Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

2017-01-30 Thread Scott Xe 
Polarized connectors are not harmonised yet but seems US is following a 
polarized one.  Anyone knows if it is due to this reason?

 

Leakage current is controlled by harmonised safety standard for non-polarized 
connectors.

 

Mains switch on live wire is not mandatory in safety standard.  I encountered 
one occasion during the return analysis that the heater failed in dielectric 
strength test during its product cycle and the customers suffered the 
electrical shock hazard after power off the appliance since the heater was 
connected to live at one end.  Currently the safety standard does not look 
after this area.

 

Scott

 

 

 

 

From: Pete Perkins <peperkin...@cs.com>
Date: Tuesday, 31 January 2017 at 3:32 AM
To: 'Scott Xe' <scott...@gmail.com>, <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: RE: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

 

Scott, Mike et al,

 

   The single pole switch is intended to be in the line side of the 
input power; in the case where the polarity is reversed, the emc components can 
be powered with line voltage on both Line and  Neutral side increasing the 
electric shock touch current and protective conductor current.  

 

Safety standards need to specify testing in both Normal and Reverse polarity to 
ensure that the touch current and/or protective current is still within the 
limits specified under this condition.  

 

   Use of a double pole switch ensures that this doubling of the 
touch current from the emc filter doesn’t happen.  

 

   This same condition occurs with a single fuse in one pole of the 
input circuit.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

p.perk...@ieee.org

 

From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 5:51 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

 

Some national plugs may not be reversible but those countries also widely 
acceptable to 2-pin Europe plugs or 3-pin Schuko plugs that are reversible.

 

The safety standards do not need DPDT switch in compliance.  Even though the 
single pole is not restricted to be on the live wire.  Thus the switch on 
neutral wire is still considered acceptance.

 

Needless to say, single pole switch on live wire and DPDT switch are considered 
the best practice in safety perspective.  As I see less and less this practice 
is implemented in the latest products due to no support from harmonised safety 
standards.

 

Regards,

 

Scott

 

 

From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - <msherma...@comcast.net>
Reply-To: <msherma...@comcast.net>
Date: Sunday, 29 January 2017 at 12:16 AM
To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

 

Because of the lack of polarization on many 2 pin European plugs, I have always 
recommended double pole mains switches on cord connected products for the EU 
market. However, I am not finding support for this in standards such as 
60335-1, 60601-1 or 62368-1.

 

Your thoughts will be appreciated, oh experienced group, on:

--safety issue involved

--standards that do require double pole (sometimes referred to as "all-pole") 
mains switches.

 

Mike Sherman

Graco Inc.

-


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Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

2017-01-30 Thread Richard Nute 
"Interesting that North America code generally has 'polarized' connectors for 
Class II stuff..."

Well... in my experience (and the stuff I have in my home), Class II are both 
polarized and non-polarized.  Think Christmas lights and wall warts and other 
stuff.  I cannot agree to "generally."  

Polarization of Class II isn't logical (except Edison base sockets).  :-)  

Rich

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Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

2017-01-30 Thread Brian O'Connell 
Interesting that North America code generally has 'polarized' connectors for 
Class II stuff, and all ANSI/CSA standards scoped for NFPA70/CSA C22.1 (at 
least ones that for employer's products) require touch/leakage current to be 
measured both L/N normal and L/N reversed.

DP input switch for both class I and II construction is normative for my stuff 
that connects to AC mains.

Brian


From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 11:32 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

Scott, Mike et al,

   The single pole switch is intended to be in the line side of the 
input power; in the case where the polarity is reversed, the emc components can 
be powered with line voltage on both Line and  Neutral side increasing the 
electric shock touch current and protective conductor current.  

   Safety standards need to specify testing in both Normal and Reverse 
polarity to ensure that the touch current and/or protective current is still 
within the limits specified under this condition.  

   Use of a double pole switch ensures that this doubling of the 
touch current from the emc filter doesn’t happen.  

   This same condition occurs with a single fuse in one pole of the 
input circuit.  
 
:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org

From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 5:51 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

Some national plugs may not be reversible but those countries also widely 
acceptable to 2-pin Europe plugs or 3-pin Schuko plugs that are reversible.

The safety standards do not need DPDT switch in compliance.  Even though the 
single pole is not restricted to be on the live wire.  Thus the switch on 
neutral wire is still considered acceptance.

Needless to say, single pole switch on live wire and DPDT switch are considered 
the best practice in safety perspective.  As I see less and less this practice 
is implemented in the latest products due to no support from harmonised safety 
standards.

Regards,

Scott


From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - <msherma...@comcast.net>
Reply-To: <msherma...@comcast.net>
Date: Sunday, 29 January 2017 at 12:16 AM
To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

Because of the lack of polarization on many 2 pin European plugs, I have always 
recommended double pole mains switches on cord connected products for the EU 
market. However, I am not finding support for this in standards such as 
60335-1, 60601-1 or 62368-1.

Your thoughts will be appreciated, oh experienced group, on:
--safety issue involved
--standards that do require double pole (sometimes referred to as "all-pole") 
mains switches.

Mike Sherman
Graco Inc.

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org>

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Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

2017-01-30 Thread Pete Perkins 
Scott, Mike et al,

 

   The single pole switch is intended to be in the line side of the 
input power; in the case where the polarity is reversed, the emc components can 
be powered with line voltage on both Line and  Neutral side increasing the 
electric shock touch current and protective conductor current.  

 

Safety standards need to specify testing in both Normal and Reverse polarity to 
ensure that the touch current and/or protective current is still within the 
limits specified under this condition.  

 

   Use of a double pole switch ensures that this doubling of the 
touch current from the emc filter doesn’t happen.  

 

   This same condition occurs with a single fuse in one pole of the 
input circuit.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 5:51 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

 

Some national plugs may not be reversible but those countries also widely 
acceptable to 2-pin Europe plugs or 3-pin Schuko plugs that are reversible.

 

The safety standards do not need DPDT switch in compliance.  Even though the 
single pole is not restricted to be on the live wire.  Thus the switch on 
neutral wire is still considered acceptance.

 

Needless to say, single pole switch on live wire and DPDT switch are considered 
the best practice in safety perspective.  As I see less and less this practice 
is implemented in the latest products due to no support from harmonised safety 
standards.

 

Regards,

 

Scott

 

 

From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - <msherma...@comcast.net 
<mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> >
Reply-To: <msherma...@comcast.net <mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> >
Date: Sunday, 29 January 2017 at 12:16 AM
To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> >
Subject: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

 

Because of the lack of polarization on many 2 pin European plugs, I have always 
recommended double pole mains switches on cord connected products for the EU 
market. However, I am not finding support for this in standards such as 
60335-1, 60601-1 or 62368-1.

 

Your thoughts will be appreciated, oh experienced group, on:

--safety issue involved

--standards that do require double pole (sometimes referred to as "all-pole") 
mains switches.

 

Mike Sherman

Graco Inc.

-


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Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

2017-01-30 Thread John Woodgate 
I think the point is that the standards committees are well aware of reversible 
plugs and so they put provisions in the standards that make the product safe 
anyway. Even some switched wall-sockets are single-pole.
 
Qualified service technicians are obviously trained to be aware of the issue. 
With modern construction, also, it is difficult to get more than a finger-tip 
on any 'hot spots'.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 1:51 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products
 
Some national plugs may not be reversible but those countries also widely 
acceptable to 2-pin Europe plugs or 3-pin Schuko plugs that are reversible.
 
The safety standards do not need DPDT switch in compliance.  Even though the 
single pole is not restricted to be on the live wire.  Thus the switch on 
neutral wire is still considered acceptance.
 
Needless to say, single pole switch on live wire and DPDT switch are considered 
the best practice in safety perspective.  As I see less and less this practice 
is implemented in the latest products due to no support from harmonised safety 
standards.
 
Regards,
 
Scott
 
 
From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - <msherma...@comcast.net 
<mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> >
Reply-To: <msherma...@comcast.net <mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> >
Date: Sunday, 29 January 2017 at 12:16 AM
To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> >
Subject: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products
 
Because of the lack of polarization on many 2 pin European plugs, I have always 
recommended double pole mains switches on cord connected products for the EU 
market. However, I am not finding support for this in standards such as 
60335-1, 60601-1 or 62368-1.
 
Your thoughts will be appreciated, oh experienced group, on:
--safety issue involved
--standards that do require double pole (sometimes referred to as "all-pole") 
mains switches.
 
Mike Sherman
Graco Inc.
-

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htt

Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

2017-01-30 Thread Scott Xe 
Some national plugs may not be reversible but those countries also widely 
acceptable to 2-pin Europe plugs or 3-pin Schuko plugs that are reversible.

 

The safety standards do not need DPDT switch in compliance.  Even though the 
single pole is not restricted to be on the live wire.  Thus the switch on 
neutral wire is still considered acceptance.

 

Needless to say, single pole switch on live wire and DPDT switch are considered 
the best practice in safety perspective.  As I see less and less this practice 
is implemented in the latest products due to no support from harmonised safety 
standards.

 

Regards,

 

Scott

 

 

From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - <msherma...@comcast.net>
Reply-To: <msherma...@comcast.net>
Date: Sunday, 29 January 2017 at 12:16 AM
To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

 

Because of the lack of polarization on many 2 pin European plugs, I have always 
recommended double pole mains switches on cord connected products for the EU 
market. However, I am not finding support for this in standards such as 
60335-1, 60601-1 or 62368-1.

 

Your thoughts will be appreciated, oh experienced group, on:

--safety issue involved

--standards that do require double pole (sometimes referred to as "all-pole") 
mains switches.

 

Mike Sherman

Graco Inc.

-


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Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

2017-01-28 Thread Richard Nute 
 

 

Hi Mike:

 

The standards require a “disconnect device.”  Many manufacturers of 
cord-connected products define the plug as the disconnect device, which then 
allows a (functional, not a safeguard) single-pole mains switch.  

 

Also, many products do not have a physical mains switch such as computers and 
TVs; the only means for disconnection is the mains plug.  

 

Some European products do have a separate all-pole mains switch as well as an 
“on-off” switch.

 

The safety issue is that of servicing the product where circuits could be live. 
 An all-pole mains switch renders all circuits downstream from the switch as 
dead (safe) and can be serviced while the product is plugged in.  (Many 
standards require minimum spacings across the open contacts of the disconnect 
switch.)

 

Rich

 

 

From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 8:17 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

 

Because of the lack of polarization on many 2 pin European plugs, I have always 
recommended double pole mains switches on cord connected products for the EU 
market. However, I am not finding support for this in standards such as 
60335-1, 60601-1 or 62368-1.

 

Your thoughts will be appreciated, oh experienced group, on:

--safety issue involved

--standards that do require double pole (sometimes referred to as "all-pole") 
mains switches.

 

Mike Sherman

Graco Inc.


-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org>

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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

2017-01-28 Thread ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen 
The general safety requirement for equipment is to be able to be `disconnected” 
; a term for having no hazardous voltage inside. 
A disconnect device is any system within reach of the user that allows to 
disconnect the apparatus form all live voltage. 
That can be double pole switch, but also a  “double pole” plug. Note the remark 
“within reach of user”; it limits the length of the mains wire to 1m50 approx. 
(though not specified in any standard).
Permanently connected equipment requires a disconnect switch (double pole) or a 
mains (wall) connection with an incorporated double pole switch in close 
proximity and suitable warnings. 

Current safety standards address this topic in a non-consistent way, which is a 
shame, as it is the first topic that comes to mind when thinking of protection 
against electric shock.


I personally think that a double pole on/off switch is much more clear, 
definite (does what is suggests)  and thus safer than a single pole.

And the French Schuko with the third (ground) plug cannot be reversed which is 
a real problem with right angled plugs, as in France sockets are placed close 
to ground.


This is clearly a topic that should   be addressed in the mandatory risk 
analysis within the low voltage directive, in addition to  blindly applying the 
standards clauses.

Gert Gremmen
Regards,

Ing.  Gert Gremmen, BSc
 

 
g.grem...@cetest.nl
www.cetest.nl

Kiotoweg 363
3047 BG Rotterdam
T 31(0)104152426
F 31(0)104154953
 
 Before printing, think about the environment.




Van: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Verzonden: zaterdag 28 januari 2017 18:07
Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

Hello Mike,

Single-pole switches are acceptable and typical on plug connected single-phase 
equipment and sometimes on two-phase equipment. IEC 60950-1 has the somewhat 
cryptic marking “Double Pole/Neutral Fusing” as indication to service personnel 
that there may still be live voltage in the equipment even if the switch is 
off. The symbol is even more cryptic to the average person, but the warning is 
specified. The intention for plug connected equipment is that the plug serve as 
the disconnect. Service personnel are to unplug the equipment for servicing to 
remove all power. You may even have equipment that is rated 208/240 V. In 
Europe, it would be plugged into line and neutral whereas in North America, it 
would be plugged into two phases of either a split-phase 120/240 system or two 
phases of a 120/208 three-phase system. In North America, the switch would 
never remove voltage from within the equipment but would interrupt current. 
This is still generally acceptable for plug-connecte!
 d equipment.

Field-wired/permanently connected equipment would require a main disconnect 
that opens all phases. The installer should be aware of the polarity of the 
system and the installer should not reverse phase and neutral during wiring. In 
North America, this allows an equipment disconnect that opens the phases 
without opening neutral. As such, even with field-wired equipment, it is 
permissible to have neutral bypass the main disconnect.

It has been a while since I had to delve deeply into the electrical codes, so I 
may be a little off on the field-wired requirements. I encourage any of our 
esteemed contributors to correct my errors.

Best regards,
Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my 
employer.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 8:32 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

ALL European 2-pin 6 A plugs are reversible, and 3-contact plugs used on the 
Continent are reversible (there are two kinds, one with 2 power pins and 
side-contact for earth (called 'Schuko')  and one with a third pin for earth).

The standards you cite are written so that the product is safe, whichever way 
round the plug is inserted. You do not need a double-pole switch; in fact that 
can be a disadvantage, as it brings the two power conductors close together in 
an assembly with mechanical movement. A short-circuit at some stage in the life 
of the device is not improbable. Also, the insulation can fail, usually with 
smoke and small-scale flame, accompanied by a loud noise.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 4:17 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

Because of the lack of polarization on many 2 pin European plugs, I have always 
recommended double pole mains switches on cord connected products for the EU 
market. However, I am

Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

2017-01-28 Thread Ted Eckert 
Hello Mike,

Single-pole switches are acceptable and typical on plug connected single-phase 
equipment and sometimes on two-phase equipment. IEC 60950-1 has the somewhat 
cryptic marking “Double Pole/Neutral Fusing” as indication to service personnel 
that there may still be live voltage in the equipment even if the switch is 
off. The symbol is even more cryptic to the average person, but the warning is 
specified. The intention for plug connected equipment is that the plug serve as 
the disconnect. Service personnel are to unplug the equipment for servicing to 
remove all power. You may even have equipment that is rated 208/240 V. In 
Europe, it would be plugged into line and neutral whereas in North America, it 
would be plugged into two phases of either a split-phase 120/240 system or two 
phases of a 120/208 three-phase system. In North America, the switch would 
never remove voltage from within the equipment but would interrupt current. 
This is still generally acceptable for plug-connected equipment.

Field-wired/permanently connected equipment would require a main disconnect 
that opens all phases. The installer should be aware of the polarity of the 
system and the installer should not reverse phase and neutral during wiring. In 
North America, this allows an equipment disconnect that opens the phases 
without opening neutral. As such, even with field-wired equipment, it is 
permissible to have neutral bypass the main disconnect.

It has been a while since I had to delve deeply into the electrical codes, so I 
may be a little off on the field-wired requirements. I encourage any of our 
esteemed contributors to correct my errors.

Best regards,
Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my 
employer.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 8:32 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

ALL European 2-pin 6 A plugs are reversible, and 3-contact plugs used on the 
Continent are reversible (there are two kinds, one with 2 power pins and 
side-contact for earth (called 'Schuko')  and one with a third pin for earth).

The standards you cite are written so that the product is safe, whichever way 
round the plug is inserted. You do not need a double-pole switch; in fact that 
can be a disadvantage, as it brings the two power conductors close together in 
an assembly with mechanical movement. A short-circuit at some stage in the life 
of the device is not improbable. Also, the insulation can fail, usually with 
smoke and small-scale flame, accompanied by a loud noise.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk<http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> J M Woodgate and Associates 
Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net]
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 4:17 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

Because of the lack of polarization on many 2 pin European plugs, I have always 
recommended double pole mains switches on cord connected products for the EU 
market. However, I am not finding support for this in standards such as 
60335-1, 60601-1 or 62368-1.

Your thoughts will be appreciated, oh experienced group, on:
--safety issue involved
--standards that do require double pole (sometimes referred to as "all-pole") 
mains switches.

Mike Sherman
Graco Inc.
-


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

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-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.o

Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

2017-01-28 Thread John Woodgate 
Those, too. I didn't say that the DP switch is a safety issue, it's a 
reliability or durability issue. 
 
When IEC/EN 60065 required DP switches on TVs, I pointed out the implications 
of a short-circuit, and proposed that the product's fuse be connected upstream 
of the switch. Although I was 'Head of Audio', not TV, that was adopted, with a 
label 'LIVE FUSE'.
 
With regard to the stored energy in L-N and L-E capacitors, the maximum amount 
is limited in safety standards, not necessarily directly in joules.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk] 
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 4:58 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products
 
FWIW, the same applies to the 10/16A 2-pin plugs, most of which also reversible.
 
However, there are some national exceptions, notably in Denmark, Switzerland & 
Italy which have some unique plug/socket combinations of their own – some of 
those are reversible and some are not.
 
Not sure I agree with there being an inherent safety issue in fitting d/p 
switches to appliances for the reason JW mentions – but there is, or at least 
used sometimes to be, another and rather odd one related to EMC filters = if 
these don’t have L-N bleeder resistors and are fitted between the switch and 
the plug there can be stored energy in the caps after the plug is removed from 
the socket with the switch set to OFF (“O”)! Not enough to give you more than a 
mild electric shock, but still enough to make you “jump” and let go of  the 
appliance – not a good idea if it is somewhat heavy and then falls on your foot 
:D (not a myth – it HAS happened, and with painful consequences!)
 
Same thing can happen if the mains cord set is removable and you then happen to 
touch the pins of the male appliance connector on the appliance!
 
John E Allen 
W. London, UK
 
 
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: 28 January 2017 16:32
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products
 
ALL European 2-pin 6 A plugs are reversible, and 3-contact plugs used on the 
Continent are reversible (there are two kinds, one with 2 power pins and 
side-contact for earth (called 'Schuko')  and one with a third pin for earth).
 
The standards you cite are written so that the product is safe, whichever way 
round the plug is inserted. You do not need a double-pole switch; in fact that 
can be a disadvantage, as it brings the two power conductors close together in 
an assembly with mechanical movement. A short-circuit at some stage in the life 
of the device is not improbable. Also, the insulation can fail, usually with 
smoke and small-scale flame, accompanied by a loud noise.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 4:17 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products
 
Because of the lack of polarization on many 2 pin European plugs, I have always 
recommended double pole mains switches on cord connected products for the EU 
market. However, I am not finding support for this in standards such as 
60335-1, 60601-1 or 62368-1.
 
Your thoughts will be appreciated, oh experienced group, on:
--safety issue involved
--standards that do require double pole (sometimes referred to as "all-pole") 
mains switches.
 
Mike Sherman
Graco Inc.
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
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For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org

Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

2017-01-28 Thread John Allen 
FWIW, the same applies to the 10/16A 2-pin plugs, most of which also reversible.

 

However, there are some national exceptions, notably in Denmark, Switzerland & 
Italy which have some unique plug/socket combinations of their own – some of 
those are reversible and some are not.

 

Not sure I agree with there being an inherent safety issue in fitting d/p 
switches to appliances for the reason JW mentions – but there is, or at least 
used sometimes to be, another and rather odd one related to EMC filters = if 
these don’t have L-N bleeder resistors and are fitted between the switch and 
the plug there can be stored energy in the caps after the plug is removed from 
the socket with the switch set to OFF (“O”)! Not enough to give you more than a 
mild electric shock, but still enough to make you “jump” and let go of  the 
appliance – not a good idea if it is somewhat heavy and then falls on your foot 
:D (not a myth – it HAS happened, and with painful consequences!)

 

Same thing can happen if the mains cord set is removable and you then happen to 
touch the pins of the male appliance connector on the appliance!

 

John E Allen 

W. London, UK

 

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: 28 January 2017 16:32
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

 

ALL European 2-pin 6 A plugs are reversible, and 3-contact plugs used on the 
Continent are reversible (there are two kinds, one with 2 power pins and 
side-contact for earth (called 'Schuko')  and one with a third pin for earth).

 

The standards you cite are written so that the product is safe, whichever way 
round the plug is inserted. You do not need a double-pole switch; in fact that 
can be a disadvantage, as it brings the two power conductors close together in 
an assembly with mechanical movement. A short-circuit at some stage in the life 
of the device is not improbable. Also, the insulation can fail, usually with 
smoke and small-scale flame, accompanied by a loud noise.

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only

 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England

 

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

 

From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 4:17 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

 

Because of the lack of polarization on many 2 pin European plugs, I have always 
recommended double pole mains switches on cord connected products for the EU 
market. However, I am not finding support for this in standards such as 
60335-1, 60601-1 or 62368-1.

 

Your thoughts will be appreciated, oh experienced group, on:

--safety issue involved

--standards that do require double pole (sometimes referred to as "all-pole") 
mains switches.

 

Mike Sherman

Graco Inc.

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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-
--

Re: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

2017-01-28 Thread John Woodgate 
ALL European 2-pin 6 A plugs are reversible, and 3-contact plugs used on the 
Continent are reversible (there are two kinds, one with 2 power pins and 
side-contact for earth (called 'Schuko')  and one with a third pin for earth).
 
The standards you cite are written so that the product is safe, whichever way 
round the plug is inserted. You do not need a double-pole switch; in fact that 
can be a disadvantage, as it brings the two power conductors close together in 
an assembly with mechanical movement. A short-circuit at some stage in the life 
of the device is not improbable. Also, the insulation can fail, usually with 
smoke and small-scale flame, accompanied by a loud noise.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 4:17 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products
 
Because of the lack of polarization on many 2 pin European plugs, I have always 
recommended double pole mains switches on cord connected products for the EU 
market. However, I am not finding support for this in standards such as 
60335-1, 60601-1 or 62368-1.
 
Your thoughts will be appreciated, oh experienced group, on:
--safety issue involved
--standards that do require double pole (sometimes referred to as "all-pole") 
mains switches.
 
Mike Sherman
Graco Inc.
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
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-

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[PSES] Double Pole Mains Switches, Cord Connected Products

2017-01-28 Thread Mike Sherman ----- Original Message ----- 
Because of the lack of polarization on many 2 pin European plugs, I have always 
recommended double pole mains switches on cord connected products for the EU 
market. However, I am not finding support for this in standards such as 
60335-1, 60601-1 or 62368-1. 

Your thoughts will be appreciated, oh experienced group, on: 
--safety issue involved 
--standards that do require double pole (sometimes referred to as "all-pole") 
mains switches. 

Mike Sherman 
Graco Inc. 

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
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