CO detectors?
> At what value/death should we introduce safety measures?
> Do we require such measures by law?
> Bob Johnson
>
>
> On 02/16/2017 02:38 PM, IBM Ken wrote:
>
> Hi Bob- do you know what percentage of the 300 are accidental vs
> intentional?
>
> Maybe instead of just alerting, the car should shut down upon reaching
> some measured CO limit.
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 2:29 PM, Robert Johnson 
> wrote:
>
>> In the US we sell about 15 million cars/yr and have about 300 deaths/yr
>> from automotive carbon monoxide. Since DC power is available, the horn is
>> available, packaging is not needed, installation can be integrated in the
>> auto manufacturing, I estimate an auto CO detector would cost below
>> $10/car, about what a household one does.
>>
>> It would cost $500,000/death to install CO detectors in cars. Is this a
>> reasonable expenditure to mandate?
>>
>> Bob Johnson
>> -
>> 
>>
>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
>> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>> emc-p...@ieee.org
>>
>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>>
>> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site
>> at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
>> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>>
>> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
>> unsubscribe) 
>> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>>
>> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>> Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org
>> Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org
>>
>> For policy questions, send mail to:
>> Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org
>> David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
>>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
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>
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>
> --
> The PDP-11 is 45 years old.
>
>

-

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For 

Re: [PSES] Carbon Monoxide - Death Value

[Ted Eckert]

I see two problems with the proposed alarm system.

First, the most common reason for accidental carbon monoxide intrusion into the 
passenger compartment is poor maintenance on an older vehicle. The exhaust 
system needs to be compromised somewhere under the vehicle and there typically 
need to be holes in the floor boards letting the carbon monoxide enter. Rust is 
the most common culprit, but it can also be other types of damage. If a car has 
been allowed to deteriorate to this point, would a carbon monoxide alarm system 
still be functioning properly? The sensors would likely need regular 
maintenance or replacement. It seems possible that many of the detection 
systems would no longer be operating properly by the time a vehicle is old 
enough for the risk to have increased.

Second, the number of vehicles on the road is high enough that even a small 
number of false-positives would completely outweigh the number of real alarms. 
There are 300,000,000 vehicles in the United States. If only 0.01% experience a 
false failure, that is still 30,000 false failures. What happens if a driver is 
going down the highway when the alarm goes off? It wouldn't take many drivers 
panicking before accidental deaths due to reactions to false failures exceeded 
the number of potential lives saved from real alarms. Even if the system just 
automatically rolls down a window, some drivers may not recognize that this is 
the alarm response. They may become fixated on trying to get the window to 
close again without noticing that traffic ahead of them has stopped. 

In some locations in the United States, there is a mandatory safety inspection 
to renew your car's registration. I'm not stating one way or another whether 
this is a good option. However, these inspections do look for exhaust leaks, 
faulty brakes and other safety issues. I lived in Missouri for 20 years and I 
found the inspections to be a hassle. At the time, I saw a lot of cars on the 
road that didn't look safe to me and I thought that the inspections were 
probably ineffective. I moved to Washington 9 years ago and I quickly learned I 
was mistaken. In Washington, I am amazed by the number of cars I see on the 
road with faulty headlights, broken taillights and even no brake lights. Those 
are just the visible safety issues. I can't tell how many have faulty exhaust 
systems that leak carbon monoxide into the passenger cabin.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:07 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Carbon Monoxide - Death Value

Autonomously-controlled windows could be a significant hazard for some of the 
‘normal’ operating conditions per NHTSA.

A guestimate based on two previous submittals to VCA and other such bodies 
exceeds $80 USD per vehicle.

Brian


From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:50 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Carbon Monoxide - Death Value

Shutting down automatically while driving would not be good.  Just lower all 
the windows automatically.

From: IBM Ken [mailto:ibm...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:38 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Carbon Monoxide - Death Value

Hi Bob- do you know what percentage of the 300 are accidental vs intentional?   

Maybe instead of just alerting, the car should shut down upon reaching some 
measured CO limit.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 2:29 PM, Robert Johnson <john...@itesafety.com> wrote:
In the US we sell about 15 million cars/yr and have about 300 deaths/yr from 
automotive carbon monoxide. Since DC power is available, the horn is available, 
packaging is not needed, installation can be integrated in the auto 
manufacturing, I estimate an auto CO detector would cost below $10/car, about 
what a household one does. 
It would cost $500,000/death to install CO detectors in cars. Is this a 
reasonable expenditure to mandate?
Bob Johnson

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org>

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Fo

Re: [PSES] Carbon Monoxide - Death Value

[IBM Ken]

I would think very few of the 300 deaths claimed would be while the car is
in motion.  The system could be disabled when the vehicle is moving.
Further to my point, someone attempting to commit suicide by car in a
garage already has all the windows lowered.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 2:49 PM, Nyffenegger, Dave <
dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com> wrote:

> Shutting down automatically while driving would not be good.  Just lower
> all the windows automatically.
>
>
>
> *From:* IBM Ken [mailto:ibm...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:38 PM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Carbon Monoxide - Death Value
>
>
>
> Hi Bob- do you know what percentage of the 300 are accidental vs
> intentional?
>
>
>
> Maybe instead of just alerting, the car should shut down upon reaching
> some measured CO limit.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 2:29 PM, Robert Johnson <john...@itesafety.com>
> wrote:
>
> In the US we sell about 15 million cars/yr and have about 300 deaths/yr
> from automotive carbon monoxide. Since DC power is available, the horn is
> available, packaging is not needed, installation can be integrated in the
> auto manufacturing, I estimate an auto CO detector would cost below
> $10/car, about what a household one does.
>
> It would cost $500,000/death to install CO detectors in cars. Is this a
> reasonable expenditure to mandate?
>
> Bob Johnson
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> emc-p...@ieee.org
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org
> Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org
> David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
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>
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> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com>
>

-

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Re: [PSES] Carbon Monoxide - Death Value

[Brian O'Connell]

Autonomously-controlled windows could be a significant hazard for some of the 
‘normal’ operating conditions per NHTSA.

A guestimate based on two previous submittals to VCA and other such bodies 
exceeds $80 USD per vehicle.

Brian


From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:50 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Carbon Monoxide - Death Value

Shutting down automatically while driving would not be good.  Just lower all 
the windows automatically.

From: IBM Ken [mailto:ibm...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:38 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Carbon Monoxide - Death Value

Hi Bob- do you know what percentage of the 300 are accidental vs intentional?   

Maybe instead of just alerting, the car should shut down upon reaching some 
measured CO limit.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 2:29 PM, Robert Johnson <john...@itesafety.com> wrote:
In the US we sell about 15 million cars/yr and have about 300 deaths/yr from 
automotive carbon monoxide. Since DC power is available, the horn is available, 
packaging is not needed, installation can be integrated in the auto 
manufacturing, I estimate an auto CO detector would cost below $10/car, about 
what a household one does. 
It would cost $500,000/death to install CO detectors in cars. Is this a 
reasonable expenditure to mandate?
Bob Johnson

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

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David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>

Re: [PSES] Carbon Monoxide - Death Value

[Robert Johnson]

Ken,

If the horn is continuously blowing in triplets, it is likely to prevent 
even intentional CO poisoning.


There is no need to disable the car and risk traffic dangers. Time is 
not crucial, just blowing the horn is enough and may notify people at a 
distance like in a house.


The numbers could use some fine tuning but close enough to make a point. 
For example the average CO deaths (439) are from 1999-2004 (Public 
Health Rep.  2012 
Sep-Oct;127(5):486-96) and percentage from automobiles 21-69% (Public 
Health Rep.  2011 
Mar-Apr;126(2):240-50). Maybe vehicle count should include trucks. I 
suspect manufacturers could make a dashboard mod for under $1.


This really is introducing three questions:
Should vehicles (or heating systems) have built in CO detectors?
At what value/death should we introduce safety measures?
Do we require such measures by law?

Bob Johnson

On 02/16/2017 02:38 PM, IBM Ken wrote:
Hi Bob- do you know what percentage of the 300 are accidental vs 
intentional?


Maybe instead of just alerting, the car should shut down upon reaching 
some measured CO limit.


On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 2:29 PM, Robert Johnson > wrote:


In the US we sell about 15 million cars/yr and have about 300
deaths/yr from automotive carbon monoxide. Since DC power is
available, the horn is available, packaging is not needed,
installation can be integrated in the auto manufacturing, I
estimate an auto CO detector would cost below $10/car, about what
a household one does.

It would cost $500,000/death to install CO detectors in cars. Is
this a reasonable expenditure to mandate?

Bob Johnson

-


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e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org 

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 can be used for graphics
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-


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--
The PDP-11 is 45 years old.


-

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Re: [PSES] Carbon Monoxide - Death Value

[John Woodgate]

Lowering all windows could distract the driver, especially in bad weather. 
Sound the horn and lower one window should be enough.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 7:50 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Carbon Monoxide - Death Value
 
Shutting down automatically while driving would not be good.  Just lower all 
the windows automatically.
 

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org>

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Re: [PSES] Carbon Monoxide - Death Value

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

Shutting down automatically while driving would not be good.  Just lower all 
the windows automatically.

From: IBM Ken [mailto:ibm...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:38 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Carbon Monoxide - Death Value

Hi Bob- do you know what percentage of the 300 are accidental vs intentional?

Maybe instead of just alerting, the car should shut down upon reaching some 
measured CO limit.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 2:29 PM, Robert Johnson 
<john...@itesafety.com<mailto:john...@itesafety.com>> wrote:

In the US we sell about 15 million cars/yr and have about 300 deaths/yr from 
automotive carbon monoxide. Since DC power is available, the horn is available, 
packaging is not needed, installation can be integrated in the auto 
manufacturing, I estimate an auto CO detector would cost below $10/car, about 
what a household one does.

It would cost $500,000/death to install CO detectors in cars. Is this a 
reasonable expenditure to mandate?

Bob Johnson
-


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Re: [PSES] Carbon Monoxide - Death Value

[IBM Ken]

Hi Bob- do you know what percentage of the 300 are accidental vs
intentional?

Maybe instead of just alerting, the car should shut down upon reaching some
measured CO limit.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 2:29 PM, Robert Johnson 
wrote:

> In the US we sell about 15 million cars/yr and have about 300 deaths/yr
> from automotive carbon monoxide. Since DC power is available, the horn is
> available, packaging is not needed, installation can be integrated in the
> auto manufacturing, I estimate an auto CO detector would cost below
> $10/car, about what a household one does.
>
> It would cost $500,000/death to install CO detectors in cars. Is this a
> reasonable expenditure to mandate?
>
> Bob Johnson
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> emc-p...@ieee.org
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org
> Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org
> David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
>

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[PSES] Carbon Monoxide - Death Value

[Robert Johnson]

In the US we sell about 15 million cars/yr and have about 300 deaths/yr 
from automotive carbon monoxide. Since DC power is available, the horn 
is available, packaging is not needed, installation can be integrated in 
the auto manufacturing, I estimate an auto CO detector would cost below 
$10/car, about what a household one does.


It would cost $500,000/death to install CO detectors in cars. Is this a 
reasonable expenditure to mandate?


Bob Johnson


-

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list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

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