Re: [PSES] Checklist for standards
Hello Rick, Ive often thought the same, Ive even considered doing it myself. My thoughts are, that for each harmonised standard requested, I would produce a questionnaire or flow chart that would be applied to the equipment under test in order to identify the relevant test clauses and conditions from the standard for that equipment. Complimented by a clause-by-clause check/tick list summary for that standard allowing you to tick/flag the relevant and applicable clauses/parameters/limits etc., those Not Applicable to that equipment along with columns to mark your progress; to do, pass, fail, references to results, test reports, comments, etc. All wrapped-up with a neat front sheet with the usual ducumentation control, title, document nos., dates, issue, version, signatures etc. Also, given that such a check-list would require careful review and maintenance when new versions of a particular standard are released, a complimentary service sharing the results of that standards review, identifying the differences between subsequent versions of standards could be provided. It amuses me how many times new versions of standards must be scrutinised and reviewed separately by organisations using those standards, when in theory it could just be done once independently for numerous organisations. Are such services available, otherwise would there be interest in providing such services? Feel free to contact me off-line if you prefer. T Sent:Monday, October 13, 2014 at 7:06 PM From:Rick Busche rick.bus...@qnergy.com To:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject:[PSES] Checklist for standards As I pour through the various standards applicable to my product and build the TCF leading to CE Marking, it seems to me that somewhere there should be a checklist of the respective standards to simplify this effort. I have heard that the IEEE may even have a paid service. The idea of typing my way through the applicable elements for the standards is arduously slow. Any suggestions appreciated. Rick - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Checklist for standards
Rick Anthony, I have attempted this myself. I always felt that one could ask questions regarding the product design and expected/foreseeable use. Then come up with a most appropriate standard to use and even better which clauses are or are not applicable. My purpose was to quickly do accurate estimations, quotes and eliminate those sections of a test report which are N/A. I started with a bottom up approach beginning with IEC 61010-1. I used questions like does it use batteries, is the enclosure metallic or polymer, is it have detachable power cord, is it portable, fixed, outdoor, indoor, limited energy, high voltage, does it have moving parts, pressurized fluids, acoustic noise, ultraviolet emissions, and so on. The question I had was, Is it possible to ask a minimum set of questions and come up with a reasonable estimate of work and schedule without a lot of risk? This method sort of works with most EMC testing but realize the list of potential tests for emissions and immunity are more or less the same each time and it is the limits that may change. Once my questionnaire was developed to a usable level, the next step would be to correlate this list of questions to other standards like IEC 60950-1, IEC 60335-1 or even IEC 60601-1. I had a few major problems... 1) It didn't take long to realize that because of the complexity of various product designs the list of questions is actually encapsulated within the IEC Test Report Form itself, all 100+ pages of it. 2) Applicable Part 2 particular standards need to be factored in. In my test case of IEC 61010-1, I started getting it things like does the measuring instrument have attached test probes or detachable (IEC 61010-2-31, 61010-2-32) or does it have a heating plate (IEC 61010-2-010). And the complexities kept coming. 3) Standards written by different Technical Committees will have different approaches to similar concerns. For example IEC 61010-1 simply talks about the concerns of a fixed or detachable cords whereas IEC 60335-1 has cord Types X, Y and Z. This is similar to other standards but also different in some ways that make this questionnaire difficult to manage. 4) As I was developing a framework of questions, wouldn't you know? A series of Edition 2 and 3 revisions came out and some were fairly significant differences. In the end it maintaining such a tool would become a full time job and any efficiency gains in project management would be lost. I determined that I would have to make a best guess based on my experience and hopefully a PDR (preliminary design review). This is after all, one of the things a compliance professional does best. Regards, Doug On 10/15/2014 3:35 AM, Anthony Thomson wrote: Hello Rick, I've often thought the same, I've even considered doing it myself. My thoughts are, that for each harmonised standard requested, I would produce a questionnaire or flow chart that would be applied to the equipment under test in order to identify the relevant test clauses and conditions from the standard for that equipment. Complimented by a clause-by-clause check/tick list summary for that standard allowing you to tick/flag the relevant and applicable clauses/parameters/limits etc., those Not Applicable to that equipment along with columns to mark your progress; 'to do', pass, fail, references to results, test reports, comments, etc. All wrapped-up with a neat front sheet with the usual ducumentation control, title, document nos., dates, issue, version, signatures etc. Also, given that such a check-list would require careful review and maintenance when new versions of a particular standard are released, a complimentary service sharing the results of that standard's review, identifying the differences between subsequent versions of standards could be provided. It amuses me how many times new versions of standards must be scrutinised and reviewed separately by organisations using those standards, when in theory it could just be done once independently for numerous organisations. Are such services available, otherwise would there be interest in providing such services? Feel free to contact me off-line if you prefer. T *Sent:* Monday, October 13, 2014 at 7:06 PM *From:* Rick Busche rick.bus...@qnergy.com *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG *Subject:* [PSES] Checklist for standards As I pour through the various standards applicable to my product and build the TCF leading to CE Marking, it seems to me that somewhere there should be a checklist of the respective standards to simplify this effort. I have heard that the IEEE may even have a paid service. The idea of typing my way through the applicable elements for the standards is arduously slow. Any suggestions appreciated. Rick - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message
[PSES] Checklist for standards
As I pour through the various standards applicable to my product and build the TCF leading to CE Marking, it seems to me that somewhere there should be a checklist of the respective standards to simplify this effort. I have heard that the IEEE may even have a paid service. The idea of typing my way through the applicable elements for the standards is arduously slow. Any suggestions appreciated. Rick - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Checklist for standards
In message 9b85ad5dba8e443ab9b11edc0a724...@blupr01mb147.prod.exchangelabs.com, dated Mon, 13 Oct 2014, Rick Busche rick.bus...@qnergy.com writes: As I pour through the various standards applicable to my product and build the TCF leading to CE Marking, it seems to me that somewhere there should be a checklist of the respective standards to simplify this effort. I have heard that the IEEE may even have a paid service. The idea of typing my way through the applicable elements for the standards is arduously slow. Any suggestions appreciated. IEC produces Test Report Forms, but they are costly - 550 Swiss francs. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Checklist for standards
Have wished for such a checklist myself. Most conformity assessment bodies will provide such a service. Ultimately, informal guidance from agencies that issue the test certs, time using the Emperor's Search Engine, and engineering judgment from people that have been there is what are used by most compliance people. Your first stop would be the list of marking directives (note that there are some New Approach directives that do not require the CE mark), followed by a visit to the list of harmonized standards for that directive. Your next question would be are there are essential requirements that are scoped in a non-marking directive for your particular product. If you are careful to do a 'deep' search, a sanity check could come from looking at declarations published by other companies for similar products. An NB guy once said that the manufacturer shall decide which directives are applicable. Brian -Original Message- From: Rick Busche [mailto:rick.bus...@qnergy.com] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2014 11:07 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Checklist for standards As I pour through the various standards applicable to my product and build the TCF leading to CE Marking, it seems to me that somewhere there should be a checklist of the respective standards to simplify this effort. I have heard that the IEEE may even have a paid service. The idea of typing my way through the applicable elements for the standards is arduously slow. Any suggestions appreciated. Rick - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Checklist for standards
If you are careful to do a 'deep' search, a sanity check could come from looking at declarations published by other companies for similar products. It can also lead you down the path of copying someone else's mistake as well though :) 3rd parties can, and do, provide this type advice. Couple of caveats though: - the 3rd party must fully understand the product, and all the applicable directives - the manufacturer has to clearly explain what the product does (and doesn't do), rather than relying on osmosis or telepathy for transfer of relevant information. Regards Charlie -Original Message- From: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] Sent: 13 October 2014 19:31 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Checklist for standards Have wished for such a checklist myself. Most conformity assessment bodies will provide such a service. Ultimately, informal guidance from agencies that issue the test certs, time using the Emperor's Search Engine, and engineering judgment from people that have been there is what are used by most compliance people. Your first stop would be the list of marking directives (note that there are some New Approach directives that do not require the CE mark), followed by a visit to the list of harmonized standards for that directive. Your next question would be are there are essential requirements that are scoped in a non-marking directive for your particular product. If you are careful to do a 'deep' search, a sanity check could come from looking at declarations published by other companies for similar products. An NB guy once said that the manufacturer shall decide which directives are applicable. Brian -Original Message- From: Rick Busche [mailto:rick.bus...@qnergy.com] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2014 11:07 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Checklist for standards As I pour through the various standards applicable to my product and build the TCF leading to CE Marking, it seems to me that somewhere there should be a checklist of the respective standards to simplify this effort. I have heard that the IEEE may even have a paid service. The idea of typing my way through the applicable elements for the standards is arduously slow. Any suggestions appreciated. Rick - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Checklist for standards
Good point. When providing regulatory requirements and writing my initial test plans it is, nonetheless a starting point. It can also assist in providing an engineering rationale for the TCF where a directive or a specific standard is NOT used a basis for presumption of conformity. For example - looked at another's similarly scoped product that was declared to directives X and Y using standards A B and C because it was intended to be used in conditions 1 2 3 and 4, but my little box was only used per conditions 1 and 3, so excluded standard C that scoped use under conditions 2 and 4, and stated rationale in the Technical File. Have never used a 3d party for this, so dunno if these are 'usable' services. As for osmosis or telepathy, my employer's sales/marketing people believe that these are correct and appropriate methods of information transfer. Brian -Original Message- From: Charlie Blackham [mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2014 11:39 AM To: Brian Oconnell; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: Checklist for standards If you are careful to do a 'deep' search, a sanity check could come from looking at declarations published by other companies for similar products. It can also lead you down the path of copying someone else's mistake as well though :) 3rd parties can, and do, provide this type advice. Couple of caveats though: - the 3rd party must fully understand the product, and all the applicable directives - the manufacturer has to clearly explain what the product does (and doesn't do), rather than relying on osmosis or telepathy for transfer of relevant information. Regards Charlie -Original Message- From: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] Sent: 13 October 2014 19:31 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Checklist for standards Have wished for such a checklist myself. Most conformity assessment bodies will provide such a service. Ultimately, informal guidance from agencies that issue the test certs, time using the Emperor's Search Engine, and engineering judgment from people that have been there is what are used by most compliance people. Your first stop would be the list of marking directives (note that there are some New Approach directives that do not require the CE mark), followed by a visit to the list of harmonized standards for that directive. Your next question would be are there are essential requirements that are scoped in a non-marking directive for your particular product. If you are careful to do a 'deep' search, a sanity check could come from looking at declarations published by other companies for similar products. An NB guy once said that the manufacturer shall decide which directives are applicable. Brian -Original Message- From: Rick Busche [mailto:rick.bus...@qnergy.com] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2014 11:07 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Checklist for standards As I pour through the various standards applicable to my product and build the TCF leading to CE Marking, it seems to me that somewhere there should be a checklist of the respective standards to simplify this effort. I have heard that the IEEE may even have a paid service. The idea of typing my way through the applicable elements for the standards is arduously slow. Any suggestions appreciated. Rick - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
