Re: [PSES] F 155 enamel wire

[Scott Xe]

*Hi Peter,*

*Thanks for your advice!  It is interesting to go deeper.*

On 5 January 2018 at 01:28, Pete Perkins  wrote:

> Scott,
>
>
>
> Ted is correct.  You must work to separate the concepts in
> your thinking.  Functional insulation is that insulation required for the
> device to function and has identified insulation properties.  Insulation
> used for safety purposes has a set of properties that ensure the safety
> function is robust; it, too, has insulation properties which will most
> likely be different than those of the functional insulation.
>
   *It is no doubt I agree both points.  As per safety perspective, the
transformer bobbin or motor slot insulator provide proper safety insulation
to the user.  My original question was not talking about it but the
functional insulation, enamel coating property that may result in catching
fire, not electrical hazard.  A weak coating may result in turn-to-turn
shorted and/or melted.  The weak coating could be caused by the improper
manufacturing processes in enamel wire and/or coil inserting into core.
The shorted area will have very high spot temperature.  In the motor, there
is a thermal fuse at 172 degC.  I would like to know if the enamel wire of
F155 is able to withstand 172 degC.  Otherwise, the motor may catch fire
before the fuse ruptures. I could not find these parameters in the spec
sheet.  It may be due to my limited knowledge in this industry and looking
for advice from the experts in this forum.*

> Common usage mixes these two concepts together and the
> average engineer does not identify the difference in his application.
>
> So, for your project, where are the safety insulations
> provided?  Are they the part of the unit where the insulated wire is
> depended upon for the ?  If not, then the usual insulated wire can be used
> but, if it is the safety isolation protecting the user from the electricity
> supply then the usual functionally insulated wire is not adequate and the
> needed protection must be supplied in another way.
>
> TIW is a good solution to this latter problem.Perhaps this clarifies
> the concepts for you and you understand better why TIW is used in SMPS.
>
>
>
> :>) br,  Pete
>
>
>
> Peter E Perkins, PE
>
> Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
>
> PO Box 23427
>
> Tigard, ORe  97281-3427
>
>
>
> 503/452-1201 <(503)%20452-1201>
>
>
>
> p.perk...@ieee.org
>
>
>
> *From:* Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 4, 2018 6:54 AM
>
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] F 155 enamel wire
>
>
>
> Hi Ted,
>
>
>
> TIW is quite commonly used in the transformer of SMPS.  For motor
> windings, enamel wire is still a mainstream material in use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> On 4 January 2018 at 22:42, Ted Eckert  wrote:
>
> Hello Scott,
>
>
>
> The enamel provides functional insulation for the wire allowing the coil
> to work as intended. However, the enamel is not to be relied upon for the
> purposes of safety. Triple insulated wire (TIW) was developed partly to
> address this issue and it is used where there must be basic insulation
> between windings that are overlaid on top of each other.
>
>
>
> Ted Eckert
>
> Microsoft
>
>
>
> The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of
> my employer.
>
>
>
> *From:* Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 4, 2018 5:26 AM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] F 155 enamel wire
>
>
>
> Hi Brian,
>
>
>
> Will look for the stds for understanding the meaning.  It is interesting
> that an enamel coating is not necessarily considered insulation.  If enamel
> coating is not necessarily considered insulation, the coil inductance, Q
> factor, energy dissipation, etc. will be affected.  How does the coil work
> as intended?
>
>
>
> On 4 January 2018 at 02:56, Brian O'Connell 
> wrote:
>
> 0. NEMA MW1000
> 1. UL1446
> 2. winding limits in the standard scoped per the end-use equipment.
> 3. winding limits per the recognized EIS being used.
> 4. an enamel coating is not necessarily considered insulation - reference
> the scoped standards.
>
> Brian
>
> bpymail 2.5.9  test 2
> 
> ===
>
>
> What are the maximum temperature and permissible operating temperature for
> this insulated wire?
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Scott
>
> -
> ---

Re: [PSES] F 155 enamel wire

[Pete Perkins]

Scott,

 

Ted is correct.  You must work to separate the concepts in your 
thinking.  Functional insulation is that insulation required for the device to 
function and has identified insulation properties.  Insulation used for safety 
purposes has a set of properties that ensure the safety function is robust; it, 
too, has insulation properties which will most likely be different than those 
of the functional insulation.  

Common usage mixes these two concepts together and the average 
engineer does not identify the difference in his application.  

So, for your project, where are the safety insulations 
provided?  Are they the part of the unit where the insulated wire is depended 
upon for the ?  If not, then the usual insulated wire can be used but, if it is 
the safety isolation protecting the user from the electricity supply then the 
usual functionally insulated wire is not adequate and the needed protection 
must be supplied in another way.  

TIW is a good solution to this latter problem.Perhaps this clarifies the 
concepts for you and you understand better why TIW is used in SMPS. 

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 6:54 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] F 155 enamel wire

 

Hi Ted,

 

TIW is quite commonly used in the transformer of SMPS.  For motor windings, 
enamel wire is still a mainstream material in use.

 

Regards,

 

Scott

 

On 4 January 2018 at 22:42, Ted Eckert mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com> > wrote:

Hello Scott,

 

The enamel provides functional insulation for the wire allowing the coil to 
work as intended. However, the enamel is not to be relied upon for the purposes 
of safety. Triple insulated wire (TIW) was developed partly to address this 
issue and it is used where there must be basic insulation between windings that 
are overlaid on top of each other.

 

Ted Eckert

Microsoft 

 

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

 

From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com <mailto:scott...@gmail.com> ] 
Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 5:26 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] F 155 enamel wire

 

Hi Brian,

 

Will look for the stds for understanding the meaning.  It is interesting that 
an enamel coating is not necessarily considered insulation.  If enamel coating 
is not necessarily considered insulation, the coil inductance, Q factor, energy 
dissipation, etc. will be affected.  How does the coil work as intended? 

 

On 4 January 2018 at 02:56, Brian O'Connell mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com> > wrote:

0. NEMA MW1000
1. UL1446
2. winding limits in the standard scoped per the end-use equipment.
3. winding limits per the recognized EIS being used.
4. an enamel coating is not necessarily considered insulation - reference the 
scoped standards.

Brian

bpymail 2.5.9  test 2
===


What are the maximum temperature and permissible operating temperature for this 
insulated wire?
 
Thanks and regards,
 
Scott

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Instruction

Re: [PSES] F 155 enamel wire

[Scott Xe]

Hi Ted,

TIW is quite commonly used in the transformer of SMPS.  For motor windings,
enamel wire is still a mainstream material in use.

Regards,

Scott

On 4 January 2018 at 22:42, Ted Eckert  wrote:

> Hello Scott,
>
>
>
> The enamel provides functional insulation for the wire allowing the coil
> to work as intended. However, the enamel is not to be relied upon for the
> purposes of safety. Triple insulated wire (TIW) was developed partly to
> address this issue and it is used where there must be basic insulation
> between windings that are overlaid on top of each other.
>
>
>
> Ted Eckert
>
> Microsoft
>
>
>
> The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of
> my employer.
>
>
>
> *From:* Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 4, 2018 5:26 AM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] F 155 enamel wire
>
>
>
> Hi Brian,
>
>
>
> Will look for the stds for understanding the meaning.  It is interesting
> that an enamel coating is not necessarily considered insulation.  If enamel
> coating is not necessarily considered insulation, the coil inductance, Q
> factor, energy dissipation, etc. will be affected.  How does the coil work
> as intended?
>
>
>
> On 4 January 2018 at 02:56, Brian O'Connell 
> wrote:
>
> 0. NEMA MW1000
> 1. UL1446
> 2. winding limits in the standard scoped per the end-use equipment.
> 3. winding limits per the recognized EIS being used.
> 4. an enamel coating is not necessarily considered insulation - reference
> the scoped standards.
>
> Brian
>
> bpymail 2.5.9  test 2
> 
> ===
>
>
> What are the maximum temperature and permissible operating temperature for
> this insulated wire?
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Scott
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Re: [PSES] F 155 enamel wire

[Ted Eckert]

Hello Scott,

The enamel provides functional insulation for the wire allowing the coil to 
work as intended. However, the enamel is not to be relied upon for the purposes 
of safety. Triple insulated wire (TIW) was developed partly to address this 
issue and it is used where there must be basic insulation between windings that 
are overlaid on top of each other.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 5:26 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] F 155 enamel wire

Hi Brian,

Will look for the stds for understanding the meaning.  It is interesting that 
an enamel coating is not necessarily considered insulation.  If enamel coating 
is not necessarily considered insulation, the coil inductance, Q factor, energy 
dissipation, etc. will be affected.  How does the coil work as intended?

On 4 January 2018 at 02:56, Brian O'Connell 
mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com>> wrote:
0. NEMA MW1000
1. UL1446
2. winding limits in the standard scoped per the end-use equipment.
3. winding limits per the recognized EIS being used.
4. an enamel coating is not necessarily considered insulation - reference the 
scoped standards.

Brian

bpymail 2.5.9  test 2
===

What are the maximum temperature and permissible operating temperature for this 
insulated wire?

Thanks and regards,

Scott

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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Re: [PSES] F 155 enamel wire

[Scott Xe]

Hi Brian,

Will look for the stds for understanding the meaning.  It is interesting
that an enamel coating is not necessarily considered insulation.  If enamel
coating is not necessarily considered insulation, the coil inductance, Q
factor, energy dissipation, etc. will be affected.  How does the coil work
as intended?

On 4 January 2018 at 02:56, Brian O'Connell 
wrote:

> 0. NEMA MW1000
> 1. UL1446
> 2. winding limits in the standard scoped per the end-use equipment.
> 3. winding limits per the recognized EIS being used.
> 4. an enamel coating is not necessarily considered insulation - reference
> the scoped standards.
>
> Brian
>
> bpymail 2.5.9  test 2
> 
> ===
>
> What are the maximum temperature and permissible operating temperature for
> this insulated wire?
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Scott
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
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> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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> David Heald: 
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Re: [PSES] F 155 enamel wire

[Scott Xe]

Thanks for your advice!  Google search does give plenty of info but may not
be the one I want.  Your example consists rich info but there are not the
ones I am looking for.  Probably I did not fully understand those industry
terms and looking for additional guidance.

Regards,

Scott

On 3 January 2018 at 23:48, John Woodgate  wrote:

> Plenty of information found by a Google search. For example:
>
> www.synflex.com/en/produkte_pdf/?id=5&areaid=wickeldraehte
>
> John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
> J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
> Rayleigh, Essex UK
>
> On 2018-01-03 15:33, Scott Xe wrote:
>
> What are the maximum temperature and permissible operating temperature for
> this insulated wire?
>
>
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
>
>
> Scott
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
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Re: [PSES] F 155 enamel wire

[Brian O'Connell]

0. NEMA MW1000
1. UL1446
2. winding limits in the standard scoped per the end-use equipment.
3. winding limits per the recognized EIS being used.
4. an enamel coating is not necessarily considered insulation - reference the 
scoped standards.

Brian

bpymail 2.5.9  test 2
===

What are the maximum temperature and permissible operating temperature for this 
insulated wire?
 
Thanks and regards,
 
Scott

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Re: [PSES] F 155 enamel wire

[John Woodgate]

Plenty of information found by a Google search. For example:

www.synflex.com/en/produkte_pdf/?id=5&areaid=wickeldraehte

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2018-01-03 15:33, Scott Xe wrote:


What are the maximum temperature and permissible operating temperature 
for this insulated wire?


Thanks and regards,

Scott

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[PSES] F 155 enamel wire

[Scott Xe]

What are the maximum temperature and permissible operating temperature for this 
insulated wire?

 

Thanks and regards,

 

Scott


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