Re: [PSES] Clearances >30 kHz

2023-07-25 Thread Boštjan Glavič 
Dear Ryan,

Table 10 - input is your temporary overvoltage. Normally 2000Vpk for mains 
voltages up to 250Vac
Table 11 - input is your working voltage
Table 14 - input is your transient voltage - defined by OVC (for OVC II 
2500Vpk).
So table 11 brings you very low value and normally table 10 and 15 are 
dominating.

I hope this helps.

Best regards,
Boštjan



From: Ryan Jazz 
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2023 12:39 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Clearances >30 kHz

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of our organisation. Do not click 
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Dear Members,
Hope you can help me understand the requirement for the clearance needed 
between the bottom PCB of power supply to metal chassis.
Looking up UL 62368-1 Third Edition, and using the 'Voltage up to an including 
peak' of 2000 V for overvoltage category II Table 10 for <30 kHz.
I see the clearance is 1,27 mm.
Going over to Table 11 >30 kHz this clearance value jumps to 13,2 mm.
Am I doing this correctly? Or should I be using the 'working voltage' of the 
power supply, Primary to Earthed Dead Metal 392 Vpk, Primary to Secondary 520 
Vpk.
100-240 Vac, 100 W, 90 kHz switching frequency, AC power supply with a 2x3 inch 
footprint.
End product is, overvoltage category II, pollution degree 2, material group III.
Indoor audio music processor, Class 1.
All guidance would be appreciated.
If this 13,2 mm value is indeed correct, I may need to use an insulator under 
the power supply.
Any recommendations for a UL rated insulator type?
Thank you,
Ryan Jazz
Ryan Jayasinghe
Regulatory Compliance Engineer
rjayasin...@line6.com<mailto:rjayasin...@line6.com>

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous 
Huxley

LINE6
26580 Agoura Road
Calabasas CA 91302
818.575.3711
line6.com
ampeg.com



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Re: [PSES] Clearances >30 kHz

2023-07-25 Thread Scott Aldous 
Hi Ryan,

Clarification at the end of 5.4.2.2 (before the tables) indicates that
which table you use is dependent on the frequency of the associated
circuit. The implication is that you could have some circuits use Table 10
and some circuits use Table 11. It seems appropriate to use Table 11 for
the power supply working voltage. The key question here is whether
temporary overvoltages associated with AC mains circuits have a frequency >
30 kHz or not and so also should use Table 11, or if Table 10 should be
used.

FWIW, here

is a paper from UL from 2010 (so before IEC 62368-1 3rd Edition was
published) that has an example based on the IEC 60664 series standards. You
will notice that the example calculates clearances to withstand transient
overvoltages separately from the clearances to withstand periodic
voltages, taking the highest of the two as the final requirement. Though it
doesn't address temporary overvoltages specifically, the example is
interesting.

On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 3:39 PM Ryan Jazz 
wrote:

> Dear Members,
>
> Hope you can help me understand the requirement for the clearance needed
> between the bottom PCB of power supply to metal chassis.
>
> Looking up UL 62368-1 Third Edition, and using the ‘Voltage up to an
> including peak’ of *2000 V* for overvoltage category II Table 10 for *<30
> kHz*.
>
> I see the clearance is 1,27 mm.
>
> Going over to Table 11 *>30* kHz this clearance value jumps to 13,2 mm.
>
> Am I doing this correctly? Or should I be using the ‘working voltage’ of
> the power supply, Primary to Earthed Dead Metal 392 Vpk, Primary to
> Secondary 520 Vpk.
>
> 100-240 Vac, 100 W, *90 kHz* switching frequency, AC power supply with a
> 2x3 inch footprint.
>
> End product is, overvoltage category II, pollution degree 2, material
> group III.
>
> Indoor audio music processor, Class 1.
>
> All guidance would be appreciated.
>
> If this 13,2 mm value is indeed correct, I may need to use an insulator
> under the power supply.
>
> Any recommendations for a UL rated insulator type?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Ryan Jazz
>
> Ryan Jayasinghe
>
> Regulatory Compliance Engineer
>
> rjayasin...@line6.com
>
>
>
> "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" -
> Aldous Huxley
>
>
>
> LINE6
>
> 26580 Agoura Road
>
> Calabasas CA 91302
>
> 818.575.3711 <(818)%20575-3711>
>
> line6.com
>
> ampeg.com
>
>
> --
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All
> emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/
>
> Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/
> Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net
> Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org
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> --
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>


-- 
Scott Aldous | Regulatory Compliance Manager | scottald...@google.com |
 650-253-1994

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Re: [PSES] Clearances >30 kHz

2023-07-25 Thread John Woodgate 

Remarkable difference between 29.9 kHz and 30.1 kHz!

On 2023-07-25 23:39, Ryan Jazz wrote:


Dear Members,

Hope you can help me understand the requirement for the clearance 
needed between the bottom PCB of power supply to metal chassis.


Looking up UL 62368-1 Third Edition, and using the ‘Voltage up to an 
including peak’ of _2000 V_ for overvoltage category II Table 10 for 
_<30 kHz_.


I see the clearance is 1,27 mm.

Going over to Table 11 _>30_ kHz this clearance value jumps to 13,2 mm.

Am I doing this correctly? Or should I be using the ‘working voltage’ 
of the power supply, Primary to Earthed Dead Metal 392 Vpk, Primary to 
Secondary 520 Vpk.


100-240 Vac, 100 W, _90 kHz_ switching frequency, AC power supply with 
a 2x3 inch footprint.


End product is, overvoltage category II, pollution degree 2, material 
group III.


Indoor audio music processor, Class 1.

All guidance would be appreciated.

If this 13,2 mm value is indeed correct, I may need to use an 
insulator under the power supply.


Any recommendations for a UL rated insulator type?

Thank you,

Ryan Jazz

Ryan Jayasinghe

Regulatory Compliance Engineer

rjayasin...@line6.com

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" 
- Aldous Huxley


LINE6

26580 Agoura Road

Calabasas CA 91302

818.575.3711

line6.com

ampeg.com



This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
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[PSES] Clearances >30 kHz

2023-07-25 Thread Ryan Jazz 
Dear Members,
Hope you can help me understand the requirement for the clearance needed 
between the bottom PCB of power supply to metal chassis.
Looking up UL 62368-1 Third Edition, and using the 'Voltage up to an including 
peak' of 2000 V for overvoltage category II Table 10 for <30 kHz.
I see the clearance is 1,27 mm.
Going over to Table 11 >30 kHz this clearance value jumps to 13,2 mm.
Am I doing this correctly? Or should I be using the 'working voltage' of the 
power supply, Primary to Earthed Dead Metal 392 Vpk, Primary to Secondary 520 
Vpk.
100-240 Vac, 100 W, 90 kHz switching frequency, AC power supply with a 2x3 inch 
footprint.
End product is, overvoltage category II, pollution degree 2, material group III.
Indoor audio music processor, Class 1.
All guidance would be appreciated.
If this 13,2 mm value is indeed correct, I may need to use an insulator under 
the power supply.
Any recommendations for a UL rated insulator type?
Thank you,
Ryan Jazz
Ryan Jayasinghe
Regulatory Compliance Engineer
rjayasin...@line6.com

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous 
Huxley

LINE6
26580 Agoura Road
Calabasas CA 91302
818.575.3711
line6.com
ampeg.com


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